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AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board » Culture, Race & Economy - Archive 2003 » Return of the Pimp « Previous Next »

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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 05:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It seems everywhere I look today there are all these stories about rappers and musicians copping the pimp style--as though in the day of supercriminal drug lords and terrorists the pimp is a cuddly almost nostalgic character--Antonio Fargas' Huggy Bear as opposed to Sweet Jones the monstrous uberpimp in Iceberg Slim's memoirs.

Don't anybody know what these guys do and who they do it to, the drug addiction, violence, disease, insanity, prison, the degradation at the root of it all, or is it anything for the style and the bling bling?
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Soul Sister

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 09:19 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have to appreciate your point -- Chris. And I must agree there are some serious problems with identifying with a criminal element. However, if we put the culture aside - the concept of a pimp to me is a self serving self absorbed business person and for some reason this ideology is rampant in business, government and routine life.

Oh well, as for the culture of rap/hip-hop music it is criminal and shameful that the legacy of conscious commentary has been abased to half-naked, foul mouth degenerates -- flossing and banking - but who is buying the music??? And who is really making the loot??

Peace
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:36 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Soul Sister:

That is a deep point--that the pimp psychology--the selfishness, amorality, cruelty, hedonism, style over substance is now part of the society.

I dread what that may portend for us all.
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Yukio

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 11:30 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dare say, that the "pimp psychology," style over substance, etc....has always been part of the culture....young black men have always respected pimps...and these kids don't anything about real pimps....it's just entertainment and flossing, just music...i'm sure many of our younger 20 and 30 sumthin black professional essence readers bump to PIMP...but they would rarely allow a man to mistreat them....they has to be some room for leisure/play/sexuality...the music is nothing but male bravado, etc....again, nothing new. Consider, that these young black and white women have opposing images, which identify female empowerment and chastise double standards......

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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 01:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

Some young black men have envied pimps--I hesitate to say respect. Iceberg Slim stated that most of the men he ran across especially in jail hated pimps.

I daresay your middle class youngsters did not respect or envy them--mostly young street guys. As a youngster I was envious of the money they flashed and the fact that they were in the clubs and always around women and it seemed people tried to know them--I didn't care for the style though--the costumes and the cars were too loud and effeminate.

I thought with the advent of the big time drug dealer, who made more money than any pimp ever could, that the pimp was reduced to chumpdom--I guess like Superfly styles and bad pennies, they keep turning up.

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Cynique

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 01:52 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The pimp mentality is not just unique to black culture, it exists across the board in all races and all classes because at its core is the idea of a idle, manipulative man who lives off the profits of someone else's livlihood. This definition can apply to any male, especially preachers and politicians. And, Prince Phillip of England is the consummate pimp. He has never worked a day in his life but as the consort of Queen Elizabeth he lives a life of leisure and luxury.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 02:25 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynqiue:

That's right. Imagine my shock at reading Nelson Algren (a Chicago area writer) and he writes about Polish-American pimps and junkies. I guess that is what Dan Duryea's character, Johnny, is in that Fritz Lang film noir with Edward G. Robison (I can't call the title).

I guess there are pimps of all races creeds and colors (and classes?)/

Somebody needs to do a book on this. The Pimp through history and across many lands.
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Yukio

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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 04:09 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is more about style, nothing more nothing less, that has been the attraction through the ages---not social, moral, and economic dynamics of pimpin'! Though some folk actually get into the game to make ends meet....

I think that since "Pimpin" is in, most of these young middle class black and white men attempt to appropriate the "pimp" bravado in their "game." They don't have to use the language, but it is more or less how they socialize with women and how the women respond to the men.....the values, exploitation, etc...need not be internalized, though it may be suggested in the songs!
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ABM

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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 02:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree a lot of the current faux-pimping is just about trying to "cop a style" and an attitude of some sort that presumably can be effectively used to glamorize oneself and manipulate others. Although, to a weak mind, there can appear to be something uniquely (though' demonically) alluring about someone who has the audacity and capability to require others to sell the usage of their genitalia.

I knew several pimps while I was growing up. One of my cousins and 2 fathers of childhood friends were in the flesh-peddling game. (I saw and heard things that no prepubescent child has any business witnessing.) The thing that I remember most about them is that they talked a lot without really saying much of anything. And they had the capacity to appear supremely confident, that what they were doing was actually in the best interest of the women who served them. It, of course, was all a ruse, as the whores were often a lot tuffer than their "daddies".

And there are MANY non-Black pimps operating around the US and beyond. And some of them are more nasty and malevolent than the fictitious "Huggy Bear" and Chicago's legendary "The Magic Don Juan" ever thought to be. Right now, throughout the US/World, there are 10,000's of Russian, Eastern European, Central/South American and Asian women who are being viciously beaten, raped and forced by White/Asian/Hispanic "pimps" to pleasure upwards of 25 "John's" per day. I recall reading about a sex ring of this sort in Florida that was recently broken up.

But I concur with others who say the biggest pimps are the Bush's, Cheney's, Blair's of the world. You are doing some serious pimpin' when you can doctor up fallacious reasons for sacrificing the sons/daughters of poor and lower middle American families while creating Billion $ fortunes for your own families, who will never be made to die senselessly in a foreign land.

Chris, you are correct that pusher will often make a lot more cash in a shorter period time than a pimp. But the life of a dealer is much more dangerous. Because of the great potential profitability of drugs, all dealers will eventually have to war with rival pushers. And anti-drug policing/prosecuting is much more aggressive and pernicious than are those against prostitution. Actually, the pimp rarely if ever is arrested, much less convicted because he is rarely if ever at the scene of the crime. And "possession" of a prostitute, unlike drugs, is not illegal in of itself. So unless a hooker can convincingly (& bravely) say, "He made me do it!", the pimp gets away Scott-free.

Cynique, you decry the pimpin' of Prince Phillip, but what work has Queen Elizabeth ever done herself other than be, along with Bush Jr., born into the Lucky Sperm Club.
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:51 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, in decrying Prince Phillip,I wasn't absolving Queen Elizabeth. They are both leeches. But in keeping with the definition of a Pimp, Prince Phillip fills the bill because he is an unemployed man who is being taken care of by a woman.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:53 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:

I knew a boss playa (baller, high roller) like you would get summa dis---now we need to hear from Troy and Thumper so we can really tighten up our game (I almost want to go out and buy a big hat)

--I guess you and everybody else here is right--the people are looking at the style of it and not the ugly reality.

It is something though--for me it was like when a bunch of the brothers got to straightening their hair again in the 70's (after the natural, black is beautiful, etc) in imitation of Ron "Superfly" O'Neil--one step forward two steps back.

Oh well, the natural is coming back again
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Yukio

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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 06:27 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What about female pimps?
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ABM

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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:18 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio, aren't "madams" female pimps?

My wife and I recently watched the documentary "Pimps up, Ho's down", which included and I think was produced by actor/rapper and a former pimp himself Ice T. The movie told the inside dope of "the game" mostly from the perspective of the pimp. I must (shamefully) admit that my eyes were riveted to the screen. Actually, I think my almost involuntary reactions to the movie frighten my wife.

A segment of the film featured a female pimp. She was clearly of the masculine lesbian sort and her "flock" kissed/cuddled her as if she were a man. What was interesting about the lady pimp was her women were strippers, not prostitutes. At least that's what she and her girls seemed to "proudly" exclaimed. There seemed to be some resentment of her by her male peers but the antagonism was waning. I guess because, strangely, pimps seem to, more than other criminals, have a warped appreciation for each other. It's almost like the style and success of other pimps builds up your own esteem and credibility.

Chris, don't get me started on emulating a pimp. After I saw the movie, I temporarily regressed into fancies of "pimpology". Started blaring CD's James Brown "Paid the Cost to Be the Boss" and Curtis Mayfield's "Supafly". Started looking for my 70's vintage purple butterfly collar shirt and powder blue platform shoes. Started talking fast, interjecting "See what um saying, Baby?", "Say, hey baby! Whatchu got for your daddie? I even let out a "The B''s betta have my money!" But after the B-word, my wife put a kibosh on all that.

I still wouldn't mind having a red convertible '72 deuce-in-a-quarter with plush white interior though.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 10:44 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

At it again, eh? The ones I have seen have tended to emulate the male style--I saw Pimps Up Ho's Down and the woman in question was called Big Lex, I think. She wore lids, pants, shirts all masculine. I guess a woman could be a feminine pimp--then again could a woman be so cold hearted as to beat up a sick woman and demand she get out and get her money?

ABM: What is it with that, anyway? That's why we have to crack down on it, it's so insidious and seductive! I notice myself I can decry pimpdom all day and then see Bishop Magic Don Juan or White Folks or Money Mike and start pimpstrolling and talking about my game and doing that psychotic little coke laugh.
The other day I started calling myself Mr. Biggs. Let's start a chapter of Playas Anonymous!
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Yukio

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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 10:43 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:
"I guess a woman could be a feminine pimp--then again could a woman be so cold hearted as to beat up a sick woman and demand she get out and get her money?"

Of course a woman could! Are you so naive, seriously, to think that only men can be ruthless about their business? Have you ever heard of Margaret Thathcher? As tha manager/owner(?) of First Avenue in Purple Rain said to Prince in his dressing room," Dis iz a bi-nez!"
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ABM

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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 01:46 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,
You are right about how seductive faux pimpin' can be. I was talking to my brother-in-law about "Pimps Up..." and both of us broke into "fits" of pimp walkin' and playa speak. Our women were pissed.

Part of me wants to say that this just outlandish fun. But I can't help thinking the allure of the "pimp" stems from some very unflattering elements of the masculine character: Desires to subjugate women and to be unabashed revered and adored. If you strip away ethics/morality/decency, you might say the following: To compel a woman to have sex with you is powerful, but to make her bed someone else then have her bring her carnal earnings to you is all-powerful.

I believe it was Ice-T who said that at the end of the day, everything a man, no matter his position/status, does what he does to be able to consistently get laid. And since the pimp is the gatekeeper of an ample supply of what men want without restrictions/commitments, Pimps rule the earth.

And look at how a pimp dress and tell me that what they are trying to do is different from what monarchs try to do, wear clothing and project a persona that effects an indelible image of flare, style and daring. I mean, look at some of those outfits that rulers of ALL cultures wear, and you will know what I am talking about. The pimp dresses and acts as he does because he fancies himself to be the "King" of the 'hood.

Hell! Look at the outfit The Pope wears and tell me he's not pimp styling when he performs mass.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 11:13 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:

You truly laid down some deep science on that one, my brother (are you sure you weren't, at one time, in The Life?) I mean it. This was good essay material--especially in light of the Return of Big Pimpin'. If you don't do it I'm going to steal yo ideas (move in on yo' stable, so to speak--tell the editors this essay CHOSE me)

Yukio: Iceberg Slim opined that pimps hate their mothers or at least women. Can a woman hate other women that much to degrade them--or am I being sexist in assuming that they are, on the whole, more empathetic. I remember now this article on female pimps in I think Vibe magazine--that they run their stables more with positive reinforcement than brutality.

Could you really see yourself telling some poor woman to get out in the rain and walk between the raindrops? Seems to me all part of the Sadomasochistic part of the relationship--oddly, it almost always ends up, according to Slim, with the prostitutes revenging themselves on the pimps and destroying him.
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yukio

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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 12:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:
I look at people as human beings first, and humans in general have the ability to be malicious and physically abusive.

Iceberg Slim opined....thats not enough for me. (Sidebar, much of your analysis seems to rely on individuals and your personal experiences. Since i think that we can all way around the block together and have different experiences, one experience does not persuade me; it only tells but what you or anotha person experienced.)

I'm sure that all male pimps are not brutal.
Regardless of what the pimp's sex is, if selling sex is the degradation, then it doesn't matter who runs the stable with more positive reinforcement. You are confusing, i believe, the relationship and form with the content and character/substance of the relationship.

Put it this way, if you read slave narratives and the history of slavery in the Americas, it is clear that the institution was not the same everywhere, slaves produced different crops, lived on different islands with different topographies, etc...not all slave master's were brutal....but the relationship between the slave and the master remained the same! The problem was not primarily in the harshness of the institution, the problem was with the institution itself, which was the commodification a human, regardless of the character of the master...this is also true of the pimp/whore situation!
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 02:03 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

Once again you started out good, then in the heat of trying to carry the day you got carried away with your rhetoric and turned out so obtuse and theoretical as to be beyond vague. At a certain point you have to realize that you are out of ammunition.

Slim was a pimp. I have known pimps. But what they told me tended to glamorize or soft soap or justify what they were doing.

I take it you have not been a pimp. Your ruminations on the subject therefore lack any basis in personal experience. They are theoretical. Iceberg Slim opined based on his own experience and his up close observation of other pimps. I must say that most persons would give greater weight to even his opinion on the subject that someone who has not.

Slave narratives? Stay on the subject. We're talking about Big Pimpin'.


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Yukio

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Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 04:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It was vague, to you...its very simple....

If we are talking about degradation, then do all humans, regardless of sex, have the potential to degrade? I say yes!

Is the significant degradation the relationship between the whore and pimp and/or is the character of the relationship?

You focused on character(treatment) in order to discuss the possible different treatment between male and female pimps.

I, on the other hand, focus on the relationship, since the natural relationship between the pimp and prostitute is fundamentally degrading. It doesn't matter is it's a good pimp or bad pimp...the problem is pimping itself, so that position of pimping eradicates, in my opinion, the question of sex, since both can physically degrade.

To reiterate: The relationship, pimp and whore, is degrading not the treatment. If this is true, then the fact that there are female pimps is irrelevant as it pertains to sex if the relationship between a pimp and a prostitute is degrading.

Hierarchy:
pimp
whore

pimp owns the majority whore's labor.

Examples:
A)Pimp Erica whips and smacks whore sheila everyday day, just to let her know that she is the boss.
B)Pimp David does not whip and smack whore stephanie, only when she makes a mistake.

Analysis:
In both cases we have physical degradation of different degrees. One is abused everyday and the other is primarily disciplined. Yet, both are fundamentally degraded, because the treatment does not change the relationship, which is, regardless of how "civil" the pimp treats the prostitute, the whore remains a whore.


The same goes for slave/master relationship....perhaps if you take time to read then you could understand.
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 09:17 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, thanks for the props. Naw I was never actually in "The Life". But I was close enuff to it to spy how it works. As a kid, I hung out in a room full of barebreasted ho's, rode in pimp mobiles, seen disobedient ho's get beat down and listened to pimps/playas run there game. That's nothing I am particularly proud of. That's just how I came up.

I must admit, there a part of pimpin' that is very seductive. Seeing foine women at a brothah's beck-n-call, giving them money, calling them "daddie" & "poppa" kinda has an affect on the young male psyche.

Don't mind me, my brothah. Go on and write your essay. And if I feel incline to, I'll do the same. Because, like my Big Pimpin cousin JC might say, "Do yer thang, lil' Playa. 'Cause finding stuff to write about is as easy as finding ho's, ders plenty uh dem to go around."

Pimping is not just about selling sex. It's about forcefully, manipulatively wielding dominion over another human being whereby she will do anything/everything to satify what you require. The sexual exploitation of women in the pimp-ho paradigm is itself just the mechanism by which the manipulation safely generates money for the pimp. The mentality of a pimp is such that he would just as soon prostitute a man as he would a woman if the market for male prostitutes was as accessible, viable and lucrative.

Pimps don't just pimp ho's. They play the local police departments, who often look the other way so as to conveniently partake of the pimp's "stock". They pimp witless family members, friends, flunkies, and neighbors of favors, monies, protection from adversaries, etc. I have seen pimps in restaurants, drink in bars, get clothing, cars washed/detailed, attend movies, concerts, etc., without paying the tab. True pimps play and hustle EVERYBODY around them.

I agree that pimps probably hate women. Although, I think pimps are so self-consumed that they probably can't really love ANYBODY but themselves.

Yukio, I think what Chris was originally saying is he questions whether a woman can effectively be a pimp as we typically view a pimp to be because ultimately to get a ho to do EVERYTHING he wants her to do, a pimp will eventually have to put his foot up a ho's a$$. If you never do that, you ain't a pimp...you're a broker.

I think that there are women who could and probably do pimp as effectively as men, though they would likely have to be of an especially tuff, masculine variety, because part of why some women respond to pimpin' is they are submitting to the look and show of machismo and forcefulness that males are usually better equipped to effect than females. Women who can when necessary can affect a hard, dominant, callous and confident image and attitude...and have no problem slapping around other women...can pimp too.

For example, the character Queen Latifah played in "Set It Off" strike me as someone who was "hard" enuff to be a pimp.
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Cynique

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Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 01:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just curious. Is it unlikely that a female pimp could have a stable of male prostitutes?
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Yukio

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Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 02:52 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:

Thanks but i understood CH's point, and BTW,he also questioned if females could be as abusive as male pimps. My point, simply, was that, if making your worker work in the rain was a job requirement then a female pimp would make her whore do the same. In other words, i was saying get over the gender issue, and realize that a good pimp is gonna make their whores do the job, regardless of gender. Additionally, i made the point that all humans have the propensity for degradation, and if that is so, then women do too.

Finally, i made the point that it isn't the degree of abuse that is degrading it is the institution of pimping, since abuse is alwaya an element. And hating women, ie Iceberg Slim's pyschologizing, is not the only reason for pimping, no other skills and desire for money, ie greed at any means necessary, are other motivators.

I added slavery, because if we are talking about degradation why get caught up on whether a master was good or not, it is clear that position of the master itself of owning a human is the real degradation. Similarly, if we are talking about degradation and being an effective pimp, why get caught up on that and talk about the actual institution of pimping itself is the real degradation. If i recall correctly, CH was also lamenting how Pimp wasn't a favorable and positive icon to affirm, did he not?

In other words, i disagreed, explained why and added another dimension to the conversation. Is that ok for you'll?
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 09:30 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok Yukio, I understand your propensity to belabor the ERA bit. But answer this simple question: Who many female pimps have you ever seen or even heard about?

Not many I'd wager. Because there aren't that many. And there's a simple reason why: Bottomline, it is not within the physical, mental or emotional nature or capacity for 99.9% of females to be pimps.

Plain and simple.

Sure, theoretically, a woman can be just as mean and abusive and callous as males. But the vast majority of people are not. Most men are decidedly stronger than females, which makes it easier to intimidate and coerce females. Also, men are physically and emotionally removed from or aloof of the female genitalia. So a male pimp ain't gonna experience or much care if a woman's on her 'period', has vaginal dryness, PMS, a yeast infection or the assortment other feminine maladies that might encumber a ho from 'effectively' and 'comfortably' doing her job.

This is what routinely happen between a Pimp & a Ho:
Ho: "Hey Sweet Daddie, can I take tonite off? I am really feelin' soe' aftah screwin' allah dose nasty rappahs lastnite. Dem nastay ni&&as knocked out my tooth and I dink dey gave me dah 'crabs'."
Male Pimp: "Lissen hur, b@#$!! I realay don't wanna hur that sh@#! I don't care if all yo' teefes fall out and yo' p&@#$'s tern rotten! You'd better get yo' a$$ out der on dem skreets an' git me my money."

Yukio, ain't too many women that can go there with other women.

I agree prostitution is degrading no matter whatever the sex/gender of it's participants. And I can vaguely understand your "slavery" comparative. But including too much of it somewhat obscured the point you were trying to make.
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Yukio

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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 12:30 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM: ain't too many men that can go there with women, either.


It isn't that serious. I was making a point, which was to try to think beyond gender categories. The fact that we assign gender categorie to positions and occupations should, i think, illustrate that we too quicky equate particular characteristics to malesness and femaleness so that we are locked into static categories......

Well, good luck wit ya conversations, etc.....
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 02:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

You must be an attorney.
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yukio

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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 07:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:
Y would u assume that i'm an attorney?

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ABM

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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 09:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Because, Yukio, you LOVE to argue and you ALWAYS have to get the last word in. Dat's got lawyer written all over it.

Although, I'm thinking more that you're a professor of gender-studies. Because of your incessant promulgation of ERA & gender-equity doctrine, I have you pegged for a NOW representative.

Not that's there's anything wrong with being an attorney or a feminist, mind you.
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yukio

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Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:
What would you call a feminist(or what does it mean to you), and aren't you one? If not, why not? Or are you a womanist?

I'm not for equality as in outcome, but in opportunity...the same element that was/is essential to civil rights.

Perhaps, i'm "incessant" because some of you continue to "naturally" embed gender difference within ya rhetoric where is doesn't have to be.....in other words, my "promulgations" are in relation to your own...lmao!
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Cynique

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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 12:10 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, just to show you how the sexual mind-sets permeate every aspect of things, I get an entirely different impression of Yukio than you and Chris do. I wouldn't peg her as a lawyer or a NOW member. I feel she might be in social services, or in an advisory position for a community action organization, maaaybe an out-of -the class-room educator. You guys are so inured in your maleness that you overreact when she calls your attention to the sexism you aren't even aware of. I also know that Yukio isn't going to tell us what her field is. (Wonder if I'll have to eat these words. LOL)
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:34 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio: ABM said it. Ain't got nothin' to do with your sexuality--after all, on here you could be of any sex. You could be an AI. You could be a gestalt mind, made up of several people of different ages, races, sexes that use the name YUKIO.

I do however, get the feeling from time to time that you are, in your own way, coming to the board with a microchip on your shoulder that you sometimes feel someone has taken a swipe at when they haven't. Of course, all things are matters of perception, are they not? I mean, if I don't think that I've taken a swipe at you but you do, then perhaps both of us are correct.

I by no means am asking you to stop, by the way--the Heavy Hand of Patriarchy is not trying to sew the mouth of the Goddess shut--I do enjoy our little excercises. They make me fit and sharp when I gotta duck them nines.

ABM: You said it.

Cynique: You got me wrong, dawg!
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Cynique

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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:40 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, what is it that I've got you wrong about? And excuse my feminine sensibilities but I never thought of "dawg" as being a unisex slang word. If you must refer to me in canine terms, "bitch goddess" will do just fine. >>tail wagging<<
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yukio

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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 11:52 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH: I didn't say it had anything to do with sex; i jus asked why.


Thats strange to read that you think i have a chip on my shoulder. Very strange. i've never taken anything personal except when it has referenced me and not my analysis. Very strange. Perhaps, you have the chip? You and ABM have even taken the time to suggest how i might improve my analysis, which suggests that we might have a student/teacher relationship...LMAO...in other words, a relationship of authority. Of course, this is only a suggestion.

It seems that since you're not conscious of your sexism, when i identify this it nudges the chip to the edge, bit by bit so that it finally falls off your shoulder, shattering your espoused model of progressive manliness...lmao! Jus playing, btw!

You're in denial, CH! You write to Cynique, "You got me wrong, dawg!"....need i say more?

You haven't even, like ABM has, acknowledged the POSSIBILITY that your analysis is gendered. It would seem that you have a problem. You're the one introducing this as an ISSUE, not me.

Anyways, i'll try not to point these things out so much. To me, your statements are often like a white man saying nigger in every sentence(FOr give the exaggeration). I'm only fooling around, so please don't take this personal...and i don't enjoy this so i'll STOP!

ABM:
Lets consider your allegation of my socalled ERA advocacy....i don't recall affirming ERA(i'm assuming that you're talking about the ERA movement)...i do talk about gender, however. You may consider taking what i say for what it is, and not assume my allegiance to anything else.....this is called getting to know someone.

Anyways, i've garnered too much attention....let us move on to something interesting, literary......i'm excited about Toni MOrrison's new book, LOVE....

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ABM

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Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 10:48 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique, this post started out talking about "pimping". And Yukio managed to steer even that into an ERA-4-pimps issue. And when Chris and I (mistakenly) tried to indulge her and offer our honest opinions, we are (which INVARIABLY happens with Yukio) made out to be knuckle-dragging Neanderthals.

I agree sexism is rampant/ubiquitous. But it need not be made a main topic of almost EVERY discussion.

I too doubt that the guarded Yukio would reveal anything about herself, which is fine by me.


Yukio, to answer your question about whether I am a feminist or a womanist: I am neither. And it should have been clear to you that I have "ERA" in a figurative, not literal since, as I make no to any specifics of what was proposed in the failed amendment.

I do advocate more opportunity for females and I even some Affirmative Action where there has proven to systemic/historic sexism.

But I don't think that all differences in behavior, character between man and women can be traced to men subjugating of females, which is what most feminists appear to assert. I think some of our behavior is innate and is a consequence of differences in physiology, biology, hormones and how best we can survive/thrive within the outer environment & ecology.

Consequently, I don't think that EVERY opportunity afforded a woman should be granted to a man (e.g., no men as Ms. Black America contestants) nor should everything a man does be made available to a woman (e.g., no females on NBA teams.).

And I know enuff about feminism to ascertain that, ironically, the woman-liberating Gloria Steinem's of the world can be just as myopic, biased and prejudicial as the very men that they decry.

And I can't comment on the term "womanist" because I have yet to clearly determine what that is.

Yukio, reasonable men walk a fine line with respect to issues of gender-equity and equal rights. Because on the one hand, you want to be open, empathetic and cooperative. But the more candid you are, the more you are made out to be some kind of mysogynistic lunkhead.

And does it ever occur to you that your crying "sexist" at everything someone says that does not meet your limited view of what should/not be said/done between the sexists is in itself biased and discriminatory?

Honestly, were Chris and I as backwards thinking as you and Cynique want to assert we are, we wouldn't even be frequenting this site, which is highly dominated by females, much less chatting with you about ERA, equal-right, feminism, womanism, etc. Most unenlightened brothahs would say, "JEEZZ!! What the f@#$ are those broads talking about?" and just pretty much ignore whatever else you say.


BTW: Cynique, I betcha you would "overreact" too if you had the opportunity to become "inured" in MY..."maleness". ((wink))
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:05 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, as far as I'm concerned, it ain't that serious. Men are women are not the same and it ain't no big thing if you regard women differently than you do men. Stop apologizing for exercising your prerogative to do this.
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:19 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ooops, I meant to write "men AND women are not the same", not "men ARE women are not the same". BTW, ABM, being inured in a man's maleness has caused many a liberated woman to temporarily opt for the bondage of good lay. LOL
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Yukio

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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 01:14 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:
Relax! Its not that serious. I never called you "knuckle-dragging Neanderthals." I don't do the label thing...you're much to self-conscious...lmao! You're honesty illustrated that we disagree on some issues. And that is alright, NO? I just disagreed with you.

The discussion was on pimps, and i added the female element, which i thought was interesting. BTW, i asked about female pimps because Cynique stated, "ABM, in decrying Prince Phillip,I wasn't absolving Queen Elizabeth. They are both leeches. But in keeping with the definition of a Pimp, Prince Phillip fills the bill because he is an unemployed man who is being taken care of by a woman." Which seemed to suggest that females were excluded from the pimpin game. There was never a problem, the discussion was always about gender anyway--constructions of manliness...but thats neither here or there!

Anyways, i'm not sure what i think about feminism or the movement. I think if women do the same work they should receive the same wages; i think should be encouraged into the sciences, etc...The term womanist emerged from Alice Walker's non-fiction, and it expanded "feminism" to include issues that pertained to poor women and women of color rather than just middle class white women(i think this is right, but i'm not sure).

We don't really disagree:
"But I don't think that all differences in behavior, character between man and women can be traced to men subjugating of females... I think some of our behavior is innate and is a consequence of differences in physiology, biology, hormones and how best we can survive/thrive within the outer environment & ecology." I agree; though, i think that the consequences of innate differences and learned differences are that women have been disadvantaged. I think that some of these disadvantages are surmountable! i don't think it was necessarily conscious subjugation, but if an entire culture is telling women that they can't do something when infact they can, then it becomes conscious subjugation.


So though i think that women shouldn't be in the NBA, i do think that women should be in authoritative positions in the CHurch, which is what's happening.

I don't get caught up in equality as an outcome, because it isn't possible and society doesn't really want it, but if people want to fight for specific and particular issues, such as women being sexually active as men and not being called a slut, whore, etc...then again, i'm all for it!

I've talked about the presence of sexism and the desire to improve black folk through redefining better gender politics. I have not, however, promoted equality nor feminism, for i don't really know what they mean. The recreation of a new gender politics would a process and through critical analysis of what works through praxis.
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ABM

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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 02:11 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique, I was not "apologizing" for what I think and say. And while I agree that I may have overstated my point, I find it's interesting that you ladies can almost casually ascribe sexist labels to what men say/do yet when we explain or defend our views, you say we are "apologizing" or are being "self-conscious".

I did not quite follow what you meant by "...being inured in a man's maleness has caused many a liberated woman to temporarily opt for the bondage of good lay." But on the surface, it sounds like fun to me.


Yukio, that was thoughtful and provocative essay. Much of it I agree with, actually. I believe females should hold whatever position within their house of worship that its flock would desire. Women should be paid the same wages for the same work, although I would not sanction any laws (e.g., ERA) requiring such.

And females should be motivated to be discoverers and scholars, although I don't think measures should be made uniquely to motivate Black females to study math any more than there are for Black males when you consider all AA's lag woefully behind in expertise in math/science.

For better and worse, as Black females continue to outpace males academically and economically, rights and powers between the sexes will and have already begun to balance.

And I think a woman who irresponsibly tramps around with a bunch sex partners SHOULD be called a SLUT just as a man who does the same is commonly called a DAWG.
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yukio

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Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:31 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:
I just think people need to be encouraged to do their best at whatever is positive and life enhancing.

I'm not gonna call folk names, but i just don't think the double standard is fair.

Intellectually, i don't disagree; conceptually, being a slut and dawg sounds the same, but when an entire society treats the two differently, such as this and most patriarchies, then the double-standard is being discriminately enforced against the women.
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ABM

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Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 07:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio,

Why should a sistah whine about what other folks say...when she could be getting laid? ((wink))


You may want to update your dogma about how "patriarchies" and "double-standards" inhibit female sexuality.

In today's America, there are few advantages conferred upon the Satyr that are denied the Nympho. And there is no more Scarlet Letter or Chastity Belt.

The only real and enduring social difference between the "Dawg" and the "Slut" is that in most cases a "Dawg" could give d@#$ about what others think of what, who and HOW MANY they "do", while often some of even the most whorish females will try to maintain some anachronistic facade of "respectability". And, ironically, the pretence of "feminine virtue and chastity" may no longer be necessary, as the current openly sexual female seems to enjoy untold advantage.

Admit it: The Lady Sex Bomb reigns!

This is an age of powerful "pooh"-popping females such as Pamela Andersen, the characters in "Sex in the City", Zane, Christina Aguilera and lil' Kim. The theatre's profoundly racy and intimate Vagina Monologue enjoys national acclaim and popularity. And even porn stars are now not only free to overtly market themselves as music video vixens, singers and mainstream actresses but are also now being lauded as feminine liberators by some of the most ardent feminism advocates.

And as ALL women more aggressively exert their sexual freedom and variety, the negative labels will dissipate in usage, severity and impact.

Hypothetical situation: A man considers that one prospective wife has had 15 previous sex partners (including 3 females and a 2nd cousin) and another marital prospect has had 20 partners (including a weekend stint as a callgirl). And those 2 are among the most modest women he's dated. So other than perhaps the increased statistical possibility of the latter female having contracting disease, what does he really hope to gain by quibbling or fussing about either woman's sexual history?

Even I have observed that, some of the biggest "skanks" I knew in college appear now to have very successful careers and marriages. I suppose it's because they have had the will and guts to do whatever they wanted - personally and professionally - in spite of criticism. And they have the sexual freedom, expertise and audacity to potently "P-whip" any man into submission.
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Cynique

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Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:29 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It may be a cliche but a woman's personality plays a big role in neutralizing her lengthy sexual resume. Being a female who is charming and intelligent and not possessive goes a long way toward defusing promiscuity. Never underestimate the power of good pillow talk.
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Yukio

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Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:27 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:
I won't belabor this. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Sex in the City, Lil Kim, etc... is the minority, and more importantly, it is entertainment. The reason men don't care is because they don't get the criticism. My point is that women are criticized.

In other words, society still criticizes these women, but they don't criticize the man. It is not about perserverance, ie the women received criticism and now she is successful. We are taught to affirm male promiscuity, and to abhor female promiscuity.

Hypothetical: Stephanie, 21 yr old young mother, takes her 5 month old child, Malik, to visit her girlfriend Stacy. The young mother asks Stacy to hold Malik, while she prepares his bottle. Seated, Stacy takes the child in her left hand. She craddles the boy, stares into his eyes, brushes away the blanket to finger comb his curly hair, and with her right hand smoothes his right eye brows in place, "Gurl,... this little boy of yours is prit-teeee! He gon be playa!" she says in admiration. The young mother glances back, "Gurl, i know dats righ!"
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yukio

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Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 04:43 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM:
I was rereading ya post, and wanted to address something you said. I didn't say that "patriarchies" and "double standards" inhibit female sexuality, athough i think it does. If this is truly a patriarchical culture, then women and men have acculturated, which means that it isn't just men criticizing female promiscuity; it is also women criticizing females and affirming male promiscuity. BTW, i don't think these things are necessarily perpetuated consciously. I think that these things are accepted "norms," which are cultural "norm" rather than universal "norms."

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