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AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board » Culture, Race & Economy - Archive 2003 » Liberia « Previous Next »

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Yukio

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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 11:10 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What do u guys think about the US' involvement in Liberia?

It is interesting how there is tension between Powell and BUsh concerning when and how to intervene...

Also, to what extent do you think black people in the US are interested in Africa, particularly Liberia?

In my few conversations here pertaining to Africa, it seems that most of the posters' have no connection or relationship to the continent(i have often read dislike)..... Do you guys think this is an accurate representation of the black american population? If so, why are people disconnected to Africa?

I ask the latter two questions because there is a long tradition of black leaders, activist, politicians, and intellectuals(ie those with a media to have voice) that have clear connections to the continent and have actively articulated their relations and desire to see Africans(including us) free. COnsequently, the US government has always been conscious of this political pan africanism, so that they have consciously attempted to appeal to the interests of black americans, assuming that the broader black population actually embraced their Africanity(ie, news reporters consistently and incorrectly stating the black american ex-slaves found liberia).

Is there, therefore, a tension between "black intelligentsia" and "black masses" or is there more heterogeneity among both groups.

I think there is heterogeniety between both groups; but i think pan africanism is a minority in both, especially within the masses.

What do u think?
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 02:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

I think that the U.S. ought to be involved only as far as the indigenous leaders want them to be. I think that the indigenous leaders should decide what help if any they want from the U.S. and then the U.S. should respond in that manner. Anything else is neocolonialist and patronizing and will end up with the U.S. pressing its own agenda to the detriment of the Liberians.

I think the U.S. has had some influence here in their pressuring Charles Taylor to leave (it seems though if they had wanted to affect events they would have sent heavy weapons to the rebels--wonder why they didn't do that?) so we will see how it works out.

I think most black people here for a variety of reasons feel little connection with Africa. The black intelligentsia is almost totally cutoff from and sees most things different from the black masses for instance the attitude toward gangsta rap music and tastes in dress, music, etc.. The class distinctions that some predicted would complicate racial unity have come to fruition.

If the U.S. is conscious of this political pan Africanism it has been to try to discourage and squelch it.
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Yukio

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Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 05:08 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:

I don't think any country can resist the US' involvement....

"I think most black people here for a variety of reasons feel little connection with Africa."

COuld u provide some reasons?

"The black intelligentsia is almost totally cutoff from and sees most things different from the black masses for instance the attitude toward gangsta rap music and tastes in dress, music, etc.. The class distinctions that some predicted would complicate racial unity have come to fruition."

What else besides class causes this fracture(ie being cut off) between the "intelligentsia" and the "masses?"

And was the "intelligentsia" ever connected to the "masses?"
Was there ever racial unity or is the nature of the black community's relationship different?

"If the U.S. is conscious of this political pan Africanism it has been to try to discourage and squelch it."

I agree, but I think they are conscious, since the Clinton admins., initiated the commitee on race and their effort to apologize for slavery, and bush's visit to senegal and goree island.....as well as that black politicians and especially randall have politicized the relationship between africa, especially south africa, and black americans.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:29 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

They may not be able to resist the U.S.' involvemnet--but they all, including the U.S., might wind up sorry they did get involved if the U.S. attempts to bogard the situation.

The main reason Black people feel no connection with Africa is because this was purposely cut off. When we did begin to learn about it it was through a prism that stated that African was backward and the people were uncivilized savages--this was through culture and entertainment.

Unlike most of those who came to these shores few of us know when and where we came from because that was obliterated.

Now of course we are of African descent. But what does that mean? What tribe did your direct ancestors come from? What village or territory? This is what the other immigrants know.

There are some thinkers who posit that, due to the deliberate mixing of the tribes and obliteration of language and culture (save in the most vestigial manner) we African Americans are in fact a new ethnic group with origin in the American South, much as the modern day Spaniard is a new blending of Celtic, Carthaginian, Roman, Visigothic, Moorish, etc.

Re the fracture it is location--as the intelligentsia has joined the migration from the inner cities, interests, taste--I remember one summer I worked on the railroad while in College and one of the workers there told me that now that I was in college he and I would not be dating the same women.

I remember getting angry at that point and thinking he was wrong. But one of the main things one looks for in a woman is someone one can talk to. Like it or not, blue collar folks don't talk about the same things intellectuals do--not that they are stupid. I go to blue collar places now and then but mostly you talk about sports or entertainment--they can talk politics race or sociology on the fundamental levels--but there are times I want to break down and talk about what John Edgar Wideman is doing. What Baraka is doing. What bell hooks is doing. Cornel West. John Biggers, Marion Brown, Sapphire, Paul Beatty They might know who these people are but that's as far as it goes. In the past when everybody had to live in the ghetto and everybody had to sit on the back of the bus there was a commonality that could be shared in these unpleasant circumstances.

For instance when I was coming up our pastor stayed in the hood. Now these black pastors don't live even where their churches are. You have black folks today that don't know a damn thing about what is going on in the hood. Wasn't this the goal? To move out of the hood? Like James Brown say, There it is.

The intelligentsia was closer to the masses during the time of illegal segregation and during times of revolutionary activity, during the 30's and 60's. I don't think there was ever 100% racial unity. Even during the most unbearable times there were factions urging black folks to go along with the program.

I think the U.S. sees us as Americans--maybe not full Americans. At least they want to see us as that, having our loyalties here and not to any foreign country or power. Pan Africanism is dynamite. It helped get Malcolm X killed. I listen to talk shows and see websites where white folks are astounded that we would think of having any connection with Africa--these same ones who readily identify themselves as Irish, German Italian etc even though they have never been there.
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:08 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with everything you say, Chris, except what you imply about having to go outside the blue collar ranks to find stimulating conversation. I have found most "bougie" college graduates to be anything but intellectually stimulating. They are fluent only in what they majored in; they discuss people, not ideas, and are only interested in making money so they can afford a lavish lifestyle. Actually, erudite individuals exist in all classes. It's all about having an innate curiosity and a compulsion to read.
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Yukio

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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 01:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:

Interesting response. You are basically stating that there is no cultural( as in land, knowledge, and tradition) connection between African Americans and Africans.

I partially agree with this if indeed i'm understanding you correctly. I do think we have cultural elements that are African, which accounts for our music and how we interpret Chrisitianity. I completely believe that we are a new ethnic group, with origins in the SOuth and NOrth, but we are fundamentally Africans.

From my readings, and limited experiences, I don't think much has changed among the classes among black people. Though the intellectuals and middle class folk lived in the "hood," they were still stuck up, distant, and condescending( Of course, these characterizations do not represent all of the those in the socalled "elite" positions). Consequently, what they knew of the "hood," they only knew from their particular, often judgemental, perspective. Now, they do the same, only that they're not in the hoods'denizens face to do it. They were only close in location, in my perspective, and now that the fight is over for those with wealth and education, they don't have to address the group only their class. They've become those that whites point to in order to illustrate that black's poverty is their fault because other hard working negros have made it, and that if there was racism, those like Clarence Thomas, you, and me, wouldn't have made it. Call me Cynique, if u want!

In addition, the elite's activism was often two pronged: anti-racism and segregation; and unliftment which usually meant "civilizing" the black community of their backward ways, which was done through programs attempting to shape the groups' behaviors, ie how to speak proper english, dress, etiquette. This character development was suppose improve their chances to get work from whites, but most importantly, to prove that we were in fact civilized, moral beings. In other words, their was an implicit self-hate, because the ways of southern folk and the poor in general was considered backward, the blues, jazz, etc...were not western and white(although of course, white people would eventually accept these things and make them US'national music). And this alleged backward both prevented the race from improving their lot and it demonstrated that we weren't independent enough to govern ourselves, which ulitmately mean that we were ready for citizenship.
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Cynique

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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:02 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio, surely, you are not mentioning my name in the same sentence with Clarence Thomas! I have never embraced his conservative philosophy.The fact that I am not an idealist who offers simple solutions for complicated problems does not put me in the same category with this lock-step Uncle Tom. The only time I have offered a simple solution for a complicated problem is when I said that delaying pregnancy and staying in school increases your odds of escaping the poverty trap. This is just common sense advice And statistics prove that it is true
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

Or should I call you Cynique #2?

I am not saying there is not a connection between Africans and African Americans. But such matters depend on perception--if I don't perceive that there is such a connection, then it may as well not exist. Of course such things do have a way of jumping up and hitting one in the face.

There is a connection but many African Americans do not perceive it--

Some elites that lived in the hood were stuck up and condescending--some non elites are stuck up. I think they had to put a break on it--if I am getting in my Benz and driving to the burbs after I diss you it is a bit easier than if I am living next door or down the block---much easier for somebody to toss a brick through my window or slash my tires.

I guess there was some self hate in their denigration of folk art like the blues jazz--but you must also remember the types of people and places this art was performed in back in the day--it wasn't at Carnagie hall, it was in rough gin joints and barrell houses with pimps and prostitutes and gambling and knife fighting and dope taking and whiskey drinking at all hours when good folk are in bed, oh yes.

They were trying to do the best they could for the race, teaching the same lessons white folks were teaching their kids and others, and being neat, punctual and polite will get further among any group of people you know than being yourself--

Cynique #1:

I guess I should have said relationships rather than conversation. 90% of any kind of people are a drag--but it is that relationship over time you have to have some commonality of interests.

There are some young men who are running the local gangbanger franchise (they are going thru a thing here where they wear all kinds of colors to confuse the police) Istop off and talk to them sometimes about what I'm into--books, literature. It's cool with them for a while, but then they want to talk about what they want to talk about--usually about things that interest young men (clothes, music cars, girls) but often about matters it would be best not to overhear if one doesn't want to have to testify in court.
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Yukio

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Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 10:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:
Black folk and the black bourgeiosie did not frequent the same spaces, so that all they lived in the same neighborhoods, they frequented different churches and social gatherings, as they do now. Consequently, whether we are talking about the past or the present the middle class did not have to worry about slashed tires, since they only dealt with eachother when the folk sought the services of the middleclass in the NUL and NAACP. I don't really see much disagreement, here....

"I guess there was some self hate in their denigration of folk art like the blues jazz--but you must also remember the types of people and places this art was performed in back in the day--it wasn't at Carnagie hall, it was in rough gin joints and barrell houses with pimps and prostitutes and gambling and knife fighting and dope taking and whiskey drinking at all hours when good folk are in bed, oh yes."
Interesting comments here; it seems like you are doing alot of judging here. All i'll say is that all folk that frequent joop joints are not all bad, as it is true that those that frequent church are not all good.

"They were trying to do the best they could for the race, teaching the same lessons white folks were teaching their kids and others, and being neat, punctual and polite will get further among any group of people you know than being yourself--"
They did not just teach punctuality, etc..; they also taught that these folk that they were backward, which is much more than telling folk that they need certain skills inorder to get a job. In addition, they often blamed the "folk"'s behavior as the reason for their inability to procure work, and basic justice and equal opportunity.

Lets be for real, here. The difference between poor and rich folk is money. Rich folk are as unprofessional and late as the next man. The point is that when you are on the come up, you need to follow the rules, but the black middle classes of the fact confused following the rules for economic success and made it a question of morals and culture.

Cynique:
I used your name not to represent Clarence Thomas' ideas, but to make the point that i was cynical about the black middle class.
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 10:04 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

How old are you? The church I went to when I grew up had lawyers, doctors, Pullman porters, Janitors, people on assistance, the whole nine yards. Maybe this was true in New York (again, remember the New York Centricity) but here in St. Louis there were not enough black bourgeosie for them to be able to go off on their own--who indeed would the black bourgeosie of the time have had as customers if they had so separated themselves.

The fact of the matter is that good church going folk would not have got caught dead in a jook joint--in my town they were on Easton and Franklin and Leffingwell and Sarah and Finney, among other places. It was not out of mere snobbery that good folk (and they didn't have to be all middle class, there are plenty of poor folk who, primarily for religious reasons, look down on such activities) but out of concern for personal safety (from the denizens of such areas and from the police who considered such areas free fire zones) and for their reputation among their neighbors.

You are just flat wrong about the virtues that thes folk taught. How can you separate the rules for economic success from morals and culture, which are concerned with living a successful life.

If a young person came to you and asked you how to succeed, what would you tell them? Sleep all day, get high and party all night, don't bother about showing up when you promised people you will, don't keep promises--it seems like you have a problem with middle class people. There are a lot of problems I have with them, too. But poor people are not saints who would magically stop harmful behaviors if they weren't poor. I think they would commit less crime. But as you have stated, rich and middle class people get drunk, beat their wives, lie, cheat and steal, too. Middle class people aren't going anywhere. There will never exist any society where everybody lives on the same economic level--at the height of Communism in the Soviet Union Stalin and his cronies lived in sumptuous dachas formerly occupied by the Romanovs--but I guess you feel the servants of the people are entitled to some extra benefit for their exertions on behalf of them. Unless your discussions about black unity have just been theoretical wish dreaming I don't see how your black unity can proceed if you leave them out.

Futhermore you sound middle class yourself. In my neck of the woods folks would say you talk (or at least write) like a white woman. I know that one will set you off.

Let me ask you a couple questions. What economic set up would you have in the United States of Yukio? What political boundaries would it have?

Another couple. What is your definition of success? If you became successful according to this definition, where would you live and who would you hang out with?
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Yukio

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 10:56 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think what i had said is as simple as telling a person to get high or not to get high, but lets just say that we think differently. I'm not talking about "snobbery"; I'm talking about preaching self-hate! Of course, my comments are not ask complex as what really occurred/occurs, but essence remains the same. Of course the location and resources of the group does change things, but the fact that middle classes across the black world have separated themselves is a fact. I don't limit what i think/know to what i experience. I integrate my experiences with others, and what I've read in history.

I'm not going to judge who is who is not "good," and i agree with ya comments about safety(jook joints). I don't have a problem with middle class people because of their class, but because of some of their behavior, as i do with some poor people....it is the behavior not class in of in itself.

I'm would be considered middleclass, but my behavior doesn't reflect the positions that i had attached to some middle class people.

I would have a fairer political economic system....whatever that is....equality is another thing, health care, a job, a living wage, is what i envision.

My definition of success is to find happiness for yourself and ya loved ones....basic general...lol!

I don't know where i would live, but it wouldn't be in a poor neighborhood. You see, my comments are not about money, position, or wealth, it is what you do with it; it is how you treat people.....and many middle class people similar to many Christians use their notion of morality and respectability as the standard and the path to success. So this leads to the position, in a segregated community, that if you walk right, dress right, speak correctly, then you will be successful. Now, the lack of these qualities were not responsible for black folks' underemployment and unemployment for most of late nineteenth century and most of the 20th century; black folk worked but we couldn't keep a job! So, the real issue was racism, not etiquette. And so if wasn't that the "folk" were backward, but that they were different. It was that they were "bad" people but that they like to smoke and drink for leisure on their own time.

As it pertains to the present, as in the past, all groups have lazy people, and all groups have a pretty large working and poor class that works, and they don't hang out all night and lose their rent money on crack.....this is just how all societies are, but to simplify the conditions of the masses, as many black politians have, republicans and democratic, and argue that all can be economically successful is a disservice to the integrity of black people and people in general, since poverty is not solely the product of work ethic, culture, or morals....much more complicated.....

But thats all i have to say about that, because the thread was about liberia the relationship between us and liberians and africa in general.

Thank you for ya comments, CH!
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Chris Hayden

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:28 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yukio:

I think all classes of blacks preach self hate.

Do you think it possible that middle class people taught that you should walk talk and dress right because they would all then be able to get along with each other better and get on each other's nerves less? After all this is the reason for etiquette--to make interaction more pleasurable and reduce the chance for conflict.

I take all people as they come--long as you don't put your hands on me with hostile intent I can about put up with anything--but some people are put off by loud and boisterous talk dress and behavior. Maybe they need to get a grip. . .

It is good that you can be intellectual and not be a snob, this will take you far and open doors that are closed to those who are much taken by the number of books they have read . . .

by the way, I know you like Wideman as do I. What do you think of Sapphire's AMERICAN DREAMS and Paul Beatty's WHITE BOY SHUFFLE. I was reading SHUFFLE this morning and thinking that this was satire on a level with anything, Mark Twain, and all. Have you read Xam Wilson Cartier's BE BOP, RE BOP? When I was in NYC last I was much impressed with the fact that I could find paperback editions of said book.

It is a shame that folks thought that good manners was the only key to success, but maybe they were clinging to them as sort of a totem. And anybody with any sense knows that everybody can't be economically successful. Who would the rich folks lord it over? Who would they get to clean their toilets?

I think the Egyptian Pharoahs built the pyramids in part to illustrate the order of society--there I am that one stone on the top and all the rest of you shmoes are holding me up on the base--why we got a pyramid on our dollar bill.

It's one of the reaons I always found ATLAS SHRUGGED such bilge--like all the most "talented" folk in society will go 'way and leave all the rest of you to stew--like they could live with each other in equality! Like they could get on without stooges!
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smarti

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 12:35 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"ie, news reporters consistently and incorrectly stating the black american ex-slaves found liberia)"

Yukio - can you expand on this? That Liberia was founded by ex-slaves was also my understanding.
Thanks
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Yukio

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Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 03:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

CH:
I think people, black white asisn what have u, are taught etiquette because it is believed "respectable" people have these qualities. It is merely a standard that is suppose to signifies status and class, jus as wearing ya baseball cap and throw back signify another standard.

I've only read wideman, but i will try to read the other authors in the next year or so.

Again, CH, my comments are less about the etiquette than what it meant during jim crow and as well as to the present. During jim and jane crow, the assumption black people were savages/children and whites were civilized, so that though we're both human, culturally whites were more modern(and we were backward). This was internalized by educated blacks and christianized blacks, especially those that settled in Liberia as a matter of fact. The thought among these blacks was that if we were christianized and/or educated we would be both modern and demonstrate that we were self-governing. In other words, if we demonstrated our worth(ie met the white standard that ironically few whites ever meet), we would be enfranchised. So that things like etiquette did not merely pertain to treating people with respect, but it demonstrated that you were a man and a lady, rather than a uncle and mammy.

Smarti:
i'll have to get back to you with the specifics. It is disingenious and simplistic to state that ex-slaves founded Liberia, though many went for different reasons. Black folk went but under the guidance of white men. But generally, because of the Gabriel Prosser(1800) and Denmark Vesey(1822) conspiracies and David Walker's Appeal(1829), Nat Turner rebellion (1831), the expansion of slavery debate in the 1820s, caused fear among whites. They especially feared the emerging free black populations, so that in the early 19th century the American COlonization SOciety, composed of white planters, abolitionists, etc....sought to colonize ex-slaves in other countries, such as Brazil, South America, and Africa. Those that went to Liberia, therefore, were often endorsed by these white people who feared their quas-freedom could jeopardize slavery. And there endorsement also meant that Liberia would be developed in these white people's image. In addition, there were debates in the 1840s and early 50s among black intellectuals, like Douglas, Henry Highland Garnet and Martin Delany, concerning whether blacks should leave for Africa. Both groups detested ASC, but those who sought emigration believed that black people could never realize/actualize true freedom in the US, while the others argued that they their fight was here, in the US. Those who emigrated left for reasons quite different from those that were endorsed by the ACS, so that separate and different ideological groups of ex-slaves and free blacks actually journeyed to Liberia; the latter emigrated to build a black nation, of course those with the ASC's funding were better equipped. Many like Delaney returned from Brasil and SOuth AMerica and Africa because they couldn't handle the conditions.

Of course, this history of black emigration is long and complicated. There are those that sought to emigrate prior to the ASC and even in the late 19th and early twentieth century before Garvey. Liberian movement, however, was the initiated by the ASC and the relationship between US intervention must start there, because these early ventures enabled the US to get a foothold in the Liberian economy, i believe it is rubber but don't quote me.
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ABM

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Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 01:08 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Until all Africans (Natives & Diaspora) aggressively develop and execute open, accessible, effective, competitive and religion-free methods of Education, Science & Technology, Commerce and Government; ALL Black people will continue to feed, gag and CHOKE from the arsenic-laced milk of Europe/US and wreak havoc upon each other.
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Cynique

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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:23 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, are you suggesting that things like education, technology, commerce and government vary from one race to another? These are venues that transcend race and are there for anyone to tap into. What black people need to do is to overhaul their value systems and reorder their priorities. As long as the "baby daddy" mindset prevails, generations of fatherless black kids will continue to perpetuate a life-style that fosters random breeding and the excessive materialism of the "bling-bling" culture.
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ABM

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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 07:06 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The "fatherlessness" and "materialism" are but subsets of far greater problems. Our pathologies are the consequence of slavery, racism & colonization. Your issues, as great as they are, are only the product of us Africans being for the better part of a millennium incapable of and unwilling to rule ourselves.

Simply: If you can't control what you are made to think and do, you will likely engage in self-destructive behavior.

Left to our own individual devices, we human beings can be very selfish and reckless. Religions and morals were created to keep us from destroying each other and ourselves. But standards and ethics can only be effectively promulgated when a community has the will, resources and power to enforce the desired behavior. How can we teach and maintain productive & wholesome values when so much of what we think and do can be effectively usurped by others?

Until Blacks can achieve some material degree of self-rule, independence and even dominance, all the problems that you cite will continue...and worsen.
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ABM

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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 07:15 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique says: ABM, are you suggesting that things like education, technology, commerce and government vary from one race to another?
ABM says: I am not sure what you mean by how those subjects "vary from one race to another". But I do think there are WIDE disparities among how the human races understand and appreciate those concepts.
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Yukio

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Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 03:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think black people at least, in Africa and the Caribbean, are trying to rebuild their nations in images of their own visions, but these things take time. The fact of the matter is, Will and vision are not enough, and so patience and perseverance, in my opinion, is what needs to be part of the dialogue. All of these elements, of culture, education, politcs, etc....are proceeding within the context of local, national, and international relationships...., so that these goals are partially shaped not only by our determination, but our ability to negotiate with other nations. Liberia, and most of Africa, are perfect examples. Consider that there problems are not only of politics, ie whose in government, but their political economy, their natural resourece, exports, imports, etc..., Will and a particular ideologies is not enough...

Same situation with African Americans in this country. We don't even have a group ideology, so we don't have the economic clout that Miami's Cubans do or NYC's Jews do; each of these groups work as small nationalities within a nation, with their own business and economic, social, and familial networks. We used to have these more so during segregation, but since some of us have integrated, as un-hyphenated Americans we don't think as a group, and when we do, we think it is anti-intellectual or racist to affirm our goals as black people....
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smarti

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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 08:04 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Yukio. Can you recommend any books (nothing too heavy please!) about the history of Liberia, or more generally West Africa?
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yukio

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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:32 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Check basil davidson's "liberal" histories of africa. I'll ask around for something specific to West Africa and Libera. The question you asked, pertaining to the "founding" of Liberia, may not be found in a book on Liberia, since a book about Liberian history would go into the indigenous history of the peoples not necessarily the intrusion of ex-slaves and the ACS. It may however, tell you a bit, but since the ACS and the ex-slave didn't really "discover" Liberia, they may only be a footnote....who knows?
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Cynique

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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM wrote:
Until all Africans (Natives & Diaspora) aggressively develop and execute open, accessible, effective, competitive and religion-free methods of Education, Science & Technology, Commerce and Government; ALL Black people will continue to feed, gag and CHOKE from the arsenic-laced milk of Europe/US and wreak havoc upon each other.

Cynique replies: in another post, you stated you didn't understand my response to the above statement. Well, it just sounded to me like you were advocating that AAs invent new technologies and sciences and economics, a suggestion that led me to respond that the laws of science and technology and economics are standardized and are already in place, and that what AAs really needed to do was to find ways to tap into the ones that already exist. Yes, education and politics are fluctuating entities, but they are also personal strategies which require individual decisions. i.e. a person has to decide for himself who to vote for and whether to stay in school and get an education. Admittedly it could be observed that I am nit-picking. Actually, what AA s really need to do is to acquire a collective consciousness which, among other things, motivates blacks to revise their indifferent attitudes toward teen-aged pregnancy, the matrix which spawns so many problems.

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