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Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1559
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 01:16 pm: | 
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Sam Langford: Boxing’s Greatest Uncrowned Champion
Book Review by Kam Williams
“In January of 1944, the New York Herald Tribune published ‘The Forgotten Man’… a story about Sam Langford, aka ‘The Boston Tar Baby,’ one of boxing’s greatest fighters… It related how only 18 years after his remarkable career Sam had completely disappeared from mainstream society and ended up blind and penniless.
Over 60 years later, Langford is once again relatively unknown among the general population… Why is that the case? How could a man, who was arguably one of the greatest pound-for-pound fighters of all time and feared by men such as Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey, be overlooked?
To answer that question one must consider how difficult it was for a black-skinned man to make his way in American society during the early 20th Century." (Excerpted from the Introduction) |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 08:33 pm: |
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Troy, this was a very interesting post. I thought I was true fight fan, I could argue with the best of them but I've never heard of Sam Langford. The mention of him reminds me of the movie Samuel Jackson headlined. It was about a fighter many had thought was dead. Anyway, I think I'll call my uncle on this one. He's 83 and I'll run his name by him. 'The Boston Tar Baby" huh? I wonder if that had anything to do with his disappearance  . I can't help but think what this did for the women in his life. Now I could see the effects of walking up to a lady and saying, "hey baby, I am the Brown Bomber" but "Hey baby, I am The Boston Tar Baby"? I would think some women wouldn't mind a few "bombs" being dropped on them but "Tar", come on, burning hot oil is one thang but "Tar" *lol*! |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1564
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2008 - 09:57 pm: |
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Carey I was wondering what you thought about this fighter.
Let us know what you uncle thinks.
Langford was also known as the "The Boston Bone Crusher"
I see I forgot to post the link to Kam's review: http://reviews.aalbc.com/sam_langford.htm
Wikipedia's entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Langford |
Rondall
Moderator
Username: Rondall
Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 01:05 pm: |
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Troy
I am a fan of boxing and I have not only heard of Sam Langford but there was an webiste around 5 years ago that had streaming video of old fights uncluding one of his (website has since been removed altogether).
Langford was built like a short version of a pro running back. Very thick and well defined. Imagine Mike Tyson way before the melt down. He was fast and extremely powerful. He would stalk an opponent and to just set up a combination but more like a flurry of power punches.
I still would not list him in the top ten best fighters. The only justification I can see in that was Langsford was a very prolific fighter (200*), but he was not one of the best.
In fact I would place Harry Willis, another fellow Black prize fighter way above Langsford's skills. Willis fought Langsford ~22 times according to the Wiki article. And by records (I can look to confirm) Willis probably beat him at least 20 of those fights. Add this into the fact that Langsford fought more no name/no shame fighters than the usual fighter.
I am not a boxing historian nor would I call myself an aficionado, but there is some fluff to the byline of: Boxing’s Greatest Uncrowned Champion.
This reminds of a video I got that I would highly recommend. I will introduce it in a different post.
Again forgive the typos but I was multi-tasking at work when I wrote this.. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 01:35 pm: |
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I called my uncle and asked him about Sam Langsford. I am not trying to throw salt on the book or on Sam but my uncle also said he'd heard of him but his name couldn't conjure up any images of one of the best. Now of course the book is subjective and it's possible the writer thought he was. Hey, it did say "uncrowned". But after reading Rondall's post I too wonder what's going on.
If I have typos it's not because I was multi-tasking, it's because I know no better . |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12942
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 04:26 pm: |
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Didn't Wikipedia say that black heavyweight champion, Jack Johnson, was a thorn in Langford's side? Johnson didn't think matches between the 2 of them would generate a big gate, and he wasn't sure whether he could score a decisive victory over Langford so he never agreed to fight him. This snub figured in denying Langford a shot at fame and fortune.
Langford's tragic story is just one of many sad sagas in the world of sports, as dramatized by "The Express", a movie which opened in theaters this week-end. This film is the bio of running back, Ernie Davis, and is the story of how, back in the 1960s, he became the first black to win the Heisman Trophy, much to the chagrin of the plethora of bigots who populated the sports world back then.
Ernie Davis was a player on a par with Jim Brown but although he, too, was drafted by the Cleveland Browns, he never competed professionally because he couldn't beat the leukemia which claimed his life at age 23. His courageous battle both against cancer and Jim Crowism is a story that kinda faded into oblivion until now. But, - of course, I remember him quite vividly and was greatly saddened by his death because among, other things, he was fione! |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 05:29 pm: |
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Cynique I literarlly just posted a review of The Express: http://reviews.aalbc.com/the_express.htm
So you have vivid memories of Ernie Davis - wow. That is fascinating. I graduated from Syracuse University almost 25 years ago and even then, Davis' reputation has reached mythic proportions.
He lead SU to it's only National Championshiop several years before I was born. SU recently erected a status of Ernie Davis on campus and are naming a new dormintory after him.
As great as Jim Brown was as a football player. Many say Ernie was even better. Can you image Brown and Davis on the same team?
Rondall it would be interesting to know if another boxer beat Langford ~20 out of 22 times. That would then imply that that boxer is better than Langford and should be ranked in the top 10 as well.
Besides the Lansford did lose or draw almost 30% of his fights after reading that stat I was a little disappointed. but the numbers in isolation don't mean much -- especially if those loses came late in his career when he was fighting half blind. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1283
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 05:34 pm: |
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Cynique, you've brought up an interesting thought. Last night I was watching an interview with the managing editor of Root.com. Many questions were focused on the purpose and direction of the site. One of the questions centered on the vast obituary section of the site.
Much like the stories of Langford and Ernie Davis, our stories are frequently not told until after the deaths of the subjects. We know why and the editor ( I think owner as well), vividly and concisely told the interviewer why our stories never reach the mass market. Along those lines she said sites such as AALBC and others were needed and flourishing. She pointed to an article about Whitfield, a black song writer that many blacks are familiar with if only from the songs that made them tap their feet. He was a Motown legend. Unlike Issac Hayes who's name crossed over, Whitfield's, for the most part, remained in the hearts and minds of his people.
Now I don't know anything about Ernie Davis being fione, I'll take your word for that but he was a good football player . |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 24
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 06:04 pm: |
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Ernie Davis was amazingly gifted. A definite gamebreaker (I've been fortunate enough to see game film.) and was as courageous as his talent.
Unfortunately, He never played a down in the NFL. Art Modell, new owner of the Cleveland Browns had envisioned him and Jim Brown (Remember him? The Greatest NFL player ever, and quite possibly the greatest LACROSSE player ever.) in the same backfield. However upon finishing his collegiate career, Ernie Davis was diagonsed with leukemia, and died in 1963.
As a huge boxing fan, I knew about the Sam Langford Biography, but was unsure of the publication date. From lightweight to heavy weight, he fought em' all. And won almost all of his matches. (Harry Willis 22 times, Joe Gans, Sam McVey, Battling Jim Johnson & Joe Jeannette.) After losing to Jack Johnson, the future Heavyweight champ, because he couldn't meet a rematch fee, Sam Langford was never granted one.
Damn shame he died penniless and blind. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12946
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2008 - 10:59 pm: |
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Another impressive but little-remembered boxer was Canada Lee. When I read the biography of this distinguished black actor and musician I was surprised to learn that in his younger days he fought professionally and held titles. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1285
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 12:56 am: |
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Since boxing is on the board and there appears to be a few boxing fans present I think it's time I make a couple of prediction on upcoming fights. There has been a few white fighters that has managed to hold a few belts over a number of years and I think one might have come to the end of his road. They managed to steer clear of any real treats throughout their careers and although I think they could lose their titles they again have taken on challengers that are over the hill and for the most part have seen their best days. Okay, Roy JOnes Jr. is going to give Calzage a run for his money. Roy's comeback has included an impressive win over Trinadad. Yeah, Tito has never recovered from his other loses but Roy seemed to have regained some of his lost luster and could be one of Calzage's most formiddable foes.
I could be a sucker for old guys. I just watch Sugar Shane Moseley crunch Mayorga. A tremendous left hook with one second remaining closed the show.I was never a Roy Jones Jr. fan but I can't go with Calzage.
Oscar and Pacquiao is a hard one to pick. I believe they will be fighting in a weight class that is closer to Oscar's natural weight. Pacquiao has moved up several weight divisions over the last few years. I'll go with Oscar D. on this one.
Hopkins and Pavlik is a dude match from the jump. Hopkins was my boy before his first fight with Taylor but the old man is a approaching his 95th birthday and I think his time has been gone. I even think Winky Wright got robbed. |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 09:22 am: |
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Trinidad was never the same after Hopkins systematically took him apart in 2001. Brilliant Fight plan. In the early 90's up until the De La Hoya fight in 1999.
Hopkins-Pavlik? I really am scared that Hopkins may end up like Evander Holyfield, in that he doesn't know when enough is enough. No, Winky Wright did not get robbed against B-hop. HE LOST. While my heart wants Hopkins to rediscover the fountain of youth, I can see Pavlik wearing him down with youth and power. Pavlik by late TKO.
De la Hoya - Pacquiao reminds me of 1993, when Pernell Whitaker moved up 12 lbs from lightweight to challenge Buddy McGirt for the welterweight title at MSG. (Whitaker was my favorite of the generation.)But I look at De La Hoya's early fights against guys who moved up to fight him and how easy he made the bouts look. While 35, look for the same. DE LA HOYA by easy Decision, because he walks through Pacqiao's best punch.
Roy Jones - Calzaghe? You know, five to seven years ago, Roy Jones dismantles him. The hand speed is still there, but the legs aren't. And yet, he is a live underdog against Calzaghe?
The question is HOW BAD DOES HE WANT IT? If Roy Shows up determined, this could be close. My guess is that he has enough to pull this upset off. |
Rondall
Moderator
Username: Rondall
Post Number: 167
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 11:23 am: |
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Best fighter unorthodox fighter I have ever seen: Roy Jones Jr.
His speed let him get away with things that no one could. His was also extraordinairly powerful. I loved watching him fight.
With all that being said...he need to retire, for good (pun intended). His time has passed and he has given Antonio Tarver a place in history that he does not really deserve.
nuff said |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 05:04 pm: |
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Okay fellows, it seems like we have some real fight fans up in here.
I threw a little test on the board by saying Winky Wright got robbed. That actually was an opinion of my son which I didn't argee with. I was testing the water to see if maybe I'd missed something. You know the old "dad" doesn't know everything. Winky Wright ain't going to knock out anybody. He's always been in the shadows and he will remain there. He's made a little money but he'll never find a place in the best of anything. I've never been a fan of counter punchers. You can't name me one counter puncher that fits in the top 25. Ken Norton could be considered in that group with his crossing type defense. But Ken Norton...who was he??? Please don't say he beat Ali in the fight some say he won. I can vividly remember watching that fight with bets on the line. All the brothers were hollering and passing money before the decision was anounced. I had my money on Ali. Talking about some upset brothers. Of course I got the last laugh. I can talk a little mess and my jaws still hurt from all the s**t I was talking.
Antonio Tarver is a slug and that brings me to another point. Roy Jones Jr. is the luckiest man in boxing. Quick, names 3 fighters of quality that he beat....quick. He ran from Hopkins for years. Yeah, they fought earlier in their careers but Roy didn't want any of Hopkins in his prime. Are you still trying to scratch together a few name? Calzaghe is much like Roy in that they both have made a career of fighting a bunch of bums. Sure, one can argue that they fought the "best" but what does that really say. The questions remains, who did they fight!? Roy doesn't need his legs to fight him. As fight fans we can make a list of fighters that had great punches. For instance if we had to compile a list of great left hookers, Joe Frazier would probably be somewhere near the top. Sugar Ray Robinson might be the best pound for pound fighter. His power, speed and toughness would be hard to argue otherwise. Many people may not agree but Larry Holmes had a nice jab. The man held the belt for several years and some don't want to give it up. Mike Tyson had a tremendous uppercut. He was a student of the game. HIs off angle shots were punches few could duplicate. Now I am talking to real fight fans, not your annoucer driven fan. Truth be told, Sugar Ray L. had nothing for "The Hands Of Stone". Yeah, I said it, Roberto Duran was the best of that period. But man, was Arron Pryor a deamon or what. Anyway, Calzage has nothing, Roy is old and everyone will get paid. But remember TARVOR knocked out Roy Jones. If the fix ain't on they might just tell both of them to go home.
Let me stop, I can talk boxing all day long.
Pacquiao vs De La Hoya: De La Hoya has fought the best, all comers! Aside from that questionable punch from Hopkins, he's never been down. I am sure I don't need to list all his fights. All the best fighters of the period would be on the list and he's still fighting. Now that's not necessarily a good thang for a fighter, the fact that he's still fighting. Pacquiao is nobodies slouch! yet if history serves us well, the bigger man usually comes out on top. But check this out and I think you might agree. Larry Holmes got ROBBED in his fight with Micheal Spinks...pssst ROBBED! Anyway, even Evander was a pumped up Lightheavy but let me get back. Pacquiao will be bringing something DeLa Hoya has never really seen. He throws punches from outside. He sort of slams his way inside. Now this boy is fast, I doubt De La Hoya can match his speed, considering his old legs. De La Hoya, in some ways could be considered a counter puncher. Pacquiao loves to move and break the zone while throwing wide angled shots. It's Youth vs The Old Man... Weight vs Speed. This could be a draw.
Hopkins could get stopped BUT the man has that Philly pride running through his vains. It's Old School against Slow Fool... this is a dude match, get plenty of popcorn and keep your TV guide very near. The worlds biggest loser might bring more cheers. |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 06:14 pm: |
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Ali may have fought his bravest fight in NORTON I - the one he lost. his jaw was broke in Round one, and to take punches with a broken jaw? Man. I saw ALI-NORTON II & III and thought he won both, but barely. Norton was a match-up problem for Ali, yet got blasted out via KO by Foreman, Shavers and Gerry Cooney. Go Figure.
Would love to have seen Norton-Fraizer.
Counterpunchers, not in top 25? How about a defensive ace. Sweet Pea Whitaker was like Gale Sayers running a football. Moves you just couldn't teach. He Got Robbed so much by the judges (Ramirez I -1989, Chavez Draw - 1993, De la Hoya - 1997) it wasn't even funny. Counterpunching brilliance also. Imagine if he had a punch.
Roy Jones fought NOBODY. NOBODY. Okay, B-Hop when young, gave him problems. De La Hoya got knocked down Hard by Quartey, Whitaker on a flash, and some bum in his early career. While he fought everybody (I gotta give him props for that) in his early career he fought guys like John John Molina and Jesse James Lejia, past their prime fighters that Moved up in weight to fight him. Chavez was washed up, and he lost to Whitaker. Got a gift there. He couldn't hit him. Ran from Trinidad after seven rounds of pure excellence, lost a great one to Mosley, another to him when Sugar Shane took the juice, got a gift against Felix Strum. Damn, he's had more ups and downs than a yo-yo. I really think he beats Pacquiao.
Everybody knocks out Mayorga. Except Vargas and Vernon Forrest. Just thought I saw that.
Best pure puncher I ever saw was Julian Jackson. Trinidad was a helluva finsher (what he did to Yory Boy Campas in 1993 was classic), as well as another overrated fighter, MIKE TYSON. Stand up to him and you beat him. Chavez and Mike McCallum beat up bodies.
Sugar Ray Leonard had major heart, but him and "the Hands Of Stone" ducked Aaron Pryor like he had leprosy.
Best Fight Ever? TAYLOR-CHAVEZ I. Two more seconds could have changed Meldrick Taylor's whole life. tragic, yet beautiful. In actuality, that's the definition of the Sweet Science. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 - 07:33 pm: |
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Oooooh, I see you are a true fight fan.
I don't know if Leonard and "The Hands Of Stone" ducked Aaron Pryor. He wasn't in their weight-class and he wasn't a superstar, money called that shot.
I have to agree that Taylor-Chavez was a great fight. Imo, the fight was stopped too soon and his life did change forever. I saw him fight after that one and it was sad. But I still have to go with Pryor-Arguelle(sp) or even Gotti-Ward. As of late I might cast my vote for Corrales-Luis Castillo or even Casameyor. Please excuse my spelling, it's always been a problem of mine and these names are coming off the top of my head.
I will agree with your take on Mike Tyson although Razor Ruddick stepped to him.
We can't down play Mayorga. He got dropped by some good fighters. He even put his hands by his side and let several fighter take shots at his head. He did that against Forrest, Spinks and Trinidad.
You mentioned Yory Boy Campus, I believe he was something like 1,000 - 0 coming into that fight. He was the man... or some thought he was...my hand is not raised. Yory Boy became the poster child for bobble-head dolls. Trinidad nearly broke his neck.
I have to comment on Jullian Jackson. He had great skills but after McCallum blasted him out in the 1st round he was never the same. That was a great itme for boxing in that class. I believe Nigel Benn was in that group?
Norton-Frazier...nope. Norton never really showed me anything. I can't think of what he might have brought to the table.
De La Hoya did get a gift in his fight with Strum. Tuneup fights seldom go the way the fighter plan and this was no exception.
I wouldn't call the shots he took from Quartey as hard shots. I think they were more of the sit down variety. Not the button shots that leave no doubt about it's destruction. That was a good fight, I think Quartey dropped him in a early round but even though De La Hoya needed something big in the last round, I'd have to watch that again to say who won the fight.
It's funny you mentioned Lejia, was he ever anything other than a stepping stone. Didn't I see him fight Camacho...THE SON!?
Last, we've seen many fighters get robbed in the ring but one that sticks in my mind is Antafurmo-Hagler. Hagler beat the boy bloody. I would have given Hagler all but maybe...MAYBE 2 rounds. |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 01:21 am: |
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Yo, Carey, Let me know when you're having a fight party. We can break this stuff down better than Lampley and Merchant. Max Kellerman, Alex Wallau and Al Berstein will give us a run for our money. Screw Ferdie Pacheco. He's washed up. Who's that guy for KINGVISION who always calls the fight AFTER it happened? For the life of me, I can't think of his name, but we're better than him too.
Lejia Fought Azumah Nelson Three times (Draw, Loss, Win), but has been knocked out as a name opponent for e'ry body else. Azumah Nelson bridged a gap, didn't he? He fought the late great Salvador Sanchez in the Mexican's last fight, and fought Sweet Pea, and Lejia. I remember him blowing out Jeff Fenech, I mean Really blowing him out in that second fight.
Antafurmo-Hagler was Highway Robbery. I remember being 12 years old saying that. Hagler got jerked around by the sport.
Damn, How could I forget Castillo-Corrales I. Or how about... Check This out... Michael Carbajal-Humberto Gonzales I. or Marco Antonio Barrera-Erik Morales I & II? Barkley-Hearns I. Hearns-Hagler? Arturo Gatti was action personified, but took way too many punches. Would not be surprised if twenty years from now...Fill that one in Partner.
Kevin Kelley, Junior Jones... Where are you. My greatest fight moment was when "The Flushing Flash" fought Naseem Hamad (Boxing's version of the overhyped Monie Love Album - You'll get that when you get home.) at MSG. I was there that night, drinking beers and arguing with British fans. At Fights end, (Hamed 4th round KO) some big Brit picked me up and wrapped me in a Britsh flag.
Now you see why I write novels for ZANE? - LOL
How about what Mike McCallum did to Donald Curry? Layed him out. Chris Eubank gave nigel Benn all types of problems. Gerald McClellan...damn.
Man, I thought I was the only one that noticed that in the Quartey-De La Hoya fight. Ike Needed to move more and throw more combinations. That's why he lost... Stiff Plodding left jab, then right. Had he moved, and angles...
Did Fernando Vargas ever win a big fight? talk to Me.. He beat Quartey once, and won a disputed decision over Winky, but... Get back to me once he gets off the canvas... again.
Hector Camacho Jr. had no discipline. His father was never the same after Edwin Rosario punked him in the 6th rounds of their fight at MSG. Put on his track shoes for the rest of his life.
Either Vinny Pazienza was mob-owned, or the most overhyped fighter ever to get world title shots ever. Still can't figure it out.
What Felix Trinidad did to Yory Boy Campos that night was ATTEMPTED MURDER. (giggle) I remember that night. Wasn't that also the night Chavez Got dropped by Frankie Randall? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1299
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 08:20 am: |
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Coop, man, you've done my heart proud, a real fight fan. I've questioned why I post and you brought it home!
So many memories in one short post, where do I start. I wanted to comment on Sweet Pea but I have to lay that to the side and hit your other brain busters. Not that I don't have a lot to say about him but man!
I love it when someone talks from experience and how can I top your MSG story, now that's great memories. I too have a few fight night stories. Here's one that sticks in my mind. Before Ultimate Fighting, X-box and multi-channel television, boxing and fight night were big deals. We used to rotate the event amongst a few close friends, I caught Bowe-Holyfield. The night was filled with food, drink and well....here it goes. I had about 75 people that night, women included. The guys would bring along their wives and girl friends, it was that kind of party. The beverages keep the night lively but to add another bit of excitement I offered a buy-in. For five dollars a person could draw a card from the deck of 52 and that card would designate the fighter you had and the round in which he had to win the fight for them to win the pot. The cards went like hotcakes and some were even resold for twice the amount to others that just couldn't get with Bowe or Holyfield. Man, can you imagine drawing the Jack Of Clubs, which meant you had Bowe by a knockout in the 11th round and you were a Holyfield fan!? Coop listen, the night was wild. Not to mention the little crap game that was going on down in the basement *lol*. Plus I had a heavy bag down there. As you know everyone thinks they can throw a punch until they have to. That Congac told them they were king shyt but their wives and girlfriends soon found out they wasn't very tough at all. In fact, the women lead the chorus of laughs that followed ol'boys pitty-pats on the bag *lol*. Coop, let me tell you, the fight was great, the food was good and the people were wonderful, it was a great night.
Man, you had to open with those mee-ly mouth boxing analysts. They should be called "boxing talkers" not analysts. Where do I start...LARRY MERCHANT! I'd like to call him a short fat hatin' punk but I can't do that...can I? Before Mayweather took his thang to another level, I remember Merchant saying Floyd wasn't worth the 3-5 million contract that HBO had signed with im. Now mind you, Larry is getting paid for "talking" about boxing and couldn't find a kind word to say about Mayweather and Floyd was good, Merchant didn't have to skip over words but couldn't get by his hate. I wonder how Merchant feels now. Every time he opens his mouth they should run a clip of Floyd holding up a belt or two and cashing a check with about 7 zeros on it.
My son says he doesn't have to look in Max Kellerman's closet to see what he is. I don't necessarily agree with him but it must be hard for those guys to be in a business that oftens witnesses a huge tuff black man beating the crap out of a white guy and then try to keep "everyone" happy. If I had to choose my favorite it would be Al Berstein. You had to love Howard Cosell. Flirty Pa-Check-K-O was a joke!
Vinny?: You figured it out on both accords. But he did bring bits of excitement. But man, you didn't mention BOOM BOOM.
Kevin Kelly...ahhh, nope, next. Junior Jones had it all...well, not all but he would be dominating a fight and then run out of something and get waxed, I liked him.
PRINCE Naseem Hameed! Now that boy did it right. Put on a great show, got paid and got the hell out of the game. When he came in on that flying carpet I damn near died. But look, I couldn't have been ran into the turnbuckel they way he was in his last fight and not pulled out my best Mike Tyson and bit ol'boy or kicked him in the nuts or sumtin'. Not on national TV would I have let that man do me like that and not got something back. When they told the story they would have to tell it all. I gave Hameed the nickname of rubberband man. I can't remember who he was fighting but he took a shot to the head and it seemed as if his head hit the canvas and his feet never left the ground, AND he won the fight! My man Prince, great show, short career but he got paid.
Donald Curry never really brought it. He had great skills, he was an excellent boxer but it seemed as if he was in the wrong business. He lacked that Gorilla tuffness. Not that one needs to be crazy in the ring but I am sure you know what I mean.
Vargus..."were talking practice"...
Mike McCallum, The Body Snatcher...did he really Snatch Bodies? I don't have many memories of him. I mean I remember him fighting but who's gym was he in? Who was in his corner?
You threw me the ball and I think I am going to drop it...."I wouldn't be surprised if twenty years from now"......?
How could I have forgot Barrera-Morales I & II...!! Barrera would go on to get his, I never really liked him. My son says I have a thang against Mexican fighter...I don't know. I did like Carlos Monzon although he wasn't Mexican.
Oh, we had a boy that had a belt...Micheal Nunn. Yeah, I know, that brings up the boxer that had the female promotor? He KO'd Mike at home in front of all his peeps. A 10 to 1 underdog had Mike sneakin' in the back door of the club. Yep, mike got caughtup in a drug deal and is now in the fed joint.
I just saw a kid fight the other night, he's an Olympic Champion, 2004? I think he's from Cuba? You might know who I am talking about? Anyway, he's in trouble. If you haven't seen him fight you'd better hurry. I doubt he will be around very long. He's something like 12-0 but he must have been fighting a bunch of Blutos right after Popeye smashed his head.
Let me hit you with these and stop this love fest. Lennox Lewis....Davie Moore. |
Carey
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Username: Carey
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 05-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 11:58 am: |
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Coop, I forgot to ask you about your homeboy Zab Judah which also leads me to Kosta Tzsu? |
Rondall
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Username: Rondall
Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:08 pm: |
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Sorry about being not so quick, I have been busy at work:
Roy Jones beat:
Virgil Hill
James Toney
Bernard Hopkins (say whatever)
John Ruiz
More than three...not legends but good fighters (quality)
h8rs |
Wfcooper
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Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2007
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:26 pm: |
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Why stop, Carey? I'm about to drop a post-debate post, but your comments had me so excited I was jumping out my seat!!! My younger brother Jeff (Bert Sugar II) and I either watch the big PPV packages together or commence with our pre-fight, Round 1, 6, 9, 12, post-fight phone calls when I'm on book-tours. You think we break it down? Man, he really should be on TV. You should too.
Thank goodness for You Tube and ESPN CLASSIC. Just a footnote, dude.
Man, I wanna come to one of your fight parties. I'll fly to Iowa, if I have to. That "King of The World" punching bag contest had me rolling. Yo, let me know when, and I'm there. I'm serious. I'll schedule a signing, meet with a book club, and talk shop with the fellas over cognac.
Davey Moore? Duran took him apart (who didn't Duran Take apart? Hearns. That 2nd round KO was blazing! Remember when Hearns made Pipino Cuevas stagger like a drunk? - Also 2nd round.)Tragic end, though.
Hearns, Milton McCrory, Mark Breland... All Kronk Fighters were offensively great, but with one weakness... They all were left open for the LEFT HOOK. McCrory got smoked by Curry, Breland by Marlon Starling and Aaron Davis, Hearns lost all his career-defining fights (though Hearns won the second Leonard Fight - My heart rooted for him to stay on his feet in that last round. The first fight was simply amazing... Hearns lighting Sugar's face up for five rounds and then...BOOM...Leonard had em dead...Hearns weathered the storm, then role reversal... boxing by the HIT MAN... Boxing? Hit Man? Oxymoron?... Angelo dundee pleading to a mouse-eyed Sugar.. You're Blowin' it, son, You're blowin' it son...Sugar reaches into the well, and pulls out a big right hand in the 13th... Hold on, Tommy, just make it to the end, and you win by decision...Oh well, someone's "0" had to go...Emmanuel Stewart crying at the post-fight conference...Two champions, one winner... the best fight of the 80's.)
Junior Jones took Barrera out (twice), but never seemed to have gas for anyone else. Kennedy McKinney, someone? Guess you're right about the Prince...That sucka. LOL
Second-to-NUNN... Twelveth Round...James Toney...Just coast, dammit...Made James Toney's career. Never the same, either...Doing time for the crime.. It's like a jungle sometimes, makes me wonder how I keep from going unda...
Howard Cosell was the best EVER. EVER. Read that book about Him and Ali... Used to have it, but I lost it...The title escapes me now, but it breaks their union down. Like Fred and Ginger, they're timeless.
Boom-Boom: You are so on target..WOW.
Futch, I think, was in McCallum's corna. Eddie Futch. Al Certo. Chap Blackburn. Cus D'Amato. When fighter fought. Too many letters in the alphabet soup today.
Four emotional fights for me, that made me cry:
Taylor-Chavez I (Damn... That ending. But a point in the 10th where Taylor's hand speed just blistered Chavez. Just give him those last two seconds... The fight call was PERFECT that night. Lou Duva went crazy, as did I. Tragic, yet beautiful, perfect definition of the SweeT Science.),
Taylor-Espana (The one on the Lewis-Ruddock undercard where you just knew it was over for Meldrick. His life was over as he knew it as well. That Philadelphia heart was his undoing. I try to remember how he dismantled Buddy McGirt. Why Fight Terry Norris, Why?)
Tyson-Douglas (There was NO WAY Buster was losing. His mother died, son's mother was battling a deadly ailment, and the woman that was dating him left him. Emotional hurricane. I laugh when they focus on Tyson being out-of shape. He fought the textbook heavyweight fight versus a bully that night. Stiff Jab, Crashing hooks. And Courage from GOD. Getting off the canvas to win. That five-punch combo in the tenth starting with that uppercut was the prettiest combo I have ever seen. Too bad he just layed an egg versus Holyfield.)
Foreman-Moorer (22 years of a psychological burden was exorcised with a single one-two. Ali mind screwed him in Zaire -1974, so much to the point that he lost to Jimmy Young before "seeing The light and retiring. - RON LYLE BRAWL - Nuff Said- That whole fight, I just knew something would happen, especially when he wore those same trunks he wore vs The Greatest. And the end, after taking all those punches through nine rounds to get to the one-two. And when he knelt in Prayer, I lost it. WOW.)
Proudest Fight moments?
ALI-TERRELL - Before my time, but you just don't disrespect someone the way Ernie Did Here. What's My Name! What's My Name! Don't tug on Superman's Cape, Spit Into the wind, Pull The Mask off the Ole Lone Ranger, and... Jim Croce sang it Post-haste.
Whitaker-Chavez: The Whole Alamodome that Friday night booed him in 1993 when he came out to Naught By Nature. They booed me at a Latin Bar in Park Slope Brroklyn that night, even spilled beer on my suit. While concealing my anger with a smile, much like Barack Obama during that farce of a debate last night, something burned within me. I knew it was Me and Sweet Pea against a whole country. Those first two rounds, when Julio was filled with emotion scared me, and had a lot of people shouting "No Corazon - No Heart) But sometime during the third round, when Sweet Pea landed a stiif double jab, It got real quiet in the place. By rounds end, I screamed "he can't Hit em... Chavez Keeps missing..." The tide had turned for the rest of the way.
In the seventh round, when Sweet Pea caught him against the ropes, I was mocking the whole bar by saying "79-0, 79-0", Chavez record at the time. There was a crunching uppercut in the eighth when I yelled "Whoops, There it Is..." By Fights end, when Sweet Pea clenched a first to the crowd with about twenty seconds left, I screamed "Yeah, Baby!!!" to a stunned bar. Ordering three shots of Tequila, I felt vindicated.
Minutes later, I was inconsolable when Micky Vann, Franz Marti, and Jack Woodruff stole My moment away. A Freakin Draw! Could not believe they tarnished one of the truly great exhibitions of boxing away. Still makes me mad that Chavez wouldn't fight him again. Just like De La Hoya. Punks.)
Lennox Lewis - Very Underrated. Very. That last fight stands with me, because the end was coming for Vitali Klitscko and I knew If Lewis could war off weariness and land just one more stiff right...he won on Stoppage, and had he fought and won against the chandlier chinned Wladamir (joke that they're champs today), he would rank even higher.
Your take on Jack Johnson? |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2007
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 12:32 pm: |
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Roy Jones can change his legacy if he wins this one. Big Time. Virgil Hill was around, what, forever? James Toney oput on 18 pounds the day of that fight. Give B-Hop a fight now, beat him again, and we're cool. Glenwood Johnson Knocked him out. Glenwood Johnson.
Zab Judah? Like the Minnesota Vikings and Buffalo Bills in that He can't win the big ones. He gave Mayweather Problems for half the fight, but had a case of Junior Jones-itis (what is it with Brooklyn Fighters Running out of gas? Tyson, Jones and Judah.)Not a big Judah Fan.
I do like Paul Williams though. |
Carey
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Username: Carey
Post Number: 1301
Registered: 05-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 03:39 pm: |
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See Coop, we have started something. My son has been calling me on the constant every since I told him about our exchanges. It was over at his house that I saw Mayorga get blasted by Sugar Shane. I was sitting around in my PJ's and he called and said they were getting it on. I didn't even wash my behind, I threw on something and zipped over to his house. My son and I sound much like you and your brother, we don't miss the big ones; ladies, distance, mommas cookin', nothing gets in the way. My son can go, he hits hard and always wants to punch on me during the fights. That's cool but ol'dads arms ain't like they used to be. That bag I was telling you about down in the basement, that boy put a dent in it, the house would rattle. I know you know what I am talking about when I say people get all hyped during fights. You are a blessed man to have come out of that bar in 1993, damn you have a pair or you just had to look tough (in a suit too). Anyway, my son and I now bet punches. Yeah, kid stuff huh *lol*. So yeah, your brother, my son, that would be a great evening. We'd have to talk about the bet thang. How big is your brother? Can he throw a short hook or a nice crisp right hand. We can't do the older guys against the younger ones, we'd get waxed...flattened *smile*.
Man, stop with the teary eye moments, I am on my second box of Kleenex...Ali-Holmes!
But let me holler at Rondall while I punch his ticket...VIOD. Rondall, you're a whip on that poetry thang but man, come on, RUIZ! Virgil Hill was okay but dude! Nunn made Toney and I was never a big fan of his. Take Hill out of the hills of North Dakota and you have a mound. I guess I did say "quality", we'd have to look real hard at the definition. Scratch Ruiz right NOW.
Dang Coop, you have me on my heels, a writer and a boxing fan. Boy, you are working me! Zane huh, yeah, we've brought in a few writers, nothing big, a small light evening. Can you play the Sax as well? If you can I am on the phone right now *lol*.
But let me get back to your last post.
Man, I was thinking the same thang while watching the Sugar Ray and Hearns fight. When Hearns raised his hands after the 10th round...? I said it ain't over and the tide turned. Wam...Wacko, the end was near, Leonard was in his a**. The Kronk gym turned out blast masters by the ton but they cared little for defense and they seldom knew how to clinch or they didn't think it was cool to do so. Do you remember a guy named Alonzo Barber, I think that was his name. He was tough but....
Jab Judah was my son's boy. I think he's finally had to let Jab go. We don't even want to talk about tears. They say men don't cry but....
The Klitsko brothers: I don't know Coop. I think it's that European style that makes me run from those guys. Not that they have any great skills but they are BIG men. Now I've never been hit by a man that big and I doubt many others have as well so I have to move my judgement to their records. Okay, that doesn't say much but the younger one did just beat Peters. I can't call this one. Lewis may be underrated but he too falls into the catagory of big men without a defining talent. Lewis fought like a scared rabbit. Emanuel Lewis would be dying in the corner trying to get the boy to fight.
Your take on Sweet Pea and Chavez reminds me of Trinadad and Yory Boy. Campus was 56-0 and it was fought on a huge Mexican holiday. Trinidad pissed in the punch.
Some say the first three rounds of the Hearns-Hagler fight were the best in boxing. It's been my opinion that it was over after the first round. Hearns was throwing Monster Shots but Hagler was never really being hit. Hagler never really gets his due, he was a great fighter, he just came along at the wrong time. He didn't bring enough of a show. Even his moniker was lacking, come on, "Marvelous", sounds like a diamond, although he was rough *wink*.
Yes sir, that combo Douglas lite up Tyson with was text book for sure!
Btw, I had Kasidia in his last fight. The boy from down under that got shocked by Casameyor. Well, my arm is still throbbing.
If I had to pick a corner man I'd have to start with Bundini Brown. I don't know if he knew anything about boxing but for pump and pure passion he'd be my first pick. Emanuel knows his stuff and Eddie Futch did too but I question Stewards ability to train his fighters and if his fighter actually listen to him during a fight. Now Old George foreman could of had Tinker Bell in his corner, he wasn't trying to listen to anyone or anything. I am still looking for that One-Two he dropped on Michael Moorer. It must have been something, laid Moorer smooth out. It was a short little sumtin'.
Sugar Ray Leonard made Angleo Dundee. I can't think of another fighter that he championed.
Teddy Atlas talks a good game (to the cameras). His approach is too slow. His boys could be getting murdered in there and he breaks in with some Zen mess. I wouldn't let Lou Duva hold my spit bucket. Now both of the Mayweather brothers bring something to the table. The Mexican Destroyer was a hard hitting menace in his day. The Black Mombu crunched guys. If you had both of the brothers in your corner a man would be working with something.
I agree, SweatPea got robbed on several occasions. His style just wasn't for the masses.
What was that boys name that came out of upper Washington State? I think he won a title but got lost in the suffle of the Spinks brothers and the rest of that Olympic team. I could look it up but that wouldn't be any fun, that's fake knowledge, anyone can do that.
Paul Williams, my verdict is still out on him.
Do I dare tell my son of our latest exchanges. I told him of our earlier posts and he's been beating me up on the phone every since. Talk boxing to him and he stops breathing and can't stop talking. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2007
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 16, 2008 - 11:57 pm: |
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Listen, Carey, We have so much in common with this fighting/sports thing: let's do it. I would love to see if I could schedule something around a fight weekend. I'll look into the Iowa bookstores and Book Clubs. It'd Be amazing!!! I'll see if my brother is available, He'd love it too. Tell your son hey for me. We can do this.
Man, I'm only 5'10" 185. I'm a basketball player and sport enthusiast (I'm a trivia junkie that used to Destroy Rich Eisen - NFL NETWORK - In High School. That's why he's on the NFL Network.), not a fighter. Can try to hit a punching bag, but I'd probably have brittle hands.
Back to da Sweet Science Convo...
Don't the Kronk Fighters legacy remind you of the NBA Denver Nuggests and Air Coryell Chargers (NFL) of the 1980's? They'd tried to outpunch you with very little defense. Must have been those yellow trunks with red lettering.
How right you are about Hagler... Boy he sure could take a punch. They jerked him so bad in that Sugar Ray fight, but in truth, it shouldn't even been that close. You're supposed knock him out.
Other than Ali and Sugar ray, for the life of me I'm wondering about Angelo Dundee. We forgot Georgie Benton, the ace behind the 1984 Olympic class. His best work came with Sweet Pea.
Here's a great knockout for you...Simon Brown KO 4 of Terry Norris. Knocked him out so bad that in the rematch, Norris punked out and ran. A good punk out, because he won, but a punk out nonetheless.
Vincent Pettiway's KO of Simon Brown was brutal. That image of Brown still throwing punches while on his back...
Kostya Tszui? You know, I have mixed feelings about him. Dogged Judah, beat up Shamba Mitchell 2x, KO'd and old Chavez, but lost to Vince Phillips (!?!). VINCE PHILLIPS.
Fighter I enjoyed seeing get beat up because he didn't belong in the ring award goes to: DERRICK "SMOKE" GAINER. Take a bow for da people.
Roy Jones fought too many bums on HBO to be considered a great fighter. Never took chances. But He can change his legacy a tad with a win over Calgazhe.
You are so right about Ted Atlas... Michael Moorer. Emanuael Stweard, too.
How about this one for you: Ricardo Lopez. Retired underfeated in the flyweights, man.
Roger was not only a mexican destroyer, but he knocked my boy Sweet Pea on his arse...Hard. Gave Chavez all he could handle in two fights. They're great trainers. Love what they did with Floyd vs Corrales. Total Domination.
Floyd Mayweather needed to fight Cotto and Margarito. He beats Cotto easily. Margarito would have checked that chin, fo' sho...
Man that Felix Trinidad TKO over Yory Boy was sumthin' wasn't it? Damn Near broke his neck. What he did to Vargas and Maurice Blocker was brutal too. But B-Hop had a thing for him, boooooyyyeeeee! Masterful Strategy.
Got one for ya, Carey... Danny "Little Red" Lopez... Bazooka Gomez, and Esteban De Jesus. |
Cmoyle
First Time Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2008
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 10:22 pm: |
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Carey, Troy, & Rondall, a buddy of mine forwarded me this thread and asked if I'd seen it. I wrote the Sam Langford book. I urge you guys to investigate his career further and decide for yourself.
No offense, but the 83 year old uncle would have been born one year before Langford had the last fight of his career. There's way too much ground for me to cover concerning his greatness in this post, but I assure you there is no fluff in the secondary part of my books title 'Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion'. I challenge anyone to produce a greater uncrowned champion than Sam Langford.
This 5' 7" dynamo started out as a lightweight and ultimately fought and defeated many of the greatest heavyweights of his era. Really never any more than an overblown light heavyweight, Sam knocked out some of the biggest heavyweights in game, Harry Wills included. In fact, I believe a strong case could be made for Langford as the greatest pound for pound figher in boxing's history. It's true that Wills had the better of their long series of fights, but it's also true that Sam was on the downside of his long career by the time he started fighting the younger and MUCH bigger Wills.
But don't take my word for it, here's some quotes from some of his contemporaries:
Jack Dempsey: "The hell I feared no man. There was one man, he was even smaller than I, I wouldn't fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford."
Jack Johnson: "Sam Langford was the toughest little son of a ••••• that ever lived."
Jack Johnson: "I don't want to fight that little black smoke. He's got a chance to win against anyone in the world. I'm the first black champion and I'm going to be the last."
Frank Erne (former lightweight champion): "I'd pick him to knock out Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano. When he was not under wraps, he was a ring marvel."
Founding Ring magazine editor, Nat Fleischer, rated the little man the 7th greatest heavyweight of all time. (Fleischer saw both Langford and Wills fight)
Harry Wills: "He was a real professional, the kind of fighter you'd like to be but know that no matter how hard you try you'll never make it. Same never made a mistake, he always held command and when he knocked me out in New Orleans in 1916, I thought I'd been killed."
Harry Wills: "...the hardest blows any of them ever landed on me were like a slap in the face from a woman compared to those bone-crushing wallops of Langford. They seemed to go right through you."
And as for the quality of his competition, well, he fought the best of those during his era that were willing to face him, and he had over 300 recorded professional fights. By the way, he fought the last one-third of his career blind in one eye.
Like I said fellas, sorry for making this sound like a commercial for my book, but do yourself a favor and learn more about this great fighter. If you don't believe me, ask some of the serious boxing guys you'll find on websites like www.cyberboxingzone.com, www.eastsideboxing.com, or www.boxrec.com |
Cmoyle
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Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2008
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 10:24 pm: |
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Biography crowns Langford
Nova Scotia boxer considered by many to be one of best of all time, although world championship title eluded him
By CHARLES SAUNDERS
Halifax Herald Sun. Apr 27 - 2008
More than 60 years after his death, Sam Langford’s name and reputation continue to command respect. Although he never held a world championship, Langford — a native of Weymouth Falls — is considered one of the greatest boxers of all time. He was a small man who loomed larger than life.
Virtually every book on the history of boxing mentions him, sometimes at length. His name even appears in works of fiction, such as Budd Schulberg’s famous novel The Harder They Fall.
Yet for all the praise he garnered for his prowess in the ring, the full story of Langford, the man, remained untold for far too long. It’s as though his life is an incomplete jigsaw puzzle.
For years, that puzzle has been crying out to be put together. Now, Clay Moyle, a boxing historian from Edgewood, Wash., has answered that call.
As a longtime fan of pugilism, Moyle’s interest was piqued by the pieces he saw of Langford’s life.
"The more I read about him, the more convinced I became that he was one of the greatest boxers of all time," Moyle says.
"Under different circumstances, he might have become a world champion of at least four, if not five, different weight categories. It was a grave injustice that he didn’t get the opportunity.
"I was shocked that a Sam Langford biography didn’t exist, and decided I would try to write his story."
After five years of research and writing, Moyle has given us that biography: Sam Langford: Boxing’s Greatest Uncrowned Champion.
Weighing in at nearly 500 pages (429), the book takes us on a journey through a tumultuous life filled with triumph and tragedy, accomplishment and disappointment, joy and pain. The reader accompanies Langford from his boyhood in Weymouth Falls to his death in Boston, with all the epic events in between.
Standing five foot seven inches tall, Langford began his career as a 130-pound teenager. At the end of his 23-year career, his weight topped 200 — not all of it muscle. His peak weight was 170 to 180 — just about all muscle and arms.Whatever his weight, Langford was known as a clever ring strategist — and also a murderous puncher.
Moyle quotes Harry Wills, a heavyweight who fought Langford more than 20 times: "When he hit you in the body, you’d kind of look around half expecting to see his glove sticking out of your back. When he hit you on the chin — well, when that happened, you didn’t think at all until they brought you back to life again."
Wills wasn’t the only opponent Langford fought multiple times. But his name will always be linked with a man he fought only once: Jack Johnson, the first black fighter to win the heavyweight championship of the world.
Two years before Johnson made history in 1908, he met Langford in a 15-round bout at Chelsea, Mass. The record shows that Johnson won by decision. Legends say that even though he was outweighed by 30 to 40 pounds, Langford knocked Johnson down. The decision was not disputed, even by Langford. But whether or not Langford put Johnson on the canvas has been a bone of contention for decades.
Moyle’s definitive account of that fight — including an encounter a few days later that was supposed to be an exhibition but turned into a brawl — leans toward the conclusion that Langford did not drop Johnson. Yet Johnson himself, according to one of the autobiographies Moyle cites, says Langford did knock him down.
Of the hundreds of bouts Langford fought, this one was the most significant. Had Langford won, he, not Johnson, might have gone on to win the heavyweight title. Once Johnson got the title, he made sure Langford would never get the chance to take it away from him.
Moyle chronicles Langford’s frustrating chase of Johnson: signed contracts unfulfilled; demands for more money than Langford’s manager, Joe Woodman, could raise; claims by Johnson that there was no money to be made with two black men fighting for the title — in the end, the quest was fruitless.
Although Langford could have sunk into bitterness, Moyle is convinced he didn’t; that Langford’s upbeat personality was genuine, not a facade.
Langford was certainly a genuine wit, who could have held his own with Muhammad Ali when it came to gab. This scene from the lead-up to a bout Langford had with John Lester Johnson is but one example: Upon entering the arena, Sam encountered Johnson stretched out on a rubbing table with a handler fanning him and he inquired:
"What are you doing, boy?"
"Just taking a little nap," replied Johnson.
"Why now? You’re gonna be takin’ one in that ring," replied Sam.
John Lester Johnson didn’t last a round.
Suppose fate had dealt Langford different cards, and he had beaten Johnson to the heavyweight title. Johnson’s reign proved controversial, and it set back race relations in America. Could Langford have changed history?
"I don’t think white America would have been happy with any black heavyweight champion during that time," says Moyle.
"But Sam was certainly more popular with whites as a whole, and I believe would have been much less objectionable than Johnson was. I also wonder if it wouldn’t have taken so long for a black man to get another chance at the title after Johnson lost it to Jess Willard, if Sam had been the champion instead of Johnson."
Playing the cards he had, Langford stayed in the game too long. He kept fighting even when he was blind and out-of-shape. After finally quitting the ring, he descended into poverty and infirmity. Moyle paints a bleak, but accurate, picture of Langford’s later years. Still, Sam was hardly the first fighter to go broke, and he bore his hardships with dignity and humour.
Although the book concentrates on Langford’s ring exploits, it also provides glimpses of his family life that complete his story.
Sam Langford was an uncrowned champion. But Moyle’s biography crowns Langford with glory.
Charles Saunders is the author of Sweat and Soul: The Saga of Black Boxers from the Halifax Forum to Caesars Palace. |
Cmoyle
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Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2008
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 10:25 pm: |
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SecondsOut.com
By Thomas Hauser (First reviews a book by Adam Pollack about Bob Fitzsimmons, concluding with:
“Regardless, the book is an interesting slice of boxing history” and then goes on to review the Langford book as follows:
“The same can be said of Clay Moyle’s biography, Sam Langford: Boxing’s Greatest Uncrowned Champion (Bennett & Hastings).
In a career that saw hundreds of recorded fights from 1902 through 1926, Langford fought men like Joe Gans (who he defeated at age seventeen), Stanley Ketchel (they drew in a six-round non-title bout), and Jack Johnson (Langford lost a 15-round decision before Johnson became champion).
Barrel-chested and only 5-feet 7-inches tall, Langford was at his best as a middleweight. But the exigencies of boxing dictated that he fight heavyweights Joe Jeannette (on 14 occasions), Sam McVea (13), and Harry Wills (16) a total of 43 times.
“He was a real professional,” Wills said when their wars were done. “The kind of fighter you’d like to be but know that, no matter how hard you try, you’ll never make it. When Sam hit you in the body, you’d kind of look around half expecting to see his glove sticking out of your back. When he hit you on the chin, you didn’t think at all until they brought you back to life. When he knocked me out in New Orleans, I thought I’d been killed
Because of the color barrier, Langford never had the opportunity to etch his name in history alongside those of boxing’s other gloved champions. But John L. Sullivan, who had drawn the color line during his own reign, declared in 1909, “Sam Langford is the world’s best. He can whip them all right now, one after the other.”
Jack Johnson opined, “Sam Langford was the toughest little son of a ••••• that ever lived.” Once Johnson became champion, he refused to fight Langford again.
And Jack Dempsey conceded in his autobiography, “The hell I feared no man. There was one man I wouldn’t fight because I knew he would flatten me. I was afraid of Sam Langford.”
Moyle’s writing is cliché’-ridden at times (“Sam Edgar Langford entered the world fists clenched on March 4, 1886”) and far from lyrical. But the book fleshes out Langford’s ring record. A few of his fights (most notably the battles against Gans and Ketchel) are nicely told. There’s horror in the recounting of Langford continuing to fight while blind in one eye and suffering from a cataract in the other. And there’s a moving retelling of the unsuccessful effort to restore Langford’s eyesight as well as the poverty that enveloped him as he grew older.
At the book’s end, one has to agree with Moyle’s conclusion, “There was certainly no other boxer during this period who deserved a chance to fight for a world championship more than Sam Langford.”
It’s a shame he never got the chance.” |
Cmoyle
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Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2008
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 - 10:35 pm: |
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THE RING – FALL 2008 THE BIBLE OF BOXING
"Boxing Bookshelf
What sort of fighter could train on gin and pork chops, but was still good enough to beat the best lightweight of the day, draw with the best welterweight and middleweight of the day, beat one of the best light heavyweights of the day, and strike such fear among the heavyweights of the era that the champion would avoid him?
If you answered Sam Langford, give yourself a long, stinky cigar, the sort favored by Langford, and congratulate yourself. Langford beat Joe Gans, held Barbados Joe Walcott and Stanley Ketchel even, whipped Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, and got the best of most heavyweights during the Jack Johnson era. He fought Johnson too, Johnson won, but saw enough to know he didn't want a rematch.
Much of Clay Moyle's fine, new book, Sam Langford, Boxing's Greatest Uncrowned Champion (Bennett & Hastings, 429 pages, hardcover, $29.95), pulls together many of the myths and facts about Langford, and makes his worldwide pursuit of Johnson into a chase equal to Captain Ahab's stalking of Moby Dick.
Langford's career seems to be the basis for many archetypes. Here we have the supremely talented black fighter who was stifled during the years of Jim Crow (denied even by Johnson, the black champion of the time); he fought beyond his prime, until his eyes were so bad that he had to feel his way along the ropes to find his corner between rounds; he ended up penniless and alone, occasionally struck down by passing automobiles because he couldn't see.
But Moyle, a member of the International Boxing Research Organization, also reminds us that Langford had a large following in America, as well as in Europe and Mexico. As the book's many wonderful photographs show, Langford was every bit as colorful as Johnson. And for a cactus-stump of a man who disdained training, Langford was a marvelous fighting machine with a profound knowledge of the ring.
There will always be those who over-praise Langford, those who insist he wouldn't been 200-0 with 200 knockouts, if only he weren't handcuffed by the indignities of the era. While it's undoubtedly true that Langford carried some opponents and took a few dives, he also lost a lot of bouts due to his poor conditioning. Moyle follows the usual argument that when it appeared his shot at Johnson's title would never happen, Langford grew fat and lazy. Still, Moyle approaches the subject in an even-handed manner, and is never maudlin.
One wonders how boxing history might've changed if Langford, rather than Johnson, had been the first black fighter to win the heavyweight championship. Langford was certainly a more crowd-pleasing fighter, and if half the quotes attributed to him are true, he was better with the press. Moyle's book makes us think 1908 America might've enjoyed seeing Langford wear the crown. At the very least, Langford wouldn't have denied Johnson a title shot."
- Don Stradley |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 09:47 am: |
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Now this is nice!
Hello Mr. Moyle, welcome to our humble abode.
One thing I've always admired about AALBC and Thumper's Corner is the leadership and integrity of Troy, Thumper and the rest of the staff. Thumper's reviews are real and Troy has welcomed opinions across the board.
On the little strip called TC'S one can expect to see a host of opinions. We sometimes forget their are people behind the books we so freely praise or throw on the scrap heap. But that's the beauty of it all. I am so happy you arrived to give us a little insight into your book and Sam Langford.
As you know it can be risky to enter a no-holds barred environment such as a discussion board. Others authors have arrived waving banners and ...well, they didn't make their lunch here.
I am a boxing fan, not the type that know all the statistics. I love to watch boxing, it's one of my greatest passions. I watched the old Gillett Friday Night Fights with my father. We only had 2 channels and 1 TV so mom would have to sit in. Thanks for the memories.
The stories behind the boxers are sometimes just as interesting as the fights. I have a few coffer table books on Ali and other boxers. I think your book would be a nice addition to the collection. Thanks for stopping by.
You know this is a discussion board. Would you like to make a few predictions of upcoming fights? I am not trying to say anything but Mr. Copper is 0-1 *lol*.
Now if we can get Prince to stop by and talk with Troy and Thumper we would be doing something. |
Cmoyle
Newbie Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:19 am: |
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Thank you. I am a fanatical colletor of boxing books. In fact, I now have over 3,300 different titles in my ever growing collection. I sell duplicates and other boxing memorabilia on my site prizefightingbooks.com
Truthfully, I don't really follow the fights all that closely today. I'm more a studen of the sports history, and the period from 1890 thru 1930 has always held the greatest inerest for me.
I will purchase a pay-for-view fight every once in a while, for example the Mayweather vs. DeLa Hoya fight, but there hasn't been many fights of late that held much interest for me, especially in the heavyweight division.
Now there were a lot of fights in the 70's and 80's that I was interested in, back when Ali and the rest of that great heavyweight bunch was fighting in the 70's, and the 80's weren't bad at all either. Of course, the lighter weight divisions when Hagler, Duran, Hearns, and Leonard were fighting were terrific as well. Boy do I miss those days.
If you'd like to order a signed copy of my book I'm selling some direct on www.samlangford.com Nobody has been disappointed in it so far.
There was a period in time (1907)when Langford was having difficulty finding opponents to fight him. In fact, another nickname somone hung on him was "Beggar Sam", because he was actively pursuing other fighters in an effort to convince them to fight him. Around that period of time one sportswriter (W.O. McGeehan) wrote the following poem:
"Who’ll Fight Sam Langford!
(A Pugilistic Nursery Rhyme)
I.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Stanley K.,
“Britt has taken me away
And I’m signed to do a play.
Then I’m going to the hay.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
II.
“Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Jack the Twin.
“I am careful of my chin
And I’m pretty near all in,
And suicide’s a sin.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
III.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” is Papke’s wail,
“I’m a lily white and pale
And my life is not for sale;
Why I’d sooner got to jail.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
IV.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford
“Not I,” said Kid McCoy;
“I’m a pretty game old boy,
But this unrefined employ
I will leave for hoi polloi.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
V.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said poor old Fitz.
“Though I’d fight for just six bits,
Still I haven’t lost my wits;
I’ll preserve my speckled mitts.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.
VI.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Hugo Kelly.
“He would pound me to a jelly
And I’d lose some vermicalli.
Not for me. What ta helli?
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
VII.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” said Joe da Grim.
“I no like to fight with him
Cause he shutta up my glim
And da chances are too slim
I’ll notta fight Sam Langford.”
VIII.
Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not I,” Al Kaufman said.
“You are crazy in the head.
Chase yourself and go to bed.
I ain’t anxious to be dead.
I’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
IX.
“Who’ll fight Sam Langford?
“Not us.” The low brows cried.”
And they turned around to hide.
“Nix: the color line is wide,
And we’re going to stay inside.
We’ll not fight Sam Langford.”
" |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1312
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 11:07 am: |
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Clay, that was a great poem, funny too.
Psssst....Is Thumper or Troy
standing by the wall,
Their not very tall.
I don't want them to hear what am about to say,
They might say, "Carey, go away."
I looked in the cookie jar,
It was very low.
Thought about the bank,
Decided I can't go.
Times have been tuff,
a little ruff.
If I bought a book,
I'd have to be a crook.
If you don't tell,
I won't either.
Looked in my frig,
It couldn't get any leaner.
I can't throw a hook,
Am looking for a book.
It's not an uppercut,
Am trying to get a ...hookup.
~Carey |
Cmoyle
Newbie Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 11:29 am: |
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Nice
Although not quite the same,
it's clear Carey got game.
Langford book title has no fluff,
this cat was the real stuff.
I won't tell,
this book is swell.
In fact, it's quite a deal,
most would say a real steal. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1313
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 03:06 pm: |
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Ohhh, I am liking you more and more .
Little Richard said:
"Keep a knockin' but you can't come in"
"Come back tomorrow night and try it again"
AM BACK!
Clay, what you say,
A broke brotha can't get a deal today.
A deal you say, a steal for sure,
But didn't you hear, am very very po'.
Langford was tough, I hear the book is sweat,
But if I buy the book, I'd end up in the street.
Listen, give me your ear,
Can't show my face, hiding my tears.
I don't want to beg,
I don't want to cry,
but a book is what I need,
Or I might die.
Dig in your pockets,
Look in your heart.
One fine book,
Surely you can break apart.
429 pages, what a great read,
what do you say,
Clay?
Baby Baby Baby PLEASE! |
Cmoyle
Newbie Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2008
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 04:32 pm: |
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Oh man, a broke brother,
not another.
Everybody want something for free,
what's in it for me?
Complementary copies to reviewers left & right,
and now Carey says he's a little light.
Spend 7 years researching and writing,
only to hear Carey tell me he ain't biting.
How you ever gonna learn,
if you don't spend a little of what you earn?
It cost me to get books from printer and ship,
yet ya'll want don't seem to give a rip.
Been fun goofing around,
maybe there's some middle ground? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1314
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 10:18 pm: |
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Hello Mr. Moyle
You've been a great sport! Our exchanges together with an autographed book would be priceless. Nobody...I repeat, NOBODY could top that. A personalized tit-for-tat with the man, Mr. Clay Moyle.
I will be hitting your site. We don't need a middle ground. I think I can scrap up a little cash even if I have to sell a few cans.
Thank You
Carey
Carey |
Cmoyle
Newbie Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2008 - 11:22 pm: |
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Great, I'd love for you to read it and let your pals on this thread know what you think of Sam afterward. I'll make a point of throwing in a surprise bonus item of some kind.
What city are you located in?
Your poems cracked me up.
Clay |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 11:14 am: |
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I can't wait!
Cassius no more,
He changed his name.
Everyone knows,
He went onto fame.
Bonavitto didn't listen,
He face would soon glisten.
Lefts,rights,uppercuts too,
Hit the man so hard,he fell out of his shoes.
"Clay you say",
As he threw a hook.
"No!..you silly fool,
He wrote that book.
Carey sits back,
With a smile on his face.
Looking around the house,
For just the right place.
Move over Hemingway,it's a new day.
Richard Wright was tight,
but now out of sight.
Get back Stella ...with your groove.
Got a new fella ...his book is smooth.
Sweep, dust, the coffee boils.
Now am waiting for Mr Moyle.
Cracked him up,
Laid him down.
What the heck,
Is he calling me a clown.
Asked me where I live,
Can't he tell,
I live in a cow patch,
Oh what a smell...Peeeuuuuw!
On the lamb,
Don't wanna go to jail.
Gotta be quite,
Someone might tell.
Here's the deal,
Hope you don't squeal.
Mr. Charlie wants me,
And I ain't no square.
But Lord knows,
I can't go back there.
I got your dough,
So we should go,
Behind the doe,
If you want yo' flow.
Surprise bonus is not the onus behind my smiling face. But refuse I'll not, cause you've taken a clot, from money I can't replace .
~Carey |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 460
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 11:59 am: |
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Oh Lord Cmoyle! What have you started? He's taken his begging to a new level! [No rhyme intended.] |
Cmoyle
Newbie Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2008 - 05:34 pm: |
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Carey a clown? Maybe,
But how would I know?
I'm a newbee here baby,
He's certainly no average Joe.
Is he on the lamb,
a real fugitive?
Don't really give a damn,
long as he's no relative.
One thing sure, this is the longest it's took,
for me to try and sell one single book.
Confuscious say, only those who pay,
get to play. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1576
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 09:10 am: |
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LOL, Y'all are TOO MUCH! This is priceless
Carey you better buy a FEW copies of Cmoyle books!
Cmoyle, you probably will score some lurker sales as a result of this exchange. |
Wfcooper
Regular Poster
Username: Wfcooper
Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 10:10 am: |
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NOW, HOLD UP!!!! CMoyle, I am truly honored to read your prose, and trust me, as a boxing enthusiast, I most definitely have something to add to the equation.
You guys, and your poetic prose, gave me chills. My goodness!!! Why ya'll want to trip on a brotha....
Man, one of the things I wish Sam Langford could have done is adopt a Bernard Hopkins mentality and just taunted Jack Johnson into a rematch. I think Buddy McGirt. In 1993, after losing to Pernell Whitaker at MSG with a torn rotator cuff (Could not throw his left hook), he followed Sweet Pea around, even called him a •••••. He got his rematch in late 1994 at the SCOPE in Nolfork. He lost, but....
Jack Johnson, from what I heard (correct me if I'm wrong CMOYLE) indicated that there was not much money in fighting blacks, so you know he wasn't going to fight what could have been the toughtest S.O.B. he fought again. Damn shame.
Man, I feel honored to be here with Carey, and CMOYLE, as I feel like a neophyte. Teach me fellas. |
Cmoyle
Newbie Poster
Username: Cmoyle
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 24, 2008 - 12:03 pm: |
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Actually Langford, and his manager, did quite a bit to attempt to goad Johnson into a rematch, to no avail. I go into a lot of that in the book.
It's true that Johnson said nobody wanted to see two black men fight for the heavyweight championship, but the fact of the matter is that the great Australian promoter, Hugh McIntosh, offered him a lot of money to come to Australia and fight Langford for the title, but Johnson turned him down.
In fact, McIntosh said that at one point Johnson finally admitted to him that he had no desire to "fight that little black smoke, because he's got a chance to win against anybody" and that there was just as much, or more money to be made fighting against the easier white hopes.
So I think the truth is that while Johnson may likely have been able to decision Sam had they fought again, he didn't want to take the chance, and he really could make just as much or more money fighting against the various white hopes that were around at the time.
Like you say, it's a damn shame the rematch never happened, because Langford was clearly the #1 contender for at least 2-3 of the years that Johnson was the champion. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2008 - 02:00 pm: |
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Coop Said:
Hold up Carey, Hold up Clay!
If you brothas don't mind, I'd like to play.
It's a matter of taste,
Some might say a waste,
For men to talk the day away.
Hate or imitate, there's a bed for all to lay.
Juxtaposed into the prose,Copper took a swing.
His gift of boxin' is toxin',
to those that "think" they know.
Go Go Go,
let it flow,
do yo' thang,
Troy sang,... "oh happy day".
Balanced,diversified...
They never lied.
His wisdom is a guide, a smooth ride,
Into the world of pugilism.
His words...his sprinkles cause wrinkles,
As I strain to understand.
All I can say is...
My man...My man.
It used to be heaven,it was a given,
I thought I knew what to say.
Yet, I stutter when I utter,
His words send mine to decay.
I agree...
Chills without a pill.
No prescription,
For this affliction.
Writers, fans,
No educated fools.
It's been great,
hangin' with you two.
What's the cost to be the boss?
Can't put a price on happiness,
Sweet bliss,
Moments with friends. |
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