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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 7637
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 01:32 pm: | 
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Re: Proposition 8
Writer Jasmyne Cannick's take:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96817462
And comments by Dr. Melissa Harris-Lacewell:
http://princetonprofs.blogspot.com/2008/11/black-folks-and-passage-of-prop-8.htm l |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3267
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 11:11 am: |
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Lots of interesting discussion on this topic around. This is the latest post on this site:
http://www.racialicious.com/2008/11/12/open-letter-resisting-the-racist-blame-ga me-post-prop-8/ |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13043
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 04:56 pm: |
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This article did elicit some feed-back which advanced points I agreed with.
One doesn't have to be homophobic to reject same-sex marriages. Maybe people like me have a problem with how gays want to co-op words. I have no problem if 2 people want to hook up and form a civil union, but I don't accept that one man can be another man's "wife" or that one woman can be another woman's "husband".
Homosexuality is an alternate lifestyle and gays ought to quit demanding special treatment and stop whining about not being able to claim the definition of traditional terms. They even want to tamper with the definition of "old school", re-defining it as being "mean-spirited". IMO |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3268
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 09:26 am: |
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Cynique, would your opinion be the same if homosexuality were not "an alternative lifestyle," but a biological fact of life? It is my sincere belief that it is the latter, not a "choice" that folks can decide against.
Also, I am confused about your terminology. I do not know of any gay couples where one of the males in the couple is "the wife," nor any lesbian couples where one female partner is "the husband." (Note, I am not saying this is not the case with anyone...) As far as I have seen, men call men their husbands, while women call women their wives--or folks use other gender nonspecific terms (e.g., partner, life partner, spouse). |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 837
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 09:41 am: |
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Yvettep
Since the Prop 8 debacle here in Cali, (which I think had more to do with the way it was marketed than any thing else) I have been worndering that if as many believe gay people are born gay, does that preclude the idea of choice? |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3269
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:43 am: |
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Robynmarie, from everything I have read I agree-- there is no question that marketing and outreach of the No campaign could have been much better. (I have also soured on the whole idea of referenda to address these important and complex social issues. But I am only in the beginning stages of learning about this kind of "direct legislation," so I will not comment further on that right now.)
As to the "choice" aspect, that reasoning is just not clear to me so I am honestly interested in Cynique's opinions about that (and others who feel that way). For example, I have heard folks who believe that people are born gay, but still believe that they can and should choose not to "practice" non-heterosexual sex--I guess either through total abstinence or sex with members of the opposite sex. (Interestingly, I never have heard any of these advocates suggest self-pleasuring.) I guess some of the "curing" programs are based on this premise.
I do think there are some folks who experiment with same-gendered sex out of curiosity--so I guess for them this would constitute a "choice" that they could reverse. But I do not believe this is as widespread as some of the breathless news reports and viral emails I have seen seem to suggest. As someone who has had gay friends come out to me, I know that this was not some willy-nilly, spur of the moment fad for them. Instead, it was the result of a long, often painful, complex process of coming to terms with self. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13044
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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Whether gay people are born that way or not doesn't have a bearing on the fact that if they're "out of the closet", they are leading an alternate lifestyle as opposed to a traditional one.
On any number of occasions I have heard gay people refer to their partner as either their husband or wife. Agreed, this is an ambiguous situation. High-profile masculine lesbians such as Ellen DeGeneres, Rosie McDonald and KD Lang all call their partners their wives. I'm inclined to believe that their feminine-looking mates call them their husbands. There is a segment in the gay community where a dicotomy separates the "femmes" from "butches".
If marriage is a coupling of a man and woman, then the word spouse is interchangeable with husband or wife. If the definition of marriage is expanded to include a pairing between 2 people of the same sex then, you have to co-op the word spouse by making it a neutral term.
I am really not that passionate about this issue because I do believe in a "live-and-let-live" approach, but Gays are always so into "drama", always seeking, what amounts to me, as Society's approval rather than its acceptance. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1347
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 12:24 pm: |
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Well Yvette, you've done it again. You seemed to have said it all. I wanted to jump in on this, but before I opened my big mouth (hush Crystal) I thought I should call a couple of people. They are hitting back as I type. First, it would be foolish of us to lump all gays. That would be like "dem niggas"..."those people", feel me. But the people that I've spoken with seem to be say ing the same things. They don't feel it was a choice. All have said they felt they were born that way. I also called a minister friend and he of course hit me with this. He said, although they may feel sexually attracted to the same race, they didn't have to act on it. Now, that's another topic isn't it? I mean, acting on a desire is clouding the issue. At least that was my first thought so I called the daughter of my lady and asked her a few question. Her daughter is openly gay. I wondered how sex fit the equation. She brought it right to the table. She said "just like it fits in a straight person life".
I asked several the questions about the names "husband" and "wives". One said her girl calls her "hersband". There are dominate rolls but I was left with the feeling that they do not call each other husband and wife.
Now again, they did say some in the gay world crossed over because of past bad experiences of being straight. But that's not to say they are in the majority and therefore can not be used as an argurment against "choice". All blacks can't dunk a basketball. All blacks are not "black".
The last text I received said this, "I say different strokes for different folks, if u got to know some gay people u would actually see that they operate just like u they are just the same sex". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13048
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 12:52 pm: |
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I should add that I think certain people are born with gay tendencies and a particular environment can influence whether this tendency manifests itself as a dominant trait. When I think how hard it would be for me to repress my heterosexuality and act gay, then I am sympathetic toward homosexuals who choose not to live a lie. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 681
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 07:10 pm: |
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Hello All,
I guess what gets me about the gay marriage thing is how soon we forget. How many laws did we and our ancestors fought against that was exactly like prop 8. If you take out the word same sex or gay and put in black or colored in its place, all 7 types of HELL would break loose, all over again! It's like ethinic jokes, which I can't stand and don't allow to be told around me, all you have to do is take out the words...Jewish, Polish, Italian, blonde, etc and put in the world black and the joke is still going strong without skipping a beat. Discrimination is discrimination and its wrong. Aint no need to pretty it up, dress it down, or kiss it on the top of its head, it is what it is and that's discrimination.
In my opinion, its very simple. If you don't want like gay marriages, then don't be in one. But, it all comes down to people meddling in other folks bedrooms. And if God don't approve of gay marriages then let Him deal with it, because he's a better judge of character than anybody walking around this earth on two legs is. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2442
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:52 am: |
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I think the reversal of prop b came about in part because if I'm not mistaking gays were organizing to change the language on marriage licenses from "husband" and "wife" to "Party a" and "Party b". I think this incensed those who felt their rights would be infringed upon if a law such as this were passed. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 838
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 02:59 am: |
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Again, it comes down to marketing and idea positioning. The "It's- a civil- rights- issue- just- like -when AAs- and whites- couldn't- marry" argument" is obviously not working. I knew once the Yes on 8 people started talking about how gay marriage would be taught in schools and kids supposedly would be damaged, it was going to win. Some people might have been confused thinking voting "yes" meant, yes to gay marriage, when the opposite was the case.
The No on 8 folks need to come up with something new. I am not sure protesting the Morman cHurch and scapgoating minorities are winning strategies. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13052
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 12:30 pm: |
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The sentiment about same sex marriage is the same among the same people who believe that difference does make a difference. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2443
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2008 - 03:28 pm: |
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I meant prop 8 of course... |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3272
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 09:46 am: |
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More on that initial "70%" figure:
http://www.publicradio.org/columns/kpcc/kpccnewsinbrief/2008/11/african-american s-may-have-sup.html
African-Americans may have supported Prop 8 less than exit poll showed
There is a dispute over the extent to which African-Americans supported Proposition 8, the measure that bans same-sex marriage in California. A national exit poll suggested that 70 percent of blacks in California voted for the measure.
But another poll by the Center for the Study of L.A. found in Los Angeles, just over half of blacks supported Prop 8. Fernando Guerra directs the center at Loyola Marymount University. He told KPCC’s Larry Mantle that he doubts black opposition to the measure was as large as has been reported.
Fernando Guerra: Seventeen-and-a-half percent of all blacks in state of California live and vote in city of L.A. – so neither one of ours could be correct because for us to get only 52 percent – and statewide 70 percent, all blacks outside the city of Los Angeles would have had to support that proposition by 75 percent, so it makes it even higher.”
Guerra is a board member of Southern California Public Radio. His center conducted exit polls last Tuesday in L.A. neighborhoods with large numbers of black voters. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7532
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 10:37 am: |
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African-Americans may have supported Prop 8 less than exit poll showed
(Exactly. Black people are not mean and biased.
White male gays are racist and cowardly.
They know damn well that Black people, 6-10% of the electorate, could not have put that Proposition Over, yet, just like their straight bigoted counterparts, they blame black people for their problems when the White Right is the one that put it to them.
The White Gays get the J.Edgar Hoover Award. |
Jackie
Veteran Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 633
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 09:25 pm: |
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Check out Anti Gay Black List |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13072
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:08 pm: |
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How about commedienne Wanda Sykes coming out of the closet, declaring herself to be a "proud Gay woman". Why is that something to be proud of? Does that imply that being heterosexual is something to be ashamed of?
Still waitin for Queen Latifah to fess up. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3275
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 08:33 am: |
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Why is that something to be proud of?
My assumption is that it is a personal (and possibly political) stance against those who would think it is something to be ashamed of. Just as if I said I was "proud" to be Black--being Black is not something that I work at to achieve. (Well, on a good day!  ) But there are folks and institutions and a whole history that would have me think Blackness was some sort of stigma.
Heterosexuality per se is usually positioned as the norm (as is "Whiteness") so there is no similar stigma or shame attached. It does not have to be either-or--LGBT folks being proud of their identity does not mean other folks cannot be proud of theirs. Of course sexuality generally is a concept that is tied up in all sorts of ambivalence in this country. It really is quite interesting that despite the in-your-face nature of sexual depictions in much of our popular culture, a lot of folks still have a lot of prudishness and puritanical-minded attitudes about sex.
Assuming Ms. Owens is lesbian (or bisexual) that would be a huge boost to many, I think. Of course, I'd still be waiting for the Black Rachel Maddow or Ellen. Not to mention high profile out Black gay men in "unexpected" fields (e.g., sports--currently playing, mainstream hip-hop or R&B, politics, etc.). |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1367
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:25 am: |
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Hello All
I am at this moment listening to fire and desire by Rick James and Tina.
Am proud to say that .
I don't understand. Why does anyone care what others do with "theirs".
Now I am listening to Johnny Gill. The song says "Where did we go wrong, where do we go from here"?
I say let it go. I know plenty of people in the gay community, some are in my family. They don't ask me how, why or when I do what I do and I don't care if they are married or not. Now, if one harms another I might take a look. Damn, good people come in all flavors.
I say, stand on yours and leave others alone!
I don't care if a person is married to a rat. I just hope they are in love and stay together. For most hetersexuals THAT is a problem! |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 464
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 12:01 pm: |
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Finally Mr. Carey saying something that makes sense! I find the argument that same sex marriage is a threat to the sanctity of marriage silly. I think adultery is a much more serious threat but I don't think those church going right-wingers want to/can go there. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10229
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 12:19 pm: |
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Because I FULLY support homosexuals being allowed to marry, I regret the passing of California's Proposition 8. I also, however, regret BLACK Californians (who constitute less than 10% of the CA electorate) being blamed for what happen when those who are MOST to blame is those who allowed Prop 8 to ever get on the CA ballot to begin with.
There is a GOOD reason why this nation is a REPUBLIC (where we ELECT our law makers) and not just a pure Democracy (where all laws are made by the citizenry): Because the average - and often IGNORANT - person is NOT always capable of making the BEST decision for us all.
And here is something us BLACK foks might want to consider: If Pres. Lincoln had made all of his decisions via the majority ruling of the ballot, our blacka$ses might all still be SLAVES. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13074
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 01:22 pm: |
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Thanks for confirming that Rachel Maddow is gay, Yvette. I wondered about this.
I think most of the mainstream opposition to Gays has to do with them being so quick to label as "homophobic", anybody who questions their demands. Just like Blacks use the crutch of "racism" to excuse anything they have no credible rebuttal for, Gays throw up the homophobic defense to discourage a rational dialogue
Gays always want to compare their struggle to the civil rights crusade, but they could always pick and choose what they wanted from conventional society and, unlike Blacks, could lead a secret gay life at their convenience.
It all boils down to the idea that Gays expect straight people to adjust to homosexuality in a society where the majority rules. Gays are the ones who need to adjust to the idea that marriage is a universal heterosexual tradition, and if you are not heterosexual then quit trying to give marriage a make-over in order to satisfy your frenetic homosexual needs. Just be satisfied with civil unions and STFU. 
BTW, the sentiments I have just expressed are grounded in cynicism not contempt. I save my disgust for PETA, those fantical animal rights zealots who need to get their priorities straight and go demonstrate against the lions that kill wildebeest in order to keep from dying of starvation.  |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 841
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 01:33 pm: |
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Abm-
I agree with most of what you say, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
In California any interest group that gets enough signatures on a petition can get a measure on the ballot. Before the election, the polls (so much for polls) showed the ban on gay marriage would fail.
The Yes on 8 forces were busy and the No on 8 folks were caught napping. They did not do enough to convince people of any race to see things their way. Gay marriage proponents are depending on the courts to reject the ban on gay marriage.
Hopefully, the California courts will not intervene again and allow the highest court in the land, The Supreme Court to weigh in.
And btw, why is everyone mad at Cali, when Florida and Arizona passed similar anti-gay marriage laws? And isn't Prez Obama anti-gay marriage?
Hey Jackie-Those kinds of lists make me nervous. They seem vindicitive and counter-productive. I am supposed to patronize or not patronize a business because of their views on gay marriage? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1369
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 02:21 pm: |
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Cynique, are you sure "Gays expect straight people to adjust"? I don't think so. Furthermore, you implied that the majority is right. Lawd, if that was the case we'd be sitting in a cotton field or on the sidelines. Last, you said Gays "always" want to compare and can hide at their convenience. I don't agree and what's your point? The issue today is not about hiding!
Good point Brown Robin. I agree, Jackie's list does seem vindictive and counter-productive.
Ditto ABM's "IGNORANCE"
CRYSTAL, your post would have been just fine without slapping me. You just can't get right. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10230
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 02:50 pm: |
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Robynmarie,
I disagree with ballot legislating because it can encourage a sort of mob mentality betweeen and amongst people, like that which appear to be manifesting between some homosexuals and Blacks in California.
Also, ballot legislating can lead to and inspire a sort of tyranny of the (often racist) majority over the minority.
I think MANY of our problems are best resolved amongst those who are better equipped to study, debate then decide what is best for all. And I think having legislators make these sorts of decisions provide a healthy, helpful and safter buffer between opposing factions of an issue.
I do, however, believe that the passing of Prop 8 will likely prove to be a BOON for supporters of gay marriage. The contrast you draw between how California reacted to the banning of gay marriage and that of Florida and Arizona makes it all the more certain and likely that very SOON the U.S. Supreme Court will be FORCED to decide that banning gays from marrying in ANY part of the country is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
And I look forward to that day. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10231
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 02:55 pm: |
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Robynmarie,
I doubt Obama would be the current president-elect if he OPENLY supported gay marriage.
I think his saying he's against gay marriage is an example of his being 'politically expedient'. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 842
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 03:15 pm: |
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Abm-
I guess I would say "be careful what you wish for." If the current court Scalia, Thomas, etc review the issue, they may well decide against gay marriage, on any number of grounds.
Yes, of course Prez Obama did/said what would get him elected and gays supported him overwhelmingly. Will the gay community pressure him for a change in position? I think Prez Obama might work to reverse the "don't ask, don' tell" policy which could make many people happy-if he does not come out in favor of gay marriage.
The media has exaggerated any conflict between AAs and the gay community. After all the NO on 8 factions are not protesting in black neighborhoods. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13076
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 03:16 pm: |
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What is calling for a custom that is a tradition to be changed in your favor, if it isn't a demand for an adjustment, Carey?
And spare me that old comparison between gays and blacks. Gays have it easy compared to what Blacks had to go through because, as I said, they can and do have the freedom to make a decision in regard to coming out of the closet.
The majority may not be right, but the majority rules. And what is the injustice in being against same-sex marriage? People have just as much right to be against same-sex marriage as Gays have to demand it, especially since civil unions are a viable alternative.
Would y'all be advancing this same argument if brothers and sisters wanted the right to get married?  |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13077
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 03:22 pm: |
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BTW, Carey, just because you don't agree with me, doesn't empower you with the right to set the guidelines in this discussion and question what my point is? The subject is same sex-marriage, an issue which lends itself to different views. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13078
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 03:30 pm: |
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And, finally, the "majority rules" principle is what got the civil rights laws passed. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13079
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 04:12 pm: |
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...and what got Barak Hussein Obama elected to POTUS.  |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10232
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 04:13 pm: |
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Robynmarie,
I am BURSTING to see a CONSTITUTIONALLY valid argument against gay marriage. Though I seriously DOUBT that such exist.
And that's why EVERYTIME this issue goes before a COURT, almost ANY court, gays have been allowed to marry.
Because even the most conservative judge is going to be hardpressed to find a VALID legal prohibition to allowing one of the most basic, fundamental rights and freedoms.
I do not, however, expect Obama to be moved from his position. Because he really does not suffer any political detriment from it.
WTF, this flammin' Perez Hilton character is going to suddenly join up with the GOP??
Hahahahahahaha!!!
And remember: Barack Obama has been a professor of CONSTITUTIONAL Law. He probably know the U.S. Constitution as well as Scalia and probably a lot BETTER than does Scalia's bootlickin' synchophant Clarence Thomas.
I'll bet Obama expect this thing will eventually be decided by the Supreme Court to the benefit of gays. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13080
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 05:13 pm: |
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Yep, if in this Republic the much-maligned "majority" rules and, in the process, a precedent is set for siblings to marry and for masters to marry their pets.  |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13081
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 05:39 pm: |
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It's even more amusing to me that same-sex marriage is an overwhelmingly Liberal Cause, supported by the same right-wing folks who thumb their nose at strait-laced convention and prate about a marriage license just being "a piece of paper", not something needed to legitimize a personal committment. Watta crock. 
This country is in dire straits, on the verge of a monumental implosion, and we have to contend with a segment of people flitting around boo-hooing about mean-spirited black people not supporting the right of Gays to peer into each others eyes and say "I do". Puleeze.
The Gays and the PETA folks need to re-locate on the Isle of Man and practice their special version of diversity. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1370
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 05:45 pm: |
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Cynique wrote:
"The majority may not be right, but the majority rules. And what is the injustice in being against same-sex marriage? People have just as much right to be against same-sex marriage as Gays have to demand it, especially since civil unions are a viable alternative".
Well Cynique, I wanted to get your post right here in front of us so we could take a close look. So, the majority rules...okay. But isn't this the issue...Da Da DUUUHHH. But again, if they are not right......
Yes, you have the right to argue against same-sex marriage. However, it would be nice if those that did such, would at least be couragous enough to state their reasoning.
Cynique Cont....
"BTW, Carey, just because you don't agree with me, doesn't empower you with the right to set the guidelines in this discussion and question what my point is? The subject is same sex-marriage, an issue which lends itself to different views"
Lawdy Lawdy, Come on Cynique, you're drowning. What guidelines did I attempt to set? In my question "What's your point", I was looking for clarification. If it made you wiggle...maybe you didn't have one, that's my point.
I agree, all issues lends itself to different views. Well Cynique, here I go again...what's your point? Really! You seem to be offended when someone questions your view. If you are going to make willy-nilly statements you should expect to be called to the floor. I questioned your ability to talk for Gays. Look at your posts. Look at your use of absolutes filled with limited grains truth or substance.
Let's bring this to the floor. Stop talking for gays and tell us why you think they shouldn't marry. Please, none of that majority this and the blacks that, crap. What does Cynique say? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13082
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 06:05 pm: |
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You may have appointed yourself as the moderator of this discussion, Carey, but I say stuff it, babe. Follow your own advice, and state why same sex people should be allowed to marry, supplying a reason other than the fact that this doesn't offend YOU, a totally pointless explanation.
Suffice to say, that I oppose same sex marriage because I don't think one segment of the population should have to defer to the whims of another. Period. If that doesn't satisfy you, then that's - um, too bad. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1371
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 06:51 pm: |
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Okay Cynique. Looks like we've suffiently beat this up.
I am satified .
Stop calling me babe *lol*.
If you don't I won't stuff it. |
Jackie
Veteran Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 634
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 06:52 pm: |
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Lol. How did it become my list ? I'm just letting ya'll know what's circulating. The list IS public information tho, but I too think it's wrong because if I were psychotic and vindictive, I'd go after the teacher from Huntington Park who donated $10,000 grand to the Yes on 8 campaign ! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13083
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 06:55 pm: |
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Oops, I meant to say "Left-Wing" not "Right-Wing" in my 5:39 PM rant! |
Robynmarie
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Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 843
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 08:49 am: |
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Carey-"Brown Robyn" -hey I like that!
The trouble with what I call "retribution lists" is they are an attempt to stifle freedom of speech. Harassing someone out of a job or trying to close a restaurant (like is happening in West Hollywood) seems petty and mean-spirited-a far cry from the noble Montgomery bus boycott.
These scare tactics will gain sympathy for those being targeted.
Better the no on 8 folks should work through the court system to get what they want. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 844
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 09:00 am: |
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Abm-
One of the arguments the Yes on 8 people used to prevail was that if gay marriage is allowed, it would have a determintal effect on public policy. For eample, gay marriage would have to to be taught in public schools and churhes and other organizations could be fined, ministers arrested, etc if they spoke out against homosexuality. They rose the issue of the separation of church and state.
The Yes on 8 people won beause they framed the debate. Gay marriage advocates need to find a way to sway public opinion if they expect to win. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13084
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 11:29 am: |
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I find your responses on this subject to be very reasonable and informed, Robynmarie.
Obviously, I am not in favor of same-sex marriage on a matter of "principle", but my opposition to it would never get past the negative opinion stage inasmuch as gay-marriage is not something that impacts on my life. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10233
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 02:55 pm: |
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Robynmarie,
It's been a LONG while since I've been in public school. So perhaps you can reacquaint me what goes on there. But I do not EVER recall being taught about marriage in school.
Sure references would be made about, say, historical figures being married where the mentioning of such might be of minor importance. But I do not recall being TAUGHT in a CLASSROOM about what is or isn't marriage and/or who should or should not marry.
Now I certainly agree there should be NO forced teaching of gay marriage in school and there certainly should be NO forced gay marriage ceremonies in churches. But I believe we can properly protect and preserve the integrity of those institutions sans wholesale prohibition of gay marriage.
And I disagree about gays needing to somehow sway public opinion. I maintain gays being allowed to marry is protected within the U.S. Constitution, and I fully expect that this issue will ultimately be decided by the U.S. Supreme Court to the benefit of homosexuals and the reinforcement of freedom for all. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13086
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:12 pm: |
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What ABM describe as being what Gays should be entitled to do is what constitutes a civil union, something they already have the right to have performed.
And is the Supreme Court really empowered to, or inclinded toward, eliminating the definitions of 2 perfectly good words like "husband" and "wife" from the English language?
The cry for same sex marriage is really just begging for icing on the cake. It is a demand for the "trappings" of marriage, - an insistence that hetereosexuals bow to the will of the gay community. |
Robynmarie
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Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 845
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 09:13 pm: |
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Male/female relationships, marriage and family are absolutely discussed in public schools on a daily basis,
obviously in health classes, but in social studies, art, civics, biology, business and literature too.
As a for instance, during the reading of Romeo and Juliet, my students had a long disussion about whether William Shakespeare was gay or not.
Thanks,Cynique
I am from the live and let live camp. If we as society decide gay marriage is the way to go, I am cool with it either way.
I do however feel quite out of the loop in the current environment where folks are demonized and harrassed, not for what they do, but for what they believe. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 10:34 pm: |
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Brown Robyn
I like you. You come to the table with a fair mind and knowledge. This is a great discussion. Keep up the good work and put some black literature in your program/classes *smile*.
I have the sneaky feeling this ain't over *lol* |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10234
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:39 am: |
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Robynmarie,
Certainly school curricula vary. Because, again, I do NOT recall being taught marriage. There certainly were references to such. But no actual, direct TEACHING of it.
And what what "believe" can and SHOULD be problem when what what YOU "believe" negatively effects the chances, opportunities and very LIVES of others. |
Jackie
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Username: Jackie
Post Number: 635
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 11:01 am: |
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Relationships may be discussed from a literary perspective in high school and junior high, BUT the YES ON PROP 8 was misleading and deceptive. Educators were not going to teach PRESCHOOLERS and elementary school children about gay marriage. And to what extent is marriage taught in a health education class ? What is the curriculum ? Students do learn about their bodies I know that. |
Robynmarie
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Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 846
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:39 pm: |
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Abm-
Public schools circa 2008, gay marriage, homosexuality, etc is absolutely being "taught". There are many openly gay students and teachers, counselors, etc. Some campuses have gay/straight alliance clubs, etc.
I have not sat in on a openly gay teacher's class, but I can only assume they would speak about homosexuality in a positive way when the topics arise.
BTW, beliefs never hurt anyone. It is acting on beliefs that is the problem. I don't care what a person thinks/believes as long as they don't try to hurt me. The thought police are working OT, these days.
Jackie-
If the ban on gay marriage is rejected, surely gay marriage from a historical, social science, political, media, language arts and health POV should absolutely be taught. I thought that's what supporters of prop 8 wanted?
If you support prop 8, why wouldn't you want, lessons, literature etc, using two men or two women as examples ie instead of Dick and Jane, it could be Dick and Steve or Jane and Edith? Or so and so has two mommies. What would be wrong with that? |
Yvettep
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Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3277
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:47 pm: |
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Cynique, I think you have hit upon one of the most interesting tensions in all this. "Gay marriage," while appearing to be radical, is actually a pretty conservative movement IMO. Feminists have been pointing out for years the ways in which the institution can be limiting, especially for women, and somewhat unsuited to modern times when folks live so much longer. There are increasing voices within LGBT communities pointing out that marriage equity seems to be about sexual respectability, and benefits those middle/upper middle class and middle aged gay and lesbian elites.
For example, during the same time that the whole Prop 8 protests were going on, an African American transwoman who was suing the police department for harassment was mysteriously found dead. And recent statistics suggest that there has been an upward blip in HIV/AIDS cases among younger and minority gay men.
I think it is legitimate to ask whether having marriage equity as the centerpiece of a progressive LGBT rights agenda will help folks like this--Just as it is legitimate to question mainstream feminism's preoccupation with abortion access. |
Jackie
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Username: Jackie
Post Number: 636
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:09 pm: |
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Robyn: "I have not sat in on a openly gay teacher's class, but I can only assume they would speak about homosexuality in a positive way when the topics arise. "
Any teacher who talks about their personal lives ie. relationships with students (regardless of their sexuality) should be reprimanded. While you're teaching do you discuss examples of your relationship with your significant other to junior/high school students ? Why do people associate "openly gay" especially when it comes to teachers with persuading students to accept their lifestyle or helping students come out of the closet etc. Is there a such thing as "openly straight". Lol !
And when I'm in a group setting with teenagers and they're talking about relationships..I just listen. I'm not a psychologist. I always redirect their questions back to them. I remain neutral.
Proposition 8 was about eliminating the right of same-sex couples to marry. Not about teaching gay marriage to first graders. |
Robynmarie
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Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 847
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:30 am: |
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If/when gay marriage becomes the law of the land, there will be changes in public policy including education K-12.
I thought that was one of the reasons people advocate for gay marriage. I guess I don't understand your objections. |
A_womon
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Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2450
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:01 am: |
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I agree with Jackie, a teacher should never discuss personal relationships with students, no matter what the sexual preference. They should remain neutral.
Gay and Lesbianism is too complex and ambiguous an issue to be taught to developing children, especially when those practicing that lifestyle have not established a definitive base from which to teach.
There isn't a main directive on what makes a person gay. While some say they were born gay, others say that a same sex rape perpetrated against them when they were defenseless, powerless, children caused them to believe they were gay. Later in life, the now adult child says they were never gay but the experience made them "feel" gay.
Others have been in a straight relationship for years, even got married to the opposite sex and then decided they wanted to be in a relationship with the same sex and left their families to pursue the gay lifestyle. Some of these people swear they're not gay, just like being with the same sex.
Still others, remain in straight relationships yet dabble in sexual encounters with people of the same sex.
There are so many different scenarios, how could anyone begin to explain all of this to a child in a classroom setting?
My point is, how can we teach children about something that most adults, even the ones in the gay life don't understand themselves. |
A_womon
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Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2451
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:07 am: |
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Add to that the fad or faze or whatever is going on in schools these days, that it's okay, or even in style to experiment with the same sex and call yourself gay. I don't know about anywhere else, but there has been an explosion in the number of children from elementary to high school claiming to be gay. Who knows if these children really understand their true sexual orientation or if they are just acting out because being gy is more acceptable and it's hip to be gay? |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2453
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:15 am: |
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The other thing is, gays are always comparing their struggle to blacks, but sticking strictly to the teaching in classroom thing, when have you ever seen a mixed race couple used as an example in the classroom or seen a mixed race couple in a text book? |
Yvettep
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Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3278
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:00 am: |
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I agree with Jackie, a teacher should never discuss personal relationships with students, no matter what the sexual preference.
That is just unrealistic. I think many are assuming that teachers would have long monologues about their bedroom lives. That is not the point at all.
It is not at all uncommon for teachers to mention in passing that they saw this movie with their spouse and kids over the weekend, or note to a kid with a jersey on that some sports team is their husband's favorite, too. Further teachers often come to after school events, fundraisers and the like with their significant others. Folks in gay and lesbian relationships should feel no more pressure to hide these normal aspects of themselves than anyone else, IMO. |
Jackie
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Username: Jackie
Post Number: 637
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 10:28 am: |
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Yvettep, when I wrote "discuss personal relationships", I didn't mean something as simple as what your partner/spouse thought of a movie, or if they liked oreo cookie ice cream or not.
I'm talking about "personal" issues. To me that's what it seems people assume if a teacher is "openly gay" that students will be exposed to the detailed life of a gay man or woman, but especially man. But now we're off the topic...the issue is about Prop 8 and the right for same sex to marry. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10237
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:29 pm: |
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First, I KNOW we all have had some teachers we felt or knew were gay. Some were even quite open about it (perhaps some even a tad TOO open about it).
And, amazingly, the vast majority of us 'survived' the experience to live entirely STRAIGHT lives.
(Imagine THAT.)
So I do NOT see how legalizing gay marriage will translate into schools having to do clit-lickin' The L-Word seminars and sheht.
Some of yawl are just too dayam paranoid.
Now, if we do discover some foks proselytizing homosexuality to our kids, we should just discredit and fire their a$ses and just keep on stepping.
But the prospective antic a few renegade queer teachers should not result in our denying MOST other decent, fair and law-abiding homosexuals from being able to live and do what the rest of us take for granted. |
Robynmarie
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Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 848
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:41 pm: |
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This is a great disussion. It is the kind of dialogue that should have taken place BEFORE Prop 8 passed. Too bad, the two sides refused to meet to see where they had common ground. There was not one public debate on Prop 8. Not one.
So now the Yes on 8 people are gloating (and raising money for future battles) and the No on 8 forces are seeking retribtuion and asking the courts to overthrow the results of an election.
Yvettep-You are absolutely right. Teachers are people too and they bring all their prejuidices and values to the classroom. IMO, that is when the true learning takes place- for better or worse.
A-womon, why would teaching same sex marriage be any more complicated than teaching hetrosexual marriage to youngsters? They are many children from families with gay parents who already know what is all about.
Jackie-if kids are educated there would be no fear of a man who happens to be gay at school or anywhere else.
I thought that's the kind of acceptance the gay community is fighting for? |
Jackie
Veteran Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 638
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:40 pm: |
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Robyn,I'm not referring to the kid's fear or perspective, I'm talking about the fears of the adult straight & religious community, the parents,etc. |
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