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Thumper
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 02:38 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello All,

I don't know if any of you know about Mat Johnson's website Niggerati Manor, niggeratimanor.com. I've come to love it. While I was going to school, I would stop by and read a few of Mat's blogs. One of his blogs concern the African American literature; one aspect, low brow versus high brow. The blog touches on a few points.

My favorite is a quote from Terry McMillan:

“I just think there are some people who try too hard. They just think every sentence has to be perfect. I’m the sort of writer who thinks your first draft is your most honest. You know, get the story out any way you can. You don’t have to think about it. Just write it. Experience it. Don’t worry how pretty it sounds, how lilting it is, and the imagery, and the metaphor, all that. Most readers don’t care. It’s the people in your book that matter. It’s the human element. The emotional response that matters. That’s what I’ve learned.”
-Terry McMillan, published in January's Poets & Writers Magazine

See, this is some straight bullsh_t here. Now, is this why I see some of the crap that I do? Well, I'm a f_cking reader that cares! Now, a lot of these new writers want to send me their stuff. Look, if you haven't read a book that was originally published before Waiting To Exhale, don't bother me. Don't let Terry McMillan get you caught up! A good writer is a good reader. There is no reason why your audience is better read than you the writer. As you can see from the last thread Chris posted, I'm moving around. I suggest you all do the same. Look outside the box. Pick up that book that you think is too hard for you, because I got news for you, it's not too hard. If you have to read a sentence more than once, its still good. Don't just skip over a word you don't know, get a dictionary (or go to the Webster online) and look up the word. There's nothing wrong with building your vocabulary. If you want to be a writer, I would think that you would want to have a huge vocabulary.

When I decided to take my job more seriously, I had to know the principles of writing, which only enhanced my reading. I'm going to recommend two books that were helpful to me, and now that I've finished school, I really dive into them:
1.) The Rhetoric of Fiction by Wayne Booth.
2.) On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Non Fiction.
And for pity sake, visit the library, read the classics. You may not like all of them, but it the exposure that counts. You might run across a book that inspire and influence your writing, which may point the way in you finding your own voice.
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Emanuel
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 06:07 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Look, if you haven't read a book that was originally published before Waiting To Exhale, don't bother me.

AMEN! Not that "Waiting To Exhale" was a bad read. In fact, I found it entertaining. I even went to hear Terry McMillan speak after the book was released. Much like Sistah Souljah's "The Coldest Winter Ever," I found the story interesting but the writing something to be desired. I'm not hating though. Lord knows I'm just an unknown writer with a day job while these women are doing their thing and living the life from it. I'm just saying, I think there is better writing out there. For any writer to grow, I believe they MUST read writers who are better than they are.

The thing is Thumper, I'm not sure those classics we love would sell in today's market. To me, excellent writing can be found in "Invisible Man," "The Sun Also Rises," and "100 Years of Solitude." The brilliant newer books like "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao," and "A Hearbreaking Work of Staggering Genius" are not the norm. Those types of works are probably rejected more than something that may be more commercial, especially if written by a black writer.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Terry McMillan could write that kind of "high brow" stuff if she wanted. She's just smart enough to write what sells without the need to beat us over the head with million dollar words. Traditionally published. Movie deals. On Oprah more than once. That woman knows what she's doing. No wonder so many writers say she is their role model.
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A_womon
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:07 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

and she is a college graduate!
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 10:28 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I’m the sort of writer who thinks your first draft is your most honest.

See, this is some straight bullsh_t here.

(Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsburg would agree with Terry McMillain.

There are different schools of thought in writing. Some think that it should be spontaneous and that the only revision should be for typoes.

Others tend to follow the school that it should be torture and that one should labor over each word and syllable.

Depends on what you are writing. I never have written anything that was as good the first time as it was after some going over. I tend to reallyl sweat over first sentences and paragraphs.

My rule is generally that you need to take as much time as you need to get it right--within limits.

Understand that, taken to its logical extreme, you would never finish anything.

Perfection is impossible.

Didn't your boy Faulkner just turn in some of his manuscripts on the first draft?

As you can see from the last thread Chris posted, I'm moving around.

(You ain't moving around because you ain't reading nothing new)

If you want to be a writer, I would think that you would want to have a huge vocabulary

(Dr Seuss wrote a very successful book using no more than 500 words)

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Terry McMillan could write that kind of "high brow" stuff if she wanted

(She could and did and it didn't go nowhere)

AMEN! Not that "Waiting To Exhale" was a bad read. In fact, I found it entertaining

(I thought it was a work of genius in a way. Here was a book with characters I really didn't care for, with subject matter I might find dull at best and it still pulled me in, primarily because the voices were so entertaining)
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:03 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

and she is a college graduate!

(Let's be more specific

http://aalbc.com/authors/terry.htm


Terry McMillan received her B.A. in Journalism from the University of California at Berkeley, and attended the MFA Film Program at Columbia University. Macmillan's first novel, Mama, published in 1987, received a National Book Award by the Before Columbus Foundation. She has been awarded a 1988 National Endowment for the Arts Fellowship in literature, a 1986 New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowship, and the Doubleday/Columbia University Literary Fellowship. She was a three-time fellow at Yaddo Artist Colony and The MacDowell Colony. She has been a Visiting Professor of English at the University of Wyoming and Stanford University and an Associate Professor of English at the University of Arizona in Tucson

(Now, somebody will wonder why she is writing "trash"

Why is so called Yale Law Professor Stephen Carter writing half ass mysteries?
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Carey
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:29 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The water looks fine I think I'll jump in.


I agree with Thump on a couple of things, Ignorance is the key. Frequently writers simply do not know that their writing and storytelling is terrible, period. If one morning I jumped out of bed and decided to be a writer and looked at the market to see what was poppin', I might say "hey, I can do THAT", then of course the beat goes on.

The highly respected "educated" friend or cousin is another good source of good/terrible books. Yeah, passing the torch of stupidness.

I do however agree with Terry McMillan when she said "just write it". Yet, again, that depends on the fundamental base of the writer. If someone brings nothing to the table they simply can't eat. I am sure she wasn't negating the required preparations such as research, sentence structure and character development. I think she was saying to just write the damn story without get caughtup in trying to write the next big coined phrase.

Some writers remind me of some of my older family members, they have great stories but damn, it takes them forever to get to the point and in some cases there is none.
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Cynique
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:37 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

IMO, there's no perfect formula for writing a book. It all boils down to whatever works - to whatever produces characters who come to life and a story that's compelling. Authors who can effectively incorporate these 2 essentials into their style of writing are the ones who create good reading matter. Some people are natural writers, others have to go to school to learn technique. I'm more impressed with the first kind.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:46 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the key is how the published work comes off to the reader. If it reads like a rough draft, then I am not impressed. (In fact, often I am ticked off!) If it seems rather perfect, and only later I find out it was a first or other very early effort, then I am awed and grateful that the author (or her/his editor) did not tinker with it.
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Thumper
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 07:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello All,

Chris: First off, don't apply my response to just one line for which that reply did NOT apply. My response does not have anything to do with her statement concerning a first draft. I would not give three shakes of a rat's ass about how she does her first draft. Hell, my first drafts are a lu lu themselves. If you are going to take me out of context, at least make it something interesting.

Now, my response was more directed at the "Readers don't care" statement. It may be my fault for not making it clear, and I still stand behind it. In the fine scheme of things, the impression is that the author SHOULD know more about the language than the reader. To a reader, language may be used for enjoyment, or education, or just a part of everyday life. But, it is the writer who is attempting to make a living at it, earn money, or derive a snese of pleasure from the joy of doing it. It is not TOO MUCH to DEMAND that the author knows the language he is attempting to use. When I pay my money to get on the bus, I know damn well that bus driver better by driving that boat a lot better than I would be doing it. When I go to the hospital, that doctor or that nurse BETTER know more about my illness than I do! And so with authors, the same criteria applies, authors BETTER KNOW the language better than I. It's just the natural order of thangs. It is what it is. Know your craft!

Second, you wrote in reply to may statement:

As you can see from the last thread Chris posted, I'm moving around.

(You ain't moving around because you ain't reading nothing new)

Do you need for me to give you the definition to the word "AROUND". I haven't read anything from a new author, but what I am reading is NEW to me. Second, reading just new aint looking around. You may have something against reading older books, but I don't. I can understand, not agree but understand, why many new authors don't want their audience reading older books, books written by authors who unlike McMillian cared who their sentences were constructed and how they connected with one another to form the big picture, because the audience can see where the new authors, many are coming up LACKING, when their books are compared with the older ones. Reading only new authors is restrictive, there's more to the literary world than that, so don't hate me cause you ain't me because I able to do look around, take a chance and read a Latin author, or a French one and you're not. *eyebrow raised*

You wrote: (She could and did and it didn't go nowhere)

She did? *eyeborw raised* What book was this? I read all of her books and this is news to me. I bet its news to her too.

Third, I nowhere implied that you have to be college educated in order to write good books. A college education does not gaurantee that the person is a good writer. My uncle never went to college and that didn't hurt his poetry. But the thing is he remained a student.

You wrote: (Dr Seuss wrote a very successful book using no more than 500 words)

So...what...is there point here somewhere....anywhere? *putting tape on my eyebrow to keep it up*

Emanuel: you wrote, The thing is Thumper, I'm not sure those classics we love would sell in today's market. To me, excellent writing can be found in "Invisible Man," "The Sun Also Rises," and "100 Years of Solitude." The brilliant newer books like "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao," and "A Hearbreaking Work of Staggering Genius" are not the norm. Those types of works are probably rejected more than something that may be more commercial, especially if written by a black writer.

Emanuel, but the classics are selling. How would we have had the opportunity to read them if they were not still being published? the aspect of writing or being published that many new authors forget or don't know is that your work may not sell until AFTER you are old or dead. Faulkner is still being bought or checked out at the library and read. Every year, I get a residual check from my uncle's estate from his works. He's been dead what 16 or 17 years now. If the writer's attitude is just getting paid right now (and believe me I dont have a problem with that) and so they'll just put anything out there, who's going to be around 5, 10, 15 years from now to pick up their book because there's nothing extraordinary or even adequate about the writing? It is that type of writing that time will not be kind to.

Cynique: you wrote, Some people are natural writers, others have to go to school to learn technique. I'm more impressed with the first kind.

Me too! Point in case. I recently wrote a review of Judge Greg Mathis new book, due out in September. It's a good book. I watch his show and have heard him tell stories and he's good at it. I had no doubt that his book would be good. He didn't use those Faulkner/Morrison type sentences, he didn't need too. The story was there and it was simply told...with no typos or grammatical errors or any of that other crap that's been allow to pass.
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Ferociouskitty
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Posted on Monday, August 18, 2008 - 11:20 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dang, Thump! You had me thinking Mat had Niggerati Manor up and running again. ;-) But at least we still have the archives...

Yvette and Cynique, I agree wholeheartedly. I really do think it depends on the book--either the characters and story are compelling, or they're not. I don't care how the writer got there, just as long as she gets there.

Cynique, what you said about "natural writers" vs. the schooled kind reminded me of a Flannery O'Connor quote:

Everywhere I go, I'm asked if I think the universities stifle writers. My opinion is that they don't stifle enough of them. There's many a best seller that could have been prevented by a good teacher.
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 02:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Most readers don’t care

(That's what she said. Emphasis on the MOST. I defy you to disprove that statement. I would daresay that large numbers of readers, especially of the Oprah variety, just buy those books and leave them out on their coffee tables so they'll look like they know whats happenin)

but what I am reading is NEW to me.

(I reiterate. You should have already read Ovid and the other authors you listed. They have been available for a couple thousand years, is all)

You may have something against reading older books, but I don't.

(I read old books all the time. Read the King James Version of the Bible almost daily. But King James don't need no more publicity. He's everywhere. Everybody already knows about King James. Let's hear about somebody new doing something)

You wrote: (She could and did and it didn't go nowhere)

She did? *eyeborw raised* What book was this? I read all of her books and this is news to me. I bet its news to her too.


(Now Thumper. You are not about to assert that the books Terry wrote before "Exhale" sold like it did. Do you want me to dig out the sales figures? I don't have to do that, do I?

You wrote: (Dr Seuss wrote a very successful book using no more than 500 words)

So...what...is there point here somewhere....anywhere? *putting tape on my eyebrow to keep it up*

(Is your eyebrow still up? I repeat

Dr Seuss wrote a very successful book using no more than 500 words)

the aspect of writing or being published that many new authors forget or don't know is that your work may not sell until AFTER you are old or dead.

(There is a gospel song, which I believe that you are familiar with since you are a Christian gentleman, that goes, "Give me my flowers right now while I can see them"

Twain, Dickens, Hemingway, Wright all enjoyed great popularity and recompense of reward while they were alive.

Who gives a damn what anybody thinks once we are in the ground?)
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Cynique
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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 03:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"(I read old books all the time. Read the King James Version of the Bible almost daily. But King James don't need no more publicity. He's everywhere. Everybody already knows about King James. Let's hear about somebody new doing something

Isn't it just amazing that while ruling England, King James also managed to re-vamp the bible. He must've really been a good writer.


"Who gives a damn what anybody thinks once we are in the ground?"

Achieving acclaim after death is what's known as a legacy. All authors should be so lucky.
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Thumper
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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:29 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello All,

Chris: You asked for it!

You wrote: "(That's what she said. Emphasis on the MOST. I defy you to disprove that statement. I would daresay that large numbers of readers, especially of the Oprah variety, just buy those books and leave them out on their coffee tables so they'll look like they know whats happenin) "

How in the Hell does she know that or you for that matter? All McMillan can testify to is to what SHE cares about when she's reading. She don't know me to say anything on that tip. Nor can she speak for anyone else. The fact that she said it is probably more of a slam against the people that reads her sh_t! Maybe those are the people that she feel she has certain grounds in which to say that. Second, as far as the Oprah variety type readers go, Hell McMillian aint the Oprah variety type author either. So, I don't see NOBODY faking the funk as far as trying to impress people by having her books out their coffee table, unread, just to impress somebody. It damn sho aint that type of party as far as McMillan goes.

You wrote: (I reiterate. You should have already read Ovid and the other authors you listed. They have been available for a couple thousand years, is all)

Yeah, but I didn't. Is there a problem with that? *eyebrow raised* If there is, its your problem to have and not mine.

This one is another example of you having a Republican moment; You wrote: (She could and did and it didn't go nowhere)

She did? *eyeborw raised* What book was this? I read all of her books and this is news to me. I bet its news to her too.


(Now Thumper. You are not about to assert that the books Terry wrote before "Exhale" sold like it did. Do you want me to dig out the sales figures? I don't have to do that, do I? "

Chris, for pity sake pay attention. My response was in response to you saying that McMillian wrote high brow stuff that did not sell. I said, I read her books before Exhale...WHO IN THE HELL SAID THOSE BOOKS WERE HIGH BROW!?! Whether they sold or not back then, they are selling now. But even with all that, those books are not high brow, and if you think they are...*eyebrow raised*...well....

You wrote: "You wrote: (Dr Seuss wrote a very successful book using no more than 500 words)

So...what...is there point here somewhere....anywhere? *putting tape on my eyebrow to keep it up*

(Is your eyebrow still up? I repeat

Dr Seuss wrote a very successful book using no more than 500 words)"

And one more time for the people in the back...SO...Is there a point? *eyebrow still raised...OK, Mary had a little lamb...Now what!?

You wrote; "(There is a gospel song, which I believe that you are familiar with since you are a Christian gentleman, that goes, "Give me my flowers right now while I can see them"

Twain, Dickens, Hemingway, Wright all enjoyed great popularity and recompense of reward while they were alive.

Who gives a damn what anybody thinks once we are in the ground?)"

Uh, Chris, they're called HEIRS!

You wrote: "(I read old books all the time. Read the King James Version of the Bible almost daily. But King James don't need no more publicity. He's everywhere. Everybody already knows about King James. Let's hear about somebody new doing something)"

OK, Let's hear it! Speak on the new authors, by brother, you have the floor.
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Carey
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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 06:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't hurt him Thump.
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Thumper
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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 07:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello,

Carey: He gonna make me cut 'im! *LOL* Chris knows that I'm diabetical and right now I'm trying to cut a hole in my house shoes where that corn on my right pinkie toe is! *looking around the room* I know I aint the only one....*LMAO* Just kidding, I aint going to hurt Chris...much...you know I love him like a play cousin...twice removed. *LOL*
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Carey
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Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 07:37 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi

Okay Thump, I was concerned cus you know people are looking and they got laws against premedatated murder. Chris is my boy as well so I just didn't want you to scuff him up to much. But you know sometimes ya gotta get that ass, so do what you do but take it easy on him, he's family.

Spend some of that money and buy a bigger pair of slippers...you need to be ashamed of yourself *lol*. But ahhh....**I hope nobody is looking**...I just cut the whole front part right out...yes sir....Slipper Shoes :-)... the neighbors know.
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Chrishayden
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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:48 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris knows that I'm diabetical and right now I'm trying to cut a hole in my house shoes where that corn on my right pinkie toe is!

(Carey is right. Buy bigger slippers or do away with them alltogether and wear socks.

Also you gonna have to lose some of that 300 lbs of Heavenly joy and excercise, too.
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Carey
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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh no, Chris done cut the man. Thump, don't tell me you done put down the Splenda?

No Chris, say it ain't so, Thump done got so fat his feet is swellin' *lol*.
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Thumper
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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 02:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hello All,

Chris: Heavenly joy is right! I'm glad to see that you already know. Andit is selfish of me to have so much of it, while other folks, *eyebrow raised, looking dead at you* have so little. I can't help that, its a cross I have to bear. Dont hate me cause you aint me. Anyway, I don't know what you talkin about, I got just enough fat to f__k.
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Carey
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Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:18 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

*LOL* Thumper!!! Don't let Chris take you there *smile*. See, I knew something was about to break but ahhh to fat to...... or was it fat enough? Anyway, it's time for you boys to slow-up.....damn *lol*.

Excuse us folks, just a few family friends gettin' together for a couple of drinks...**hiding the rest of the booze**
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Ferociouskitty
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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:21 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It never ceases to amaze me where these conversations end up. They start innocently enough:

"...While I was going to school, I would stop by and read a few of Mat's blogs..."

...and yet inevitably we end up here:

"I got just enough fat to f__k."

Not complaining...just in awe. Carey, I bet you could do one of those analyses like you did with names and thread titles. It would be fascinating! ;-)
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Carey
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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:40 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kitty, you should be a manager or agent!!!

Your post only had me LMAO....several times.

*lol* See, even though Thump's post actually started that way I could just see two people skipping along to school, you know, maybe a boy and a girl. Then one pulls out a comic book and starts talking about it and then BAM....the other says, "I got just enough fat to f__k"....crazy, ThumpersCorner can be a great place for laughs! ;-)

Stop it, Kitty. You know it doesn't take much to jump-start my silly side......ummmmmm, the possibilities **BIG Grin**
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Yukio
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Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 07:48 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think there are different kinds of writing for different audiences. In school, i think its important that were are taught the literary elements and canonical themes that run through different traditions, so we can appreciate the more, lets say, artistic elements and cultural themes, of writing as well as good old-fashioned storytelling.

No.

TM, black women's pop. lit, and the more recent street lit. tend to not embrace the artistic and cultural elements of literary writing.
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Nom_de_plume
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Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 06:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Got my new Poets & Writers yesterday and I'm so glad to see this piece is online because it goes along well with what you all are discussing in terms of genre bending and fusing. Another good read!

Uhmmm...why can't I paste on here sometimes?

Anyway, here is the piece:

http://pw.org/content/invasion_genre_snatchers
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 12:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great article, Nom--Thanks for posting it. I, for one, am happy about this intentional blurring between "high" and "low" brow.
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Nom_de_plume
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Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 06:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome! Also in this issue was the announcement of John Edgar Wideman winning the Katherine Anne Porter Award from the American Academy of Arts & Letters, given to honor the achievements of a prose writers.

TWENTY THOUSAND dollar prize. I just picked up his collections Fever and God's Gym the other week.

I'm so happy for him!

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