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Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 614
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 03:37 pm: | 
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Hello All,
The previous thread concerning the McMillan quote, a question came to me, were the glory days of "high brow" AA literature occur BEFORE the success of Waiting to Exhale. I ask because I am looking back and can not recall a good many books published after Exhale receiving across the board acclaim, with the possible exception of The Known World and a few others. The Color Purple, most of Toni Morrison's best works, The Middle Passage, Gorilla My Love, and others were all published before "Exhale" and won Pulitzer and National Book Awards. Frankly, they were getting published. Did Exhale kill the AA literary fiction? |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 641
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 06:57 pm: |
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I think "Exhale" paved the way for so many contemporary writers like E. Lynn Harris, Eric Jerome Dickey, and Mary Monroe among others. Before this book, there were not a lot of books with black characters dealing with male/female romantic relationships. If I recall, there were not a lot of movies back then that showed black actors in love scenes. Why black love was taboo I'll never know.
I wasn't much of a fiction reader until the last ten years or so. The fiction I read before then was usually required reading for high school or college. When I worked in a college bookstore I had a lot of free time on my hands so I would read books like "The Sun Also Rises," books by bell hooks, and other stuff. Most of the books I read were by white authors. Like you, I started reading the classics like "Invisible Man," and "100 Years of Solitude" much later in life.
Sure black authors were getting published before "Exhale" but not at the pace they are today. I'm sure publishers salivated at the idea of publishing the next "Waiting to Exhale" and began looking more seriously at black writers who write contemporary fiction. Then online subsidy publishing took off, and it became much easier to self publish a novel because of technology.
People who read high brow stuff were very critical of McMillan. I remember Paul Mooney saying something like 'That ain't nothing but some Jackie Collins sh_t.' But she got a whole lot of people reading. And because she became a bestseller, got movie deals, and appeared on Oprah she also got a whole lot of people writing.
I think McMillan, Zane, and Sistah Souljah are all trailblazers in their genre for African Americans whether a reader likes their work and their successors work or not. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 616
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 08:04 pm: |
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Hello,
Emanuel: We all know that McMillan paved the way for a lot of AA writers that before Exhale their books would not have been published. But, my question is more pertaining to the AA authors that were getting published to critical acclaim BEFORE Exhale. What did Exhale do for those writers? Did John Edgar Wideman or Charles Johnson become more widely read after Exhale? Alice Walker got benefit from the movie The Color Purple, but in all honesty I had not heard of the book before the movie. I only heard of Toni Morrison AFTER she won the Nobel Prize. I can't place their success on Exhale's back for each author had their audience BEFORE Exhale. I think this is what fuel the argument of "high brow" versus "low brow" basically jealousy because the "high brow" AA lit had gone underground. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 643
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 10:12 am: |
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Hmmm. I guess that depends on what you call underground. Far as I know, the high brow authors are still being published traditionally and their books are on the shelves. It wouldn't surprise me if newer "high brow" authors were rejected more after "Exhale" because publishers always ride the wave of what is selling.
I like some high brow stuff but a lot of it is boring. Don't try to dazzle me with your million dollar vocabulary because I can get that from the nonfiction I read. Give me a good story!
I only heard of Toni Morrison after "Exhale." I tried reading "Beloved" but couldn't get past the awkward dialogue. I did read "Their Eyes Were Watching God" by Zora Neale Hurston during my college bookstore days too.
Some books that really got me excited about reading more fiction by black authors include "Blood on the Leaves" by Jeff Stetson, "The Darkest Child" by Delores Phillips, "Leaving Cecil Street" by Diane McKinney Whetstone, "So You Call Yourself a Man" by Carl Weber "Nowhere is a Place" by Bernice McFadden and of course "Invisible Man." Ellison's and McFadden's work are probably the only ones considered high brow out of that group. But now even McFadden is writing contemporary fiction.
A poll of high brow authors and a poll of readers who began reading more after reading "Exhale" would probably answer your question.
To me, "Exhale" was an entertaining read with feminist undertones. I wasn't blown away by the writing but I probably wasn't in the target audience. Some men were hurt by what they called male bashing but to me it was just a slice of life. Did the male characters in the book act like men in real life? Yup. They might not be typical black men but they were certainly realistic.
What's important is that the book opened doors for others. Can you imagine all the query letters told how the authors' books were like McMillan's? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12769
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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I think Terry McMillian personified the vangard of "an idea whose time had come". There is a correletion between her popularity surge and the stage black people were going through in their incursion into mainstream America. The Civil Rights movement had left Blacks hungry for what other Americans had. Whether by design or by accident, MacMillian filled this void by providing a black version of pop lit. Tired of reading staid or gloomy or quaint or intellectual books about people of their race, black female readers in particular were delighted to be able to find something with which they could identify. Now they could enjoy a written version of the TV soap operas which had captivated so many of them.
It was a stroke of genius that inspired Terry to capitalize on the ongoing contentous relationship between black men and black women, using this theme to play itself out in "Waiting To Exhale". The ripple effect of this phenomenon did leave high-brow novels in its wake. Like their white counterparts, however, black literary books have always attracted a limited amount of patronage. Pop lit books didn't cause this; they simply made it obvious when they generated much higher sales. Nevertheless, in the process of broadening the black reader base, pop lit can be credited with with inspiring more adventurous readers to diversity their tastes and check out some of the more sophisticated works.
Bottom line is that, like anything else, readers can be classified. The common people prefer common reading matter. The literary elite just have to learn to live with this and it should not be taken lightly that a hundred years from today, there will still be an audience for books like "Waiting To Exhale". Ironically such books might be categorized as historical fiction. The salvation of classical literature is that it is intrinsically classical -and, as such it, too, will endure.  |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3142
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 01:35 pm: |
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It was a stroke of genius that inspired Terry to capitalize on the ongoing contentious relationship between black men and black women, using this theme to play itself out in "Waiting To Exhale".
Agree, Cynique. Does anyone know anything about how well this book crossed over with non-black women? By the sales numbers I would assume it did well across the board. If so, then I think the other "wave" that Exhale was well positioned for was mainstream (e.g., non "romance" genre) fiction specifically by, for and about mature women. I know some of these same conversations about "high" and "low" are happening around the "chick-lit" genre. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 414
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 04:04 pm: |
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To me, "Exhale" was an entertaining read with feminist undertones. I wasn't blown away by the writing but I probably wasn't in the target audience. Some men were hurt by what they called male bashing but to me it was just a slice of life. Did the male characters in the book act like men in real life? Yup. They might not be typical black men but they were certainly realistic.
Emanuel, this is the first time I've heard a black man--actually any man--make this point. I'm curious to know if you apply the same thinking to "The Color Purple" and accusations that it (and by extension, Walker) is anti-black male. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 619
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:34 pm: |
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Hello All,
FK: You wrote, "Emanuel, this is the first time I've heard a black man--actually any man--make this point. I'm curious to know if you apply the same thinking to "The Color Purple" and accusations that it (and by extension, Walker) is anti-black male."
I did not find The Color Purple anti-black male, nor would I attached that term to any of Walker's fiction. To some people, the truth hurts. To me, although Mister was a MF, I find that alot of people forget that Mister. changed into a better person after Celie left. I know the movie did not go into it, but the book did. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 646
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:05 pm: |
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Really FK? That was a big ordeal when the book was first released. McMillan even addressed it when she was on Oprah. I remember her talking about the movie version saying the characters played by Gregory Hines and Wesley Snipes were good men.
But yeah, that book was about women empowering themselves and depending on each other for support, especially when the menfolk weren't treating them right. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 417
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:22 pm: |
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Really FK? That was a big ordeal when the book was first released.
I heard about the ordeal; I just never heard a black man say what you said in response to this complaint. The consensus seemed to be, among black men, that in "The Color Purple" and Walker were both anti-black male. Also, I read a commentary that said that the black man bashing was the reason the book won the Pulitzer (i.e., whites like books which are anti-black-male). |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 647
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 08:46 pm: |
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Ohhh. Okay. I get ya now.
I think things need to be examined by looking at the big picture. There are probably way more books (movies, and music videos) with a male chauvinist point of view than any male bashing "Exhale" could have ever produced. How about "She's Gotta Have It"? How about just about ANY hip hop video out today? Let's not even talk about the atrocities women face around the world such as genital mutilation and stoning for adultery if she "allowed" herself to be raped. "Exhale" is just a blip in comparison.
"Exhale" is just one perspective and it addressed what a lot of black women had experienced so of course it would be a bestseller.
I never read "The Color Purple" and I did not get that anti-black male feeling people talked about in regards to the movie. In fact, I found it interesting that the character Oprah played was the strongest yet she was punished when displaying her strength beyond its boundaries. Mister was just an asshole and I looked forward to seeing him suffer for it. (It took me a while to get used to Danny Glover being a good cop in the first Lethal Weapon movie too. I still wanted to kill him.)
As for me, I am an avid reader of anything by bell hooks who often discusses feminist theory and applies it to pop culture. She's a big influence in how I think in regards to male/female relationships on a universal level. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 418
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:04 pm: |
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Emanuel, thanks for elaborating on your perspective, esp. regarding how explicitly anti-black-female media gets a pass. And all to often, the pass comes from the same voices that would criticize Walker et al for being anti-black male.
(Thumper, may I? Thanks!)
*eyebrow raised* |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12774
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:03 pm: |
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I recall that "The Color Purple" did produce a blacklash among Black males when it first came out. And it didn't help that the movie was directed by a white Jewish man, Stephen Spielberg. In any case, when Oscar time rolled around, although the movie was nominated in many categories, it didn't take home one award. Go figure. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 625
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 12:26 am: |
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Hello,
I remember much Hell being raised back in the day when The Color Purple came out. I didn't see what the fuss was. It was all rather silly. I remember the NAACP raising much Hell. Believe me I gave their argument all the attention it deserved. *rolling my eyes* They were pissed at Spielberg but I think that was all penis envy. I have a bad feeling that if the movie was made by the leading black directors of that day, the movie would have been different; Whoopi Goldberg would not have been cast as Celie (or any other dark skinned black actress for that matter), and script would have been so watered down that it would have bore no resemblance to the book. As I always say, Time is the great bullsh_t sifter. I see The Color Purple more today than I did back then. When the Oxygen channel is done running a The Color Purple marathon, the We channel will run one. And the movie that won the Oscar, nobody can remember it, and if they do, they don't watch it because its boring as hell (Out of Africa). |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 419
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 12:42 am: |
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Alice Walker won the 1983 Pulitzer Prize for "The Color Purple," a novel which gained even further recognition -- as well as fierce criticism -- when Steven Spielberg turned it into a movie. In her latest book, "The Same River Twice: Honoring the Difficult" Walker grapples with some of the issues raised in the making of the film. The following are excerpts of a conversation held between Walker and her former professor Howard Zinn (of Spelman College in Georgia) as part of San Francisco's City Arts and Lectures series.
Given the impact of your novel "The Color Purple," it was a real risk to do the film, and so hard to make people happy with it. Did you have a hard time being satisfied with it?
Of course I did, but I had to accept that it was different. There are so many ways of thinking about why you decide to collectively do something rather than stay in your solitude. For me, I was always thinking about growing up in Edenton, N.C. It was totally segregated. In the theaters, white people would be down below, and we would be up in the gallery, where the broken seats were. I had never seen a film that had black people in real character roles, you know, where they were actually real people. They were only servants and maids and stereotypes.
I never thought that one of my books would become a film -- never. When Steven Spielberg appeared, there was a part of me that saw it as a magical thing. It was a great risk, of course, because I don't know that Steven has been South yet. But there was something about this person appearing, open-hearted, very intense and very loving toward this book.
In "The Same River Twice" you say Spielberg said his favorite film of all time was "Gone With the Wind."
Maybe he was joking. He didn't mention this until we were almost to the end of filming, and I felt like, "Oh, my God." I think it turned out okay, it's still not the script I wrote to myself.
How do you respond to the attacks on the movie in regard to the treatment of black men?
I felt thoroughly trashed for many years because the attacks didn't just happen around the showing of the film; they continued for a long time. The only way I could keep going was to stay in my work. Black men -- not all black men, but the ones who were violently opposed to my work -- I think were dealing out of ego and were unable to even see the male characters that I had created.
I often think if O.J. Simpson had read the book and seen the film, as art, it could have helped him deal with his life. And we as a black community could have been saved a lot of embarrassment, a lot of horror, and a lot of grief, because he would have been a different person.
What did you think of the film "Waiting to Exhale?"
I enjoyed it, although I found the women (in the movie) very strange. I don't think I know any women who are that desperate for men. But I have inquired among people that I meet, and they say there are women who are really that desperate. In a way it hurts me, because I feel like the world is full of abundance, in relationships as well as in other areas, and to be so fixated on any person or thing is just not good for your soul.
Whether or not Terry McMillan should have written this or made a movie of it or whatever -- of course she should have. This is how she sees life. She is an artist and she should be supported in her view. I hope that people are more understanding and less eager to trash than they were ten years ago.
Source: http://www.salon.com/09/departments/litchat1.html |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 627
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 02:25 am: |
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Hello,
FK: I read Walker's book The Same River Twice. It's a real good book. She included her screenplay for the movie. What she was going through before, during and after the movie. I you haven't read it, I recommend it. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 420
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:40 am: |
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Hey, thanks for the recommendation, Thumper. I hadn't heard of that title before this discussion. |
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