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AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board » Culture, Race & Economy - Archive 2007 » Is Race Dying? « Previous Next »

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Cynique
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 03:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Check out this article which was re-printed in the Controversy Section of Sunday's Chicago Sun-Times. It is quite long but is a very revealing and timely commentary on the current state of race in america.

www.salon.com/opinion/kamiya/2007/11/27/race/print.html
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Libralind2
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Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 09:49 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks I shared
LiLi
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Schakspir
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Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 06:42 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I call bullshit: reading the whole thing, it's clear the author of the piece only wants the black race to vanish, not the others. They want us to become "lightened" and "whitewashed" through miscegenation and (most especially) by adopting so-called white middle-class values (as if white middle-class people don't do drugs or around, something I know first hand is BULLSHIT!!). Funny how they never suggest the white underclass grow their hair or stop wearing Klan robes....or suggest that Mexican-American newcomers stop cramming 50 people into one house and only cram 5 like whitey does it. No--the big emphasis is on Denegrification. As usual!
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Mony
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Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 07:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This article reads like the same trash put out by Dinesh DeSouza several years ago. He basically posits the same remedies for an end to racism. http://www.dineshdsouza.com/. I believe the book was called 'An End to Racism'.
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Troy
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Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Schakspir, so that I might understand you better. How do you define "The Black Race"?

Is someone like Tiger Woods who does not self identify as Black and who marries a white woman; is he "Black"?

Is Michael Jackson, who may self identify as Black but clearly does not want to be?

Is Barack Obmama who is 50% white and 50% Black, "Black".

How about the person with one Black great-grand parent out of 8?

By the way the article did not exactly make a lot of sense to me? I believe the premise is flawed...
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Troy
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Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:18 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mony, Dinesh DeSouza said he wrote a book, on his blackberry, while on a flight from Singapore... I don't recall the title.

It did not exactly sell me on the prospect of purchasing one of his books to read. I think an author should at least act like they put some effort, perhaps a little bit of thought into a book.
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Cynique
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Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 10:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, it's easy to dismiss what they article says, but what the author claims does seem to be playing itself out in the presidential race, whch is why the picture is so murky where Obama is concerned. You have to have a better reason for disagreeing with the article than that it makes you mad. IMO
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Ntfs_encryption
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 02:03 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"This article reads like the same trash put out by Dinesh DeSouza several years ago. He basically posits the same remedies for an end to racism. http://www.dineshdsouza.com/. I believe the book was called 'An End to Racism'."

Funny you should mention him Mony, I was just talking about him last night. Dinesh D’Souza is a Eastern Indian immigrant who fancies himself has a self taught Negro-ologist. His blistering condemnations of American blacks has made him the darling of right wing white conservatives. I am very familiar with him and I have followed his academic styled meanderings of how slavery benefited blacks and why blacks were not as oppressed and abused under slavery as we have been lead to believe.

He is also an advocate of how white liberals have pampered and spoiled blacks. He believes white liberals and not historical white institutional racism and violence, are the enemies of American blacks. His speeches are very articulate and void of the anger and passionate cynicism you typically find with someone like David Horowitz or Robert Novak. His commentaries are not like the fingers nails on the black board of Ann Coulter or the mindless buffoonery and ignorance of Rush Limbaugh but the anti-black venom in his words are nevertheless equally disturbing.


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Cynique
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 02:25 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

During the radical 1960s there was this militant black activist by the name of Louis Lomax. And after a trip to Africa, his first words upon returning to America were: "Thank God, for slavery!"
I don't consider myself conservative, but I do have a dispassionate regard for the truth and I agree that in the past, white liberals, with their paternalistic attitudes of thinking they knew what was best for "Negroes", very often did Blacks more harm than good.
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Ntfs_encryption
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 03:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"During the radical 1960s there was this militant black activist by the name of Louis Lomax. And after a trip to Africa, his first words upon returning to America were: "Thank God, for slavery!""

I'm sure he did. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!


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Troy
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 03:53 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Conservative is one of those terms that have meaning in isolation.

Calling a Black person "Conservative" is like calling them "niggardly". It might be an appropriate term for some folks, but one would have to be very careful using it.

I agree 100% with Cynique's comment. In fact the "paternalistic attitudes" of some have caused a lot more damage than just harming Black folks.

Most of those folks are well meaning people -- they just need to be constrained. Otherwise they'd have you living EXACTLY the way THEY wanted you to be living.

But just because the standard of living of the average Black person, in American, far exceeds that of the average human on the planet; that does not mean Slavery was good... That is illogical.

Who knows what the planet would be like now if there was never slavery, or genocide...

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Mony
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 06:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ntfs_encryption, " His commentaries are not like the fingers nails on the black board of Ann Coulter or the mindless buffoonery and ignorance of Rush Limbaugh but the anti-black venom in his words are nevertheless equally disturbing". This is exactly why this man is dangerousin his dispassionate discourse. What I find interesting is the fact that some of these American 'conservatives' hurl invectives at blacks, and, indeed, appear to make a career out of doing so. They seem to do this under the guise of 'helping' blacks through the old boot straps ideology. However, these particular writers address systemic racism at its' core. Belive me, racism still exists in abundance systemically. With that being said the 'liberals' also have shortcomings which are indeed paternalistic when they are writing about Blacks. Rightly or wrongly, I have always thought that only one can speak for themselves. Reading conservative and liberal writings on Blacks sometime gets my goat! It would appear that many of them make a lucrative living wiriting and pontificating on others. Sort of like the noisy neighbour whose opinions are given whether you like it or not. If you argue with them, you are some sort of miscreant or a contrarian.
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Mony
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Posted on Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 06:14 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"However, these particular writers addres systemic racism at its' core". Sorry, I meant do-not address systemic racism at its' core!
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 02:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dinesh D’Souza is a Eastern Indian immigrant who fancies himself has a self taught Negro-ologist.

(The man is a Hindu. Those are some of the most racist people on earth. See how they treat the Dravidians over there and the Untouchables)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"During the radical 1960s there was this militant black activist by the name of Louis Lomax. And after a trip to Africa, his first words upon returning to America were: "Thank God, for slavery!""

(If he said this he should burn in hell for eternity and anybody who believes it should, too.

The problems the Africans are having is due to slavery and due to the penetration of their nations by the European powers, which were able to fall upon societies debilitated by the depopulation and the wars brought on by the slave trade.

Any idiot, who would look at our inner cities, which are in the shape they are in because of the legacies of racism and slavery is insane.

40 years ago you couldn't even use the same TOILET as a white woman and you are thanking God.

You need to have the doctors check your meds.

white liberals, with their paternalistic attitudes of thinking they knew what was best for "Negroes", very often did Blacks more harm than good.

(Yeah, I suppose their thinking we should have jobs, and the vote, and to live where we wanted and good schools was a stupid idea--especially when I read your posts.

GAWD! If Slavery returned you'd be all for it--the reason why you couldn't see living in Africa is because there ain't no white butt to lick over there and you love the taste--

Verily ye shall have thy reward--
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 02:48 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm gonna run for President.

My platform?

"I promise to get rid of all the Negroes and when I'm finished I'll resign and hop on the last plane and leave myself."

I'll be a shoo-in! They probably won't even have no election. Just carry me on in on their shoulders.
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Ntfs_encryption
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Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 04:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"The problems the Africans are having is due to slavery and due to the penetration of their nations by the European powers, which were able to fall upon societies debilitated by the depopulation and the wars brought on by the slave trade."

..........................

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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 07:38 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As long as I'm aggravating chrishayden I know I'm doing something right. This man never in his life had an original thought. He accuses me of being stuck in the past but he is the one who is mired in it. He fears the present because he cannot deal with change. Poor slob. Wonder why he doesn't move to Africa??
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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, December 07, 2007 - 08:58 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chrishayden in a pathetic attempt to dramatize his flawed argument declares: "40 years ago you couldn't even use the same TOILET as a white woman and you are thanking God."

What an idiot. I guess the poor fool doesn't know that Jim Crow didn't exist in the North when it came to public accomodations. Just another blatant example of the foolishness he resorts to when trying to distract from his stupidity.
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Nels
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 01:37 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"blacks today are so diverse they can no longer be considered a single race"

Ahhhh still...so true. The movement continues. Alas, an impending shift? And yes, race continues to devolve into a prism of ethnicity as blacks rapidly defragment into socioeconomically defined threads.
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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 02:09 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well finally somebody has the guts to say the unsayable. As for that relic chrishayden, "don't woke him up, let him slept on."
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:49 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What an idiot. I guess the poor fool doesn't know that Jim Crow didn't exist in the North when it came to public accomodations. Just another blatant example of the foolishness he resorts to when trying to distract from his stupidity.

(You're either a fool or a liar. You're from Chicago. You ever go over to Cicero in the 1960's? Dr. King got his head busted over there)
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:53 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

WHO WAS LOUIS LOMAX

Militant black activist?

From the FBI's files on him, he was arrested and found guilty of a Confidence Game. Lomax did not want some of the FBI's facts on him to be known, especially the fact that he was a minister and in prison. The FBI has an extensive file on him. That file is an interesting profile of white American men's obsession with Black men sleeping with white women. [See FBI Files on Lomax are an interesting read!]


This was a militant black activist?
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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:05 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So you actually think in the year 1968, chrishayden, that there were bathrooms that said "white" and "black" in Chicagoland. Puleeze.
As far as Cicero is concerned, hundreds of black people worked there in the Western Electric factory and didn't get their heads busted on their way to work, know-it-all.
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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Louis Lomax sounds like your kind of guy, crissy,- you who defend all black men against racist pigs and who can't deal with Moonie because you secretly want her.
And what does this have to do with Lomax preferring to live in America instead of Africa after visiting there??
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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 12:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And furthermore, chrishayden, it was the misguided liberals, who you revere, who influenced MLK to target Cicero as a place to demonstrate. Black folks have NEVER had a desire to live in this seedy little blue-collar suburb which at the time was populated with polacks and bohunks and krauts and dagos, many of whom couldn't half speak English. We blacks knew how to be prejudiced, ourselves. Something you certainly know about.
Now, the popluation of Cicero is over half hispanic and black folks still ain't interested in living in this dump!
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Tonya
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 07:16 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Schakspir said: I call bullshit: reading the whole thing, it's clear the author of the piece only wants the black race to vanish, not the others. They want us to become "lightened" and "whitewashed" through miscegenation and (most especially) by adopting so-called white middle-class values (as if white middle-class people don't do drugs or •••• around, something I know first hand is BULLSHIT!!). Funny how they never suggest the white underclass grow their hair or stop wearing Klan robes....or suggest that Mexican-American newcomers stop cramming 50 people into one house and only cram 5 like whitey does it. No--the big emphasis is on Denegrification. As usual!

Tonya: I totally agree with you as does this Washington Post article.


White May Be Might, But It's Not Always Right


By Khalil G. Muhammad
Sunday, December 9, 2007; B03

Recently I showed my college students a YouTube clip of Bill Cosby's and Alvin Poussaint's appearance on "The Oprah Winfrey Show." After hearing Cosby plead for poor blacks to embrace their parenting responsibilities, many of the students said they wished their parents had followed his advice. They regretted that some of their peers had done poorly in school, abused drugs and alcohol, and run afoul of the law. These problems, they agreed, might have been avoided with more supervision at home.

They might have been the perfect audience for a Cosby town-hall lecture on the dangers of self-destructive values in black America. They might also have been perfect illustrations of the growing "values gap" between poor and middle-class blacks described in a widely cited recent Pew Research Center poll.

Except almost all my students are white.

Cosby and the recent Pew study are the latest in a long finger-wagging tradition of instructing poor blacks to lift themselves up by their bootstraps and reject pathologically "black" values. Today, rap culture is usually presented as Exhibit A, but strains of the same argument have cropped up for more than a century. If blacks would just get their act together, this old story goes, all the social inequalities between them and the rest of society would disappear.

In its coverage of the Pew report findings, National Public Radio asked whether some blacks were lagging behind because they were choosing not to become "closer to whites in their values." Unfortunately, this line of questioning reinforces one of the most persistent myths in America, that white is always right. The myth reflects an enduring double standard based on "white" and "black" explanations for social problems. And it assumes that "white" culture is the gold standard for judging everyone, despite its competing ideologies, its contradictions and its flaws, including racism.

The masquerade began over a hundred years ago. Shortly after the end of slavery, sociologists and demographers began presenting research on black failure and struggle as "indisputable" proof of black inferiority. One of the first studies was released in 1896, when the leading race-relations demographer of the period, Frederick L. Hoffman, analyzed census data showing that blacks were doing worse than whites in mortality, health, employment, education and crime. The problem was not racism, he argued, but "race traits and tendencies."

To him, the civil rights acts of the 1860s and 1870s had leveled the playing field. Blacks should be left to compete against whites on their own and face the inevitable. The black man, he wrote, "has usually but one avenue out of his dilemma -- the road to prison or to an early grave."

At the same time, when explaining rising rates of crime, suicide and mental-health problems among whites, Hoffman blamed industrialization and the strains of "modern life." He called for a reordering of the nation's economic priorities. Hoffman's study coincided with -- and provided justification for -- the Supreme Court's notorious Plessy v. Ferguson decision, which legalized segregation.

As segregation took hold, there was a powerful need to minimize the role of racism as a factor in explaining racial disparities. The "Cosby" role at the start of Jim Crow was first played by Booker T. Washington. Counseling blacks to conquer their inferiority, he repudiated civil rights activism in favor of self-help and moral regeneration.

Many whites loved Washington, and his ideas were echoed by liberal social scientists such as the psychologist G. Stanley Hall, who instructed black people to stop sympathizing "with their own criminals" and "accept without whining patheticism and corroding self-pity [their] present situation, prejudice and all."

But when Hall turned his focus on whites, his research on adolescent psychology directly influenced national efforts to protect them from the ravages of industrial capitalism. Drawing on his work, the child-welfare activist Jane Addams established Hull House in Chicago at first to help immigrant families adjust to American life, and later to save thousands of Chicago's white youth from lives of crime, violence and drug abuse attributed to "modern city conditions." But black children were not generally welcome at Hull House. Addams claimed that similar problems among black youth were due to the race's "belated" moral development, manifested in poor parenting and a lack of "social restraint."

The pioneering black social scientist W.E.B. Du Bois challenged this first generation of white liberals and social scientists, including Hoffman, on the flawed assumptions and racial double standards in their studies and in their practices. But when Du Bois tried to argue that pathology knows no color, he was ignored, criticized and dismissed by his white peers as an angry black man with, as one sociologist put it, a "chip on his shoulder."

Du Bois's frustrations led him to leave academia for a life of anti-racist activism. In 1910, the year he became director of research and publicity for the NAACP, he warned that "whiteness" was becoming the new basis of the nation's consciousness. "Are we not coming more and more day by day to making the statement, 'I am white,' the one fundamental tenet of our practical morality?" he asked.

In today's era of hip-hop, Du Bois's warning still goes unheeded. If rap music is so bad, why are white kids its major consumers? And by what value system should we judge the large media companies that publish and distribute hip-hop -- or, really, gangsta rap, its most popular and sinister cousin?

Were "white values" on display two years ago when the federal government failed to adequately respond to one of the greatest natural disasters in American history?

If lower-class "black" values are so distinct from those of the rest of America, particularly the "white values" supposedly now embraced by middle- and upper-class blacks, why, according to the Pew report, do less than a third of white Americans graduate from college? Are legions of whites similarly devaluing higher education? Are they "acting black"?

If lower-class black values are so peculiar, why do whites report the same or higher levels of illegal drug use as blacks, as numerous studies show?

What of underperforming white schoolchildren in rural America, the Great Plains, Appalachia or the Deep South? Are they "acting black" because they can't compete with their upwardly mobile suburban counterparts?

Today's liberals still empathize with America's invisible white working poor, who they warn are being "nickel and dimed" to the point of near homelessness. But why the empathy? Isn't their poverty really a function of their choosing to embrace their hidden blackness?

Du Bois's scholarship and activism helped pave the way for the modern civil rights movement, which helped exorcize the ghost of America's Jim Crow past. That he was right about racism but that we still continue to accept the same flawed thinking about race and social problems suggests a powerful and enduring paradox.

If we insist on explaining racial disparities in terms of black vs. white values, then we need to explain what exactly white values are. When we do, we'll find that whiteness is an inadequate standard by which to judge good black people vs. bad ones.

As my students would tell you, the real white world is as pathological, as respectable and as diverse as the black one.

kgmuhamm@indiana.edu


Khalil G. Muhammad is an assistant professor of history at Indiana University and the author of the forthcoming "The Condemnation of Blackness: Ideas about Race and Crime in the Making of Modern Urban America. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/07/AR2007120701615. html?hpid=opinionsbox1
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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, December 08, 2007 - 11:39 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who labled these values as "white"? They are rules for survival that can apply to anybody. Why get distracted by the sub par behavior of dysfunctional white folks? But what could you expect from somebody with a name like "Khalil Muhammad"? Excuse me while I tune him out and focus on Bill Cosby's concern about the problems of black people. . And what better proof of the claim that "race is dying" than the disparity of opinions and philosophies that are creating deep divisions among slave descendants with each group thinking they have a monopoly on the truth.
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And furthermore, chrishayden, it was the misguided liberals, who you revere, who influenced MLK to target Cicero as a place to demo

(Now Dr. King couldn't think for himself.

Quit while you still have a shred of reputation left)

You still haven't answered my question. Suppose for some reason I WANTED to live in Cicero, dump or not. I couldn't do it, could I? And Cicero is in the North, isn't it.

I could post examples until doomsday of how the North was just as restricted as the South--

Here's some homework for you, Granny. Research how many communities in THE NORTH still have restrictive covenants on selling property to Black people

Oh, and most of these don't tend to be DUMPS but UPSCALE rich places.)
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique

Post Number: 10837
Registered: 01-2004

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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 12:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nobody said the North didn't have racial prejudiceness. But I can cite example after example back then where black people were not restricted, where integration did exist. Black people could sit at Woolworth lunch counters, they could use the same public bathrooms and water fountains as white people. You didn't have to sit at the back of the bus. Schools were integrated. You speak in absolutes with your specious arguments, chrishayden. You think you know everything, but if you didn't have stock answers to fall back on, you'd be mute. You were just a snotty-nosed brat when all of this was going on. You didn't live through it. Now that your are a crappy-assed adult all you do is parrot what you've read about the generalities. You never seem to realize that the civil rights movement dramatized things and focused on the worst case scenarios. There was no typical situation. It differed from place to place.
And you do the research because I don't take orders from you. You talk a lot of BS. So you back up your extravagant claims and tell me how many thousands of communities still have restricted convenances. I'm sure there are some in Atlanta where black folks don't want white ones in their upscale communities.
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Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption

Post Number: 2879
Registered: 10-2005

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Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 04:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"If lower-class "black" values are so distinct from those of the rest of America, particularly the "white values" supposedly now embraced by middle- and upper-class blacks, why, according to the Pew report, do less than a third of white Americans graduate from college? Are legions of whites similarly devaluing higher education? Are they "acting black"?

If lower-class black values are so peculiar, why do whites report the same or higher levels of illegal drug use as blacks, as numerous studies show?

What of underperforming white schoolchildren in rural America, the Great Plains, Appalachia or the Deep South? Are they "acting black" because they can't compete with their upwardly mobile suburban counterparts?"


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