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Kc_trudiva
Newbie Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 07:32 am: | 
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Did anyone catch Oprah on Friday? If not, the hot topic was this not-so-new thing among Black men - the secret fraternity of DL men.
I read the book last month and like Oprah couldn't put it down. J.L.'s candor kept my face contorted from various levels of disgust to shock. It's controversial and much needed especially with the alarming rate of HIV positive WOMEN (especially Black women).
Share your thoughts on what you feel the result of this book will be? Backlash, acceptance or nothing at all. |
Always_lurking
Newbie Poster
Username: Always_lurking
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 09:26 am: |
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I haven't read it. From the interview on Oprah the guy seemed like a complete ass, IMO. He also seemed like he wasn't as sincere as he was trying to portray. I still can't wrap my brain around the fact that DL brothers don't believe they are homosexual or bi-sexual. One statement he made that continues to haunt me is, "it's not about orientation it's about gratification." Well . . . if you want to be gratified by a man and you are a man does that not say something about your orientation.
It was sad to see those women on there who were victims. I think that brought it close to home. You are right though, this is nothing new. The only thing that is perplexing about it is that DL brothers don't think they are being gay or bi. My other problem with this particular guy is that he has set himself as the authority and spokesperson for all DL brothers as if he knows what every DL brother feels about the situation. Lastly, he claims he did it for his daughter but somehow that does not ring true to me.
I don't think there will be a great backlash. I hope women will be more aware about homosexuality in the AA community. Yes is does exist and we need to be very careful.
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Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 09:42 am: |
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always_lurking,
i don't really think J.L. set himself as an authority but he did reveal what he knows about the lifestyle based on his own personal experiences. according to his book, he started a website and solicited information from other DL men to use in his book.
i'm too am skeptical that J.L. is doing this becasue of his daughter. if that were true then he wouldn't still be indulging in the behavior. but i guess he figures since he's up front about it then it's okay. at least he's honest. ha! personally, i feel he's doing it because he too is HIV positive. this is only speculation on my part because he hasn't revealed his status...YET. |
Njanene
Newbie Poster
Username: Njanene
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 12:32 pm: |
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I received a pre-release copy of the book and it is pretty interesting. I read it in about 3 hours. In the book, he focuses mainly on his personal experiences, although he does include some information about HIV/AIDS, examples from other men, etc. I think the book should serve as a cautionary tale, if anything. For men and women everywhere, use protection!!!! |
Klb
Newbie Poster
Username: Klb
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 06:10 pm: |
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I caught this particular episode of Oprah and have extreme mixed feelings. I was thrilled to see such and worthy topic covered but felt that it could have done more intelligently.
I thought J.L. came off like an ass. I've read some articles that he was quoted in and he had some very intelligent and thought provoking points to make. Being on Oprah gave him a woody and he completely lost his train of thought. I do agree that safe sex messages aren't reaching the DL population because they are not being focused in the places that these men can be found . His points about how these men view thier sexual orientation were dead on. I won't get all long winded on y'all- I try to avoid the superpost.
We won't get into what white people think topic. I feel the way the Oprah show covered the issue failed to do it justice. It portrayed it as a shocking piece of gossip. psst, I saw a black man the other day........ and guess
what . |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 09:50 pm: |
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Hello All,
I am shocked by this thread, not the subject matter, but by you all's reaction. Haven't any of you read ANY of E. Lynn Harris's books? I admit that I have not been a fan of his later novels, but his first 4 I was on them. Did E. Lynn not feature characters like this in his novels? *eyebrow raised* Why are you all shocked? |
Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 06:57 am: |
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thumper,
i'm not shocked by the subject. however, E.Lynn presents it in his books as a "work of fiction" and even throws in that disclaimer saying it's totally coincidental if the ficticuous character has resemblance to a real life.
J.L. on the other hand presents his as non-fiction and speaks candidly. it's kinda like the realization finally "hitting home" for some even though deep down inside we all knew it existed. to me, that has more of a shock value than any fiction. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 07:50 am: |
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Hello All,
Kc:*LOL* Uh uh, you really thought that everything E. Lynn Harris wrote was made up? *eyebrow raised* I'm afraid not. There is some truths in all fiction. But, there are some Basils out there. Even last week, there was a Law and Order (one of my favorite TV shows) that featured black men on the DL. And the thing is you can't tell which man is keeping it on the DL. And just when you thought it was safe to start having sex again without using protection. For a number of years now, AIDS has been on the rise for women. How did you think the heterosexual, drug free, no blood transfusion woman was getting the HIV virus...from toilet seats? *eyebrow raised* And the same for men, even though the chances are less of a man getting HIV from a woman, it does happen. That's why the saying that when you sleep with a person, you're sleeping with every person (that you know of and DON'T KNOW OF) that your lover has slept with.
As you all know, I am not a big fan of Harris, but even I have to say, he tried to tell yawl, but yawl wasn't listenin. |
Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 09:19 am: |
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thumper: i was listening and E. Lynn's books did "raise an eyebrow" with me and i took heed to everything written. and yes, i know that there are some truths in fiction. but what i'm saying is that the subject had more of an impact on others who haven't read E. Lynn books. hell! probably haven't read a book...period.
J.L. put it out there on "front street" as they would say and now it's marinating in the brains of those who've been in denial, for so long, about the DL behavior. everything you say is true but still people have the "it can't happen to me" mentality and need shock therapy to realize that it actually can. even though a plethora of newspaper and magazine articles have been published on the subject, what good are they if people don't read them? people watch Oprah.
btw, i am a law and order junkie myself and i saw the episode you're referring to. |
Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 09:23 am: |
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klb,
it seems others agree with your assessment of J.L's appearance on Oprah. i visited his website today and was reading some of the posts. *shaking head*
http://www.livingdownlow.com/guestbook |
Abm
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 92
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:33 am: |
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I did not see Oprah’s show. And I don’t know whether I will read "Living on the Down Low". But I might, if it will attempt to thoroughly address/answer the following questions:
Are the only things that is really new about this DL thing is it is being openly discussed and that, sadly, many hapless Black women are being irreparably damaged by the clandestine of their male lovers.
Or is the rate of DL activity on the incline? And if it is, why?
For example, have the darker elements of the Hip-Hop culture so debased and trivialized the female, that men are turning to other men. Has the fact that so many Brother are/have done prison time and thus engaged in "jailhouse love" engendered a subculture of same-sex thug-love that has surreptitiously spread among many Black men.
Are many sisters being complicates in their own endangerment? I hear/read many Black women often concede to having unprotected sex with brothers, even though they know they are not in exclusive/committed relationships.
Could it be that MANY of these Black women knew or at least suspected their men were sexually ambivalent?
And how can a guy can swap orifices with other guys yet exclaim that he is NOT gay/homosexual? (That appears to be as blatant an example of self-delusion as one can observe.)
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 162
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:34 am: |
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All:
I keep hearing about this secret "fraternity" of Black Men on the Down Low. I have asked these questions and not gotten any satisfactory answers:
1) Do they have formal chapters set up?
2) Do they have rules, officers, and procedures?
3) Do they have meeting places?
4) Has someone actually done a headcount of them? To hear most folks tell it, there are literally billions of them.
5) Does anybody know somebody who is living on the downlow (I figure if it is that prevalent, then we all ought to know someone. I have known a lot of older black men who were living in the closet or came out of it (is that the same thing?) I don't know any down low brothers.
6)Is someone on the DownLow gay, bisexual, or what?
7)Are there any white, latino, asian, Native American men living on the downlow, or is it just black men? |
Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:55 am: |
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abm: morning love. according to the stats, this behavior has become "trendy" and is due in part to the large population of Black men who have been incarcerated and engaged in the "jailhouse love" while there. i happen to have a friend who's currently incarcerated and have heard the stories. the New York Times also did an article on this subject and touches on many of your questions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/03/magazine/03DOWNLOW.html?ei=5070&en=c7c672c8127 32442&ex=1082520000&pagewanted=print&position=
chrishayden,
as far as i know, "no" to questions 1,2 and 4. secret fraternity is just another coined phrase like DL. in regards to the other questions: 2) meeting places can be anywhere "straight" men generally hang out. they do not frequent known "gay" spots; 5) yes, i have a girlfriend who knows her man is a DL man but refuses to accept it. in fact she refuses to even be tested for HIV/AIDS because she says she "doesn't want to know" her status; 6) they are confused in a nutshell. so i guess your answer would be "or what?" especially since DL men don't consider themselves gay or bisexual; and 7) yes, DL comes in other races...especially White.
please note my answers are based solely on what i've read and testimonies. i am in no way an authority on this subject. i am woman. |
Klb
Newbie Poster
Username: Klb
Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:17 pm: |
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I''m certain that I won't read the book. I've followed the men who have sex with men trend for the last couple of years and in my opinion the rise in statistics among AA women comes from our unwillingness too talk openly about sex. We accept being acted upon instead of engaging. For all of the hip hop booty shaking in videos attitudes about sex in our communities are very dated. Black people are less likely to accept alternative lifestyles and we are quicker to judge our own very harshly for living such lifestyles. The homosexual black man catches much hell from black people (unless of course he's the chior director at your church), imagine the hell to be heaped upon the bisexual black man.
To a certain extent I can understand men who have engaged in same sex act in prison --forced or of thier own free will-- in prison who don't consider themselves gay. Prison is a world all its own. They separate thier lives in prison from the real world. That's why sisters need to start asking questions and being prepared for the answers. |
Akaivyleaf
Regular Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:26 pm: |
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Whew... I attempted to jump in early to this conversation yesterday. I wrote a verbose post and wouldn't you know, it was lost after I hit submit. Not wanting to be so talkative today I'm glad to see that others have touched upon the points I was going to.
I saw the show, I've read the book and first and foremost I must say I'm sickened. Unfortunately this is nothing new. As Thumper mentioned, E. Lynn Harris has been talking about it for years. Basil was living a double life for a long time and while fictional put us on notice way back when. I find it interesting that the finished book now contains a foreword by E. Lynn.
The jailhouse mentality has fallen into mainstream. The preception is that its ok to act that way behind bars because that is the key to survival, just cut that stuff out when you hit the streets again.
Its gone on before, its had different names over the years, the most common bisexuality but there have been instances of "swinging"- ooh thats what white folk call it. Sharing partners and sharing same sex partners isn't new.
What is new is now its being glamorized. Black folk always like to give things catchy phrases, then we sing about it, we put on plays about it, we joke about it until its accepted in our culture and all the time I'm shaking my head in disbelief. How can we let a brother get on national TV and capitalize on such a horrid thing. We've known that AIDS run amuck in our community. Its perceived and to some extend accepted that we don't like to use protection, we cannot control our sexual urges and we like it in all kinds of positions with all kind of folk around. I don't need this man to get up on national TV and show his arrogant tail and proclaim that he's not gay and offer no solutions. What was his point? |
Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 40
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:51 pm: |
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akaivyleaf,
and let the church say, "Amen!" preach on and your points have been duly noted and i even gave a couple of them a "Say it one mo' time." i think we can digress on this thread now. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 297
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 01:00 pm: |
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One aspect we haven't discussed about this behavior is that, from what I've heard, it very often goes hand-in-hand with the mind-altering drug "Ecstasy" a drug that lowers inhibitions and makes the sex-act the priority rather than the sex-partner. The guys engaging in it also like to dismiss it as just being recreational sex. However I've often wondered, while in my psycho-babbo mode, if this behavior doesn't have subconscious emotional roots, going back to the fact that because so many black boys have grown up without a male role model, men aren't strongly differentiated in their world and that in some perverted way they are finding solance in the embrace of a blurred absentee father. (Of course, many men who grew up without fathers are able to bypass this route because they at least had strong support groups that kept them being emotionally grounded ) |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 166
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 01:30 pm: |
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I suppose you could guess where I was going with this:
According to what I have been hearing, which almost all of it is through the media, this is a new thing (it probably is not) this is a mushrooming and more prevalent thing (could be, but I ain't seen any proof of it--but then again, they are living on the Downlow, so I guess they ain't walking around wearing t-shirts) and it is a black thing.
Like drug abuse, incest, rape, welfare and other behaviors it has seemed to be an effort to put a black face on something that all races are engaged in. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 101
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:00 pm: |
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Chris,
In response to your 11:34 am post:
1) Check the San Francisco and LA Yellow Pages.
2) Check TV/Cable’s Queer Eye For the Straight Guy and Queer As Folks.
3) Check your local bathhouses, adult theatres and bookstores.
4) Uh? I’ll have to leave the "HEADcount" (which sounds like it would be a VERY popular 'game' among the DL set) duties to someone who ‘enjoy’ dealing with such (if you know what I mean).
5) Wouldn’t you have to "be" on the DL to "know" someone on the DL?
6) I vote they are all of the above.
7) Yeah, there are many non-Black DL’s. But none of them go "downlow" with quite the ‘flare’ and ‘pizzazz’ of brothahs. (HAHAHA!)
Kc_trudiva: afternoon lust(hehe!).
Thanks, though I had already read the Times article. Chilling, huh?
Here is a discussion we ‘Thumpites’ had that was inspired by the NYT article:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/179/449.html?1060313290
Klb,
You raise some worthy (though somber) points. Perhaps we must evolve from our threadbare notions of sexuality. Still, I will continue to fault/indict DL men (and straight ones too) if they continue to recklessly place themselves and other in harms way. But maybe we will grow more accepting of the GLBT lifestyle, if for no other reason but to learn what we need to know to stay alive. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 300
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:03 pm: |
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Right, Chris. People in the public health sector say the down-low phenenmonon is greatly exaggerated as a source of HIV among black women. Prostitution and drugs are still the main culprits. And this "synonym for bi-sexuality" has been going on forever; in all races. |
Klb
Regular Poster
Username: Klb
Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:06 pm: |
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KCTD,
Don't digress we gave the Are we snobs post 47 hits. LOL, I think you missed the Kola Boof screw up. It clearly proved that we all need a hobby.
Chris,
From your post in the link --I'm kind of disappointed- You know it takes a village.
I couldn't get in the site and I don't want to sign up but I have heard about this phenomenon (and am amazed that those reporting on it can come up with numbers and percentages of brothers engaged when the whole aim of their game is to be anonymous).
Why do WE need to address this issue? I ain't doing it (though I must admit if I was I wouldn't admit it)the women definitely ain't doing it since it is a male phenomenon--
Ain't this something the Brothers on the Down Low ought to address?
Not going to let my passion turn into preach. I'm jumping off the train with KC |
Klb
Regular Poster
Username: Klb
Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:09 pm: |
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KCTD,
Don't digress we gave the Are we snobs post 47 hits. LOL, I think you missed the Kola Boof screw up. It clearly proved that we all need a hobby.
Chris,
From your post in the link --I'm kind of disappointed- You know it takes a village.
I couldn't get in the site and I don't want to sign up but I have heard about this phenomenon (and am amazed that those reporting on it can come up with numbers and percentages of brothers engaged when the whole aim of their game is to be anonymous).
Why do WE need to address this issue? I ain't doing it (though I must admit if I was I wouldn't admit it)the women definitely ain't doing it since it is a male phenomenon--
Ain't this something the Brothers on the Down Low ought to address?
Not going to let my passion turn into preach. I'm jumping off the train with KC |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 167
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:33 am: |
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Abm
1) I don't live in San Francisco or LA
2) Don't those feature openly gay men? What about men on the DownLow?
3) See answer to #2
4) I suppose your answer is no--so no figures exist
5) I know gay people and I'm not gay
6) How are they all of the above?
7) So more black men are downlow that white, asian and latino (who outnumber them 9 to 1)? And if you are on the downlow, which I assume means you are hiding out, how do you do that with flair?
You see where I am going with this. This appears to be a phenomenon that plays to an Oprahistic American society, that is one living in a self induced state of hysteria looking for something else to get alarmed about.
Klb--Explain to me how me railing aloud about Brothers on the Down Low in a forum which none of them may be reading about is going to have an affect. This is this 21st Century yuppie phenomenon where people have a meeting and think they did something. They didn't do anything but sit up and talk. All it comes down to is an "amen corner" type of thing--"I think brothers on the down low is bad" "Yeah, speak that truth brother". Now what happened. Did anybody stop? Was anybody cured? No. I got to stick out my chest and say I put in my 2 cents. Brothers on the downlow know what they are doing is harmful--which is why they are on the down low.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 108
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 01:00 pm: |
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Chris,
1)Well, I am sure you can find the SF/LA listings on the web. That’s, of course, assuming you are REALLY ‘motivated’ to find them.
2) Yeah, but I’ll bet, if you look closely, these shows/others will reveal some common signs/indicators among all of those who "live the life", whether they are ‘out’ or DL.
3) I think the last years NYT articles said that DL’ers are also inclined to ply their ‘wares’ in these haunts.
4) I was trying to be facetious. But to address your original question, I think it is possible to garner some reasonable estimates. But in my prior response, I tried to (jokingly) infer that one would likely have to ‘be’ on the DL to close enuff to the accurate sources of info.
5) I, though straight, know ‘outed’ gay people. I don’t know anyone on the DL. Wouldn’t the fact that I, who am NOT on the DL, know they are gay preclude them from being considered on the DL?
6) Because I am of the humble opinion that if you are double dippin’ with a dude, YOU ARE GAY. You can add Bi, DL, Tran’, whatever you want. And you can be married, a father, a grandfather, an Eagle Scout, I don’t give a @#$%! In my book, a man who has sex with another man is GAY!
7) I don’t know if there is a higher % of Black men on DL than non-Blacks. I, however, think there being less of an openly gay presence within the Black community may be driving some guys to DL status (The public, more accepted ‘face’ of homosexuality is almost ENTIRELY White.).
Also, I think a lot of brothers who might never have engaged in "the life" got acquainted with ‘it’ while in prison. And since Blacks are nationally imprisoned at about 9 - 26X (varies via State) of non-Blacks, so many more Black men are being subjected to the possibility of being sexually ‘turn-out’.
But I understand and agree with the sentiment of what you infer. Moreover, the furor behind this whole DL thing can be indeed be a not-so-veiled attempt partake of one of America’s favorite pastimes: Demonize Black men. So, I concede we Black foks would do well to tread lightly here.
My compliments to you, Chris. Because, actually, I intend only to joke about this subject. But your questions/responses compelled me to be a little more serious/responsible than I had intended to be. |
Klb
Regular Poster
Username: Klb
Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
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Chris,
Like I said before. I'm not going to jump on the amen express. I'm often flustered by the tendency to avoid serious conversation ( me included). If we don't have meaningful discussions about the hard topics what's the point. Believe it or not your 2 cents is worth more than you think. It's exactly this type of discussion that inspired me to deidicate my time to this cause. We all spend a lot of time on this board and grow to feel as if you know the regular posters. I was suprised by your response. My it takes a village comment was a tease and not a judgement.
Amb,
More than the concern over deminizing the black male I think we should be concerned about how do we heal, save, and educate our community. History has already taught us aint no winning with white folk.
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Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 44
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 10:03 am: |
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all,
with the influx of information in this thread (that i happened to start) i guess i forgot to mention that DL is not just for "down low," it also means "double life." many people live double lives, meaning there are people who KNOW they have an incurable STD and knowingly put others at risk. this epidemic is far worse than the new "down low" craze.
that's really f'ed up but it's also a reality. the other day a friend of mine (who is a pharmaceutical rep) told me this: "i saw one of my docs today and he said a girl came in and found out she is HIV positive. she said she's going to take it back to the streets she got it from." *deep frown*
what the hell is this world coming to? so the overall message needs not to be, "investigate to see if your man is on the DL" instead it should read, "be adamant about getting tested for STDs/HIV BEFORE you lay down with someone." remember HIV isn't the only incurable STD - herpes and some forms of syphillis join its ranks.
no one can protect yourself better than you. and since you can't look at a person and tell if they are disease free, don't ASSume they are; looks are very deceiving. |
Emanuel
Newbie Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 10:36 am: |
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I heard about Oprah's show but didn't catch it. I just read that the book is now on The NY Times Bestseller list. Nothing like a little Oprah-exposure to get you noticed huh? Personally, it sounds like the book just repackages the term "in the closet."
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/books/bestseller/0502besthardnonfiction.html |
Lambd
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 11:17 am: |
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Not necessarily, Emanuel. "In the closet" is a term which simply means the person is keeping his or her homosexuality secret. "Down Low Brothas" are not only keeping it quiet, but lead a completely double life. For example: wife/girlfriend plus undercover boyfriend. Call it bisexual or whatever, the fact remains that they are living a bisexual existence while in denial. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 85
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 07:33 pm: |
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Hey Yall,
Chris,
A Friend emailed me the complete transcript of Oprah's show on this and it scared the sh#t out of me.
One thing that was so scary was that contrary to popular belief these guys consider themselves straight men who happen to like to swing with men too. According to the guys on Oprahs show, they don't want to be labled homosexual or bisexual and if you saw them on the street, you might think they were just another straight guy. The guy that wrote the book said that he would not be caugt dead in any gay bar, he said that was thier thing not his!
His favorite pickup place for men? CHURCH!! |
Kc_trudiva
Veteran Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 07:45 am: |
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a_woman,
the author J.L. King merely repeated everything he wrote in the book. he just added a little more dramatization to give it more of a "shock" value. if the Oprah transcript scared you, then the book is sure to keep your mouth open and eyebrow in "up" position.
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Akaivyleaf
Veteran Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 60
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 09:23 am: |
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Truly frightening A_womon....
The only thing I can say is that at least the brother was candid...not entirely truthful, but candid enough to make us all sit back and take notice and think! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 191
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:22 am: |
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Akaivyleaf,
I read/hear (what I think is) your native ‘Hotlanta’ is a festering den of duplicitous DL types. So maybe it would behoove you gals in that nap-of-the-neck to organize a collective organization and method of ferreting out those double-dealing dudes.
Maybe you can call your group "Go To H@!! DL!", which would also be a great rallying cry: Go To H@!!...DL! Go To H@!!...DL! Go To H@!!...DL!
BTW: If you create such a group and use the moniker above, please forward a 5% royalty fee on any monies received from sale of goods/services, memberships, promotional items, publications, conferences/seminars/parades, etc; to Attn: ABM of the "The Last Straight Black Man Society". |
Carey
Regular Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 35
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 06:11 pm: |
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It all sounds pretty nasty to me......naaaastaaaa!
Whew weeee. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 100
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
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ABM,
You are such a walking dictionary/thesaurus, couldn't you think of a better way to describe us ladies? "gals" is such an archaic term and also very sexist. :-)
Yes ladies, What I'd like to know, is how can we find out if a potential mate is on the down low? You KNOW they aren't going to admit it if asked.
They are still going to play that super macho role.
I'm single and dating so it is really a problem for me. I can't get it out of my head whenever a man approaches me now!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 195
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 10:18 pm: |
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A_womon,
Why yes, Milady. What noun to you require. "Lovelies"? "Queens"? "Goddesses"?
And BTW, if a prospective lover is an excessively "super macho" sort...that might qualify as 'a sign'. Because, as I am sure you know, the affected machismo maybe a ruse used to disguise his ambivalent sexual nature. Perhaps you ladies should consider this DL phenomenon to be an opportunity to more thorough discer what what qualifies as a suitable mate. Because, you may discover it is the guy that you consider the least 'manly'...who is really the truest 'man' of all. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 101
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 10:23 pm: |
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ABM
LOL!!! Yes that's better, you got jokes!!
And you have just made me even more scared thanks!
Are nuns still taking novices? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 198
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:26 am: |
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I too have read the Oprah manuscript and...BTW: "WHEW!"...was as taken aback by it as most. I am amazed by the self-delusion these men suffer. The whole notion of a man b-popping with other males yet wholly rejecting being tabbed homosexual is in of itself worthy of a year’s treatment in the psychology section of the Harvard Medical Review. But I think the most profound thing uttered during Oprah’s show was the question JL asked of women to ask themselves: "Am I willing to go share y man with another man?"
The HIV/AIDS issue, though profoundly grave, does on some level obscure what this DL thing is really all about. Because H/A is not an inherent product of homosexual behavior per se. It’s the product of reckless behavior, regardless of sexuality. And say H/A is cured tomorrow. Then what? Will sisters be any MORE emotionally amendable to their hubby’s swapping ‘nutes’ with the cable guy post-H/A than they are now?
I doubt it.
And I for one have always believed that a major part of what is called male homosexuality, and this DL phenomenon in particular, is REALLY about men being able to perform the male sex act whenever, however and with whomever they can without someone...namely a ‘woman’...putting social, economic, moral/religious (and maybe even legal) strictures on when/what/how they do-the-‘dew’.
You could probably argue it is an EXTREME version of the reason why many married men cheat with hookers.
Frankly, I think these men are doing things ‘to’, ‘with’ and ‘for’ each other that would HORRIFY most (often ‘good Christian’) Black women.
PS: Yes, A_womon. I'm sure your local Catholic nunneries will approve your application. I'm sure they'll appreciate any enthusiatic recruits, especially considering the current PR problems. And I hear, these day, they don't compel you to wear those ghastly gowns and hobits. So you can keep your DKNY...and even your perm. |
Akaivyleaf
Veteran Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 61
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 10:51 am: |
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ABM, I like your group idea and I'm just the person to start it. If there are profits to be made, I'll duly consider your 5% royalty fee.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 103
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 11:57 am: |
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ABM
On second thought, I withdraw my request about the convents--I forgot that order is dealing with a morass of problems of their own! Don't need no more drama! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 199
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 11:58 am: |
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Also, I think what is occurring here is the male bodice is, largely for capitalistic reasons, being sexualized in a way that had previously been reserved solely for women. You see this in how finely tuned/toned/coifed are the bodies, hair and fashion of our male celebrities. Note, for example, the contrast in the physiques of today’s athletes, singers, movie/TV stars, etc. versus their flabbier, less muscular predecessors.
In generations past, men were prized more for what they ‘did’, than how they ‘looked’. But, largely via technological developments, we have ‘evolved’ into an era of the ‘metrosexual’, where many men - who don’t have to exert themselves as strenuously as their fathers did - are as inclined to spend as much time at a day spa as their wives. Thus, many men are now, not so subtlety, competing with women for physical adoration. A glaring example of this is hip/hop media - and music videos in particular - where the beauty of the female has been virtually supplanted by that of the male.
How does this help effect increased DL activity: All the increased glorification of the male body has activated within many men otherwise latent homoerotic urges (that many harbor to varying degree) to a point beyond their ability to sublimate.
And, to repeat, if we are going to have a society where at any point +1M Black males do prison time - where b-popping is often a vital, even involuntary, form of currency - we are helping to engender a generation of sexually ambivalent Black men.
I am saying all this to say that we may not be able to understand, curb and/or reconcile this DL issue, and it’s consequences, until we address other issues within and/or influencing our communities...many of which are not directly related to the contentious issue of to whether, how and to whom a man chooses to aim his groin.
PS: Thanks Akaivyleaf (Gottah LOVE an AKA!). I ain't greedy...buttah brothah likes tah git PAID! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 438
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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Just to add a little perspective to this subject, I will share some points with you that a black female columnist for a major Chicago newspaper wrote. She cautioned people to take what the author of this book says with a grain of salt, - that he doesn't really have the welfare of black women at heart; he is really trying to make money, and what better way to do this than to pick a sensationalistic subject and write a book about it. Next stop: Oprah's show and the nation-wide exposure that will send his book flying off the shelves, and put big bucks in his pocket. This is not to say that this situation doesn't exist, but it is pushing the panic button to think that the average black brother is out there participating in secret orgies with other men. Of course, it won't hurt to keep your gay radar on alert because there are certain indicators that will help you to spot these imposters who, if they are practing this type of behavior on a regular basis, are gay men in denial. (Yes, very often young people of both sexes and all races experiment with same sex encounters, but the vast majority of them move on.) |
Kc_trudiva
Veteran Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 61
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 03:14 pm: |
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abm wrote: "Note, for example, the contrast in the physiques of today’s athletes, singers, movie/TV stars, etc. versus their flabbier, less muscular predecessors."
hmm, i'm ohh so curious to know which category you would fall under. *spanking hand* neva mind.
cynique: i agree that he (the author) is capitalizing on this subject and putting a somewhat exaggerated amount of fear into black women. as a result, many may become leery of ALL men and inadvertedly pass up a "good, straight" black man. yet, the need to be cautious still exists. simple questions about HIV/STD status can be a important starting point for many. if you're not sure, then don't play russian roulette with your body by having unprotected sex. period.
let's be real. the whole point of being DL is keeping it on the down low...by any means necessary. right? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 202
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 03:50 pm: |
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Cynique,
Thanks. You make some points that bear considering and seconding. The J.L. (the former D.L.) is indeed the clever opportunist (He reminds me of that ‘guy’ who manages to burn even those who already knew he was the ‘Devil’). And, besides, homosexuality - open/closeted/DL - has ALWAYS been with us. So J.L.’s book doesn’t chart any new course.
I think, though, what is fueling the noise/hysteria is the deadly specter of HIV/AIDS that allegedly accompanies DL life, which is apparently being spread to 1,000’s of unsuspecting Black women. I’m sure were there no H/A, this DL commotion would hardly register a blip on the media Richter Scale. But, because of H/A, even if the actual number of men who are recklessly straddling the straight-gay worlds are relatively minimal, their sexual involvement with just a few woman over the course of a few years can still trigger havoc amongst us all.
Moreover, we really don’t KNOW how prevalent the DL life is.
But consider this. Let’s say that only 2% of the estimated 15M Black males are DL, that’s still 300,000 men. And if, per the CDC, 30% of DL’ers are H/A+, then that’s 90,000 men who can pass H/A unto women. And what if they have unprotected sex with at least 10 women over the course of a few years (which for some guys can be racked up inside of a summer’s vacation), who then have sexual relations with other men (and/or women), get pregnant, share needles, etc.? So even a small number of reckless DL’er can help engender an environment that indirectly jeopardizes the lives of millions.
That is why I predict, very soon, there will be a wholesale acceptance of homosexuality within the Black community, not so much because we want to, but we may be compelled to embrace homosexuality so as to acquire the info and understanding we need to protect ourselves.
Kc_trudiva,
I am middle-aged man who has gleefully earned all the 'flab' he has. I do, however, have this one muscle that is every bit as 'hard' as...("JEEZ! Just when I try to pull myself 'out' they pull me back on top of them." ) |
Ylonjure
First Time Poster
Username: Ylonjure
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 06:59 pm: |
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I THINK THIS BOOK WILL OPEN UP NEW TYPES OF "DOWNLOWS" SUCH AS THE HOUSEWIFES WHO ARE ON THE DOWNLOW. THE AUTHOR DID NOT WRITE THIS BOOK TO SLANDER AFRICAN AMERICAN MEN, BUT TO MAKE WOMEN AWARE OF THIS NEWLY DEVELOPED FRATERNITY. |
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