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Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 09, 2003 - 09:44 pm: | 
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Any thoughts on this?
FROM CNN.COM
New 'Potter' to sell for record price
Friday, February 7, 2003 Posted: 11:12 AM EST (1612 GMT)
NEW YORK (AP) -- The new "Harry Potter" book, still five months from publication, has apparently already set a record: The highest priced new children's novel in history.
Scholastic Children's Books, the U.S. publisher of J.K. Rowling's "Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix," announced Thursday a suggested retail price of $29.99.
"That's definitely the highest price for a children's novel we've ever seen," said Diane Mangan, director of children's merchandising at the superstore chain Borders Group Inc.
"That does seem to be the highest," said Carolyn Brown, a spokeswoman for Barnes & Noble.
The previous Potter book, "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire," was published in 2000 with a suggested price of $25.95. Most children's stories cost far less. A popular novel from last fall, Cornelia Funke's "The Thief Lord," had a list price of $16.95.
A spokeswoman for Scholastic, Judy Corman, acknowledged that some customers may object to the price, but cited increased production costs and the new book's anticipated length, well over 700 pages.
"Clearly, the cost has gone up for printing, paper, etc.,"' she said. "We're hoping people can afford it, but this is a very big book, a third larger than the last Potter book, and we have to be realistic."
Few will actually pay $29.99 because stores offer significant discounts. Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble, which had been selling the book for $17.97, will now charge $17.99.
"We had been making an educated guess about how much the list price would be," said Amazon.com spokeswoman Kristin Schaefer. Customers who already ordered the book from Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble will still pay $17.97.
Rowling's four previous Potter novels have worldwide sales of more than 190 million. Within hours of last month's announcement that "Order of the Phoenix" was coming out June 21, the book topped the bestseller lists of Amazon.com and Barnes & Noble.com and remained in those spots as of Thursday.
But popular books such as "Order of the Phoenix" present a problem for independent stores, which often can't afford such discounts. Margaret Maupin, a buyer for the Tattered Cover in Denver, said her store compensates in other ways.
"We offer better service and everything we make we give back to the community. We are part of the community and that is not the case for stores with a national presence," said Maupin, who added that she has received a "significant" number of orders for the new Potter book.
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Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 03:54 am: |
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My thoughts? Yes there is greed...they do it because they can. I like the Harry Potter books, but this is a crazy price for a book!! I'll wait until some of the "publicity" dies down and buy a copy off of somewhere like half.com.
:::shaking head and thinking of how many books I can buy for $30::::
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Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:21 am: |
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Yep--they got a hot product and they know they can get it and will(not from me, though) --probably won't hurt sales one bit.
The book bidness is after all a bidness just like any other. |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 02:06 pm: |
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Hi All,
Sis E here. Let me step in here as a children's book author (a poverty-stricken one, I must add)and say a few words. Would anyone question buying a book for adults at that price? Or does the fact that it's a "children's book" make a difference? It's almost 700 pages long, which to me is too long for any book, but that's just my opinion on that. Almost as many adults as children buy Harry Potter books, and they can well afford it.
The popularity and promotion of Potter books have been good for children's books in general and brought attention to children's books. Which is one reason why so many celebrities are writing children's books these days, too. That Rowling's books kept hitting number one on the NY Times best seller list is the reason why the Times had to separate it from the "adult" books, which were so used to being at the top.I say go for it, J.K. It's a matter of supply and demand. Just my "two cents" worth (no pun intended).
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akaivyleaf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 03:18 pm: |
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My thoughts? Its important to know that I'm frugal. Many of us have great book habits, buy them, read them, collect them, preserve them on our bookshelves but not I. I am frugal I tell you, and I send my librarians around the state finding my books. If I buy a book it has to be great. Saying that, of course means that I wouldn't spend 30 bux on a book, children or no. I do however understand the cost of HP books, since they are so firecely popular among children and adults, why not capitalize on it all. They just won't be getting my 30 bux.
The most expensive book I've purchased recently has been my bible. My old bible that I had for 20+ years was literally in tatters so I splurged and replaced it with a 70 bux leather bound edition. I figure it will be good for another 20 years which breaks down to a yearly cost of 3.50 a year.
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 11, 2003 - 02:50 pm: |
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An equally and perhaps more valid question how many children's books are 700 pages. I would image none. It makes sense books with more pages csot more to make therefore the longest book should cost more. But of course this should e related to the actual cost of producing the book.
$29 dollars is a lot of money to pay for 700 sheets of paper bound by some cardboard. Clearly the most important question is how much more (if it is more) money will the publisher, distributor, bookseller, and author get in return for selling this book. One can agrue they all deserve to make more. The proof will be evident based upon the sales.
Descibing this as greed might be an exaggeration. Greed would be pricing the book at say $99 and taking a chance that sales would be high enough to make as much money as you would have made had the book be priced more reasonably at a more reasonable price.
Besides, Scholastic can make extra money selling this book they can afford to take a risk on a book that might loose money, but be more valuable in terms of content, or culture.
I bet they could charge $39, maybe even $49 for the book and make more money than at the $29 price ever if they sell fewer copies.
Generating a market environment where people are will to read, and buy a 700 page book will do more to benefit the book business than hurt it.
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Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 12:07 am: |
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No, this is greed in its purest form. If a publisher printed let’s say 5,000 copies of a hard back that was 350 pages, it would cost them between $2-$3. Of course the more books you print, the better your discount from the book printer. What kinda discount you think the Potter book is getting at over 1,000,000,000 copies? HUGE!!!! I’d wager they are printing that book for less than $4 each.
$30 X 40% standard bookstore discount = They’re making $18 bucks per book. You don’t think it’s greed. In six months that same book will be in remainder stores selling for $6 or less.
Notice that the book is not available in E-book which would completely negate the paper manufacturing cost. Making the book sell for about $10 or less. It’s greed, and it’s the way of capitalists. No more no less.
What we are paying for is an illustrator and a bloated ad campaign . Knowin’ good and well HP don’t need and ad campaign.
Let me say it one more time. It’s greed.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 07:20 am: |
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Hello Brian,
Actually, I'm with Troy on this one. I don't mind paying $29.99 for 700+ page book. That's a lot of book. What should be pissing you off is the fact that we have to pay $25 for a 200+ page book. Now, who's getting the more bang for the book. Second, who said that you have to buy the book for that price. There's all these outlets that will sell that book to you for less than that. And not everyone that buys the book will keep it. I bet not a week will go by after its release before used copies start popping up all over the place. If you're one of those people who feel funny about owning used stuff, simply wait for that sucka to go to paperback when the price will be cut in half. So, me, I ain't stressing it. Actually, I think J.K. Rowlings would be a damn fool if she didn't get as much for the book as she could. And besides, I bet Sam's won't be selling that sucka for $30. And since I have to get two copies of that bad boy, guess where I'm going to be? Besides, as I've been told over and over again, business is business. There's always somebody that who wants your money. The trick is for you to find more ways to keep as much of it as you can. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 07:45 am: |
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Hello All,
Yep, I'm back so soon. I knew there was a deal to be had on this bad boy somewheres, then along comes Amazon.com. If you can pre-order the new HP at 40% off, bringing the price to $17.99. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0493935806X/aalbccom-20
Sounds like the ticket to me. What say you Brian?
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 07:46 am: |
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Hello All,
OK, ignore the bad link. But I'm sure you get my drift. |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 07:07 pm: |
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Hi Thumper,Brian, Troy, and all,
And I have to also think about the author. Why not let her make as much money as she can for her creativity and her hard work? 700 pages ain't no easy piece of work to pump out, so she deserves whatever she can get.
Plus, it's been said that children will not read long books. The Potter series shows this is not true. They will read Rowling's long books, they will read Christopher Paul Curtis' long books, they will read Mildred Taylor's long books -- and her last one, the Land, was pretty hefty, too -- the Redwall long books and others.
Of course we all recognize that these authors aren't making the money that Rowling will, but at least there's still hope for the rest of us. I'm also practical enough to realize that my books will never make the kind of sales that Rowling does, but again, at least there's hope.
Picture books -- 28 pages and often less than 500 words -- sell for $20 and more these days. The illustrator gets as much as the author, or more. Children's book authors too many times are considered to be second-class citizens because our work isn't looked upon as "important" as adult books are in many circles. I know from experience about that from the many children's literature conferences that I have attended and participated in.
So if Scholastic can make a bundle off children's books, that's all right by me. That gives them more opportunity to buy more manuscripts by other children's book writers. Children's book publishers and children's book departments in publishing have hit the skids in these woebegone times because they can't make ends meet and when publishers have to cut back, more than once it's been in the children's book department.
Sis E |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 10:45 am: |
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Good points you bring out Sis E...thanks! However, I still say I'll wait until I can get it cheaper. It's not that it's a children's book (since I have all the previous ones), it's just that that's a whole lot of money for me to shell out for one book, unless it's one that I just have to have. I like the HP series, but not THAT much!
On another note, I also have an issue with how much the children books themselves cost. I will buy a few full price because I want them for Joy, but it sure is hard on a sista to pay $17 for a book that doesn't even have 50 pages.
:::sighing:::
-Tee |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 09:35 pm: |
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To follow up on Thumper's and Tee C's points; hardback book are indeed expensive - Rowling's book is a relative bargin.
Take "Please, Baby, Please" by Spike Lee & Tonya Lewis Lee that book is $17 list with sales tax we are talking about darn near 20 - for a book with only 32 pages, and appropriate for a preschooler.
I paid full price for the book, in a brick and mortar bookstore, to get it signed by Spike and Tonya. Now I have to admit I was taken aback when I was told by the cashier how much the book cost. But I justified it to myself saying I was supporting the store and the authors, and getting a book signed by Spike Lee that might be worth something to my great grand children. But by any measure that is a lot of money for a book for a 4 year old.
If Rowling book price is greed, then 20 bucks for "Please baby" is sheer avarice on the part of the publisher.
I reccomended the book in an AALBC.com newsletter because it is indeed wonderfully illustrated AND people could by it via Amazon for 30% off. (It was also an attempt to indirectly point out the fact you now have all these celebrities getting children's books published - but that is another discussion altogether.)
Brian, would you say Spike Lee's publisher is greedy? If you are consistent you would have to say "yes". But that is because you are equating capitalism with greed. Using this definition virtually all publishers would be greedy.
In actuality, greed forces people and corporations to make decisions which don't make good business sense. Naw, Scholastic is not exhibiting signs of greed -- at least not yet.
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Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 08:53 am: |
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Sis Tee, Bro. Troy and all,
I appreciate that you see the connection between those high priced picture books and your pocketbook, too. Remember when "paperbacks" were "cheap"? And now look at the cost.
So prices on almost all books can put a crimp in your pocketbook these days. Yet these prices are reflective of the way that almost all prices on almost all merchandize have increased in the last couple of years.
Don't get me started, but I can remember when you could buy a first class stamp for ten cents and the letter got to its destination. Now it costs 37 cents and you got to cross your fingers each time you put the letter in the mailbox and hope it gets where it's suposed to.
About children's books -- hopefully young readers will gain a passion and a love for reading, regardless of the price of the book. Young readers with that strong foundation will become adult readers, and that's what we want, isn't it?
By the way, you can buy my books via AALBC.
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Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 02:01 pm: |
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LOL Sis E, I think I have all your books now except one...and yep, I bought them full price via Amazon because I "knew" you...well, correction. Mr. Royal bought them! <wink>
And Troy, Please Baby Please is BEAUTIFUL, and yep, this is one I HAD to have. So, Mr. Royal bought that one too. Ahahha. Such a good Daddy! And Joy (11 months old) loves to look at it...
I still say it's greed though and that they do it because they can. However now, I will say that I didn't really "think" before...I considered the author, but I naively left out the consideration of paying the illustrator.
I'll still buy Joy one-two books a month, but once they go over $10, I have a really, really hard time doing so...especially when I'm buying them.
-Tee |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
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Sis Tee Royal,
Thank you for buying my books. That helps to put the food on the table, and the fourth leg onto the table, cuz it's bad luck to eat off a three-legged table, you know.
And please keep buying those books, even though they do cost. I happened to find a discount book store in my area called the book market, and the prices are up to thirty and forty per cent off. So some of the picture books that I do buy cost me under $10 when they started out closer to $15-16.
Keep thinking about us poverty-stricken authors who sit shivering in these cold rooms in our tattered overcoats and terrible colds, trying to pound out wonderful stories on our dilapidated computers that crash every other paragraph. Thank ya kindly; we need that 5 and 10 cents per book royalty (for some of us; for others it's a bit more). :-)
Sis E |
Tee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 06:20 pm: |
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Thumper the link you wanted is below and yep, it is 40% off. I'm still waiting though...LOL. It is the number one book on Amazon.com right now.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/043935806X/aalbccom-20
-Tee |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 17, 2003 - 06:22 pm: |
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Sis E...is it really that bad? Seriously. If so, and this is probably another thread, why not just self-publish?
Or does your advance offset this incredibly low royalty amount.
-Tee |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 09:23 am: |
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Hi Sis Tee C,
No, the royalty amount per HARDCOVER book is more than that, but the royalty amount per paperback book is pretty much like I said, for me. The biggest markets traditionally have been school and libraries for children's books, and their budgets have been drying up. So now the "bigger" markets are the bookstores themselves, and the chains pretty much control whose books get on the shelves. It's a harder field than a lot of folks realize.
Self-publishing for me is not where I want to go at this time; if I did, it wouldn't be in the children's literature field. I'd write an adult book with sex scenes in every chapter. Yeah, baby!
With all due respect to those folks who are successful in self-publishing, I really don't want to have to spend the money, time and effort that it would take for national distribution and marketing via self-publishing. I bust my you-know-what promoting my books that are published by publishing companies already. Authors cannot NOT promote their work, no matter what the publishers do, you know?
I've been in pr for over twenty years and also had a successful little pr company for about ten years, so I understand how much time and effort are required to be successful just in promoting a one-time event. Have mercy!
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Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 18, 2003 - 02:29 pm: |
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Great comments everyone! Wonderful dialogue!
Let’s take some different perspectives, here shall we?
ROWLING’S EARNINGS:
Are you actually trying to tell me that J.K. Rowlings, who’s earnings are approaching the Billions(according to CNN.com) can tell the difference between advances and royalties from a book at $25 vs. $30? When was the last time you think she saw a check from her publisher? Her accountant calls her and lets her know how rich she is from month to month.
Are you really trying to convince me that someone who’s making close to a billion dollars without putting up their own capital and has negligible business expenses and has money coming in from film rights and merchandising rights,is concerned about squeezing every dollar they can out of a book?
DISCOUNT:
Thumper you’re absolutely right. Almost no major bookseller will sell the item for full price, as indicated in the CNN article. But I have to ask you, Thumper-- Do you think that Donna over at X-Pressions will sell that book for $17.99 and will you proudly walk in and say “Donna, I’m going to Sam’s to buy some books. Smooches to you and yours.” Maybe you will. I’m just asking. Now, don’t get me lyin’ and say I get all my books from Black bookstores. So I’m not exempt from this example either.
I think you are overlooking the ripple affect of bookselling economics. Wal-Mart, Media Play, Amazon, K-Mart, Barnes & Nobles will offer deep discounts on books and not worry about the profit margin on every single title. They are more concerned with generating massive amounts of revenue from ALL the titles and other items they sell. Wal-Mart takes a loss on almost every book, yet they thrive because while you’re buying a book, chances are you’re going to purchase another item from which they're getting a HUGE profit margin. Amazon is doing the same thing. Look at their menu bar and check out all of the other items they offer.
What does his mean to us? Perhaps the better question is what does this mean to small Black bookstores who can’t offer better than a 10% discount. Bookstores like the one Troy paid full price for the Spike book. It means doom. Oh, you don’t think Black kids are reading Harry Potter? You don’t think Black bookstores could pay their rent by stocking Harry Potter ? You don’t think their parents are gonna get the cheapest copy they can find? We should ask Clara Villarosa how much she’s selling Harry Potter for.
TROY’S ARGUMENT FOR SPIKE’S BOOK
Troy, this is a basic issue of manufacturing costs. Children’s books are more expensive to produce because:
1. They are full color throughout as opposed to a novel printed in black ink
2. The majority of them are hard back, like Spike’s book.
3. Many of them are non-standard sizes, like Spike’s book.
4. There is a two party compensation by the publisher. The illustrator has to be paid and the writer has to be paid.
4. They are printed on high-gloss paper.
Therefore if we compare the two:
Novel: one color ink
Children’s Book: four color ink
Novel: One party
Children’s Books: Two parities
Novel: Boiler plate sizes 5.5. x 8.5, 6 x 9, 4 x 7
Children’s Books Non Standard sizes
From the above listed data, it is clear that the manufacturing costs attribute to what seems like inflated pricing for children’s books. So, Troy, I have to say that no Spike’s publisher is not greedy. They would be if they’d charged $25 for his book when Doug E. Fresh’s kids book lists for $13.95 and Will Smith’s book lists for $16.95 and Nappy Hair list for $17.00 and White Socks lists for $14.95.
On the other hand, during a dreary economy, high unemployment rates, pricing a book above the standard price speaks to the exploitation of supply and demand which ultimately translates to greed.
Successful business is predicated on making a profitable return for services rendered or products sold. After that, the question becomes how much is enough? Sort of like...Enron or Worldcomm.
I suppose more than anything else, this is a personal issue. You have to ask yourselves, if you had written Harry Potter, and you could make a good profit at $25, would you hike the price up to $30? My answer would be no. But I don’t count, of course, because if I had J.K.’s money I’d be giving away books in the Projects with Thumper at my side going, “Fool, is you crazy?”
By the way, I noticed no one had any remarks about my e-book issues. An e-book would have cut the manufacturing costs in half giving consumers a cheaper product. Hmmmm
Written With Warmth,
Brian Egeston
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Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 07:14 am: |
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Hi Brian,
My goodness, I'm glad you got that settled.:-) |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 08:06 am: |
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Hello Brian,
How are you doing? I apologize to all of you who hates long posts, but Brian took it there, and I'm all packed, got my ticket and everything ready to go there with him. *smile*
Brian, first off, I'm trying to make a little money too. Hence, the link that I tried to put up, and Tee successfully did put up (thanks Tee, nuthin but luv 4 ya) so that AALBC.com can get our little money. Because believe it or not, running a website, this size, ain't cheap and damn sho ain't free.
We are aware that this puts us in competition of sorts with Black Bookstores, but here is where your logic is incorrect. I have always, from the very beginning, encourage patronizing black bookstores. I love X-pressions in Indianapolis. I don't get there often enough. Miss Donna can get me any book I'm looking for. If its in print, or not, she can just about get it for me. I was buying John O. Killens books from her when Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble said those books were out of print and there was nothing they could for me. And Donna will tell you that she can order any book, despite the race of the author. So if I wanted to go and buy Harry Potter, she can get me a copy. But money talks and I like my money. I like to keep it around me for as long as I can. And with the money I save from my 40% discount, I can now go to X-pressions and buy two books instead of one. There's plenty of room here for everyone. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Although that old church song go, "Lord don't move that mountain, just give me the strength to climb it." Well, I don't mind having the strength, I want to the Lord to give the intelligence and wisdom to walk my strong butt around that sucka instead.
But Brian, answer me this, if you feel so strongly about showing black solidarity, does this mean that your books will only be sold in black bookstores and NO other outlet? *eyebrow raised* So from here on out, we won't see any of your books on Amazon.com or B&N.com, right? *eyebrow still raised*
Second off, you're assuming that there is a black bookstore in every city or town, which is not the case. For many, the internet is a good friend. Now, what do you propose these people do. Or how about the ones that can get around and love the "at the door" service you can get.
Brian, I wouldn't think that you were crazy for giving away books to children. I would say that if you did that not to give away only Harry Potter books but a wide variety of children books. But, hey, don't let wishes and your wallet hold you back, go on a give a mess load of HP books away. I'm sure you'll make plenty of children happy. |
akaivyleaf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
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Thumper and Brian,
I have to investigate this X-pressions bookstore, even though I'm not in Indianapolis, if she is willing to order books not by Black authors. Here in Atlanta, I'm much more prone to give my money to black businesses, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I want to buy just "black" products. I read period. I'm on an almost exclusive tangent now of reading black literature, but I've not closed the door on other literary works so yes I go to Amazon on occasion, or Borders bookstore (the physical location) to buy a book that I know I can't get at my black bookseller.
Harry Potter is a good example of this... I've read all the other books, I wouldn't mind reading this and if I was so inclined to buy it, I know for a fact I can't go to my local AA bookseller and find it or expect them to order it for me.
I know the point of this discussion was to talk about its unusually high price, but the wrinkle about profit margin for both the bookseller and the author is merited in conversation. I wouldn't expect my local bookseller to be able to complete with the online market. However I can expect my local bookseller to make strides to become Internet active and in some ways, even expand their line which could make them more profitable right? |
Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 19, 2003 - 09:43 pm: |
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Thumper,
My friend, my buddy, my road dog. Let me punch your ticket, unpack your bags and tell you,
That's not the issue we're discussing. As much as I absolutely LOVE getting into it with you, I'm gonna have to ask you to stick to 'Greed in Publishing Industry.'
I'd love nothing more than to take this onto another tangent, but I'm busy trying to put the finishing touches on a "standard-priced" novel for you to rip to shreds by Spring.
By the way, so you are or are not getting your Potter Books from Donna? *grinning*
Written With Warmth
Brian Egeston |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 10:50 am: |
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Brian/Thumper...ROFL...why must y'all always go at each other? Or is my perception off?
-Tee |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 05:23 pm: |
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Hello All,
Tee: I disagree with your perception. Why, Brian loves me more than he does color TV. I'm the cherry on the cake of his day, the sunshine of his springtime...let's face it and call it what it is... I'm just a big ol' ball of happiness and joy for him. Tell her Brian. *LOL*
Brian: Now Brian, you brought up the black bookstores. I was just keeping you company, seeing as how you went there...all by yourself. But I'll chill on it. Allow me to answer your last parting question with one of my on...I won't be seeing your new book on Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble will I? *eyebrow raised* *big ol' smile*
Akaivyleaf: I agree with you. Brian, hit the nail on the head earlier when he stated that Wal-Mart and the other chain stores will take a loss on their books, just to get the people in their stores to buy other items where the profit margin is larger. If our black bookstores could be internet active, as you stated, yet offer something else to us the consumer that will satisfy our consciousness (sp) AND our wallets we would be in like Flynn. But, I don't have the magic combination that will achieve this goal. The second someone discovers it, it's going to be on and they will be rich. |
Tee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 07:11 pm: |
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Mmmkay...got'cha Thumper.
-T |
Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 20, 2003 - 07:15 pm: |
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It's Thursday. So that means I'm wearing my pink and purple "I LOVE THUMPER" t-shirt. On Fridays I wear my polyester one.
Thumper*gripping my keyboard* Don't try to get me off topic. I won't do it, I won't do it.
IIII'm gooonnaa staay on the battlefieeld, till III diiiiiiee.
Written With Warmth,
Brian Egeston
Preisdent and only memeber (despite constant recruiting) of the Thumper Fan Club |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 01:51 am: |
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Brian: I see your point, but you may be missing mine. I’ll attempt to clarify.
You are effectively complaining about publishers (Scholastic in particular) for charging what you perceive to be an excessive markup for their books.
Your analysis assumes that there is a direct and consistent correlation between the cost to manufacture a product and the price at which it retails. You’ve overlooked the something called demand: As the number of people who want a product increases so does it’s price. The trick is to set the price such that you maximize your profits. In other words you want to set the price such that the number of people who buy the book times the price yields the maximum revenue.
Lets say, for argument sake, that a book cost 5 dollars to make and I print 10,000 copies.
(A)
I price the book at $10 and sell out; I net $50,000.
(B)
I decide to sell the book at $15 and 10% of the people who would have paid $10 refuse to pay the $15. As a result I only sell 9,000 copies however I’ve netted $85,000 or $35,000 more.
From a business perspective (B) is the more logical choice. You could even donate the excess books to a school, realize a tax benefit and look like a great humanitarian all while making more money.
I would define “greed” as ignoring all pricing models, purchasing trends, historical demands and pricing the book at say $25 and reducing the customer to a point where your revenues are less than option (A) or (B) above, or God forbid reducing demand to the point where to don’t recover your expense to produce the books. Using this logic Scholastic is not being greedy.
We all know perceived value is more important than actual value.
Examples abound all around us. In NYC cigarettes are now over 7 bucks a pack, due to a huge tax increase, sure some people quit but net tax revenues increased, because demand remained sufficently. Everyone know the original Air Jordans which cost $100 buy only cost $5 to manufacture. Look at the price of CD’s which cost a faction of whats an LP costs to manufacture, but the prices have not gone down commensurately; for DVD’s versus VHS tape the comparison is even worse.
Sure one can argue that it is just plain wrong to charge people $30 for a kid’s book. However, as long as there are enough people willing pay the price you won’t see the price go down – even if that means some people can’t afford it (we already know some people who can’t afford it will buy the book anyway).
I guess it just goes to show how lucky we are with the time to read and the money to pay a premium for the privilege.
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Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 22, 2003 - 01:22 pm: |
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Troy,
Very nicely done! What a strong rebuttal. Unemotional, factual, well done. A visionary and a strategic debater, I am truly impressed.
Might I offer this response to your issues?
I must disagree with your opening statement regarding manufacturing costs relating to the retail price of a product.
If we look at the price of manufactured electronics such as cell phones. The country has seen a significant price drop in these items over the past ten years. Those savings, in my assumption can be directly related to the decrease in manufacturing costs. Each year companies strive for lower costs and manufacturing is usually the top item to cut.
When I was a process engineer for Motorola( and I know I shouldn’t use first hand accounts during arguments) each year we had a huge banquet to celebrate how many millions of dollars we’d saved that year by cutting manufacturing costs.
Made in China and Made in Mexico labels are placed on products because overseas manufacturing lowers the retail product costs and allows companies to remain competitive. Therefore illustrating that manufacturing does directly affect the retail cost of a product.
About your other statement, demand for a product increasing its cost, I have to once again strongly disagree with that as well. Reason being, If we look at the two most popular items in America, cell phones and computers. One would have to agree that those are high demand products. One could also chart the pricing trends of those products over time and see that the price of both cell phones and computers has seen a severe downward trend. Phones and computers are getting cheaper despite the fact that the demand is growing. We can take the cell phone further and look at the service plan cost. The service plans are getting cheaper even though the demand is growing. And this is a global product. 30% of the world’s population has accesses to phone service which makes the argument that a telephone may be the number one consumer product in demand.
Perhaps you have termed it correctly... “The TRICK is to price your product.” It is indeed a trick, a greedy one at that. One that cigarette makers have taken advantage of. You must admit that it is a bit inhumane to increase the price of something to which people are addicted to such as cigarettes. Isn't that what crack-dealers do?
And in your brilliant mathematical model(kudos on that) you forgot to mention that both examples return a profit and both examples could yield donations to schools be it tangible product or monetary funding.
Thus being the case, I must return the original stance, How much is enough? Isn’t that the question Enron never asked?
Lastly, I must shamelessly revert to another first hand account. As an independent publisher I try to price my product at a rate which will--based on manufacturing cost--insure a profit on every book sold at the highest distributor’s discount (60% by a New York distributor who shall remain nameless). My next priority is to price the book at or below the current market value of products similar to mine. Wal-Mart’s success is proof of this sound principle. So, I try to price my product at $13. $12 when allowable. However, when purchases are made and there are no discounts involved, be it bookstore or distributor, the price is always lowered to an even $10. Reason being, I realize that based on printing costs, the targeted profit margin is sufficient enough that we won’t lose money and we can help consumers/readers by passing cost savings along to them.
And that, dear Troy is my philosophy and opinion on GREED in the publishing industry which by all accounts is a business that has serious room for improvement. Unless by this latest rebuttal, you have chosen to come over to the dark side, I must at this time offer a cordial draw in this contest. You are a most worthy debater and I congratulate you on what I feel has been needed and well articulated dialogue.
Written With Warmth
Brian Egeston
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Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 02:44 am: |
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All points noted and no further comments from me...I just want to know one thing...which can also be perceived as GREED or trying to get over or a few other not so nice terms....
As a person who has bought 20-30 copies of books from quite a few self-published authors to help them out...why is it that they didn't feel the need to give me (as the buyer) a discount of more than 10% when they give distributors/amazon/etc. up to a 60% percent discount...or is it 40%? I had even edited one of the books...ROFL...and got a $2 discount (didn't charge for editing eitha)...
In either case...I don't quite understand this. No, I don't expect to get the book free, but why can't I get what Amazon can get? Or a distributor?
I've never been out to make a profit and in most cases have paid for the books out of my pocket up front to offer this service to my members hoping that they'd buy the books like they said they would (yeah right). A few thousand dollars later...and some not to be named books STILL sitting on my shelves, I had to stop doing this.
Why can't a sista (who is only trying to help the author and the addicted readers who want the books), get a deal?
::::rolling eyes:::: I'm just slightly not over this. ROFL.
-Tee
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Note to any authors who may be reading who sold me books...no hard feelings. I consider it a lesson learned. |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 03:36 pm: |
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Brian: I see you like a spirited debate, as do I. I also appreciate the fact that you understand that personal experiences are not the substance of meaningful debate on issues that extend beyond the individual. Sure people are passionate about what they believe and their experiences can be quite moving. I don’t want to negate a person’s experiences, however one needs more than personal experiences to understand the world.
My arguments above were catered to Scholastics’ Harry Potter book. However you’ve introduced a different scenario to support your original argument. That’s fine, I’ll address it as well by bringing in a couple of other factors which should make up a pricing model (greed still will not enter the equation).
I spoke about how the demand for Potter’s book supports a price significantly higher than production costs. Now consumer electronics are a little different. Yes, the cost of production have gone down in this space, and those reductions in production costs have translated to lower product prices. We all know computers, TV’s, cell phones, have become less expensive and better over time.
While there is a relation to the cost of production; a significant contributor for the reduction in price is “supply”. As the supply of available items increases, there is downward pressure on the price. Typically supply and demand are looked at together to determine to determine an optimal price. As more competitors enter the arena offering, effectively, the same product, the price will be pushed down to production costs – even to the point where product price is less than production costs! Competitors who can not reduce production costs, will go out of business. Indeed, it is often a strategy to sell items below cost in the hopes your competitor will go out of business. The ideal scenario is where you are the only one supplying a product. This is called a monopoly. When you have a monopoly you determine supply and can directly price to the point where you maximize profits without having to worry about competitors.
Now suppose I had a monopoly on something mandatory to sustain life, like food. Suppose I then decided to set the price so high above production costs that some people could not afford to eat and would therefore starve. If it is also true that I could set prices slightly lower and AND still make a nice profit while ensuring everyone can afford to eat. Then setting the price at the point where some people stare is not only greedy, but evil.
Scholastic is not being greedy. While they have a monopoly on the Potter books; people can chose not to buy them, and there are other children books being published.
Here is another tibit to consider: When a pharmaceutical company spends years of research to develop a pill which costs 25 cents to manufacture, but sells it for say three dollars. Politicians which argue that the pharmaceutical company are being greedy by not making potentially life saving pills less expense. The public buys this argument, because from their personal experiences all they know it that they need less expensive medicine, all the while ignoring the need for drug maker to recover, with a profit, the money invested to create the product.
How much money does J.K. Rowling deserve for the Harry Potter franchise? Her effort was more that simply the time invested in writing a single book. I’m sure Rowling spent a life time honing her craft to the point where so many people would derive pleasure from her work. If the publisher can command 30 bucks for her book – more power to them.
Brian there is also the issue of perceived value. Charge too little and some people may not buy your product because they believe it is not valuable.
Suffice it to say that you must consider a lot more than production costs when pricing a book. Don’t confuse those who practice good business judgment with those who are greedy.
There are enough business people who are greedy, for example those who will continue to contribute to the garbage in our music, at the expense of our youth solely to make more money -- direct your energy toward those folk.
Peace,
Troy
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 23, 2003 - 09:49 pm: |
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What are we really talking about here check it:
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (Book 5)
#1 on Amazon (also #1 on B&N), not due to be published until June 21st $17.99, 896 pages
Compare:
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (Book 1)
Published Sept 1998, 309 pages
So for 4 bucks more you get a book three times the size -- a bargin!
Of course the 40% Amazon discount drives advance, on-line sales. I'm sure brick and mortor sales are being cannablized. I wonder what percentage of sales will be made online v.s. the physical store when it is all over. This does not bode well for bookstores since they can not take advantage of the advance order sales in the same way that an Amazon can.
And hey, if you are going to buy the next Potter book on-line why not click the link below and help AALBC.com get a share of that fat Scholastic pie, at least while Amazon is still giving a cut to its affiliates.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/043935806X/aalbccom-20
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