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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 10:45 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

R Kelly was in court yesterday.

I was reading a local alternative journal--The St. Louis Riverfront Times, and, in an article about the effects of this scandal on his popularity it stated that on the tape in question he urinated on the 14 year old girl after having sex with her.

I was stunned. In all the hoopla I missed that. Apparently I am the only one. Out of dozen people I have queried, some of them quite close to me who I see everyday, only one stated that she didn't know about that.

Maybe it is because we are not R. Kelly fans. Maybe it is because it hasn't been played up.

Now I understand the fury and outrage of many who wonder why he is still popular--though I am not so sure I agree with it.

What do you think? Did you know about this? Did it change your opinion of Kelly? Do you think people should boycott him or his appearances for this?
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 11:10 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I knew about Kelly's indulging his "golden shower" fantasy. The claim is also being made that the girl in question was not 14 years old but older. R. Kelly can atone for his mistakes by not repeating them. But this man is a hedonist who has never exhibited any integrity or adhered to any principles but his own selfish ones. I might listen to his music but I wouldn't buy his records or attend his concerts.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 12:47 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How do you feel now when you listen to his music. I remember when we had the discussion about Miles awhile ago. I have in the past listened to and enjoyed the music of many miscreants--Louis Armstrong--pothead. Duke Ellington--libertine. Charlie Parker--junkie. James Brown--general a**hole. Jimi Hendrix--screwup. Sly Stone--dope addict. George Clinton--substance abuser and devil worshipper--and on and on and on. I dug the music but didn't necessarily support the lifestyles.

Is there a time to draw the line?

I am not a fan of R. Kelly's--I remember this one song I liked "I wish" and I ended a novel I wrote with some kids singing "I believe I can Fly" (should I change the song to "I ain't gon' bump no mo wit no big fat woman"?)--his fans tell me that he does not promote his urinary fetishes in his music--

Is this one too much? And does it say something, as some say, about the Black Community if we will not turn our backs on him?
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 02:18 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm not a big fan of R. Kelly's music. He's a run-of-the-mill crooner. I can listen to his music if it's being played, but he's not a performer I would spend money to see or hear. If I do appreciate an exceptionally-talented artist who also happens to have a bad reputation, I admit, I tend to compartmentalize my sentiments. The "Black Community" is not of one mind and never will be; it's an entity that is its own worst enemy.
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She Deserved It

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 03:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, it speaks volumnes about the black community when left and right black men are putting million dollar rings on the fingers of white girls but urinating on black ones, throwing them off bridges, generally using them for sex and humiliating them publicly as a means of having someone to step on, someone left to look down on.

I can understand how others won't see it as pandemic as I do, but if you look at the images that we are projecting of ourselves, we are not just our own "worst enemy" as Cynique says, but we have a death wish. Spike Lee's speech today at Brown University about the destruction of the black community by way of Hip Hop culture and blatantly internalized hatred for black mothers (bitches 'n Ho's) was timely indeed.

A rich powerful black man (Russell Simmons) stood up to defend Eminem's disrespect of "black women". Comments made by a white man that weren't directed at ALL females, but directed by race to an entire group. He said--"Black girls are bitches, white girls are good". Apparently white women, latinas, Asian women--none of them dump their boyfriends.

Only black women are called "golddiggers"--yet Micheal Jackson, Kobe Bryant, O.J., Micheal Jordan and quite a few black men have recently been TAKEN to the cleaners...by WHITE golddiggers.

A year ago--Asian-Korean men tore into Puff Daddy's behind about comments he made in a song against Asian girls--he publicly apologized, the offending record disappeared and the Asians stood in his face while he did it.

6'4 Dr. Dre brutually beat and hospitalized a 5'5 black woman D.J. a few years back--because another rapper made disparaging remarks about him on the radio and she laughed. I understand Dr. Dre (who gave the world Eminem) is married to a white woman and has publicly said that black women "come a dime a dozen".

I hear young black teenaged boys of late are claiming that the reason they didn't protect black women in slavery times is because "those bitches wanted it".

I am 53. I am beginning to agree that our community is not only out of control, but that most of us older blacks perpetuate these circumstances by not turning our backs on the people creating this atmosphere (as Chris Hayden suggested we should). Smoking pot or being a communist is nothing compared to the complete gutterization and hatred of "black folks" in America.

Many people on this board have the attitude that it's none of their business. But that's how the society gets out of hand in the first place.

The black community needn't be of "one mind" to have some standards and some self-respect related directly to black identity and black experience, Cynique. We can be as divergent as we want to be and still have the coda that--"You urinate on one child, you've urinated on all our children".

Furthermore, Cynique, it's been documented that R. Kelly has had sex with MANY girls 14 and 15 years old besides the one in the videotape. No matter how you word it Cynique, you're supporting/condoning/protecting a "Child Molester" for two reasons 1) He's talented. 2)It used to be socially acceptable for men to sex underage girls and still is in most of the world.

Who cares how these girls lives/brains become twisted after being used in this manner. As long as it's not our own child--we plain don't care.

I often wonder--how does a 14 year old girl learn to have sex like a pro? The record says she lost her virginity at 11. Did she WANT it at 11?

Who is creating all these young black girls who WANT IT at 10, 11, 12, 13. Or is our community just looking the other way--because we don't value little black girls in the first place?

Someone said months ago, "silence equals consent".

The novel "PUSH" by Sapphire didn't ring true to me when I first read it, but now, I see how it was a metaphor for the entire black community. Our daughters in record numbers are being sexualized and discarded by a "New Black Culture" that says its OK to destroy black women--because we don't really want them anyway.

Notice how every time some evil befalls a black woman at the hands of a black man--our community comes up with a reason why SHE DESERVED IT.









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Becky

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 04:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know what? All this weaping and wailing you're doing, She Deserved It, and watch how YOUR man comes to ME because you won't shut your little black trap. R.Kelly could tinkle on me or almost any one of us ANYDAY and you won't see us going on and on about it, we'd just sue his behind and shut the heck up, but noooo, all you do is complain, complain, complain. Don't you see all your black men get tired of that? Keep complaining and I WILL BE FORCED TO CALL YOU A RACIST! I'LL DEW IT, I SWEAR I'LL FRIGGIN' DEW IT!!!!


*B.W.S.* ((snicker))
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She Deserved It

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 05:29 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Becky..."I AM" a black man. I'm not female.

My lament was regarding the general black community, not the state of one on one affairs.

My discourse comes as one who is a black father, a loving husband to my wife (I hope) and the father of sons.

I hardly see what your childish rant was really about, but I do think that if black women "sued" as you say, they still would not have the support of the black community per "respect for black women" as a component of our community. Race plays an intricate part in how we "devalue" our own children in the black community, as Cornel West has pointed out, just as we did during slavery time.

I don't think black women complain enough, actually, and that's the problem.


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Anonymous

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 05:52 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello She Deserved It,

You make some valid points. As a black man with sons, how do you propose we encourage our black sons to stop "putting million dollar rings on white girls and urinating on black ones"? I am a black woman with young daughters and a son and I'm really beginning to worry that my daughters' self esteem could be adversely impacted by being the ones that are always left out of the social dating scene. The black boys I've seen lately always seem to have a white girl (or non-black girl) hanging on their arms. I never, or should say rarely, see black girls with boys outside of their race. I think it's partly because they are not as highly desired and glamorized as the white girls are.

I'm not necessarily saying let's save the race by promoting dating within your race exclusively, but I am concerned that my daughters will not have a normal adolescence where boys have crushes on them and they on them because of the current trend of things.

I might be worrying unnecessarily. But it does bother me when high profile black men make such a show of their white women. (Tiger Woods is the most recent example.)
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Dr. Grove

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 06:12 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous, I really don't know the answer.

I think this situation is bigger than all of us. The only thing you can do is try to make your own black sons aware of the disparity and what it stems from. Surely, this is a bi-product of racism. The white woman being a status symbol (even more so in black communities) and the black man attaining the status of "normality" by choosing white. Having children less black/negroid is obviously another factor.

Black males pretty much copy the behavior of their fathers and public figures. White women are greatly desired by adult black men, so they speak well of THOSE women to their sons.

I think the situation is actually worse than you think. We simply went from dating "high yellow" women to getting the white ones that those yellow women were the stand ins for in the first place. This is a direct result of racial idiation.

My sons are with black girls. My wife (who is black but could almost pass for white) and I are grateful for that.

Best of luck to you.

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PassingThrough

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 06:30 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do anyone know the percentage of Black men who marry non Black women? Is the figure even 10%? I think many are worrying about something unnecessarily and something they can't control, who others marry. To reference a relative few and ignore the many or majority just is a waste.

Regarding R. Kelly there is enough blame to go around for everyone involved to own up to their share.
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Dr. Grove

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 06:43 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Passing Through.

Black men, generally--don't GET MARRIED.

Take Los Angeles. I read a study saying 68% of black men in L.A. are "dating" Non-Black partners...but 84% of MARRIED black men in L.A. were with black women.

For the first time in history--more "biracial" children were born in the last census than "black" for the state of California. You can look this up on the web--Census Data.

Only 28% of the black men in L.A. are Married. Most of those are older than 43.

That means that marriage statistics are meaningless fewer people black or white are getting married, but especially black women are the least married people in the country all of a sudden.

Dont hold me to this because I don't live in California, but we've all seen the situation since the 80's. The media makes it look as if ALL black men want a white woman and the black men aren't doing a thing to dismiss those notions.

If you know what I mean.


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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, December 03, 2003 - 07:25 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whooooooa, "She Deserved It"! I'm not condoning or supporting R. Kelly and I register my disapproval of him by not buying his records or attending his concerts. When I confessed to compartmentalizing my reactions to black artists acting badly, I had in mind real genuiuses like Jimi Hendrix and Miles Davis and Charlie Parker, none of whom were guilty of statutory rape.
Yes, I blame the hip-hop culture for the sad state of this younger generation, but I also blame the materialistic black bougeoise who don't have their priorities straight. A recent study showed that the children of all these upscale black status seekers are much too ignorant about things they should know something about. Why? Because their parents are too busy lavishing on them all the superficial things that do nothing to cultivate the mind. And I certainly see evidence of this when I try to carry on an intelligent conversation with these shallow designer conscious kids who are anything but well-rounded individuals. The bling-bling lifestyle pervades all classes of AAs. What is the answer to this dilemma? I sure don't have it. Each one, teach one. Maybe.
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Beautifulwaterstar

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Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 11:59 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL@ She Deserved It. I really, really, REALLY wanted to keep on messin' wit'cha but my conscience just wouldn't allow me because
1)You seem very passionate
2)I didn't want Chris getting ticked wit' me for hijacking his post with my lil' silliness. lol

Anyway, I was just messing with you, Hon. I do that from time to time. hehe

Looks like an interesting discussion brewing. Can't wait to read and give my two cents that ain't nobody ask for in the first place. :-)
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Cynique

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Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 12:53 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought "Becky" sounded like you, Beautifulwaterstar. You're soooo naughty! But sometimes humor does put things in perspective. Yuk-Yuk.
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PassingThrough

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Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 06:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dr Grove, what is the source of this study?

First you said, that 84% of married black men in LA had a spouse of the same race and then you said that only 28% of the black men in LA are married. Are you saying that out of 28% of Black men that are married 84% of those are married to a Black woman?

If a person's parents are of two different races, is the child bi-racial? Black folk been upset for years about the one drop rule, and now that there are more options to identity one's self, folks are still complaining.
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ABM

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Posted on Thursday, December 04, 2003 - 08:32 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As we will likely agree, the pathologies you all have so eloquently recounted are largely the consequence of slavery, racism & colonization. But these issues, as great as they are, are only the products of this one overriding truth: We Africans for the better part of a millennium can't and won't rule ourselves.

Simply: If you can't control what you are made to think and do, you will likely engage in wild, harmful, self-destructive behavior.

Left to our own individual devices, we human beings are often very selfish and reckless. Morality - as well as other valued institutions such as religions, matrimony, governments, etc. - have been created and maintained primarily to keep us from destroying each other and ourselves. But standards and ethics can only be effectively promulgated when a people/society has the will, resources and power to enforce the desired behavior.

How can we Black people teach and maintain productive & wholesome values when so much of what we think and do can be so easily and effectively usurped by others?

Until Blacks can achieve some material degree of social, economic and scholarly self-determination, independence and even dominance, all the problems that we continually cite will continue...and worsen.



BTW: Its is interesting how Chris' initial observations about the squalid R. Kelly affair has so quickly digressed into the ever-popular "lemme tail ya wat's 'rong wit da Black man" session.
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 02:42 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe we should add the late-great Marvin Gaye to the contradictory scroll of Black "virtuosos-villians". Because apparently he had more in common with R. Kelly than just platinum-selling records.

http://aolsvc.peopleconnection.africana.aol.com/articles/daily/mu20031113randm.a sp
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Cynique

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 01:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Marvin Gaye's daughter Nona Gaye, while still in her teens, was the "love slave" of Prince for several years, according to his latest biography
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 03:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,
If what you say about Prince & Nona Gaye is true, I guess this is a harsh example of the Biblical proverb (I think it is somewhere in the Book of "Numbers") of the 'Sins of the Father {Marvin} being visited upon his children {Nona}'.

And that Prince might freely admit to possibly abusing Gaye simply confirms how arrogant and deluded he is and how pervasive such prurient behavior likely is among others of his ilk (including of course R. Kelly, Michael Jackson, etc.).

When you say that Nona Gay was "...still in her teens..." during her years as Prince's "love slave", is it correct to assume that at some point she had NOT reached the age of consent? If so, I wonder has the Statute of Limitations expired on charging Prince with Statutory Rape.


BTW: The best thing about the Matrix II and Matrix III films was I got to gawk at Nona for a little while (I believe she was cast in replacement of the tragically departed Aaliyah.). Nona Gaye is FOINE!
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 03:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Possible Correction: In the second paragraph of my last post, I mistakenly assume that Prince admits to having illicit relations with Nona Gaye. I apologize if I am in error.
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Cynique

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 06:52 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the book said Nona was 17 and that she was a very willing participant in this liaison and was heartbroken when he ended their relationship. She was also heavily into drugs at the time. I doubt if Prince ever admitted anything about this situation but, according to his biographer, it was common knowledge among the Minnesota music community.
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 07:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,
I don't know if a 17 year old can legally consent to sex in Minnesota. But do you feel that someone that age should be able to consent to sex with a grown (and very weird little) man?
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 07:16 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh. Thanks for clarifying things, Cynique.
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Cynique

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Posted on Saturday, December 06, 2003 - 08:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In answer to your question, ABM, as to whether I think a 17-year old girl should be able to consent to sex with a weird little seducer, my facetious answer is: only if she secretly tapes what they are doing and sues or blackmails her sugar daddy later for a bundle of money. LOL Nona's mother knew about what was going on but she was battling her own drug demons. Crazy situation, crazy world.
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yukio

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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 03:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM: How are you? Don't take this the wrong way, but i wish we stop talking about pathologies as if everyone is sane, but black people. I don't disagree, however, that slavery, racism, colonialism are partially responsible for our present conditions, but at the same time, other folk are as fucked up as us, though, as you've eloquented written, we are not in control of power....so please don't take this a critique, but perhaps a suggestion or a modification of what you've said!

Best Wishes,
Yukio

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ABM

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Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 07:05 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Yukio. I am good. I hope that you are as well.

No need to pre-apologize for what you think/say. But I do wonder how what specific kind of "modification" my prior comments require.

I didn't assert or imply that Blacks suffer SOLELY from the aforementioned frailties. But we are often most acutely impacted by them. For example, White women and men get breast and prostate cancer too. But since I am Black and Black women and men die of those cancers at a much higher rate than Whites, I might be more inclined to emphasize how WE should do protect ourselves.

And again, because the specters of slavery/racism/colonialism shrouds so much of what we Black people are made to do, become, see, think and feel; when assessing one's troubles, it is often very difficult to segregate one's personal failings from the prejudiced environment that likely helped to create and foster them.

Warm regards to you as well, Yukio.


ABM
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ABM

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Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 07:06 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok Cynique, let's put this tawdry Gaye family thing all together now. Shall we?

Sex-crazed singer/pedophile Marvin Gaye falls for and deserts his wife for an underage hottie, to which he later marries. The hottie gives birth to beautiful little girl Nona while the mother herself is just 17-years old. Gaye later in apparently a drug-induced stupor threatens and is shot dead by his Bible-thumping daddy, who is exonerated of murder. Nona grows into a beautiful girl. But because of her departed sire and her drugged-out momma ('dope' dejavu), Nona become the 17-year old love-slave of yet another sex-crazed singer/pedophile, Prince ('pooh' dejavu), who then later casually discards her like yesterday's trash.

But, undaunted, the spunky Nona uses her bit part in the (flopping) Matrix sequels to build a superstar movie career. The now rich and famous Nona falls in love with the handsome and dashing ABM (AKA "Tripod"). But, alas, her hero is already married. So, fearing she can't live without him, Nona begs to become ABM's willing and generous concubine/baby momma, to which he graciously obligue. Then together, Nona and ABM (and his wife) live happily everafter (Sorry. Whet dream.)


Come on now, yawl! I can't be the only one who smells Emmy-winning screenplay here. The Lifetime Channel (or soapers like "The Young and The Restless (or Shameless)" would be all over that one.
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Cynique

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Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 12:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, ABM, they say "art imitates life." But if I were you, I wouldn't clear any space in my trophy case for an award-winning statuette.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 03:31 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:

I love it. My people will get in touch with your people.

Why is ABM aka "Tripod"--I shudder at the answer--but I am a DOM. If you went there, don't say it. This is a family site.
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 08:53 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bet that Chris. Maybe we should first do the metrosexual thing and go get teased and gussied up at a Beverly Hills day spa and Gucci's. Then we can crank out a deal as we dine (and feel-up nubile waitresses) at Spago's. And then we can top off the evening with a couple of newly-minted call girls. (Hahaha!)


And yeah, I admit the "Tripod" quip was a bit naughty. But it just seemed to fit the flow of what I was writing.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:

So I WAS right (half relieved, half shocked).

Oh well. It looks like I am not the only one who has been listening to a lot of Funkadelic music lately.

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