| Author | Message | ||
     Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
They claim it's for religious reasons, but as black American writer Greg Kane, myself and others have noticed as of late--there is a growing new "conservatism" in Egypt and one of its aims is to crack down on the infiltration of "black" imagery in positions of influence in their borders. In other words, my father's homeland is one of the most colorist nations on earth--and yet people refuse to take this fact into account, because colorism is the one element of racism that is hardest to pinpoint but the most effective in ethnic "distribution" of Genes/Chromosones as well as the mind politics. People here say--"But Sadat was their leader". But they have no knowledge of the facts about Sadat's life or his personal beliefs on race. It's amazing how so many of us don't understand "race"--and the different but similar systems world wide for eliminating the humanity of one PARTICULAR race. When I was an actress working in Egypt, it was not unusual for the financier or the Religious Cleric on a project to say to the director--"You must change her character from a street vendor..to a prostitute. She's "abeed" (slave/nigger/black) stock. We can't have her as a street vendor. And take off the makeup. She's looking too appealing. Darken her up." When I was a kid, I recall that my black American playmates couldn't understand why I was ASHAMED to be half Egyptian. To the Americans--those Arabs are "real Egyptians". But to me, they are not--they are as my own Arab father called them--"Invaders". So now they're showing "The Mummy" and "Tomb Raider" in Egypt...but not "THE MATRIX". Oh well. All we dark girls from the Nile can do is try to keep spreading the word. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Kola: Interesting! I think that people don't understand these issues, because they assume common "african" ancestry begets common political ideology, as well as assume that "race" functions or works similarly in each place and time, forgetting that things can/can not work the same, but similarly, and yet have different/similar names, codes, and/or signs. Hence Sadat, an anti-colonist, would seem less likely to be a colorist, but as you have illustrated concerning Du Bois, one's political politics don't necessary mean that they are advocating the freedom and opportunity of all. In addition, they don't know much African history( not that i'm an expert), so that they don't appreciate the particularities of national and continental nuances. | ||
| daniecia Rating: N/A |
Here's the story about MATRIX banned in Egypt. As Kola pointed out, interesting that they would be showing The Mummy and Tomb Raider right now, but not MATRIX. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20030611/en_afp/egypt_us_cine ma_matrix_030611170319 | ||
| anonymous Rating: N/A |
So this explains why I could find Celine Dion, Mariah Carey and Shania Twain CD's in Cairo, but not Whitney Houston or Patti LaBelle? In fact, they had never heard of Patti or Sade. Overall, though, I had a great time and they were very friendly and welcoming to this black brotha, though I can't be sure that Kola's ruminations on "who is black" would include mio. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Anonymous: Perhaps, and I'm only suggesting, that the Egytians were "friendly" to you is because of (1) your nationality and (2)your money. I'm sure that the US dollar has greater value than the Egyptian. Consider that your blackness is not the same an a darker skinned Egyptian. Your Nationality is more important, firstly. Not being "black." None of us are "black." We are all part of some nation and many ethnicities, assuming that you claim them, so that you are an American black person, whose value is much greater than an black Egyptian. For ex. I am an African American, not black, not black American, etc... If you call yourself black, you have to specify, since we are living in a global world. In Egypt calling yourself "black" would mean something very different from what you believe it to mean in the US. Also, identifying yourself as black within a global world assumes that your conceptualization of "blackness" is the only one. Your passport, social security card, money, and credit are your identity, and regardless of what you think of the US, the Egyptians have to deal with them if you are mistreated in any real way, while an African Egyptian, who is politically at the bottom of the totem pole, is just a nigger, as many of us are here, will have to real recourse since they are virtually politically disenfranchised. In other words, these issues can not be purely understood in terms of "colorisms." Though the issues are similar, the nuances and the experiences are different. Just some thoughts, no beef ok. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
Yukio, that's exactly how it is in Egypt and also in my home, Sudan--which are basically the same country. I was so glad that someone else answered it--but I also wanted to share a few more tidbits with you that I think you will find very interesting. Sudan is just the poorer, "terrorist" twin that does the bidding of its former colonizer, Egypt. Both are tied together by the Nile river (Sudan actually has more pyramids than Egypt--about 320 more) and they are both tied together by....a Black mother (Cush and Nubia--which is the same tribe). Colorism, however, overrides "nationality" in that part of the world...because although being AMERICAN will elevate your status and PROTECT you..it definitely depends what COLOR of AA you are. For instance, they would be glad for Louis Farrakhan to settle in their country...but would bemoan the very dark black Marcus Garvey. When I was a child, Yukio of 5 and 6--Farrakhan (who is a hero in N. Africa) used to come to Sudan and would proclaim that he was NOT A BLACK MAN...but only a Muslim. He distanced himself, in the newspapers, from the black population of Sudan--by claiming his "white and Indian" blood. I remember the painful disappointment that gripped my Arab father when his hero came and did this. So you see, an American would have to decide to "stay" as a citizen to get some idea of what the culture is like...and then, it would only be based on many variables. When Maya Angelou lived there (Egypt), she was married to her very darkskinned South African husband--so they posed no threat to the hierarchy, because they were both Black African Foreigners of Prestige, Wealth and Repute. They were not going to IMPREGNATE and create a black child of "valid" Egyptian name and blood. I am an Arab and an Egyptian by birthright. But I look almost TOTALLY black. In fact, I look more like the Black Americans who raised me than like the Waaq tribe or the Arabs of Kom Ombo--my actual bloodberry. So I was treated according to my color...and put up for adoption by my grandmother--to save the reputation of the Kolbookek bloodline. **If I had been a male, however, they would have kept me. It's the STAIN of black blood that is reviled by the Arab ruling populace and they employ mechanisms for keeping their "white purity" (as Arabs are white). A whiter-looking Black American WITH MONEY...would be preferrable if they had to accept him into their community as a citizen. And because the male does not transmit culture to the offspring...a black American FEMALE who looks black would be highly despised and a "threat" to their social order, because she will more than likely want to identify with Africa. Just ask Somali supermodel IMAN who refused to denounce her "blackness" and publicly embraced it in Egypt. With me, they could not take the Bint Harith name from me, but they could prevent me from bringing more "black men" into the culture via my womb. This is NEW to black Americans, as you have NEVER been allowed to "negotitate marry" in America with your rulers. But in the otherworld...it's a very old and antiquated racist system of peacefully "breeding out" and weakening the black tribes so that they can be replaced and then "illiminated". Their own mixed offspring, in some cases, literally become their direct oppressors. Sometimes my crazy diatribes (crazy here to you all)...are passionate warnings of what can happen if you don't pay attention to the attitudes of people like Tiger Woods and Vin Diesel. Once they get enough population...they will turn on you and hate you for giving them the stigma of blackness. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Yes, I understand and appreciate the post! | ||
| Chris Hayden Rating: N/A |
Yukio: Playing the devil's advocate (usually Troy's role) here with the term African American in our present world what does "African" mean? I of course embrace our African heritage and make it part of my art. I notice, though, that a lot of blacks embrace as the motherland other parts of the continent, such as Egypt, when most, if not all of us in this country, are from West Africa, the area from which the English imported slaves. Another problem, brought to me when I discussed Africa with an African. "There will never be a United States of Africa," he said almost gleefully. I thought about it. The Nigerian in all probability identifies himself as Nigerian after he identifies himself as Yoruba, Hausa, Ibo, etc. This is the case in most of what we call countries over there, which are not nations set up by the indigenous people but geographical territories drawn by the colonial powers. When we were brought to this country, our tribal identities were deliberately obliterated. I am told that many Africans can tell what ethnic group we are likely descended from, but we do not have this information in the sense that even the descendants of the meanest Irish immigrants can tell you his ancestors came from County Cork, the German can tell you he was from Bavaria, etc (and make no mistake, this specific knowlege is very important to their sense of self--tribal differences, though less pronounced, exist all over Europe and not between the various so-called nationalities, but within them. Normans in France see themselves as very much different than Alsations, for instance. I'd like your, and anybody else's comments on this. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Chris Hayden: I think an African is a person from the Continent of Africa, and I would also argue of African descent. Not colonizers still leaving in respective African countries. Of course this is my bias, and I state this up front. The specifics that you addressed, ie nigerian and Yoruba, Fulani, etc..., these are national and tribal identities. So far in the larger schema, we have a continental identity(african), national (nigerian), and ethnic(Yoruba). As it regards this statement: "Another problem, brought to me when I discussed Africa with an African. "There will never be a United States of Africa," he said almost gleefully." There are many interpretations of this comment, so you need to explain to me what you think he/she meant. I would assume that he/she is suggesting that black Americans are not African. I've heard this many, many times. Yet, i've also heard other Africans, Nigerians, Kenyans, Ghanians, embrace me and black American as Africans. Personally, I would not let anyone define who I am, so that the African's comment means very little to me. Just because the person is African does not give them the right nor the authority to identify me. In addition, and here is where many disagree with me, I don't necessary accept Africans' or any "old world"(Europe/Asia/Africa) culture's definition(s) of Identification, as it pertains to "New World"(of the Americas) people(Even if it is an Old World identity, i still need to consider things for myself). As i have stated, their are many understanding of race and especially identity; There are also newer and more interesting and nuanced conceptualizations of identity. This takes me to your comment concerning Africans and Europeans tribal markers. We can not identify our tribal identities, which would possibly enable us to identify our country, yet how far do we want to go back, since West Africans, as far as i know, were originally from East Africa, near the Sudan; I'll check or Kola can give us some help; I'm not exactly sure. The point is that (1) clearly we can be defined by old world terms since our identities have been shaped in the "New World," so that we need to examine and analyze new world and old world identities to understand ourselves(and their is research on this, btw) and (2) we are from the continent of Africa, except we were stolen. Africans born in the continent can identify their progeny, but those that can go quite far back will tell you that they weren't necessarily indigenous to the particular country in which they now reside(this is clearly not the case for all). Now, to put all of this into a nutshell as it relates to black Americans or African Americans, I am not African; i was not born there(BTW, I am not a black American, who, i think, is American who happens to be black and who has no ties to African American culture or political interests. I am African American who has poltical and cultural ties with African Americans and people of African descent). I am American, born and raised in North America(my continental identity, as are Mexicans, South Americans, and Caribbeans all share the American continent, though the US(an colonizer/imperialist) likes to co-opt a continental identity for itself, a nation). My nation is African America, not a soverign territory, but a cultural group, with cuisine, music, fine arts, literature, philosophy, etc.... I see it this way(and this too like all of what i have said is debatable), we when were stolen we brought our bodies, labor, and our spirituality and cosmology, so that African American culture is not African, but it is "Out of Africa." It is has the substance of Africanity, especially since it is a synthesis of many African tribes, as well as the native American, and European, but it is fundamentally African, i think. I consider myself a New World African, since i've been raised with an Africanized culture in the New World, and I am politically tied, my choice, with Africa and Africans; this is a process, and I life time journey in which i seek to immerse my self in African and African diaspora culture, so i'm not expert. I also have a tribe, and I have said this before too(and of course it is debatable), I am of the North-East tribe(remember new world identity). I say this to make the point that my nation(African America) has tribes, which are local (ask a Brooklynite if they are from Bronx, or vice versa, and you'll get an interesting response. Now, this is for real, since in certain cities have very diverse african American communities, since you may have Caribbeans and US blacks in the same communitity and/or you may have spanish caribbean, british caribbean, and US black folk, which accounts for an interesting population) and regional, which i tried to adddress to you indirectly when you tried to place a regional analysis to Troy's beliefs. You have even and similarly, indirectly, suggested these points, which are that black people in different regions are different people, with a common national culture, but a different tribal and regional culture: this we can see in food, dress, music, language--ie your point about St. Louis and Chitown folk being different from New York folk...this is real...and something any of us visiting different areas will see. Just some thoughts, and I hope i answered and addressed your questions. Please ask for clarification, if necessary! | ||
| Cynique Rating: N/A |
Devils' advocate or not, I couldn't agree with you more, Chris. In their desperate search for a heritage, I think it's pathetic the way some black Americans want to adopt anything from the vast continent of Africa. One of their favorite claims is that Cleopatra was a black woman. So what? None of her descendants ever ended up picking cotton on a plantation in America. And, - here we go again. LOL | ||
| Chris Hayden Rating: N/A |
Yukio: All of us are not Yoruba. There were many many tribes were were pulled from. What the African gentleman meant was that he felt he had little in common with the other ethnic groups in his own country (I think it was Malawi) and that he had nothing in common with the groups and citizens of any other. Basically he meant that there would never be any union, political or otherwise, of all the countries on the continent. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: |
Chris you made an excellent post that is very true--Black Americans (who ARE INDEED Africans) should identify with "West" Africa. Yukio is also totally right. Who is African? **All people who are directly descended from an African clan (tribe/bloodberry) are "African". They must also have a "tulat" name--they don't know have KNOW what it is, but they have to have it. That is our rule. Do not be fooled by upper class "snob/bougie" Africans who come here for schooling and say mean things out of either jealousy or disappointment in AAs. Also take note--many Africans are jealous of your AA worship of American Indians (as I confessed that I was). If we can see, which we can, that you are obviously a Yoruba-Fulani-Denkinyira...then it infuriates us that you do not mention it, but talk incessantly about "Cherokees, etc." Many Africans are also jealous that Black Americans are the most famous black people on earth...and that back home (in Africa)...the great mothers and women's zarpunni (the neighborhood of women--politically) are ALWAYS talking about their precious "lost children". It breeds resentment with the children who are still at home--constantly hearing about the absent American tribe. Black Americans, Jamaicans, Brazilians of very dark color, Haitians--all these are "Africans" by our rule, but in the case of the Black Americans--your group of African ancestors where forced to mix blood (unlike Jamaicans and Haitians). For instance, to destroy your language, the slavemaster mated a Mandingo man with a Ga woman (enemies!)...a Mende with an Ashanti (enemies!)...Denkinyira with an Ibo (enemies!). You know this new book "Who Shot Stagolee?" Get that book and STUDY the people's faces on the book cover. You will recognize them as Senegalese (Wolof,Ashanti,Fulani)--but they are Black Americans, too. Yukio is also totally right. The Negro race is the direct child of the Nilotic race. Africa is made up of two dominant, major "races"--the Nilotics (East African) and the Negroes (West, South and Central Africa). The Negro is the ONLY child of the Nile who did not lose their coloring, because they remained in Africa and simply migrated West and South. They are now...overwhelmingly...the most populous race in Africa. The Pigmy and Berber are two of the smallest races on the continent--the Berber, however, is not a naturally lightskinned race--they are lightskinned via conquerors and slavery--Berbers are also the greatest enemy of African people (even more than Arabs), because Berbers were the #1 African slavetraders selling to Spain, Portugal, France and the entire Arab world...and to this day...Berbers do not hide their "hate" for black Africans. But the Berbers are now ruled in their own countries by ARABS. For instance in Morocco and Libya--the Arab invaders took over. Egypt, however,is not a Berber nation--but is still ruled by Arab invaders. Nilotics (the first humans) are "charcol/blue black", EXTREMELY tall and skinny with thin noses, high angular cheekbones and wedge lips--large eyes (sometimes, the ones directly from "ancient blood"(asli)...have stick-straight hair). Nilotic women are known for an unusually "elongated" face and very large foreheads (I am Nilotic). Negroes, the children of Nilotics, range in color from blue black charcoal...to deep, deep Chocolate (the vast majority of negroes are a rich darkest Chocolate)...to NUT BROWN. They are shorter than Nilotics with thick, muscular bodies. The men are very "mighty" in strength when compared to East African men. Their females are world famous for the "high, round bubble butt". Negroes have wider, shorter foreheads than Nilotics (panoramic). They have large, full catepillar lips, wide, flat bellpepper-thick noses, a high but circular cheekbone and they produce "dimples". Their teeth are white like a horse. Their hair is ALWAYS "Africoid" (nappy--which they call "the proof"--the crown), but is soft and springy when conditioned in a natural African fashion. They also took Nilotic braids to a new level. We also have tiny races of PURE lightskinned Africans--the "red" people. My favorite Aunt--Ramah, was an Oromo the same as my mother, but Ramah was from the "red ant" Oromos in Tanzania. They are short negroid-type Nilotics with red or yam-yellow skin...whereas Mommysweet was a Gisi-Waaq Oromo (w/blue black skin). We have no explanation for why these lightskinned PURE Africans show up in small clusters in the rivers of the central part of the continent (Tanzania, Congo)...they just come out born that way. The sun only makes them get red. They have thick red nappy hair. But again...they are VERY rare to find. Their tribes usually number 50 at best (it takes 100 people to make a "Nation"). These are the only "light" Africans who are accepted as "pure"...because they are not the result of slavery or conquerors and they are EXACTLY like the black people. Cynique, no matter what anyone tells you--CLeopatra was a yellowskinned African "child" ruler. It was her, at the request of Rome, who created the "intermarriage law"...forbidding Egyptians to marry other Egyptians. They were forced to mate with other nations. This is why the Nubians call it, "The land that lost its color". If you ignore the White head Bust of Nefertiti that Europeans constantly show--and go look up the royal plates of Nefertiti and other sculptures of her...you will see with your own eyes that her face was not only Black...but "negroid". She was a dark brown black woman--of an Ethiopic type beauty. She probably looked like IMAN. King Tut's mother--Queen Tiye--was a Nubian queen given to Egypt in a peace treaty(all pure Nubians are charcoal colored). Queen Hatsepshut (the queen who ruled Egypt dressed as a Man and is considered their greatest warrior queen--was a pure black woman from PUNT in Somalia). Queen Nok of Nubia (Sudan) was celebrated by the Greeks and Romans...for her shiny "bald" head (a fashion statement she copied from the Queen of Sheba--whose real name was Kentake Abu CanCollo Makeda). Sheba was "blue black" just as was Moses wife--Zapporah, the Cushite. In ancient times--these Grace Jones looking women were considered "world class beauties". Highly prized and fought over. Queen Arso of Nubia (Sudan)--was the leader of a Lesbian/Amazon type tribe. Queen Atu of the Southern Nile had 177 husbands. Queen Amendiras practiced witchcraft--greeting her court, as she sat on her throne, with dead cobras flowing out of her vagina--to symbolize her power over men. Queen Leek (the redskinned queen--also known as AssisAmbi) trained an army of African killer bees to attack the Greeks and Romans when they tried to reach Kenya. She was squat and fat and always seen in public...covered head to toe in KILLER BEES. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
Chris....there are SOME issues, however, that ALL Africans...no matter where they are from...agree on. In the case of the Euro Caucasoid--every African nation is in agreement. And yes, Africans are Human Beings. They like to relate only to their immediate surroundings and culture. But don't fool yourself...Africans do have a "negritude", a shared Blackness...just as Europeans have a shared whiteness. The only Africans in Africa who don't associate with outsiders...are the Ethiopians. Ethiopians created their own language and religion--Arahmic--to separate themselves from anyone who is not Ethiopian. They live in a bubble. | ||
| Chris Hayden Rating: N/A |
Snake Girl and Yukio: I have to admit I was stunned at the African gentleman who made the statement about United States of Africa--how I asked him, would they be able to assert themselves and protect themselves against exploitation unless they stuck together? They were all sharing the same continent with no real natural obstacles to separate them, like the US CAnada and Mexico. Isn't the future in cooperation and eventual union? He chose not to see it. I don't think his future included Africa or any vision of it. I think he is still living here in the states. Snake Girl, that was some great history. How do you just rattle it off the top of your head. I wish you would do an essay based on the posts above (maybe you already have) | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Chris H: Of course, CH. We could not be from one tribe, since we are from many European carved out regions with along the West and Central coast: Senegambia, Sierra Leone, Windward Coast, Gold Coast, Bight of Biafra, Bight of Benin, Angola, and Madagascar.... Chris, the first section doesn't directly pertain to US, those born in the US, though i mention us for clarification. I wasn't saying that we were all yoruba. I was only using it as an example to make a point about two identities (nation/ethnic) which are often subsumed under the category/continental identity "African". The "we" pertained to you and I, as if in a discussion(this a habit from teaching),having had identified three identities. Thanks for the clarification on what the African gentleman meant. Ok, well, i'm not sure how much the African knew; indeed there are huge and vast differences among africans in the same nation, which accounts for different languages, foods, and of course, territorial and political conflict. And of course, there should not be an all embracing political contintenal idenitity. Yet, I do think that a continental poltical federation or confederation is necessary, for political and economic reasons, and also, there are studies that identify that there are broad cultural commonalities among africans(similarly these specific tribal change over time to create new tribes and cultures, as in the case where you have africans who have integrated their colonialist language and culture into their respective african culture, necessarily maintaining their substance. The change, however good and bad, is often necessary in order to insure the survival of their people within a new political and economic regime/basic change historical is all)not the same, but similar, and distinctive enought that continentally you know that they're not European. This is why one being African isn't the end all or be all, since they may not have the expertise to address these things...not that i do, BTW. Similarly, you can not talk to an black American and assume they can represent and know and have expertise on black americans or African Americans. Cynique: I don't disagree with you. Those people you address are often known as Afrocentrist. I am not an Afrocentrist. And though i don't think you were talking about me, I think i've stated how i understand my heritage. And i will do it again, to my chagrin: I am African American(national culture); i love my culture here, i love jazz, r&b, chittlins, hip hop...lol! our political history and self-determination, virtually making this country own up to it's precepts and we are not done; I am also continentally New World African(i believe African Americans culture is Africanized, not purely african), although i don't have immediate access to Brazilian, Jamaican, Barbadoes, and other Africanized cultures, but i do eat their foods, literature, and listen to their music, and I'm pan africanist, which means again, i do read literature, philosophy, eat food, etc.. from folks from the continent..... This is who i am...and there are others like myself...my education and upbringing made this so, not purely an intellectual endeavor. So that i can appreciate the Afrocentrists, but i think they are necessarily limited, since they don't study Africa, but Egypt, and they don't, like you said, know anything about african american culture, and i think that is limiting, since we are in the US and our issues, political, can not be resolved from being consumed with Egypt. The thread, i guess, that holds me together is that i see and experience these connections among africans(briths, french, etc..) african americans(we are internally colonized, like the native american, iniitally by the white british settler population and then by all "whites"), and caribbean folk(british,US, spanish, french, etc..). I do understand why others don't share the same thoughts and practices....I'm fine with black Americans, those who don't embrace, or even have ever had access to, African American culture. I just don't limit my idenitity to a national one, and so since Chris asked the question, I wanted to try to decontruct this term African and apply it first to Africans and finally African Americans. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
Chris-- I haven't written anything really. And I suspect that if I had not been transplanted in your country...I probably would not have much interest in our history. Back home--we rarely pay attention to our color or race--until an Arab is in our midst. Otherwise, we're just people. When I was a kid in Omdurman, the Zarpunni (women's neighborhood) would teach us daily of our heritage. This just normal African lifestyle. I also, in Sudan, learned about Queen Harriett Tubman and Queen Sojourner Truth (as they are called by many people in Africa). We also used to be given--"Black American Proverbs"-- "The mind is a terrible thing to waste." "Shake what your mama gave you." "My soul looks back and wonders how I got over." "No justice, no peace" (which is from the 1960's) "Each one pull one...out of the sun". Africans have a very deep, special love for Black Americans--but it's usually the poverty-stricken poor African folk, not the bougie class, who feel this infinity. And it's overwhelmingly the African females...not the males as much. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Kola: "Also take note--many Africans are jealous of your AA worship of American Indians (as I confessed that I was). If we can see, which we can, that you are obviously a Yoruba-Fulani-Denkinyira...then it infuriates us that you do not mention it, but talk incessantly about "Cherokees, etc." " I don't think it's jealousy, it is legitimate, especially when they are culturally African American(I hope it is clear from my posts, having the blood is not enough, but cultural embrace and politics matter, at least to me, so that i know what team you on). I also shutter when i hear black Americans (african Americans)parade their Native American blood; I have no problem with acknowledging your bloodline, but when its done to de-valorize your Africanity, it is problematic. | ||
| Chris Hayden Rating: N/A |
Yukio: You need to do some writing too. | ||
| Cynique Rating: N/A |
Native Americans just seem to have this irresistable mystical appeal, with their reddish gold skin, and high cheeks bones, and acquiline noses, traits that conjure up images of brave warriors in feathered war bonnets, riding bareback on white stallions, and serene inscrutable women with long black braids and beaded head bands. African Americans are not the only ones eager to claim Indian bloodlines, whites do it too. Civil war General William Tecumseh Sherman and even one of our presidents whose name I forget, took great pride in their Indian blood. I don't think you would find any white person who is, or was ashamed of having Indians in their family background. It's as if this is a badge of distinction. Go figure. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: |
Cynique, Africans also have a mystical appeal--in fact, there aren't any people on the earth more mystical than Africans. They have even higher cheekbones--and more frequently. And unlike those prune-wrinkled Indians, Africans don't age so horribly and don't have weak bodies that start to bend and decompose after 35. Of course, those are very cruel observations. But I'm just letting you in on the great disrespect that exists for any group of people who allow themselves to become extinct. This is a MAJOR badge of "worthlessness" where I come from. Extinction is not honorable. Just look at the state of Mississippi...not even two hundred years ago, they had two very huge Indian nations living on that land (indigenous to that land)....but today...there are 127 Indians in the entire state. Guess what? Most remaining Indians today--instead of giving birth to their own kind--are married to White folks. So you can see...their idiocy and their defeat continues. Their children are born WHITE. That's the respect they have for their own ancestors. And why wouldn't whites claim Indian blood...they systematically MURDERED that entire race...so their way of soothing their guilt is by claiming to be a part of it. They do the same thing with Egypt, the Moors of Morocco...of course, the Sicilians are not white enough YET to proudly claim their ties to African blood. Former Slave stock in America worships Indians (and wrongly credit Indians for their "cheekbones") because---"Her hair was so long she could sit on it." The slaves claimed Indian blood because of their hatred for their African negroid features (short nappy hair, dark chocolate skin, round gamine faces). It had nothing to do with the bravery and greatness of Indians...because the truth is...the Indians were big fools and cowards. Otherwise, they would not be extinct. Don't forget...the White Colonists spent 200 years trying to do in Africa what they did to the American Indian. It's the same situation--the Indians had an entire continent that was all their own. Ditto South America. The Aztecs and Incas of Central America. This is very dishonorable...to become extinct. It's a not to be respected. No matter how poor and downtrodden the people of Africa may be...they have their own countries, which means that eventually...one of them will rise. And as well as that, there is no glass ceiling to what they can accomplish. It took the United States almost 200 years to officially become a country (1776) and 100 years to become a super power. There isn't a nation in Africa (other than Ethiopia) that has been free from colonial rule for more than 50 years. So these countries are extremely young and are no more war torn (Indians), disease ridden (smallpox/plagues/polio) and corrupt (tea tax) than America was once was--before 1776. Africans have a bright if challenging future. The American Indian has none whatsoever. | ||
| Cynique Rating: N/A |
Kola, I don't think I have to justify or defend the observations I made about what is a peculiar fact. Nothing you say distracts from the fact that Native american blood is not considered a stigma. All of your ranting is not salient to the point. And those native Americans who are cleaning up with the gambling casinos might dispute some of your disparaging remarks. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
Here we ago again-- "money" from gambling casinos....crumbs....are considered some consolation for the wiping out of an entire race? Only a certain mindset would think of those casinos...those reservations (plantations/concentration camps) as "Prideful achievements". As I've told so many American Indians to their faces--"THey need to get with their own kind and make some babies and GET SOME RESPECT instead of relying on PITY." And us black folk are going to end up the same way if we keep putting our "Friendship" with the White man and his White mother...in front of our own damned children. Those are not RANTS...those are facts, Cynique. The American Indian is all but extinct..and no amount of casino money is going to make up for the lose of an entire race of human beings. | ||
| yukio Rating: N/A |
Kola: Is this a competition? Can we speak without one, in this case you, assuming that the affirmation, or at least an opinionated( though acculturated), explanation of a groups' mystic means that the person does not respect or love their own or another culture? Also, i can not argue with you about your beliefs(extinction as worthless), but it is a fact that the colonization of the Americas and Africa were quite different. Also, im sure that there are many other variables that contributed to the different results in the two continents beyond being honorable and worthy. Cynique and Kola: Obviously, anything that is different is often either hated, coveted, mystical. These qualites that both of you have delineated, and keep in mind that i'm not saying this is what you think, are often attached to people once they've been exiled, killed, or subordinated. This is quite different from seeing and learning about a tradition of brave and courageous people from your own group, as I assume it was for you, Kola. The images that we receive here(US) are those from our oppressors, not our foremothers and fathers, as in Kola's case, and the oppressors are not trying to instill dignity in ourselves as our own people(african/african American)would, but they are trying to "silence their past." In the US, the image of the Native American has been glorifed because they have been subdued, and they can afford to be "honorable, brave, etc...," because they are no longer a threat. Cynique,( and again i'm not disagreeing with your post but attempting to suggest how these images have been assimilated into American culture inorder to allay the US's attempt at extinction and how affirming a fabricated mythological past where the native americans was embraced{ie Thanksgiving} renders the US innocent of settler colonialism) the Native Americans that own the casinos are not one's baseball, football, and soccer, movies, and white americans glorify. The casino people are entrepreneurs and similar, so that they are not mystical but knowable and present and harmless too. With this is mind, I'm sure that many people black and white glorify Native Americans, but I think you two are talking about quite different reasons. Kola you are talking about, as i agreed, about black americans who do these things to devalue their africanity. Cynique people do this often. Kola, Cynique was not talking about the devaluation of africanity but solely how Native AMericans have a mystic, of redeemable qualities. I have tried to address how this "mystic" works in US culture and how some of us(and I'm not saying you Cynique) have been assimilated to uncritically accept these views. | ||
| Cynique Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I agree that the image of Native Americans over the ages have been romanticized. But, then, so has the image of Africa's glorious past. It amuses me how Kola conveniently overlooks the fact that all the degradation she attributes to the present state of Indians is just as prevelant among her esteemed Africans who are mired down in poverty, disease and corrupt governments. My only point is that people are so quick to accuse AAs of being enamoured of Indian blood. But, for whatever reason, so are whites. The fact that whites always considered black blood a stigma but had no problem with claiming any Indian ancestry was something I found interesting. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
Yukio and Cynique, I digress and retreat. But Cynique...just remember that those "esteemed Africans" (a great many of whom I DO NOT hold in esteem)...still exsist...by the hundreds of millions, despite decades of attempts to wipe them out and WAR against their tribal nations. The Ashanti and Congolese World Wars against European invaders...have never been documented as "World Wars"....BECAUSE THE AFRICANS WON. And it seems to me that I see certain qualities (ways of thinking..that are unnatural) in SOME American black women that certainly explain why it was it was possible to keep their children as SLAVES for over 400 years. There are women in Africa with this same defect. They put materialism, "good intentions" and their inferiority complexes in front of their children. I digress and retreat...because I cannot relate to your inability to put Black Children FIRST and foremost in everything you do. I see this as the reason that the Indians were "illimated" and I see this as the reason why Black Americans would rather give birth to Tiger Woods...instead of Kunte Kente. You can't relate either--so we will just have to change the conversation and salvage our sisterhood by sharing our new cake recipes. All my love. | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
Yukio, you might want to realize that when I sit around with women of Nigeria, Ethiopia, Senegal, Ghana and South Africa, chatting...I notice that we all have a JEALOUSY regarding the way AAs hold the "extinct" Indians in love and esteem...and not us. They will say in a minute--"I ain't no damn African"...but then praise their Indian grandmother...their Irish rapist grandfather. Those two they cling to. So yes, those Africans who love AAs...like me...feel very jealous and competitve at times. It's just that my being raised by AAs makes me bold enough to speak up, because I KNOW the AA culture and can "pass" as AA when I need to. | ||
| Claxton Rating: N/A |
Not to be one to rain on the proverbial parade here, but to me, where I end up is more important than where I started out. Both are important, to be sure, but consider that how you start isn't necessarily how you finish in life. I know a good deal about my family history, but certainly not all of it. From a standpoint of knowledge, it would be great to find out how far back the lines go. But I wouldn't count on that knowledge to get me much, other than the personal satisfaction of having the history. I'm sure that, somewhere down the line, the Scottish name that permeate my family were taken from someone not from Africa. That's the name on my driver's license, my paycheck, my bills and my property. I've never had anyone imbue me with another name since I've been alive, and at this stage of my life, I'm not sure if I would want that. You see, when it comes down to it, the last name, the tribal name, is a man-made construct. It's why we have names like Johnson and Thompson (to distinguish which son belongs to whom), Carpenter and Chandler (to describe that person's profession). And I'm sure there are plenty of African, Eurasian and Native American equivalents long lost to the ages. When we trace it all the way back, and take the name thing to the top of the house, there are two names that are of greatest import--Adam and Eve. To my immediate knowledge, they didn't have last names. Didn't really need them, back then. I don't know the entire story of my families' journies--not my branch, my sister's husband's branch, or my wife's branch--but what I do know I hold dear. It is my link to the past. But history isn't good for much; whatever I do from here out won't depend on that, so much as my own ability and God's grace to impact those around me. | ||
| Cynique Rating: N/A |
Claxton: All I can do is agree with what you say because it makes perfectly good sense. Kola: Great numbers of the stock which we call "Indian" did migrate to Mexico and are the ancestors of the Incas and Aztecs and Mexicans. They are not exactly extinct. And, does it occur to you that the condescending contempt you harbor for lighter-skinned African Americans may be why a lot of them don't respond to your message. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Cynique: I understand your post and your point. My post suggests that romanticism(whites especially) with native americans is because they are no longer a threat and that their "bravery" and way of life is more one with nature, etc... Whites don't do this with their African blood because even though alots of us are assimilated, we are STILL a threat and a PRESENCE that native americans have not been. Even white folks who say "i haven't done anything, my ancestors did" know that and fear us, so we can not be romanticized, only sexually...but that is another story! Kola: I think you abuse history when you limit a group's enslavement and colonization to their worth, honor, and/or whether their mothers put "materialism,"etc...in front of their blackness. You and I both know these issues are much complicated than that; Reread your own post concerning "pulse," where you bring out more complexity for one family's experience than you're willing to give to a "people" and hundreds of years. I respect you and your right to have particular values and beliefs, but as it relates to the questions of native american extinction and African and African American colonization, history tells us something else than what your cultural logic tells you. Regarding what you and other Africans sit around a table and talk about, i also and friends, african american, african, and caribbean, also sit and talk shit about those of us saying stupid and ignorant shit like, "I ain't no damn African"....we are not jealous, however, but angry and i actually distance myself from these people, because they do hate themselves and their blackness, and to be honest, it really, really angers me and hurts me, because i love myself, my people, but i'm rabbling.... Claxton, you're changing the discussion and the game. We are not talking about bloodlines, we are talking about how culture, in this case, US culture has demonized blackness and how black americans disassociate their blackness in favor of their european and native american blood. In other words, we are not solely talking bloodlines, by the affirmation of one at the expense of the other because of self-hate. This is essential, since you live not as a person with several bloodlines, but as a black person(now whether your performatively appreciate all of these cultures is another story, since it this would be done in private, but to publicly and consciously denigrate you Africanity is quite another story, quite another beast! | ||
| Snake Girl Rating: N/A |
And who, Cynique...do lightskinned African Americans have a condescending contempt for and always have? Human beings always despise those who oppress them or BETRAY them to their oppressors. You might have noticed, Cynique...that there is a growing contempt towards lighterskinned people (by Black people) world wide...and especially in the United States. Perhaps the reasons for that contempt should be explored by people like yourself. And while your'e at it...take note of the fact that this so called CONTEMPT hasn't stopped me from being the one to forge a friendship with you, connect with you, try to be a sister towards you. So maybe that contempt is not as "heartfelt" as much as it is intellectual. Otherwise, why would I try so hard to be your friend? | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Cynique and Kola: I'm "light skinned," and I have responded and I don't take what Kola says as personal, because there is a difference between black folk who attempt to ligten themselves by marriage and miscegenation and attempt to denigrate their africanity and those of us who are the offspring of black yellow folk, who procreated cuz they were horny and/or loved eachother...lol! It seems that yellow, red, etc...folk need not, as do our dark skinned brothers and sisters, valorize themselves "color," this includes you too Kola, because my politics is what's important not my complexion. The color becomes a "badge," and often it is wrong, often and not a signifer of much but the person's phenotype. And some us don't have any politics, just opinions, and thats ok too, for everyone can not be an intellectual, a soldier, or even a follower. Many are uninterested and are just living their lives, thats how it is and how it was and always will be....so lets engage eachother! | ||
| Cynique Rating: N/A |
Yukio and Kola, I find it easy to co-exist with your points of view. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. All I do is express my opinion. Peace. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Cynique: I know you can and know that you're not trying to change anyone's mind; you've made that point before; i just thought that we could address eachother on points and not necessarily go tit for tat; it seems that if we don't say things like "i disagree" or "agree" or "true," then it is difficult to know where a person is coming from. Expressing your opinion is one thing, but to dialogue is another, but perhaps i'm policing you guys ....so i'll "retreat," as Kola said. | ||
| Claxton Rating: N/A |
Yukio, I think you misread what I said...I'm not denigrating my Africanity or anything else. In a nutshell, what I said was we're all here, and the how of it is secondary. Despite how the media portrays us and the politicos treat us, black folk don't have a herd mentality. You may refer to yourself as an African-American, and that's fine by me. There are others who prefer not to get on that train. And does it really come as a surprise that some of our African brothers and sisters look upon us, and their own, as inferior, even as they are looked upon by others as inferior? I wouldn't classify that as self-hate, but I would call it immature, short-sighted, and just plain stupid. And if you notice some of the other posts here, I didn't change the game. Rather, I built upon some other points expressed. For example, the point that because Egypt has been highlighted as a bastion of historic black achievement and heritage was countered in posts above. While it might be true that some of my distant kin may have come from Egypt, perhaps even helped build the Great Pyramids or the Suez Canal, that wouldn't stop the first sidelong glance if I were walking down the street in Cairo. So understand the import of what I'm saying here. I've not chosen to ignore, deny or in any way dissociate myself from where I've come, nor will I ever, God willing. But I have also chosen not to cast aside my original identity to embrace that of another continent that also doesn't fully embrace me. | ||
| Yukio Rating: N/A |
Claxton: You have misread what I said! I neither agreed with you or disagreed with you. My post had nothing to do with identity either; the discussion went in many directions, and finally to the tit for tat between Kola and Cynique, with me as the "facilitator"...lol! This is what I wrote: "Claxton, you're changing the discussion and the game. We are not talking about bloodlines, we are talking about how culture, in this case, US culture has demonized blackness and how black americans disassociate their blackness in favor of their european and native american blood. In other words, we are not solely talking bloodlines, by the affirmation of one at the expense of the other because of self-hate. This is essential, since you(this does not pertain to you as a person, but the generic black person) live not as a person with several bloodlines, but as a black person(now whether your performatively appreciate all of these cultures is another story, since it this would be done in private, but to publicly and consciously denigrate you Africanity is quite another story, quite another beast!"(here i'm talking about participating in native american tribal rituals or african or irish or african american etc....). No where do i say or suggest that YOU denigrate your Africanity. I said that your focus on bloodline was not the focus of what Kola, Cynique and I was discussing, so in this case you are changing the discussion, as well as your introduction of Christianity. Similarly, you did "build" off of the Egytian commentary, but the dialogue had changed, so that i was trying to redirect what you were saying since it is tangentially related. Of course, you have ever right to write what you choose, so i apologize if you felt i was policing you. Nevertheless, and I reiterate, I did not accuse you of disassociating yourself from your Africanity; I wouldn't do that and more importantly, and the initial point of my reply to you, was that you never addressed the affirmation or denigration of africanity and the mysticism of native americans and Africans how these were related, which seemed like the focus of last few posts. | ||
| Claxton Rating: N/A |
Looks like we misread each other...Truce!! | ||
| yukio Rating: N/A |
Claxton: No need for truce; This was never confrontational!Good Day! Happy Fathers' Day to everyone! |
