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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 575
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 08:13 am: | 
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BLIND EYE: What's worse than making a declaration of genocide and then doing effectively nothing to stop it? Making a declaration of genocide, doing effectively nothing to stop it, and then moving toward normalized relations with the perpetrators. The Bush administration dealt a new blow to the moral force of international law last week when it hosted a state visit by Sudanese Foreign Minister Mustafa Osman Ismail. The minister was granted high-level meetings with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who promised to review existing sanctions, and her deputy, Robert Zoellick, who preliminarily accepted an invitation to Sudan's presidential inaugural next month.
The Bush administration obviously wants to reward the Sudanese government for its cooperation in ending the decades-long civil war with Christian rebels in the south. The administration, under pressure from U.S. evangelicals, lobbied hard for a north-south accord and considers the peace agreement one of its signature achievements in Africa. Furthermore, there is a debt owed for terrorism-related intelligence that the Sudanese government has relayed. Sudan has been helpful in sharing intelligence data and providing access to terrorist suspects since September 11. The CIA flew Sudanese national security chief Salah Abdallah Gosh to Washington as recently as April.
Still, it's hard to fathom how the administration can rationalize a gift basket of political and economic carrots for a country it has accused of orchestrating an ongoing genocide that has resulted in between 180,000 and 300,000 deaths and displaced 2.4 million people from their homes.
Certainly, Sudan's respect for human rights doesn't seem to have improved since the United States imposed a trade embargo and froze the government's assets in 1997, citing, in part, an "abysmal" human rights record. And, based on Zoellick's testimony to Congress last week, it would seem that Sudan still deserves its spot on the State Department's State Sponsors of Terrorism list. In explaining why it wasn't a good idea to send western troops into Darfur, Zoellick said: "I honestly don't know what this could trigger with some of the dangerous people you have there. I mean, I'm thinking here of the Somalians. As I think we all agree, you've got some bloodthirsty, cold-hearted killers. ... If we can make the African Union forces work, it's the best of all, because then they can't say, 'Oh, it's the U.S. or it's the British or colonial powers that are telling Sudan what to do. And, by the way, let's bring in new terrorist killers to go after them.' "
Of course, this sort of reasoning casts doubt on the wisdom of the decision to go into Iraq, which is inhabited, as Bush told us in his radio address last week, by "ruthless killers with no regard for human life." But that's a different blog post.
For Sudan, it would seem that sticks are still the most appropriate foreign policy response. At least that's the thinking at the state level. Last week, Illinois became the first state to suspend investment in companies that do business with Sudan, and other states are heading in that direction. In Illinois alone the new law means divesting about $1 billion. Of course, that will be pennies to Sudan if the federal government moves the other way on sanctions. And it will be one less lever we have to make sure the violence ends.
From http://www.tnr.com/etc.mhtml?pid=2718
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3789
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 09:17 am: |
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'Vette,
So if I'm interpreting this correctly, the Bush Administration is playing nice with a government that's responsible for mass murder, rape, starvation and displacement because the Evangelical Christians want them to.
And American money/approval is only going to embolden and empower the evil the Sudanese Government is ALREADY committing.
See why America's author Thomas Jefferson declared there be a wall between Church and State? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3790
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 09:20 am: |
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BRAVO to Illinois. Let's hope every other US state government follow suit such that they can collectively embarrass the federal government into behaving responsibly. |
Anunaki3600
Veteran Poster
Username: Anunaki3600
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 09:26 am: |
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Sudan too has very large OIL reserves which have not been fully exploited due to the long war. It's not that the "eye is blind" but more to do with "crude OIL blinding the eye". OIL prices per barrel are at the highest in memory and DEMAND too is very high. |
Roxie
Newbie Poster
Username: Roxie
Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
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This is somewhat related. One of my co-workers was venting over how he was concerned for the missing girl in aruba because he has a daughter of his own and then another co-worker added how she hated liberals for focusing too much on the situation in guantanimo bay. Of course I added in that liberals could better use their priorities for the sitation in Sudan (a far worse human rights situation than GB). However, The only response I recieved was complte silence from one co-worker and a faint "uh, yeah" from the other, and the two went back to their venting over the aruba girl.
From this experience, what I realize is that the government gets away with their "bizarro-world" policies because people like my co-workers have their priorities as mixed up as the federal government's. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1277
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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Roxie:
We must begin to understand that they do not have their priorities "mixed up". They have their priorities straight--one missing white girl means more to them than all the starving Afrians in the world.
There was a talk show host named Onion Horton here used to tell us the same thing. When we talk about all the problems he said White people don't see any problems. They are doing fine. We need to understand this and do for ourselves.
We should get our priorities straight. Too many of us feel the same way.
Why is a continent so rich as Africa always begging for aid? This is the way the rich nations of the world want it--they get the riches for a pittance and have the continent in such a way--one is the geographical divison which was imposed or drawn on them by the colonial powers--that they have to beg for handouts. What if they got a fair price for their raw materials?
Then again, if they got a fair price for their raw materials we might not be able to maintain our lifestyle.
The U.S. lifestyle is possible because we are hogging the world's resources. The dirty little secret about the American system is that the rest of the world cannot live like we do without it affecting our lifestyle--we use 20-25% of the world's resources with 5% of the population.
See the friction that is starting over the oil resources now that China is trying to expand its economy--struggle over oil resources is one thing that brought on World War II. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3792
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 04:29 pm: |
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Chris,
Yep. The entire world's economy is one gigantic pyramid scheme with America atop it. EVERYTHING America does attempts to ensure the geopolitical status quo.
Yes. If we continue to demean/degrade dark, non-Westernized people we can claim EVERYTHING they have/do for PENNIES on the dollar.
But if African and the rest of the 3rd World ever begins to demand its fairshare, we all are going to be in deep American doo-doo.
Oh. And what do you think the Ozone Layer is going to be like when China and India alone begin to consume what American does on a per capita basis? |
Roxie
Newbie Poster
Username: Roxie
Post Number: 14
Registered: 06-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 06:32 pm: |
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It's sick how some people are not willing to give up their solid gold toilets so a few people can eat and not endure physical pain. Jesus (help us) |
Africanqueen
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 09:52 pm: |
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If I could bomb the entire Sudanese government completely I would! I think America going in there to fight for a 21 year old war will be the end of the world. Guys, Sudan is much more worst than Somalia... America will regret ever having gone.
What those people have done to my people is worst than anything that's ever happen to any people on earth. I hope God gets them back, I hope they all GO TO HELL.
The Evangelists are doing the right thing. As long as this ends the world of Sudanese government, I would be happy. I hope this ends the world because I'm sick of living healthy while others die and there is nothing I can do.
I have had enough tears, I think it's time the world ends this horrible, horrible war. |
Africanqueen
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 09:54 pm: |
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Roxie, you are right! JESUS HELP US! |
Africanqueen
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 09:58 pm: |
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Abm,
I don't care what Jefferson said. There will never be a wall between church and government because dammit I don't see religion ending in any human life. That is impossible to end religion because people are the religion and what make America!
GOD BLESS AMERICA!!! Remember 911? You couldn't miss this saying! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3796
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 07:31 am: |
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Africanqueen,
Did you read/understand what is meant by the following in 'Vette's initial post:
The Bush administration obviously wants to reward the Sudanese government for its cooperation in ending the decades-long civil war with Christian rebels in the south. The administration, under pressure from U.S. evangelicals, lobbied hard for a north-south accord and considers the peace agreement one of its signature achievements in Africa.
Because if you did, perhaps you - given YOUR background/history - would NOT be quite as excited about praising the alliance of religion and policy.
We had some lengthy decisions here about the role religion has played in American law and history. I suggest you reread some of them.
And I said NOTHING to the effect of "religion ending in any human life". |
Roxie
Newbie Poster
Username: Roxie
Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 09:42 am: |
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AfricanQueen:--I think America going in there to fight for a 21 year old war will be the end of the world.--
The US has always entered every war that didn't directly involve them at the last minute , even WWII! Only if it's profits them or hurts them personally does the government enter a war. I'm covinced the only reason the US gov't helps other nations is always for a self-serving purpose. I mean, even the US can't take any credit for ousting Idi Amin or the Ceausescus of Romania. They can't even get rid of Castro who 90 MILES AWAY! o_O |
Roxie
Newbie Poster
Username: Roxie
Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 09:46 am: |
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But AfricanQueen, I agree,If the US should do anything intelligent,they should just stay out of it, they missed their chance to intervene. -_-' |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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African Queen:
If you think the U.S. Government's motives are charitable you are going to have a rude awakening. If those people they are now aiding decide to act against U.S. plans over there they will wipe them out.
Who did they give the people of the Congo? Mobuto was their boy. Idi Amin was their boy until he threw all the Asians out and started cozying to the Soviets. Haile Selassie was their boy.
The people of the Phillipines were engaged in a war of liberation from Spain when America went to "save" them in 1898. They got 100,000 of them killed and were subordianted to the U.S. afterward.
The U.S. is not alone--Great Britain, France, Russia, Italy all of them play those games. The Chinese and the Indians are about to get busy, too.
If the people of the Sudan cannot save themselves they are in trouble. |
Africanqueen
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 87
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 02:36 pm: |
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Abm,
I understand that they're being friends with the northern army and to me that's pretty bullshit, those people don't deserve any praise and I'm on that with you. But I also hope that this stops the arabs from slattering the south... Evangelicans aren't for war and I guess that's what makes them Christians... But I want those bustards murdered.. I will never forgive them.
I know you didn't say anything about religion ending in human life. But I don't agree with you supporting that quote from Jeff because church and any government will never separate. |
Africanqueen
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 88
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 02:48 pm: |
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Roxie,
Oh well, it's the U.S, the most powerful.. so they do whatever they can to support themselves... but it might just one day destroy them.
Chris,
Sudan as a muslim country is not alone either.. bet you Iraq and all of them is on their back... But I guess if the US is kissing their ass, then the non muslim, Sudanese will continue to suffer...
Also, them going into Iraq was a bad decision because it just pushes more 911s.. Now Iraq can come in and have the right to bomb the US because the US went and bombed their country.
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Roxie
Regular Poster
Username: Roxie
Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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Africanqueen: --Roxie,
Oh well, it's the U.S, the most powerful.. so they do whatever they can to support themselves... but it might just one day destroy them.--
You know, sometimes I feel like that greek mythological character Cassandra: I know what will happen but no one believes me. Even my English teacher(white & male) doesn't believe that history repeats itself.
But then, this man didn't even know what caused the fall of the roman empire or the story of Atlantis(2 civiliztions that ended when they became too confident in their security and superiority.)
The US's exploitive and stubborn ways will come back to hurt them and the "American Dream" will not last. Too bad no one wants to believe it.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 580
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 04:44 pm: |
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"The US's exploitive and stubborn ways will come back to hurt them and the "American Dream" will not last. Too bad no one wants to believe it."-Roxie
I understand the point you are making. However, I think that people fail to look at how other governments do the EXACT same thing as the US. Ultimately, it's the rich cutting deals with one another--and the 'commoners' fighting their battle when they disagree. All I'm saying is that America is not the only guilty party--and what some of these other countries have 'sown', they are now reaping as well. It's a big mess--but, it's always been this way and always will be this way. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 05:09 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
Now how can you be so right over here and so wrong over on the other thread?
You still listen to Crosby Stills and Nash and the Greatful Dead, don't you? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 586
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 06:00 pm: |
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Chris,
*Ding* wrong again--I totally dislike the musical groups you mentioned.
About being "right" here and "wrong" over there--all these issues are a matter of "choosing the less of the two evils." It really is bittersweet.
Who has the solution to all this mess?
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