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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 996
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 02:16 pm: | 
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A quote from Marie Brown, Agent Supreme, is going 'round that the hardest type of book to sell is a literary novel by a black male.
Discuss. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1967
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 05:46 pm: |
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When's the last time a black male wrote a literary book?? LOL |
Rashena
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rashena
Post Number: 118
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
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Colson Whitehead? John Henry Days, perhaps? LOL!
I love Marie Brown!!! And I could certainly understand why she'd say that...street lit is what publishers are snapping up right now... |
Marechera
Newbie Poster
Username: Marechera
Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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Charles Johnson's Dr. King's Refrigerator and Other Bedtime Stories (febr. 2005) |
Marechera
Newbie Poster
Username: Marechera
Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:45 am: |
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JohnEdgarWideman's God's Gym |
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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Pulitzer Prize winner Edward P. Jones, "The Known World" |
Bleekindigo
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 212
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 02:01 pm: |
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Chris,
Did they say exactly why it is that a literary book by a black male author is so hard to sell?
Bleek- |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 997
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 05:48 pm: |
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Bleek:
Maybe. All I got is the quote. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1968
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 07:31 pm: |
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Hey, Bleek. I was wondering the same thing. So I can only guess that the reason for this agent's statement may have something to do with the notion that unless a "literary" book written by a black male appeals to both black and white readers, it won't sell. And, presumably, the reasoning for that line of thinking is that the majority of black readers are only interested in buying hip-hop and sista girl books and that, since implicit in a lot of black male "literature" is an indictment of the effects of racism, the majority of whites won't buy certain types of black literature either. So unless a black male author writes about something that has universal appeal, his literary efforts may go begging. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1969
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 08:21 pm: |
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I might add that is has been pretty much been conceded as to why Edward Jones' book gained such favor with the white literati; because he didn't really play the race card that much but rather told a story of flawed humans. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Bleek and Cynique:
Hey--that' rhymes. Bleek told Cynique, Cynique told Bleek, Every week, We're more Unique!
Oh I am SOOOOO clever!
But I digress--
Maybe Marie Brown or somebody from her office or a client can chime in here... |
Yvettep
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
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Yes, I'd like more context for that assertion. One of my favorite recent authors is an African American male, and appears to have "sold" to at least some degree: Brian Keith Jackson, "The Queen of Harlem," "The View From Here." I don't know if CHristopher John Farley has written any fiction lately, but I enjoyed "My Favorite War." |
Yvettep
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
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(Hmmm...maybe the key is using three names!) |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 03:48 pm: |
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From another board:
=======================
Hello all,
I've basically have been a lurker on this board for the last couple
of months now, but I am delurking due to this discussion on Black
Male Writers being a hard push in the literary industry.
First let me say this is an entirely bias opinion. I worked for the
illustrious Marie Brown for eighteen months and was always inspired
by the way she relentlessly pushed African American authors to
editors in NYC. Marie Brown is an agent, literary god-mother and true
warrior in publishing today. Without her sweat and tears many of the
black male authors that are regularly published today, Colin Channer,
Carl Weber, Randall Robinson, Minister Faust (Space Age Bachelor
Pad), and the prolific Herb Boyd would get lost in the street-lit,
ghetto life fiction craze that these publishers are so hungry for
today.
Marie pours her heart, soul and bank account into all of her writers
and supports them with her over thirty years of experience. I watched
as she tirelessly met with editor after editor to push unknown black
male/female writers, who were superb at their craft, only to be meet
with roadblock after roadblock, but still she never gives up. This is
a woman who after two and a half years finally sold a novel by one of
clients, a first time black male novelist. When I asked her why she
stuck with it all that time she said, "Because he's good. I believe
in his writing and I knew that someone would wake up and see it how
good it is." How is that for dedication? This is not a
person "attempting to cause black men to not want to push forward. By
all means she is one of the nicest, sweetest people you will ever
met. She speaks the truth as she knows it, and her legacy speaks for
itself. So before you question her statement make sure that you know
all of your facts up front.
The question is: Are black males the hardest to publish? In my
experience in working with Marie. Sadly yes they are, and I will tell
you why. There are only seven super powerful black editors in NYC
publishing (mostly women and one male) and these editors are focused
on street lit, light comedy, entertainment oriented stuff and
relationship fiction. If you are writing serious literary fiction, I
think that's excellent but be prepared to wait. And be prepared to
market yourself heavily before you even get a publishing deal. Build
up your readership or community. Get a blog, or write some articles
and get them published. Build your platform. This goes for all
writers actually. Everything today needs a gimmick. Editors are
looking for a gimmick and for them (sadly) it's all about the bottom
line. Yes, there are black males out there writing serious literature
and getting published, but it is difficult. I saw first hand every
day editors turning down beautifully written manuscripts because this
or that writer doesn't have enough of a platform or hasn't won
awards, any excuse to turn the literary agent down. They would rather
publish Snoop Doggy Dogs Memoirs than a serious writer.
Here is what I say, if you think you can do better than a Marie
Brown, or any other dedicated established black agent in the trenches
fighting for little know black writers, then do it. Get out there and
do the work. It isn't about going to meetings and having lunches.
It's about reading manuscripts, mailing them out, building
relationship with these editors who would rather be lunching Beyonce,
and then waking up at 5am and doing it all over again for nothing
except your love of black writers and black people. Then and only
then will you see tireless effort that black literary agents like
Marie (there really aren't any like her) have to go through to get
the work of good black male and black female writers published.
Believe me, it's easier said then done.
And that is my two cents.
T.Thompson
writer/journalist/catalyst
blkgirlwriting@y...
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Yvettep
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 04:15 pm: |
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Thanks for sharing this, Chris. (I'm following you it seems!) I remember some debate after the success of Alice Walker and other Black females some Black male authors saying they had a hard time being heard. I'm totally ignorant: How does one become a literary agent? Sounds like we should be doing as much to nurture African Americans trying to break through the ranks of agents, editors, etc as we should to nurture Black writers. And as a former teacher I'll make my constant mantra: We also can't forget about creating and nurturing voracious young Black readers. |
Yvettep
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 04:19 pm: |
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PS-Sounds like an interesting discussion on the board where you quoted this from. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 18, 2005 - 05:10 pm: |
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Yvettep:
I think one just declares oneself one. Though there are laws and rules and fair practices and apparently there is a society of literary agents there is no licensing procedure. I would think one should have some sort of relationship with editors at publishing houses to sell to one's clients, though. |
Mahoganyanais
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 81
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 08:35 pm: |
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Yvettep:
I liked "My Favorite War" too. And when you mentioned it, I was reminded of Paul Beatty's "White Boy Shuffle." |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 352
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 08:39 pm: |
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Hello All,
I have to disagree with the WHYs literary novels written by black men are the hardest to sell. Sure, a part of the explanation could be sales. But lets be real here for a minute, the Bestsellers list is jam packed with a bunch of unknown white authors either. My point being, the publishing company lose a lot more money on books written by their white authors a lot more than their few black authors. Don't believe me...go to any Barnes and Noble, Doubleday, or Waldenbooks stores look at the books in their clearance bins and tell me what color the authors are? *eyebrow raised*
So, its not money, or sales, because publishing companies publish more titles that DON'T sell than publish titles that do sell. There could be something to the fact that since the black reading audience is predominantly female, that many black women just aren't interested in reading books that are written from a male character or male author perspective. I can buy that...to a certain extent.
Here's the point where I want everyone to wake up and hear me clearly, the main reason that they will not publish black male, or hell even black female writers who write literature is racism, pure and simple. Many in the upper echelon of publishing, academia, etc. still believe that there are no black authors who can write LITERATURE--including Toni Morrison. We haven't gotten to that stage yet, they say. And with the popularity of the sista girlfriend and thug books, these racists now have the perfect example to illustrate the validity of their prejudices. |
Yvettep
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 08:48 am: |
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A while back, I wrote a post about Etheridge Knight and wondered where the "next" poetic genius in the African American community would come from. I suggested that since there were more Blacks (male, but probably female, too) in prisons than in University creative writing programs, that's where he (or she) would come from. I was talking about poets, but the same might apply to literary novelists.
Not that people can not become great "literary" writers without a college degree (or undergrad plus MFA), but that is definitely one tried and true route. Look at our numbers, period, in any college degree program, and then look at the numbers who may have wanted to major in writing but instead chose something far more "practical"...
When I was at Purdue, I was a member of the Haraka writers through the Black Cultural Center there. That was--and continues to be--a wonderful nurturing ground for African American (and other) students who want to write but need to major in something else.
Does anyone know of other programs at other colleges/universities?
There is also a wonderful writing/performing tradition in some military units. If I can find a recent NPR segment on this, I'll link to it. (There seem to be many Blacks involved in these efforts.)
I guess my point--a long time in coming!--is that we have to continue to go where the "students" are and find ways to nurture them. I do agree with you, Thumper, about the impact of racism. But that's not going to change any time soon. There may be alternate ways to get work out there. (At least I hope so.) But we've got to birth and nurture the writers. (That's what I love so much about this board!) |
Yvettep
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 08:53 am: |
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Here is that NPR story: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4464467
Also, I realize that the thread was about literary novels being sold, and not how to get them to be written, so my comments above were off-topic... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1974
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 02:56 pm: |
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Of course, racism is a fact of life. But you'd better believe that if a black male author penned a literary effort that had the potential to earn money or garner prestiege for a publishing house, it would stand a better chance of getting published. I'm sure both of these factors contributed to Edward Jones' "The Known World" making it into print. That and the fact that it exposed another facet of slavery, one that incriminated blacks, themselves; subject matter is important when it comes to this issue and "protest" novels that slam white America probably don't have a good chance of making the cut. So one way for black males to circumvent white racism in the publishing world is to choose an "acceptable" subject to show case your "literary" talents. And - of course, make sure you have some "literary" talents. LOL |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 357
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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Hello All,
My first instinct was to unload on Cynique, but I can't, some of what she say is true, not not everything she say is true. I don't believe publishing houses would publish a literary novel for the prestige. I believe The Known World is more an anomaly than a standard. Cynique what is an "acceptable" subject? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 01:21 pm: |
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Any book that generates visions of a Pulitzer or a Nobel or any other literary prize becomes more attractive because winning such an award is a feather in the cap of its publisher. So the acquisition of prestiege does play a role in the publication of a book because gaining prestiege is a trade-off for a book that might not be a best-seller. As previously said, I would say that an example of unacceptable books are those that are of the "protest" calibre, which is to say they are written by subjective, black males seething with anger and resentment towards racism. That POV is played out. The publishing industry has been there, done that. To me, an "acceptable" book is first and foremost one that is well-written, not one that is bogged down with pretentious, "purple prose," or self-indulgent redundancy. It is also one that will stand the test of time and will be just as compelling in a hundred years as it was the day it was first published. I do admit that when it comes to black male writers, more strigent standards are probably applied to their works. And that's where the element of racism figures in because there is this built-in handicap of a black male having to "prove" himself. These are just some personal obsevations. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 360
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 05:32 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: WAKE UP! WAKE UP!!! The publishing industry is just that an industry. It all boils down to MONEY and philosphy. How can I tell...by the types of books that they are throwing out at us. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1980
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
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Thumper, we were originally talking about why agents won't take on a "literary" book written by a black male. You said that this was because of racism. I said that money and prestiege and racism all figure into the equation. Everything I said in my last post referred to the "literary" genre of books, not works of the hip-hop or street genre, which are obviously considered "cash cows" by the publishing industry. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 362
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 06:00 am: |
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Hello All:
Cynique: Your slip is showing. My post was directed at why the publishing companies are not BUYING literary novels written by black male authors.
I know what you're posts were referring to and that was what I addressed. Maybe you need to start drinking some Folgers coffee are something so you can wake up and stay awake. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1983
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 10:39 am: |
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Gimme a break, Thumper. How obvious can it be that the reason an agent won't take on a literary book written by a black male is because. publishing companies won't buy it. How can you separate the two???? This is a cause-and-effect situation. You need to stop drinking coffee because it's got you hyper to the point of being illogical. LOL. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 460
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 06:53 pm: |
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Hello
Both of y'all should start listening BEFORE ya breakout your comeback. Thumper, turn down your contrast a little, you know you getting old and your eyes ain't the same *smile*. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 363
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 09:15 pm: |
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Hello All,
Well Carey you're right.
Cynique, what book did you say you were reading? *eyebrow raised* |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1989
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 12:06 am: |
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I ain't readin nothin right now. Chris Hyaden's book is calling me and I'm trying to get in a vampire mode. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 05:31 pm: |
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Cynique:
You need not only get into a Vampyre mode to read the book--you can get into a Dolemite mode (say "Petey Wheatstraw, the Devil's Son-in-law" mode) |
Plewis
Newbie Poster
Username: Plewis
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 06:58 pm: |
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My own literary novel is coming out this July(NATE). It's a literary page-turner, like an African-American JOURNEY TO THE END OF THE NIGHT. I will be my own agent and peddle the damn thing myself wherever and whenever I can. |
Parsona
Newbie Poster
Username: Parsona
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 03:27 am: |
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So I ask, what then is literature? Street fiction? African American lore? Who makes the decision as to what is really what? White America?
I believe we have short-changed ourselves by believing the lies that the pimp/playa/hustler thing is what sells. Sure white folks tout that to keep us away from brotha's like Reid who tackled the subject of domestic violence against a man in his new book, STEVEN.
Now THAT'S literature. I dare any of the so-called experts to read it and classify it as just general Black fiction. First of all, such a book hasn't even ever been written before by an African American male. Ever.
I've done the research. |
Deebaby
Newbie Poster
Username: Deebaby
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 04:12 pm: |
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R-A-C-I-S-M
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