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AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board » Thumper's Corner - Archive 2008 » Can Black Authors Live Only on Black Support? « Previous Next »

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Emanuel
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Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 03:27 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Many black authors try hard to gain crossover appeal through writing and through marketing. Is it really necessary? Or can black authors rely only on black dollars alone?
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Urban_scribe
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Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2008 - 05:01 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Based on the stats, I would say Black authors can NOT rely solely on Black readers.

Here's why: Publishing is roughly a 30 billion dollar industry. Black publishing accounts for approx 2 billion dollars or just one-fifteenth of the overall industry. For every $1 Blacks spend on books, Whites/non-Blacks spend $15. So to REALLY blow up, Black authors/publishers NEED to market their books to a White/non-Black readership in addition to a Black readership, whereas White/non-Black authors and mainstream publishers really don't need to appeal to Black readers. It helps, of course; every penny counts, but the numbers prove that mainstream publishers garnering a Black readership for their White/non-Black authors is not a marketing necessity.

This is one of the reasons Black publishing is so far behind mainstream publishing. Black publishing is focusing on the 2 billion, whereas mainstream publishing is focusing on the 28 billion.
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A_womon
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Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well Emanuel,

I guess you could ask some of the black publishers, like Vicky Stringer and her Triple Crown publications which are doing extremely well in the black market.

She has sold an awful lot of books in the predominately black market ( i doubt if a lot of whites read her writer's books, but I could be wrong) And she is a millionaire at least a couple of times over now...
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Troy
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Posted on Monday, September 22, 2008 - 08:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Emanuel of course a Black author can "Live Only on Black Support?" if we use Urban_scribe's numbers it is a $2 billion dollar pie. And the pie is not fixed -- it gets bigger every year.

Very few authors, or publishers for that matter, want to ONLY sell books to Black people. Most publishers and authors are in business to make money and are therefore interested in selling books to anyone that will buy them.

But writing a book that will appeal to the broadest possible audience and making that audience aware that the book even exists is very difficult -- for ANY author.

In other words, just 'cause you decide you wanna cross over to a white audience does not mean you'll make more money -- indeed you may make less...

The main reason "Black Publishing" is so far behind. Is that most of the "mainstream Publishers" have had a head start of 100 years or more.

Lets give Stringer another 50 years in the business and see how Triple Crown compares then.

At the end of the day, readers want to read good books. Terry McMillan, for example, writes books that feature Black folks. One might construe her novels as being for Black folks only. Book, but her stories reasonate with a large audience and have universal appeal -- because she is a good writer.

So E, if someone writes a good book the question you posed becomes largely moot.
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Vanders
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 09:04 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey All;
I love this dialogue going back and forth. I'm not as knowledgeable about the publishing market but I certainly hope black authors can more than adequately support themselves with our black dollars without feeling they have to cross over. I'm tired of our folks crossing over, especially in the music industry (sorry, I digress), but I belong to two book clubs and we read and purchase exclusively books written by black authors. And I hate to admit it, but many of my white co-worker have introduced me to black authors and shared with me books they purchased by black authors. I am a social worker by profession and there are alot of white liberal readers in our field. Vanders
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Urban_scribe
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 11:34 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Troy, those are not my stats. I didn't "invent" or arbitrarily pull numbers out of thin air. Those figures can be researched and verified.

And the point I'm making is: why settle for a slice of just the 2 billion dollar pie when, if Black Publishing broadens its marketing and promotions, it can have a slice of the 28 billion dollar pie?

Can Black publishers/authors become successful by marketing and promoting SOLELY to a Black readership? Absolutely. BUT, they're still allocating themselves to getting just a portion of the $2 billion, rather than a portion of the $28 billion.

Let's compare Vickie's success to say, Lynn Price's success. Lynn is the the publisher of Behler Publications, a small independent mainstream press. Lynn is White as are most of Behler's authors. Behler launched around the same time TCP launched. For all of TCP's success, Behler's numbers are almost four times more impressive.

Both small presses, both independently owned, both launched around the same time, both part of the publishing industry. So what separates TCP and Behler? Why is Behler 4x more successful than TCP? Simple: Behler is part of mainstream publishing, which means Behler has tapped into the $28 billion market. TCP is part of Black Publishing, which means TCP has only tapped into the $2 billion market.

As someone who works in publishing, I'd much prefer my company to share in the spoils of 28 billion dollars than 2 billion dollars. But hey, to each his own...

The main reason "Black Publishing" is so far behind. Is that most of the "mainstream Publishers" have had a head start of 100 years or more.

That's a real NIGGAH excuse! Using that logic, that makes it okay for Black authors/publishers to write/publish inferior books. That makes all the typos okay, the lack of editing okay, the lack of copyediting okay, amateur page layout okay, amateur cover design okay, and a slew of other shortcomings and inadequacies prevalent in Black Publishing - hey, they're okay, too - cuz us niggaz b noo ta dis hurr litritcha!

That's the thinking that condemns Black Publishing to being merely a "special interest branch of the publishing industry." To mainstream publishing - the REAL publishing industry - Black Publishing is an afterthought. I suppose I'm making that up, too.

Y'know, the main reason I seldom participate in publishing discussions on this forum these days is because my training is in mainstream publishing, not Black Publishing. I often read misinformation on this site regarding the publishing industry. (I suppose that's how it works in Black Publishing, though). I've wanted to jump in and try to pull people's coats to how it works in mainstream publishing, but knew I would be bulldozed because people would be offended by the facts, so I remained silent.

This will be my final post on anything regarding the publishing industry on this forum, because this forum is focused on Black Publishing, whereas I'm focused on mainstream publishing. That's like comparing cubic zirconia to diamonds, projects to penthouses. The diamonds and penthouses being mainstream publishing, of course. Y'know, those suckers who control 85% of the industry? And divvy up 28 billion dollars, which makes 2 billion dollars look like scraps. But niggahs are accustomed to scraping at the bottom of the barrel, hoping whitey left them a lil sumpin-sumpin.

I'll leave y'all with this:

If Black Publishing is sooooo wonderful, why are most Black authors who had their first books published by a Black Publishing company striving desperately to land a mainstream publishing deal?

If Black Publishing is soooo wonderful, why are most Black publishers striving desperately to land distribution deals with mainstream publishing companies?

Let's hear the niggah answer: the White man's ice is colder.

WRONG! It ain't colder, but he got more ice!
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Troy
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 03:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Urban_scribe, you are WAY too sensitive. I merely associated the publishing figure to you because you supplied it -- not because I thought you made it up. Indeed, I was using the figure you supplied to support my argument. I have no issue with the numbers.

However, appreciating the benefits of a century longevity and experience in a business is not a "NIGGAH excuse". Actually I'm rather surprised by your conclusion. I would certainly expect a Random House or Hachette to have larger organizations, be better capitalized and produce a better products than a company like Triple Crown Publications. Common sense makes this plain. As a result it should not come to a surprise that many authors would prefer to be published by the older companies, for the reasons mentioned.

This in no way disparages Triple Crown Publishing (TCP). TCP are the new kids on the block and will make mistakes, as all new entities do. I fully expect them to get better over time. As they growth their infrastructure, increase their capital, gain experience and build a brand for themselves, in this industry, they will certainly be in a position to capture a larger piece of the whole pie.

In reality, Urban_scribe the real "NIGGAH" attitude is the one that results in a statement like this:

quote:

That's a real NIGGAH excuse! Using that logic, that makes it okay for Black authors/publishers to write/publish inferior books. That makes all the typos okay, the lack of editing okay, the lack of copyediting okay, amateur page layout okay, amateur cover design okay, and a slew of other shortcomings and inadequacies prevalent in Black Publishing - hey, they're okay, too - cuz us niggaz b noo ta dis hurr litritcha!



Why do you so cavalierly equate "Black authors/publishers" with "inferior books"? Or assume “Black publishing” is not “real” publishing.

Smiley books published the likes of Iyanla Vanzant and Cornel West. Carl Weber’s Urban books just published Susan Taylor. Susan could have been published by a major house but Carl got the business ‘cause he could get the job DONE!. Have you heard of Just Us Books who are publishing children’s books that are in schools all over the country? Have you heard of Africa World Press & Red Sea Press? AWP/RSP publishes about 100 book a year that are read across Africa and the Diaspora. These are just a few examples of real publishers.
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Carey
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 05:21 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am really surprised ...I doubt I've ever seen someone come up in TC's wearing arrogance that was as thin as cheap toilet paper. Why would a person ...that claims to be in the know ...expose her ignorance ...the way she did. i wonder if she really thought she said something?

On top of that ...she showed her class(ass) or lack there of by making stupid statements and then saying she wasn't coming back ...that's kid shit ...that's like spitting off a bridge.

Why then ...did she even post it? why do we do that ...you know ...make a bold defenseless statement and then cry and low-ball back.

I would think if someone has a difference with something posted they would address it. Of course ...they can do as she and spin it ...and really stank the place.

Ni**er type S**t huh, I really don't think the women knows N**ger Sh*t....well ...am just saying, a fox smells.......
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Urban_scribe
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 05:32 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Troy,

What you call sensitivity, I call passion. And I don't equate Black authors/publishers with inferior books - the industry does. I don't consider Black Publishing "not real publishing" - the industry does. I repeat: Black Publishing is classified as "a special interest branch of the publishing industry."

Why do you think there is a separate section in bookstores labeled "African American Literature"? And everything, be it Science Fiction, Romance, Urban Fiction, Mystery, Erotica, Fantasy, etc, if it's written by a Black author or published by a Black press, and ESPECIALLY, if it's written by a Black author AND published by a Black press, it's all thrown together in the African American Literature section.

The major players, ie, RH, S&S, HC, have enough clout to EXPLICITLY tell bookstores buyers DO NOT place their titles by Af-Am authors in the Af-Am Lit section until 6-8 months after publication date. Why would they make such a request, Troy? You know the answer to that as well as I do: the first 6-8 months after a book's published are the "hot months," the months where new releases generate the bulk of their sales. The big boys know, in most likelihood, only the 2 billion dollar market is going to even bother to look in the Af-Am Lit section. So don't you dare put our titles "over there". Put our shit where the 28 billion dollar market will see it.

On the other hand, a Mystery novel by a White Mystery author will be, where else, in the Mystery section. A Romance novel by a White Romance author will be, where else, in the Romance section. But Af-Am lit, regardless to genre, is all lumped together - because Black Publishing is a special interest branch of the publishing industry.

I find that insulting, and you're right, I'm sensitive about that shit. It is that sensitivity that drives my passion.

Anyhowway, I'm not supposed to be commenting further on the industry, am I? Before I go, got this in my inbox today:

Random House Children's announced first-day sales of 550,000 copies for Christopher Paolini's BRISINGR, the biggest one-day sale ever for a book from the division. The publisher says that number is four times the opening day sale of Paolini's previous title, ELDEST, in 2005. (That book was estimated to have sold 425,000 copies in the first week on sale.)

President of RH Children's Chip Gibson says in the announcement, "We are thrilled with the first day's sale of BRISINGR: the numbers have far surpassed our projections. We are grateful to booksellers everywhere for this incredible success and look forward with them to continued sales of the Inheritance cycle books throughout the fall and into the holiday season."

In the UK, Random House says they sold 45,000 copies, more than twice the opening day sales of Stephenie Meyer's book earlier in the year (though Meyer's opening day in the US exceeded a million copies). And in Australia, they say they sold over 30,000 copies in the first two days on sale, "a staggering figure for the Australian market."


And you were talking about who, Just Us Books? Gimme a break!

Troy, we're on the same team, our approach is just different. You look for the silver lining in Black Publishing, the exception. I don't. I can't; not when I know the exception in Black Publishing is the rule in mainstream publishing.
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Urban_scribe
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 05:39 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Carey, you're a retard. Your posts are non-sensical and you're NOT funny. Stick to your ilk.
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Carey
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Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2008 - 10:05 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And you're a Potatoe Head ...I thought you weren't going to post in this tread? Changed your mind huh ...backed up THAT train!

I love it when you talk dirty to me!

Spank me some more ...please. I love the way your lips curl when you say retard.
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Carey
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Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 01:22 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Look Scribe ...and I ain't trying to be funny ...your impertinent remarks about black publishing seemed a little out of line and your logic didn't support your arguement. Let me back up ...I know individuals in "black publishing" ...hard working detail orientated individuals ...they have realistic dreams of success. As Troy stated, some dreams have already come to fruition. You seemed to miss a key point ...well, maybe you didn't care to address it ...TIME. It goes without arguement that if someone started a task 100 yrs ahead of you than maybe it might take a little time to catch up. Remember, we are talking about black people ...those that were denied the right to vote ...do I need to remind you whose running for president of The United States. Do I need to remind you that we once were denied admission into theaters ...NOW one of the top grossing talents is a black man ...Spike Lee also has a new movie coming out this weekend. Some time ago we couldn't sit downstairs. A few "short" years ago the National Guard had to assist black students into a State College, but look at us now. Sure Scripe, the larger chunk of the "money" is now being spent on other books ...published by other firms but your total disrespect for those trying to do their thang in the publishing arena was IMO, over the top and totally without merit. You called it pulling or coats, I smelled bashing. Your post ...quite frankly was "Relentless". And you are right, sometimes I am not funny ...I'll accept that ...and you are??? That's right, you're done with this post.

Sorry Scripe but you need to get off that cloud.

Stupid is what stupid does :-).
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Troy
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Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 09:24 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Urban_scribe, there you go taking my points and making absurd statements. I raised <b>Just Us Books</i> as an example of a "real" pubisher.

You twist that into an comparison with Random House, which is owned by Bertelsmann the 3rd largest publisher on the planet and the largest publisher of English language books -- come on!

Often the store's patrons want to know where the Black books are and this often drives the manner in which books are shelved. If was not very long ago where there were not enough books by Black writers to create a entire African American section.

Besides publishers can say what the want; but books stores make the decision where books are placed in their stores.

Publishers and book sellers are interested in making money. The whole concept that Black book are placed into a separate section because they are "a special interest branch" such extreme thinking one might call it paranoia, not passion.

That said, I've been in enough major books tsores to know even if they have a Black section, you will also find Black authors (especially top selling ones) mixed in with the various genres.

You say "the industry" calls "Black Publishing" all of the bad things you describe. Can you tell me who, in "the industry", is deriding all of Black publishing?

It is interesting that most of the major houses, you hold in such high esteem, have launched "Black" imprints in an effort to make more money. They seem to take Black publishing use as seriously as you do.

I just posted a video of Kensignton's founder Walter Zacharius http://aalbc.com/authors/walter_zacharius.htm in fact he sold Arabeque books to Bob Johnson.

But I guess it is only "bad" when Black people are publishing books, huh?

I suggest you stop listening to "the industry", whoever they might be...
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Carey
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Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 09:29 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Damn, I can't let this go *lol*

But since I am sitting in this spot...this house...TC's, I am compelled to defend it. I just can't understand the gall of someone to come up into a "Black" house...a house for and about black folk and make those statements.

Sribe, you asked for a "niggah answer" ...you've been doing quite well...yes sir ...making us proud.

Can we start with "the white man's ice ain't colder but he got more ice"

And then you let this "hide + seek" drop out of your mainstream mouth: "And I don't equate Black Authors/publishers with inferior books...the industry does...WHAT!

Did the African American section say "inferior" books... I know you have a dictionary.

Come on a take a walk with me. Lets skip back a few years. Look over there, can you see that sign? It says "Chitlin' Circuit" ...jump forward, it says JayZ,Micheal Jackson, Ray Charles, 50cents.

Lets jump back, keep walking. The sign says "Negro League", I smell African Amercan Section. The white man's baseball was a little colder and slower, we caught up.

You implied inferior and then tried to hide behind "mainstream". The signs didn't say inferior.

Yes, marketing and product placement are essential elements to any endeavor. It does not speak to the quality of the book or the skills of the author/publisher...it's a business decision. I'll tell you what, I love moving right to the "section". Make my funk the "P" funk, I want to get funked up!

Yes, there are visionaries like Troy and the other publishing house that were mentioned in this thread. Yes, they look at the silver lining in the cloud. I can assume you know good clothe? Well, what does that lining tell you?

You said that you were hesitant about posting your "knowledge" because of a fear of being "Bulldozed". Damn girl, you walked around here showing all your stuff, seems to me you were asking for a good F'kin'...And that ain't funny.
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the question was not well framed.

Of course Black authors can live only on Black Support. They may not make as much money as white authors--then again that might not be true, either.

Should you frame the question differently, or specify what type of authors you are talking about, the answer is different.

Let us consider genre.

A black science fiction author, up to this point, cannot get by on black support. Too few blacks read science fiction. Most of Samuel R Delaney, Steve Barnes, Octavia Butler, Nalo Hopkinson's fans are white.

The question does not take into account those black writers who write "black" and have lots of white support. There are lots of white readers who read African American authors--Terry McMillain does not write "white" but gets lots of white readers. John Edgar Wideman.

McMillain even sells in them Stephen King numbers--though she hasn't written as many books.

How many white fans do Iceberg Slim, Donald Goines and Chester Himes have? Himes' Harlem Detective series were first published in France for Frenchmen?

No black writer is putting up a sign, "Blacks only" when he or she writes. Just the same, nobody really knows if a writer is black when they read their books. Look at Frank Yerby.

Of course, one can take a good guess. And one certainly can guess with some accuracy whether a book will appeal primarily to blacks.

But look at books like "Black Boy". "Native Son". Black people did not put them on the best seller lists.

Maybe the question should be framed, "Can a black author write black and still make the best seller lists"?
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Urban_scribe
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Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 - 04:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, I'm coming to your neck of the woods April 2009 to give a presentation on Trends in Adolescent Literature at Webster University. Can you recommend any good hot spots? I'll only be there one week, and I want to see as much of St. Louis as possible in such a short time frame. Hit me up when you have a chance: urbanscribe_ny@yahoo.com

Thx much!
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Emanuel
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Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2008 - 08:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow! What have I created? LOL! Seriously though, I posed the question because I've heard from authors who have been told by literary agents and publishers they're stories might offend non-Blacks. My question to myself was, why can't those authors just write what's in their hearts and shoot for black support?

When I say "live" off of black support, I mean can black authors make a living as an author by selling mostly to black people? I don't think you necessarily have to be on the bestseller list to live from writing but I'm sure it helps. Correct me if I'm wrong but I can't recall Relentless Aaron's name appearing on a bestseller list but we all know he is a bestseller on the streets and his numerous book deals are well-known.

It just seems like so many black authors try hard to get that crossover appeal and sell their souls when all they may need is to cater to the millions of black buyers out there.

Is there anything wrong with black authors with black people on their covers and black characters with stories black people can relate to between the pages? Are there any choices in publishing for those people besides non-traditional publishing?
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Urban_scribe
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Posted on Friday, September 26, 2008 - 07:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Troy, would you allow someone to operate on you who never studied medicine? Would you allow someone to fix your car who never studied mechanics? But your "suggestion" to someone who works in publishing is to NOT study the industry? Hmmm, guess you told me...

How 'bout this: How 'bout you stick with your 2 billion dollar Black Publishing circle, and I'll stick with my 28 billion dollar mainstream publishing circle? Deal?

And may I suggest you familiarize yourself with mainstream publishing standard practices ... when you're ready.

Gotta run - pizza's here and my kids are calling me to come watch The Simpsons.
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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2008 - 11:59 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Obviously it's all a matter of being a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond. "Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer choice".
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, September 28, 2008 - 11:00 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting thread. I'd love to hear folks' opinions about "the Black reading audience"--folks who have more expertise in publishing than I do. It would seem to me that Blacks in our reading habits are as varied as in almost any other area: We are not all the same. So would a Black reader who enjoys mysteries pick up a romance book just because it is written by a Black author? I doubt it. Of course there are books that cross genres, and even age groups and maybe that helps. (For example, adults who read the Harry Potter books.)

I've also read that in publishing generally, a small percentage of authors account for the majority of sales in any given year. So it sounds like most authors are not doing exceptionally well regardless of their race or who their audience is. But of course there is a difference between being a filthy rich author and being able to "live" off of your writing. I'd think that depends on the individual and how she or he defines an acceptable living. And I assume that reputation from writing helps garner more income in addition to actual book sales--like getting a university teaching position, or running writing workshops, or getting public speaking gigs, or freelance newspaper and magazine writing and such.

Finally, considering what percentage of the world's population is literate, then the smaller percentage that is literate in any given author's language, then the even further smaller percentage that purchases more than a couple of books in a given year... I have much respect for anyone who can make any money at all from writing books. As a reader I say more power to them and keep it coming!

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