| Author | Message | ||
     kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 467 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
"OVERCOMING PERCEPTIONS: African immigrants seek ties, harmony with American blacks"   BY ERIN CHAN FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER February 24, 2005 Onwuka Uchendu hears the questions over and over, from people of all skin tones, but it especially perplexes him when the people asking are black: "Did you have shoes? Did you have a car? Do you have buildings?" they pester him about his life in Africa, as if he had just emerged from the bush. Uchendu, 50, a Nigerian immigrant who lives in Southfield, often becomes so fatigued by ignorant questions, he no longer denies but embellishes. "I say, 'Yes, we have cars, and we have traffic lights, and when they turn green, the cars go through, and when they turn red, the elephants go through,' " he said. "If they want to mock me and embarrass me, then I play the game." It's misconceptions like these, say Uchendu and other African immigrants in metro Detroit, that divide some of them not only from other Americans but other African Americans.  "You can get discrimination from whites and blacks," said Kyrian Nwagwu, 46, an immigrant from Nigeria who became the first African-born councilman in Lathrup Village two years ago. "Some black Americans don't think we're like them or that we're truly black people." African immigrants like Uchendu and Nwagwu said they realize such views are not held by all American-born blacks and that efforts are under way to increase understanding. But rifts linger. For instance, Uchendu, president of the Old Bende Cultural Association, a group of metro Detroit residents who hail from the former Nigerian province of Bende, said he feels no link to Black History Month. "February has no meaning," said Uchendu, a computer engineer on contract with General Motors Corp. "We don't feel a sense of connection." The disconnect has become more evident as the population of sub-Saharan African-born immigrants more than tripled -- rising to 7,324 -- in southeast Michigan since 1990, according to the Lewis Mumford Center for Comparative Urban and Regional Research at the University at Albany in New York. The trend parallels the national increase in immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa, which nearly tripled in the 1990s to roughly 600,000. There are attempts to reach across the cultural divide via educational programs and business partnerships, but reasons for why gaps and misperceptions emerge at all are about as diverse as the 53 countries of Africa. "There's some contentiousness in the black community about black immigrants," said John Logan, a professor of urban sociology and race at Brown University in Rhode Island and coauthor of a 2003 report about black diversity in metropolitan areas. "On the one hand, 'Why aren't they more like us? Why don't they become part of our community? Why are they so separate?' On the other hand, there was a sense that we are all black Americans and we need to stand together. "Both are sources of potential division but also reasons for unity." Divisive backgrounds Beyond divisions created by misplaced stereotypes, other fissures stem from differences in goals, geography, history and income. Africans tend to emigrate, Logan said, because they have money or the hope of obtaining degrees and careers that lead to larger incomes and residency in wealthier neighborhoods. He found that African immigrant households nationally have a median income of $42,900 compared with $33,790 for U.S.-born blacks. He also found that African immigrants tend to live in whiter neighborhoods. In southeast Michigan, according to data compiled by the Lewis Mumford Center, the population is about 45 percent white where African immigrants live but about 17 percent white where U.S.-born blacks reside. Such differences give rise to stereotypes on both sides. "Some African Americans born here feel we are too proud, and sometimes we think they're too lazy and not dedicated," Lafor Olabegi, 48, a Nigerian immigrant and entrepreneur from Eastpointe, said recently as he shopped for smoked fish at K & K African Market in northwest Detroit. Another who senses the separation is Oria Jackson, 60, a Lathrup Village resident who traces her roots to her family's sharecropper days in the South. "It's a feeling. It's the superiority that they present to the Afro American," she said, adding that she still has a good relationship with her neighbor, beautician and chiropractor, all of whom are originally from Africa. "I do feel that, and a lot of it is because of misconception and misunderstanding, mine and in a general sense."  Fleeting encounters between people help feed the stereotypes, said John White, a national spokesman for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Recognition needed Creating more understanding requires the recognition of a significant difference in the histories of American-born blacks and African immigrants, said Steven Camarota, research director at the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, D.C. Separation by hundreds of years and the scar of slavery means American-born blacks may feel more removed from Africa and its immigrants, he said. Christy Coleman, president of the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History in Detroit, said both groups should remember they have a heritage of oppression based on African colonization and American slavery -- and their economic, social and political effects. "The bottom line is that on the world's stage, the conditions of black and brown people are truly deplorable," she said. "That's a point of commonality with which to work." Saying the museum can offer a place to build relationships, she pointed to programming this year with the theme "In the Spirit of Our Ancestors" and to such new, permanent exhibits as "And Still We Rise: Our Journey Through African American History and Culture." On Sunday, Brandi Hampton, 28, of Harper Woods studied a topographic map of Africa at the exhibit with her kids, ages 6 and 8. She said she knows few African immigrants but believes strongly in educating herself and her family about Africa. "It's a part of our history, where we once came from, despite not being born there," she said. Other educational efforts include the Wayne County Community College District's third annual Passport to Africa program, held last month, which highlighted the continent's countries. Organizer David Butty, a Liberian immigrant, said attendance has grown from about 1,500 people the first year to more than 2,300. "My goal since coming to this country has been to help Americans to understand," Butty said. "People still think of Africa as one country." Last year, the 10th Annual African World Expo, hosted in part by U.S. Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, D-Detroit, brought people to Cobo Center for a five-day U.S.-Africa business summit to discuss trade and investment in sectors such as health care and manufacturing. This year's expo is scheduled for the second week of November at Cobo. Other shifts in perspective lie with individuals like Uchendu who, despite having to field frustrating questions about his homeland, has begun to ponder whether immigrants like him should increase their involvement during Black History Month. "Maybe there should be changes," he said. "Maybe it's time to blend with the black community here."  | ||
| Medusa Newbie Poster Username: Medusa Post Number: 17 Registered: 03-2005 Rating: N/A |
I think too the fact that Africans are immigrants which means that they are more people to compete with for jobs. Both Africans and African Americans have misconceptions aobut each other so maybe it is good that they immigrate to the US,to bridge a gap. Also,the term African American now needs to be modified,because this can include African immigrants who are now American citizens and their childrne who are American.I think that African Americans marrying Africans can be good in the cultural arena,because now we can give our children definite cultural roots. | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 483 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
No, MEDUSA....people from Africa are NOT African-American. They are: Sudanese-American, Nigerian-American, Ghanian-American, Ethiopian-American, The term "African-American" was created by a Senegalese man as a title to describe Black Americans, since they do not know what specific country or tribe they are from and must therefore represent the entire continent. But people directly from Africa represent their specific nation and tribe. I am a (Sunni Egypto-Oromo Gisi Waaq) from SUDAN. I am Sudanese-American. My race is "CUSHITIC-NILOTIC". Nyibol, our fellow poster, is a (DINKA), her race is "CUSHITIC-NILOTIC". She is also Sudanese-American. My friend Chinweizu is an (IBO) from Nigeria. His race is "NEGRO". And so on.... | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 484 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
P.S. The Nilotic Race is the "parent" of the Negro race. There are 4 Nilotic Races: Cushitic, Egypto, Negro Nilotic and Aithiop Nilotic. | ||
| Medusa Newbie Poster Username: Medusa Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2005 Rating: N/A |
You really think that the American govt is going to make up those clasifications? No. African immigrants are a new breed of African Americans.Plus people from Africa,and I know this as a fact via knowing people from such countries as Nigeria and Mali and even Ethiopia,they view themselves as black,and have no problem being African American.Being African American does not necessarily menas that you do not know your roots. Trough geneaology traces many African Americans know their roots.It is a term that unifies us,which is what we need as a BLACK RACE.Nilotic,etc are still black. | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 485 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Hi MEDUSA, "YES"...the American Government DOES list African immigrants BY NATION. I know, because I'm one, sister. And when did I say that we're not black??? Who said that? What has our COLOR have to do with our specific racial categories in Africa? WE ALL CALL OURSELVES "BLACK"....but we also call ourselves by our TRIBE, our ETHNICITY and our LANGUAGES--which is VERY important in Africa. When two Africans meet, the first question they ask is: "What is your tribe? Who are your people?" OF COURSE WE ARE BLACK. We can see that with our eyes. SOME tribes---Medusa---"kiss". Other tribes do not believe in "kissing". You need to know this. You really should LEARN from what I'm teaching you, so that you'll begin to understand and KNOW MORE about your own self.....rather than just say "We're all Black and we're all African-American". A Black American eats "corn bread"....an Ethiopian eats "enjera".....a Sudanese eats "kubtz". It's ALL the same, Sister, but its all made different. Negro Nilotic women are world famous for their bit BOOTY. Cushitic Nilotic people are world famous for being TALL, charcoal colored and having long, thin faces. If you know a person's particular Region and Race, then you will not INSULT them by saying or doing something that their culture does not do. | ||
| Nyibol Regular Poster Username: Africanqueen Post Number: 36 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: |
I remember telling one of my teachers in middle school that I wasn't African American, that I was African from Sudan and she said to me that everyone who came from Africa is African American and I didn't believe her. I just shut my mouth just to be respectful. The truth is and what I have seen is that when us Africans come to the US, our little ones automatically are identified as African Americans. They end up fitting into the African American community in America because that is who "they think they are". And well the African adults don't press their language on their children, so the kids forget how to speak their native language. The thing is, America will not identify a tribe or a country of Africa. The Africans are the only ones who are able to do that for themselves. And well even the Black communities already living here segregate themselves from the immigrants because they don't value the same culture. The immigrant children often fit into the American black culture because that is what they find themselves closest to, their own color is African American. There's not a Sudanese school in America, there is an American school with American teachers. Unless the Sudanese decide to have their own school, but there is no money for that and well this is the segregation America was fighting against back in the 50s and 60s. And even so, the parents would have to use American books, television and so fourth. So it's a never ending learning to live the American lifestyle. This will also continue throughout their lives as they continue living in America. At their jobs, at the restaurants they visit, etc. It is not their fault, it is the society they're brought up in. In America, the Africans form their own community just like the white and Black communities already living here. There's the Nigerians, the Sudanese, Ghanians and so fourth. But these are the adults, not the children that gather together and have a community. There is no place for a Nigerian or Sudanese child in that community because the adults don't include their children in the community and it's not that they don't want to; their children already have a culture outside of home and among their American friends. And well the adult have no power over the child to tell the child to live a certain way when the majority of the child's peers is living this other way. These African adults probably knew each other back in Africa or they just find it easy to be around each other because that is who they grew around with. But the children grow up in the American elementary, middle, high schools and American colleges. And often, they don't have people from their own country so they have no choice but to fit in with the Americans. I was the only Sudanese in an ESL classroom in 8th grade. In the whole school as a whole, there was maybe 5 of us Sudanese kids, but the rest among me had already fit in with the American kids so I was out of the picture. I didn't even talk to them at school because they had their own American friends. I felt very left out. Luckily, one of them helped me out and asked me not to speak to her in Swahili, a Kenyan national language, the one language she and I could communicate with that way I would learn English. My tribal African language is what's nationally known as Dinka but she couldn't speak it. Her Sudanese language was Arabic and I don't know much of it. She asked me to try and speak English to her that way I would learn fast and that is how I practiced. And as a result, I forgot Swahili and it's a shame because while in Kenya I worked pretty hard to be able to speak it. But it was worth forgetting it to learn English so I would no longer find myself alone in a school of over 1,000 people. Most of my classmates were Mexicans and Vietnamese, so I often found myself alone while the rest of them communicated and socialized with each other in their own language. I had to fight my way out of that class so I decided I was going to work hard and learn English so I could be in a class with the rest of the English speaking students because I needed friends. And I fought myself out of that class, learned English and by the time I was a sophomore in high school, I was in a regular classroom. I felt much more comfortable there since I was now able to understand everyone, and I made friends. I was happy. I mostly made friends with people that had accents, that came from other countries because the non accent speakers hang out with each other. But I didn't think of it this way at the time, I was just happy I was able to have friends. Most of my friends were Mexicans, Vietnamese, Russians, amd of course Africans. These people among me often fought their way out of this group because they still needed to fit in with the Americans. My philosophy is, children become what they are taught, who they grow up with, what society identifies them as. One out of a thousand will eventually want to be in the thousand because nobody likes to be alone. And when Africans bring their children to America, their children adopt the American culture and forget their language. They don't understand that these children need a place at home and so I see a group of Sudanese children becoming African Americans especially when they get to this country at age 6, 7, 8. I was 14 when I came to the US so I was old enough to not forget. But even people my age that I came with at the time forgot their language and some of them even left their homes by 16, 17 when they found it often difficult to be multicultural. Living between 2 cultures is not easy. How do you teach someone something they have no interest in? After all, one can't force a culture or religion. And it is not easy to teach these children their language because their parents are busy putting in 60 hours a weeek at a minimum wage job. | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 486 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have lived in this country over 20 years. No one has ever called me "African-American". IN SCHOOL, at the Hospital, among Black Americans and Whites, both.....they either called said "She's African" OR "She's Sudanese". On IMMIGRANT CENSUS forms....you cannot write "African-American". You are made to write your specific country. The U.S. Government does not allow people BORN in Africa to write "African-American". You must write your country. Sudanese-American. And ALL of the Black Americans that I KNOW refer to us by our country. If you ask them--"What is Keino?" They will say, "Oh, he's from Senegal." They refer to me as "African" or "Sudanese". _________________ Children "BORN" in this country is a WHOLE other issue. My sons are both "African-American"---because they are BORN here. But their father is Belizian and their mother is Sudanese. | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 487 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
The Ethiopians and Nigerians HATE each other. Try telling Nigerians and Ethiopians that they are "African-Americans". LOL | ||
| Nyibol Regular Poster Username: Africanqueen Post Number: 37 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
LOL, Kola, I didn't know the Ethipians and Nigerians hate each other, but why? For sure I know Africans sure bad mouth about about other Africans, lol. And well I think South Sudanese bad mouth about Nigerians too and I have no idea why. Personally, I have no problem with anyone, I mean when I think of people, I don't think of them as a whole, but individuals in the whole. We're not all the same, we're our own selves. So I don't talk about Nigerians saying, "ooh they're such crappy people" LOL. | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 490 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Hi Nyibol. It was Nelson Mandela who made the joke, "Don't put the Nigerians and Ethiopians at the same table." This is before your time, but SELASSIE (Emperor of Ethiopia) went to the United Nations and said: "Ethiopia is not a BLACK nation." The Nigerian delegates BOOOOED his ass off the podium. Just like MEDUSA, I think of ALL black people as ONE PEOPLE. I really do. But you know how colorstruck and ELITIST the "ruling class" of Ethiopians are....and you know how insecure, GOREGOUS, negroid and PROUD the Nigerians are----and if you read Nurudin Farah's book "GIFTS", he writes a lot about the long standing STRAIN between the Nigerians and Ethiopians. I've been in MANY situations in America where the two groups have come to blows. To me--it's always the Ethiopians's fault. You know how arrogant and snobbish they are, but with a KOLA BOOF mouth on them. So they start shit.....and the Nigerians FINISH it. North Sudanese and South Sudanese, of course, DO NOT GET ALONG very well. But I consider myself part of the South Sudanese and I only really socialize with Dinkas, Nuer or other Cushitic tribes. I don't talk to the Egyptos. But at the MEDAL ceremony coming up---a lot of Egyptians are coming, so you will see me chatting with them. If you really notice....The Ethiopians don't like ANYBODY who isn't Ethiopian. All the rest of the Africans atleast WANT to get along. KOLA | ||
| ABM "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2261 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ladies, All this makes for interesting reading, from a historical standpoint. But what real, practical value does it have? A reasonable person could argue that all of this 'specificity' with respect to African regions, tribes and cultures only provide us with MORE reasons to disagree...which, btw, is largely why/how we've been conquered by others to begin with. | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 492 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
But that's just my point ABM. It's totally UNREALISTIC to expect to have UNITY with these people if you aren't WILLING to know something about who they are, what their culture and beliefs are. You can't just walk in and announce---"We're all BLACK and that's it. We're all African Americans." That's bullshit. I PERSONALLY, will never feel AMERICAN. And I love this country with all my heart. But I am not..in my mind and soul...an American. NEGRITUDE..the common likeness of ALL black people is already REAL and already UNITES us instantly. The people who RESIST being united the most, I have noticed, are BLACK AMERICANS, BLACK BRITISH, NORTH SUDANESE and others who have large numbers of their clan who don't WANT to be black. They deliberately try to join another group---Spaniards or Chinese (Wesley Snipes and Naomi Campbell)---because they don't believe that BLACKNESS is enough by itself. It really does matter---just as RACE matters. People keep insisting that these things don't matter, because they don't want to do THE WORK. And ALL RELATIONSHIPS are work and require "respect", "truthfulness" and "trust". You cant' have that without acknowledging all there is about a person that is available to acknowledge. | ||
| ABM "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2265 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Kola, I agree we should learn to appreciate each other more. But there are scores, if not hundreds, of assorted African countries/tribes. How much about all of them must a person – who will never have any practical application for +95% - learn about them to achieve some more optimum state of Blackness? And you give us African Americans the short shrift. I don’t think there is ANYWHERE a more open and welcoming people than African Americans. We’ve HAD to be such to survive. Be we’ve had to live our lives captives. And to survive our imprisonment, we’ve adopted – often involuntarily - some beliefs and customs that perhaps should be buried with slavery, Dred Scott and Jim Crow (though I'm not sure Snipes and Campbell typify the average Black American/European). Lastly, if you Africans are more motivated to unite than us AA’s, why-o-why is the ENTIRE continent of Africa – which is so rich in human, vegetable and mineral resources - so fractured and lags behind all others in almost all human endeavors? | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 495 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
ABM.... if you know about NILOTICS and Cushites in general...that's about 500 tribes in one fell swoop that you know about. If you know about BANTU, then that's about 1,800 tribes that you know all about in one fell swoop. It's not hard in the least. THIS is what I was trying to tell MEDUSA earlier. The "designations" that I offered her were excellent STARTS for her to become more knowledgeable about "Black People", but she immediately got dismissive. As for the rest of your comments/questions....I am so tired of making a comment that generalizes Black Americans and then having you dash to the DEFENSE of your people---you never seem to do this when I point out the negative aspects of African culture and living in Africa--which is MORE OFTEN than when I point out something negative about living in/being Black American. And it only proves my point---that we are not JUST BLACK, otherwise you would see that I am not putting down "YOUR PEOPLE"--they are my people too----and I have enormous Knowledge about Black Americans that you do not have about Africans--and yet each time I try to SHARE intricate details so that you can have knowledge about Africa (ie. Nilotic vs. Negro), you fail to see that I am GIVING MYSELF to you for our ReUnification---you (like Medusa) take it as something arrogant. I am to a great degree...a Black American if not an American, ABM. Much of what I say about Black America is from the experience of BEING Black American in this country and there are more than enough incidents of me saying bad things about Africa and Africans to show that I truly am not downing "YOUR PEOPLE" or trying to denigrate their history or their outcome. The fact is, Africans have languages (both national and local dialects), Clan Names, thousand year histories of which they are taught DAILY, a plethora of traditions that they LIVE daily----and although they may "lag behind others in human endeavors" and be Poor and destitute----they are INFINITELY more attached by Negritude and bodily CONCENTRATION.....and LESS DEHUMANIZED and "fractured".....than the Black American people just by virtue of the fact that they are in their own land, in their own pure cultures and for the VAST MAJORITY of the continent were never enslaved by Whites or Arabs. Today, I went to the supermarket ABM and to several other stores. I encountered one Black American after another in the aisles who would not acknowledge my presence or each other (this is "the valley" in California) and would not nod to me or say hello. This includes cashiers, workers, fellow shoppers. And yet---they're so friendly and helpful to their white and latino customers. MAKING SURE to acknowledge and smile at THOSE people. Although there are millions of Blacks here in "the valleys" of Southern California---there is NO BLACK COMMUNITY in a true sense. Unlike the LATINOS who are united by "language", tradition and CONSTANT fellowship---their is no unifying cultural ethos anymore for blacks out here (unless its Africans). The Black American men ride one way...the Black American women languish on the vine, IMO, usually congregating in churches. The people come in 150 shades, and because there is no uniformity of looks, the "blacks" spend a lot of time putting each other down and disassociating with blacks who look "too black". And as I pointed out....many of the YOUNG PEOPLE no longer want to even identify as "Black" (granted, this is California--but still--the trends here are moving nationwide and are reflected in the Black Media as being "the norm"). The ENTIRE West Coast now, from Seattle to Portland to San Francisco to Southern California is a network of MILLIONS OF BLACKS---who are ashamed to socialize with each other in public. People like yourself, who live in STRONG BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS and have STRONG BLACK FAMILIES...are like Ostriches who bury their heads in the sand, refusing to believe that what is National and Pandemic...will also become the reality of your neighborhoods someday, too. And you fail to see that this is how the LATINOS came and took over the U.S. from the Blacks......this is how The Black Church fell apart and became powerless.....this is how Blacks lost VOTING POWER.... ....because as "niggerized thinkers", it's just not important to you (or me) to TAKE A STAND for anything one way or the other. Black Americans do not take stands that are against their SPONSOR. And because you refuse to stand for yourself---you fall for everyone else. This place is ANOTHER PLANET compared to how Blacks in an African society live with one another, ABM. By the numbers, there are almost no other races in Africa...BUT BLACK PEOPLE (890 MILLION black people and maybe 2% outsiders). So I ask you....how can you dispute my claim that Africans are more united than Black Americans? That is not a put down of your people, your culture, etc. If anything, I am an advocate for saving, preserving and fighting for YOUR PEOPLE and YOUR CULTURE. But you keep missing the BIG PICTURE of what my words are saying. Humanity is NOT ENOUGH. In order to successfully build a viable, thriving, healthy Black Nation...you MUST HAVE the thing itself...."overwhelming blackness", and my point, continuously, is that what black people CLAIM they want---what they say out of their mouths---is not truly what they MEAN, because their ACTIONS and DEEDS reveal a whole nother nexus. Colonialism has "niggerized" Africans...just as Slavery has "niggerized" Black Americans. If only we could get the majority of Blacks in power to admitt that we are Niggerized---then we could save Africa (which no black can be free until Africa has been redeemed and RE-CLAIMED by all Blacks, worldwide). AFRICA the continent is like Michael Jackson the man. It has become a SYMBOL of the total ongoing defeat of the Black race worldwide. Our race is just as much under attack TODAY as it was in 1693...and MANY of the attackers are "Blacks", just as in 1693. | ||
| ABM "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2271 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Kola, Kola. One could argue it is YOU who's more inclined to segregate yourself from AA's than we are from you. You've said you've never viewed yourself to be American. Well, I can assure you that in spite of our criticism of how Americans have often mistreated us, most Blacks born/bred in this country view themselves as Americans. H*ll! If there's ANYONE who's earned that designation it has been us. And I’m not defending the AA perspective as much as I am explaining it. I read somewhere that Caucasians have dominated the world largely on the strength of 3 concepts: The Scientific Method, Capitalism and Democracy. I'm inclined to agree. And until we Blacks understand that, we'll continue to struggle with the issues you cite. PS: How can you allow people to be free then feel justified in controlling how they wield their freedom? | ||
| kola@aalbc.com Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 500 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
I'm the future Queen of Sudan, ABM. It requires that I become set in my ways. | ||
| ABM "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2273 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
*bowing*  |
