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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 364
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 09:50 am: | 
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your views on stem cell research?
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 10:20 am: |
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Moonsigns,
If we permit abortion, we should fully allow and support stem cell research. Because if it is okay to kill an unborn child, what does it matter what we do with its body parts? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 365
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 12:53 pm: |
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Abm,
Good point! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 03:36 pm: |
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Abortion in the first trimester is not killing an unborn "child." Pro-lifers like to conjure up the image that a fetus is a little minature baby when in fact it is an embryonic blue print, a mass of cells that are not viable and cannot survive out side of the womb. Life is life, but living only occurs when breathing is present. (Obviously I am pro-coice and I will argue within the frame-work of semantics just as the the Pro-lifers do.) Or does abortion compare to the crime of bringing a child into this world and then allowing your boyfriend to shake it to death because it cried too much. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1730
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:03 pm: |
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Cynique,
Is a person 'more' alive at the age of 40 then at 20?
You must have download that stuff from the NOW website.
Look. I agree that abortion should be legal. Because this world has been orchestrated in a way that places an inconveniently pregnant woman at an incredible disadvantage. And as long as men are not made to suffer many...if any...such encumbrances, women should be free to choose.
But the whole notion that life starts at some 3 months after the event that caused life to begin is more fallacious than factual. It is just a legalistic ruse used to justify and sanction what we already want to do anyway. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1567
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:14 pm: |
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I don't have to download anything from NOW to think for myself, Abm. As I said, it's about semantics. Bacteria, for example, is life. But it is not breathing and is not living. And unborn fetus is not a living baby. Your question, asking whether a 20 year old person is more alive than a 40 year old one does not apply because they are no longer developing, just aging. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 160
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:27 pm: |
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I aborted my first son ABM.
I wanted that one to stay in heaven.
I gave birth to second and third boys and miscarried the fourth son.
Did I consider the aborted one a human life?
NOT REALLY, no.
Do I have any regrets?
Absolutely not.
I wasn't ready.
And as well....there is NO WAY that I would trust another human being to "adopt" and raise my children. I'd rather them be in heaven first.
********
But the idea of "Stem Cell" use...bothers me intensely. I don't like it, because it will only lead to more complicated scientific evil.
Just imagine how easy genocide could be carried out if we had to save the beautiful people once the SUN gets too hot for humans to live on land?
I am also opposed to this new technology where you can choose your child's skin color, hair and eyes, nose shape...before conception. That's evil to me.
I demand the right to abort children, because this is MY BODY and I won't share it with another human if I don't want to.
But I'm against the other technologies.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1569
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:31 pm: |
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Stop the presses! Kola and Cynique are in agreement about a subject. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:48 pm: |
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Cynique,
A 2 month old is still "developing" too. As is a 14 year old. Should we be free to knock them off too?
Again. I approve of abortion. I just don't think the argument that is conveniently used to support it is an intellectually valid one.
Kola,
I find it contradictory that we can kill a developing human yet not manipulate what's left of it. And I think it is that inherent duplicity that will ultimately compell us to consent to stem cell research.
And just because we disapprove of it in the US doesn't mean it won't be developed elsewhere.
So what will eventually happen is some French scientist is going to use the technology to invent some cure for Parkinson's Disease or Leukemia. Americans who are afflicted with those sicknesses are going to flout American laws to pursue those cure foreign-made cures. Then our government is going to be faced with the horror of criminalizing measures that people are desperately taking to save their lives.
And those other countries probably won't share your concerns about restricting the genetic manipulations that you decry. So don't be surprise if we suddenly see straight-blond haired, blue eyed native South African children inside of generation.
Ultimately, by not getting into the game, we may end up more negatively effected by what can ensue from it than if we sanctioned and regulated it. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1570
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 04:58 pm: |
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In answer to you question, Abm, no we should not be allowed to kill those who are existing out side of the womb and who are breathing. You can't compare a 4 year old child to an unborn fetus! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1733
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 05:06 pm: |
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Cynique,
Why not?
Both are still "developing". And neither would likely survive on it's own devices.
And if being able to breathe is a necessary criteria for preserving "life", should we be free to at anytime disconnect someone from a breathing machine that is keeping them alive? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 369
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 05:47 pm: |
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I am pro-life for myself. I am pro-choice for other women. However, I don't believe that abortions should be allowed after 12 weeks unless the mother's health is at risk. I definitely think partial-birth abortion is a disgusting practice! However, all and all, abortion is an extremely personal decision. One I'm not fit to make for other women. While abortion should be legal(IMO), I also think women need to be educated about birth control options, as well as given free contraception if neccessary. I feel tremendously for women who aren't presented with healthier options for their lives --all women deserve quality health care, especially when it comes to issues of sexuality and reproduction.
I ride the fence on stem cell research. I guess long run, I see more harm than good. I see the argument getting bigger and bigger. However, I was moved when I saw Christopher Reeves and his wife, as well as Michael J. Fox on recent, previously recorded talk show discussing this very topic. Just like voting, I'm torn on this thing. One part of me feels it's just not right, the other feels sorry for others who suffer and who could possibly be helped.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1736
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 06:05 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Come on now!
Do you REALLY think there isn't enough info being communicated about birth control?
Look. We can chat up birth control devices/methodology until we pass-out with exhaustion. But as long as foks can get horny and reckless, there are going to be a material percentage of women staring fearfully at the fateful results of a home pregnancy test.
And some might find your ambivalence on abortion to be both entirely appropriate and yet hypocritical.
What results from stem cell reseach will only be as wonderful or dreadful as WE are. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1737
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 06:08 pm: |
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Related observation:
Isn't it ironic that foks who consider themselves pro-choice are quite often against capital punishment yet pro-lifers ususually back CP? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 164
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 06:09 pm: |
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Well here, really, is the nail in the conversation and the only ultimate truth:
What results from stem cell reseach will only be as wonderful or dreadful as WE are.
***
Anything else said is just indulgence.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 165
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 06:10 pm: |
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Capital Punishment is NO PUNISHMENT.
Shit, torture the fuckers!
I say we bring back Devil's Island.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 375
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 06:23 pm: |
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Abm,
I think there is plenty of info out there regarding birth control, however, I don't think ALL women have equal access. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1739
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 08:27 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
And I think there are A LOT of women out there who have plenty "access" who still manage to get knocked-up.
And a high number of them get abortions. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 02:56 pm: |
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Abm, just for the sake of argument, infants and toddlers are able to survive unaided outside of the womb because their vital organs are fully developed. Yes, babies at some point will need care, but youngsters do figure out how to take care of themsevles if left alone. And, yes, in my personal opinion, if something is not breathing, then it is not living. It is simply a form of life. As for adults on life-support systems, they are having a machine breathe for them because they would become a dead organism if they couldn't breathe |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 179
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:28 pm: |
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ABM, since you have all these arguments regarding the morality of "abortion"....then why don't you "MEN" take all this technology and fix it so that your asses can get pregnant.
That would solve everything!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1750
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:28 pm: |
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Cynique,
The problem I have with your argument is the very premise that because something is not fully formed or cannot breathe on can to be killed. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1751
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:33 pm: |
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Kola,
I am not arguing the "morality of abortion". If you recall, I said I a pro-Abortion in large part because men don't share equally in the trouble associated with becoming pregnant.
I am just saying that REASON that Cynique gives for granting abortions is not a valid one.
I think it more appropriate to say that the decision of a pregnant woman take precedent over that of the unborn child. Since the mother is one at risk for all that ensues from that life-altering, even potentially deadly, event, she's within her rights to choose whats best for her. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 181
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:37 pm: |
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You're right ABM.
I agree.
And now I see.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1753
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 05:43 pm: |
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FINALLY!
JEEZ!
You chicks can be some dang hardheaded! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 07:01 pm: |
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Abm writes:
"The problem I have with your argument is the very premise that because something is not fully formed or cannot breathe on can to be killed."
Cynique responds:
What the hell does that mean???? Is that a "valid" rebuttal to my premise?? I said early on the semantics play a big role in arguments about abortion. It's the words a person uses to frame their arguments in that cloud the issue: Officially, Pro-lifers use the term "unborn baby", while Pro-choicers officially use the term "fetus." The words "life" and "living" connote different things to different people. So, we will never reach a common ground. You stick with your argument, and I'll stick with mine. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1760
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
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Cynique,
Simply: If all things go as they should, a healthy fetus will become a breathing, thinking, feeling human being...just like me and you.
So to me, all that sophistry about "when 'life' begins" is just a smelly bunch of bull$#*+! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1761
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:02 pm: |
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Cynique,
And why do you continue to argue when I have LONG SINCE agreed abortion should be legal? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:14 pm: |
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I signed off on my last post. But just for the record, we are not arguing about whether abortion should be legal. I'm arguing about what constitutes viable life. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1765
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:28 pm: |
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Cynique,
So then, say someone's in a car crash and they are able to stay alive only via respirator and IV.
Should his family be free to pull the plugs on him EVEN though he may regain his full capacity? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1588
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 11:39 pm: |
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No because he was a living person, not a live organism. And this argument could go on ad infinitum. |
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