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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2336
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 02:05 pm: | 
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From Diverse Issues in Higher Education:
Not since the Oakland, Calif. School Board voted in 1996 to recognize Ebonics as a language to be factored into its speakers’ English classes — sparking a national debate — has there been so much focus on African-American speech patterns. Fast forward to 2007, and we now have the appalling case of the Houston Independent School District (HISD) police officer who, for whatever reason, saw fit to produce and distribute the Ghetto Handbook: Ebonics 101 to fellow school district officers. From the debasing cover illustration of two Black men, one brandishing a gun, to the offensive subtitle “Wacha dun did now?” — including the outrageous poem thrown into the mix — this document is rife with racist and offensive African-American stereotypes.
The good news here is that this is a rare and profound teaching moment, and it should be treated as such. It is clear that ignorance abounds in this country with regard to African-American language, and this unfortunate incident speaks to the need for greater education and understanding in this area. To begin with, it must be made clear that Ebonics and slang are not one and the same....
American Ebonics is a contact language that resulted from the mingling of non-English-speaking, displaced and enslaved Africans with English speakers. Hence, its lexicon is English, but many of its grammatical structures and its syntax, according to some linguists, closely resemble those found in West African languages.
...What is not disputed, though, is the fact that the vast majority of African-Americans, to varying degrees, speak in a tongue that is all their own — and they should not be demonized or ridiculed because of this. After all, lest we forget, African-Americans are the only immigrants in this country who were forcibly stripped of their mother tongue. Thus, many view this retention of African language as an amazing testament to the resilience of the African-American spirit, and as a form of resistance to outright deculturation....
Dr. Pamela D. Reed is a diversity consultant and assistant professor of English and African-American literature at Virginia State University.
Full article: http://www.diverseeducation.com/artman/publish/article_9698.shtml
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10255
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 10, 2007 - 08:28 pm: |
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I agree that Ebonics is a unique variation of English. But I'd be interested in some examples on how its speech patterns mimic those of African languages.
I've always found some significance in the relationship African Americans have with the verb "be". I be, she be, dey be. "Being" is an declaration of existence: "I be, therefore, I am." And of course the practice of saying of "aks" instead of "ask" is as much a physical failing as a grammatical one. "Aks" doesn't require as much participation on the part of the tongue as "ask" does. It's lazy speech. But whatever.
Or do I think "demonize" is the proper word to describe what some blacks do to those who speak Ebonics. This is an attempt by others to villainize their opponents and canonize Ebonic speakers as blameless martyrs who are without sin. Ebonics critics are, instead, more interested in "Anglicizing" because, as is demonstrated, it's whites who demonize Ebonics. But when you are able confront whites in standard English, then you neutralize their attemptst to stigmatize.
Needless to say, I remain a faithful advocate of the advantages of being bi-lingual. It's a more practical solution than thinking that the USA is going to adjust itself to accomodate America's underclasses because, as we all know, - this is a racist country |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2339
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 11, 2007 - 11:12 am: |
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I remain a faithful advocate of the advantages of being bi-lingual.
I agree, Cynique, about bi-lingualism, tri-lingualism--heck, multilingualism, period. In my effort to cut and paste so as not to break Troy's fair use posting rules ( ) I neglected to post the part of the piece where the author mentions just this aspect:
...there are even countless middle class African-Americans (this writer included) who are fully capable of speaking formal English — and who do so on a regular basis except on those occasions, in relaxed, informal settings among family and/or friends, when Ebonics is sometimes spoken. This phenomenon, which is almost second-nature, is called code-switching, and it is very common among people who speak more than one language.
The key is that many people who need have the ability to "code-switch" are not able to because they lack the skills in formal, standard English. Is it possible to teach our children standard English such that they can gain proficiency without demonizing their existing language?
And I do not need to hear about the fact that "everyone" lacks proficiency with standard English--I work on a college campus and am frequently amazed at the limited skills of many of our undergraduate students. But let's face facts: the consequences are different and more severe for the folks we are talking about in these "Ebonics" discussions. |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 964
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 12:41 am: |
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Ebonics = Ignorance |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10268
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 11:37 am: |
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Yes, those who speak Ebonics are ignorant about the rules of grammar but just because they don't speak Standard English, doesn't make them dumb. |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 965
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 07:46 pm: |
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Cyn --
"just because they don't speak Standard English, doesn't make them dumb"
Perception is in the eye of the beholder. Convince those to whom it matters most and then you may have a valid strategic argument. That's in my friendly opinion (IMfO), of course.
Easy money says virtually none of them would pass an IQ test. The last time I took one was in 2004, scored 139, and still feel like an idiot every day. Guess I'll slink away now and wipe the poop off my shoes.
;) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10276
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 12, 2007 - 09:57 pm: |
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Come on, Nels! There are a lot of people who speak Ebonics who are very shrewd and who have street smarts, and common sense and could even be good at something like math or other undertakings that have nothing to do with grammar, but only require manual skills. The draw back of speaking Ebonics is that doing so enables people to stereotype and stigmatize you, and this doesn't stand you in good stead when you venture out into the mainstream and are trying to make a favorable impression in the professional corporate world. (Of course, all bets are off if you're an aspiring rapper.) |
Batmocop
Regular Poster
Username: Batmocop
Post Number: 99
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2007 - 07:25 am: |
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A big problem with people who speak less than perfect english- (I was a hater of the term Ebonics until I put it in context) is that a lot of people compare the people who speak that way in public to themselves. I would contend that those same people don't want to be looked at as ignorant, and they want to distance themselves form those who speak like that.
Spoken language does not denote intelligence directly. There are a lot of non-speaking people saving the world out there like scientists, doctors, and tribal guidesmen that can get you through the bush alive. There is a push today just as there was when we were brought here against our will to strip our unique ability to communicate from us. Don't forget we code switch with body language better than any race I'm aware of.
You are right though Cynique, Rap without Ebonics prolly aint platinum..lol |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5462
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 13, 2007 - 11:16 am: |
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Ebonics = Ignorance
Nonsense. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2770
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 10:43 am: |
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Ebonics = Ignorance
May not be technically true but it comes across that way............ |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10287
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 14, 2007 - 07:01 pm: |
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Of course some people who speak Ebonics appear to be backward. But - who hasn't played bid-whist with a card shark whose English was fractured? Who hasn't sat there, enduring his ungrammatical taunts as he runs a "Boston" on your ass? LMAO. |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 966
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 01:56 am: |
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In today's highly globalized economy and complex socioeconomic infrastructure, Ebonics is pure ignorance, any way you cut it. The effect of Ebonics can be summarily determined by the retarded progress of those who depend on it. |
Doberman23
Veteran Poster
Username: Doberman23
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 04:31 am: |
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i have to disagree nels, we all use it sometimes and i am not dumb or ignorant. will i use it while i am at work or in an interview? hell no! when i am with my boys, yep. your way of thinking nels would be simliar to someone automatically assuming someone with a southern accent would be less intelligent. or because someone with a thick jersy accent is intelligent. these accents automatically make them twist and turn words and whats proper in some regions is snobby in others.
there is a time and place for everything, ebonics included.
i would like to note though, soulja boy does sound like he is reading a script from a slave movie when he talks. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10288
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 12:19 pm: |
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Ignorant means "to not know" and is not synonomous with being dumb, Nels. A person who speaks poor grammar can be taught correct grammar if they have good sense, and many of them do. A person who speaks good grammar may be ignorant about anything that he is not familiar with. Ebonics is a handicap, but the grammatically-challenged people who speak it may or may not be dumb. |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 968
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 02:22 pm: |
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Yeah, I know what ignorance is, know the formal definition of it, and always have.
Though in this context, ignorance is equated with living in a society where virtually everyone is exposed to proper English in some way or form, yet many who are aware of its benefits choose to (ignore) it.
But then again, if you don't like the word ignorant, then perhaps (stupidity) is next in line, as in you know its wrong, but continue to do it anyway.
Ebonics is not a necessarily a handicap. For many, its a chosen path to inconsequentiality, irrelevance and unimportance in a society that demands much more. A thick Jersey accent carries all of the components of the formal language. On the other hand, Ebonics is void of almost all of the fundamentals of proper language usage. Case in point, Rep. John Lewis of Georgia was sent to the house, most likely by the English-challenged, and virtually no one outside of his own constituency takes him seriously. For nearly all of his life, he's been unintelligible. Oh, perhaps there's a silver lining in that cloud; at least the unintelligible can (un)derstand him. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10295
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 02:55 pm: |
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John Lewis, who is entrenched in his congressional seat, has a speech impediment.
BTW, I am not defending Ebonics by any means. I'm just trying to explore all facets of the problem.
Comedian/activist, Dick Gregory, and comedian/syndicated radio personality, Steve Harvey, both fracture the English language and haven't suffered from this. Go figure.
People who know the advantages of speaking Standard English and choose to not do so, are being defiant and resentful of the idea that the way they speak is not good enough. It's like they exemplify the old adage of "pride going before a fall".
Yet this issue also involves situational aspects. At the Post Office where I worked for so many years, there were plenty of well-paid, Ebonic-speakin folks in supervisory positions, especially among the letter carrier and mail handler crafts. Of course, the post office is a both a black monopoly and a societal anamoly because it is a culture unto itself.
Children, on the other hand, have no idea that speaking Ebonics does not bode well for their future, and they are innocent as opposed to ignorant. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5475
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 03:20 pm: |
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Ebonics = Ignorance
May not be technically true but it comes across that way............
(Only to a sick and twisted individual) |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5476
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 03:21 pm: |
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Ignorant means "to not know" and is not synonomous with being dumb, Nels
(Exactimento! Thank God for Cynique!) |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 2777
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 04:34 pm: |
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"Only to a sick and twisted individual."
No, only to confused race pride obsessed Negroes who refuse to understand there are "no advantages" to so-called Ebonics outside your mini-circle of practitioners and advocates. Sorry Bro Nels but I have to steal one of your comments -read this again Chris: " Ebonics is not a necessarily a handicap. For many, its a chosen path to inconsequentiality, irrelevance and unimportance in a society that demands much more." For everyone else, I'm enjoying this debate. I see a number of opposing but valid points being made. Please continue............
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Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 969
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 08:21 pm: |
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Ntfs -- Yes, this is a very interesting exchange in that it certainly is bringing out a variety of perspectives from all sides. |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 970
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 08:31 pm: |
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Cyn --
"John Lewis, who is entrenched in his congressional seat, has a speech impediment."
Ok Ok Ok.
(Welcome to the Best of New Orleans! Cover Story 05 20 03John Lewis, who was a pioneer civil rights activist, has a speech impediment because he was beaten so badly. He was a client of mine and I asked him later ...
www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2003-05-20/cover_story2.html - 49k - Cached - Similar pages
)
Did he become that way because he was disobedient, or did they whup his ass because he couldn't understand what they were saying? In other words, cause and effect counts. In his current capacity, his impact is marginalized by his (condition), if you want to call it that. However, if you do a voice, language and grammar comparison between him and many from his neck of the woods, you'll likely get more than a hand full of matches. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10314
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 10:17 pm: |
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Maybe that's why Lewis keeps getting re-elected, Nels. His constituency relates to him. "There's method to his madness". LOL.
My whole thing is to take the full measure of a man. Ebonics does not always fully define a person. The ability to cope and survive in a repressive environment takes brains and problem-solving skills. Many Ebonic-speaking people have learned to make The System work for them, while the black community also abounds with middle-class educated fools, - intellectual light-weights who are stuck in a materialistic mode.
But the fact remains, that the onus of Ebonics is heavy baggage for somebody who wants to travel in the world at large. IMO. |
Schakspir
Veteran Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 - 12:49 am: |
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Nobody today would dare claim that Yiddish is ignorance(because it is, or was, just Jews mispronouncing German), or that French is ignorance(because it was just Frankish barbarians speaking Latin wrong), but then again, Yiddish and French are spoken by Caucasians! |
Nels
Veteran Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 972
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 - 02:04 am: |
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"but then again, Yiddish and French are spoken by Caucasians"
An analogy? I doubt it. |
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