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904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 04:48 pm: | 
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Okay, I've been checking around and it seems that self-publishing will cost from $12,000 to $30,000!!!!! Am I just looking at the wrong websites? Guess this means I'll keep sending it out to those Literary Agencies, lol. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 584
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 05:47 pm: |
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It all depends on the number of books you plan on getting printed. Large print runs (say, 1000 or more books) generally cost $1 to $3 per book. Smaller runs may cost a bit more per book. If you go to a printer like Lightning Source (www.lightningsource.com), it'll probably cost you somewhere between $4 to $6 per book but there is no minumum order. They use on demand technology, so you can order as few books or as many books as you need.
Your other costs will include graphic design for your cover, a professional edit, and ISBN #S. And that's just to get the books printed; we haven't even gotten into marketing. Self publishing can be a significant cost with little return on investment if you don't market and sell your book.
Best thing to do is keep submitting to those literary agents and to those publishers. Having someone else pay for the printing of your books will give you a leg up in the industry (distribution, mainstream acceptance, and maybe a small advance on royalites). Plus you can spend your money on marketing yourself instead of on the production of books. Use self publishing as a last resort. It is exremely overglorified! Set a timeframe for yourself to determine how many months or years you will wait to get your book published. Polish your writing skills. Use constructive criticism from literary agents to grow and make changes to your manuscript because they know what they can sell.
You can also find literary agents and publishers at events like writers workshops. There you can pitch your manuscript directly to agents and publishers face to face. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 585
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 06:59 pm: |
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Sorry about the "extremely" typo.
I don't know where you live but here are some of the conferences I was referring to:
www.authorsoftheflathead.org
www.mauiwriters.com
www.myscww.org
www.ssa-az.org
Regarding self publishing, just keep in mind that if your goal is to eventually get a traditional deal, the conversation about how well or how poorly you did with self-pubbing is bound to come up. It can be a slippery slope. One day you're self-publishing with the goal of getting a deal. The next thing you know, you're self publishing your 10th novel. |
904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 08:23 pm: |
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Thanks bunches! Makes sense. I'm a first-timer so I'm looking into all of the options.
I'll definitely keep it up with the literary agents... I've only been looking for a few weeks.
I'll also look for writers workshops.
Thanks again! |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 586
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 10:51 am: |
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For more insight on why self publishing may not be a great avenue to take, check out this post by Maurice Broaddus over at Blogging in Black: http://blogginginblack.com/?p=915 |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7118
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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The amount of money, though large, is nothing compared to the amount of time you will have to put in--you will have to be your own distributor, sales force, advertiser, booker (for personal appearances) etc etc.
It really will show how much you believe in the work, though. |
904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 02:14 pm: |
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You all don't know how much this has helped me. I got so caught up, I forgot why I was writing! I don't want to just get published. I believe I have a great book and want it to succeed. So, I'll keep pounding the pavement until I can find a literary agent that will do me right.
Thanks bunches! |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 85
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 09:41 pm: |
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That is too much money. iUniverse has packages from a few hundred dollars to around $1,200 or so for higher end services. You are looking at the wrong sites and companies.
www.DTPollard.com |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 587
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 12:11 am: |
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Before you turn to ANY non-traditional publishing (subsidy or self publishing), you should first:
1. Make sure your manuscript is submission ready. Seek advice from a professional editor, an English professor, or a writers group.
2. Master the query letter. Again, some professional editors will help you with this as well. Plus there are tons of books out there on how to write a good query.
3. Get a copy of The Writer's Market here: http://aalbc.com/cgi/aalbcamazonproductsfeed.cgi?Operation=ItemLookup&ItemId=158 2975418
The latest one just came out a couple of weeks ago.
4. Submit to literary agents and directly to publishers that will accept unagented submissions like Soho Press. Pitch at conferences and workshops too if there is a literary agent there taking appointments and has a history of selling manuscripts in your genre.
5. Expect lots and lots rejection letters, and don't take it personally. Learn from the ones that offer advice. Toss the form letters. Revise, revise, and revise. If they're all form letters, go back to #1.
6. Seek advice from an author who is where you want to be. You will be surprised at the information many traditionally published authors will share with you.
If this fails and you just run out of patience, then you might want to consider non-traditional publishing (sometimes writing is good but not marketable in a publisher's or agent's eyes) or you might want to spend some time mastering the craft of writing and writing something more saleable. Quite a few authors suggest spending the money you would have spent on non-traditional publishing on writing classes instead, even degree progams.
You could have a book out tomorrow through non-traditional publishing so there's no need to rush to it. That option will always be there if you desire it. Will it help you in attaining your goal though? Depends on your goal. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2329
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 01:43 am: |
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I totally agree with Emanuel. Though I'm not knocking those who self publish, while I won't say it's the easy way out, it does circumvent the process of learning the craft of writing.
There is so much more to the process than typing up a story and paying someone to print it for you. Yes, rejection is part of the process, but make it work for you, not against you. Publishers, and editors are always looking for new writers, if they weren't how could they stay in business? Study your market, just like any other business, know your competition and stay in the game.
Yes most first time novelist who land a contract with major publisher do have to work to get their novels in the public eye and sometimes it is just as hard as the self publisher. But what the self publisher doesn't have is the power behind their books that a major publisher can give you.
For one thing,the major publisher has the power to distribute your book nationwide in ways that you can't. Where the self publisher must pay a distributor to do SOME distribution, he will not reach the markets/outlets that a major publisher can. You have the major publisher pushing to make your book a success because they don't want to lose money on their investment, while the self publisher must rely soley on his own efforts and ability to market, promote, and sell his book.
So please understand that self publishing is nowhere near the same as landing a major publisher. If it were, would those who self publish still seek out and accept contract offers from major publishers? Think about it.
There are many other benefits that are too numerous to mention here.
I agree with Emanuel that self publishing should really be a last resort. |
904diva
Regular Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 11:31 am: |
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I have ordered the Writers Market and am awaiting that to arrive now. What I would like to find out is where can I find someone to review my book. Sure, I think it's great, family and friends think it's great, but I know what I need is a totally unbaised opinion. I can't even find any writers groups where I live (Jacksonville, FL) or maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.
I'm sure there are people you pay to review or critique your book... where can I find those people and what is the price range I should pay?
Also I'm a first time writer, I do have an administrative background so feel pretty good about the grammar, spelling, etc. I just want someone I don't know to tell me if I have a good book or if it sucks, lol. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 588
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 12:10 pm: |
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Before you pay anyone to review your manuscript (don't call it a book just yet), you should exhaust all of the free resources at your disposal. Go to your local library and ask about writers groups in the area. Go to your local universities & community colleges and see if their English departments can help you. Or find one writer you can trust to be 100% honest who has the time to be a mentor or critique partner. You can probably find one in online writer groups like Yahoo! Groups.
If you pay anyone, you might want to consider a professional editor. They are known for overpricing so make sure you're comfortable with their rates AND they have decent credentials. There are many many sharks out there. Ask them what published authors they've helped in the past.
If you submit enough to literary agents and publishers, you will get a critique from those who matter most. Be very careful of critiques from those who are not in the publishing industry, including family and friends. Remember, you're trying to sell a manuscript not cater to family and friends.
Get the deal first and then worry about if it's good. The process will help you find out. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 08:19 pm: |
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Playing devils advocate for a moment (well partically):
Do the benefits of being published by a major publisher always outweight self-publishing?
15 years ago the answer may have been obvious today I do not so sure.
Consider;
Some authors of major house get 4 figure advances. Some of these will not earn out...
Most authors complain that major publishers do not do enough to promote their books.
Self published authors keep a larger percentage of book profits.
I could raise many more points but at the end of the day, I'm not sure what a major publisher can offer a self publsihed author that they can not provide for themselves.
Just playing devils advocate ;-) |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2330
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 09:31 pm: |
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Troy
I answered your question when I posed this one:
If self publishing is as good as being traditionally published why do the VAST MAJORITY of even the most successful self publishers, -see the mega successful RELENTless AAron- Who though he was selling thousands of books still accepted a contract with a major publisher? This story is repeated over and over again.
How come? |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 590
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 10:37 pm: |
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I can make some pretty good arguments for self publishing:
1. You've been burned by a traditional publisher that did not pay you your royalties and you'll never trust another one again.
2. Having your book published is not about getting the most sales possible or the most exposure possible. (For example, a book written by a motivational speaker who sells seminars for $1000 per event. Of course, the goal of the book is to prove expertise and give a credential to sell the seminar. )
3. You have 6 months to live and becoming an author before you die is on your list of things to do before you bite the bullet.
4. You are true trailblazer, and you know a traditional publisher won't even touch your work.
5. You are filthy rich, so promoting your own work is no sweat.
6. Zane, Relentless Aaron, and Karen Quinones Miller started off with self publishing. Perhaps they may have never been discovered and never got their traditional deals had they not taken matters into their own hands. If it worked for them...
I think all fiction deserves a shot at trying the traditional route before turning to non-traditional publishing. I personally self-pubbed my debut novel after receiving a couple of handfuls of rejection letters. I wish I would have continued submitting, revising, and being more patient. Both a literary agent AND a professional editor gave me some excellent advice after it was too late.
My last book, a nonfiction business title, was also self-pubbed for something more in line with reason #2. I'm happy with the results of that one.
A_womon: Your answer is exactly right. |
Afrika
Veteran Poster
Username: Afrika
Post Number: 116
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 06:17 am: |
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Greetings,
I agree with everyone.
You might want to check out these links if you have done so already. See below.
http://www.go-publish-yourself.com/cost-of-self-publishing.php
http://www.publishingbasics.com/2007/01/03/how-much-does-it-cost-to-self-publish -a-book/
www.llumina.com/prices.htm
www.writing-world.com/publish/subsidy.shtml
Hope that helps.
Peace
Afrika Midnight Asha Abney |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 314
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 09:00 am: |
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I have ordered the Writers Market and am awaiting that to arrive now. What I would like to find out is where can I find someone to review my book. Sure, I think it's great, family and friends think it's great, but I know what I need is a totally unbaised opinion. I can't even find any writers groups where I live (Jacksonville, FL) or maybe I'm looking in the wrong places.
Hi, Diva. I would caution you about the print version of Writer's Market. You figure, by the time the book gets published, some of the contact info and other specifics have changed. I would use it as a guide, but then verify every contact by searching online. In fact, I believe you can subscribe to an online version of Writers Market. I can't vouch for how often it is updated, but it should certainly be as or more current than the print edition.
Finally, I'm a native of Jacksonville, FL (Duval!!!), but I don't know of any writers groups there. The only writer I know there is my 6th grade teacher who is working on her memoirs, but I don't think she's part of a group, but I will ask her next time we are in touch. Have you considered finding an online group, or taking an online writing class? I took a class and met a few good critique buddies that way.
Good luck! |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 87
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 09:47 am: |
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"Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 09:31 pm:
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Troy
I answered your question when I posed this one:
If self publishing is as good as being traditionally published why do the VAST MAJORITY of even the most successful self publishers, -see the mega successful RELENTless AAron- Who though he was selling thousands of books still accepted a contract with a major publisher? This story is repeated over and over again.
How come?"
One does not preclude the other.
I am both. Self in paper, traditional in audio.
www.DTPollard.com |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 591
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 10:51 am: |
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Hey DT,
I definitely don't want to ignore the success you've had with iUniverse. Essence Bestseller, Traditional Audio Deal. Excellent Reviews. All great things. Certainly more success than I've had.
Believe me, I've heard from a few authors who've had success with subsidy publishing that lead to bigger and better things, including traditional deals with mainstream publishers.
I just believe starting with non-traditional publishing leads to more of an uphill battle if your goal is to get a traditional book deal. There are far too many who are unsuccessful with it than there are successful. Of course, they are not as vocal as the successful ones unless they've been scammed or something. After all, who is going to boast about only selling 50 or so books?
And again, it's all about your own personal goals. 904Diva's publishing goals may be different than yours, mine, or anyone else's on this board. I'm probably the last person who should be dispensing advice but I think of it as helping those avoid the mistakes I made in the industry. I have lots to learn myself. |
904diva
Regular Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 11:49 am: |
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I appreciate everyone's advice because you all have traveled the road that I am now traveling. And I do agree, I should at least give it my all with traditional publishing before venturing into self-publishing because I haven't really even tried.
I had a story inside me that I wanted to tell. I told it, only to find that was the easy part... the hard part is getting published!
Critique's and reviews, I rather them come from someone who is going to understand my story... "sistagirl style". I'm guessing if a person is a agent/publisher, they'll get all genre of books... hopefully!
So thanks all... I really do appreciate everyone for your input. That's for helping a sista out!
To Ferociouskitty -- hey homegirl (Duuvvaaaall!) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12413
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 11:58 am: |
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Lemme know if any of this advice works, - so I can try it.  |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 592
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 12:36 pm: |
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904Diva,
I think you might find this interview helpful in regards to finding an independent editor: http://blogginginblack.com/?p=757. The subject of the interview may be just the type of person you need. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1407
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 04:18 pm: |
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Awoman, some people self publish with the GOAL of being published by a major publisher. If a self published authors goes on to sell 5,000 copies of their own book. They we be looked at very seriously by major houses.
This is not a hard and fast rule but anyone with the platform to do this has to be seriously considered.
Also consider the fact that good writers often self publish AFTER being published by a major house.
Also I was not trying to suggest that being published by a major house is "better" than being self published: they simply are two approaches to the same outcome (a physcial book).
I think the biggest disadvantage with self-publishing today is perception, and a book industry (all the stuff that happens between the author and the reader) that is antiquated; failing to adequately accomodate self publisihed authors. Both are temporary conditions.
One can argue that books published by a major house helps one cut through all the crap that is published. Increasingly this mode of thinking is becoming outdated.
Major house publish books that are medicore (if not down right bad) and there are good (if not great) self published books.
At the end of the day, a good self published book can bring the same editorial, creative, and marketing strength of any of the majors houses. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2331
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 05:58 pm: |
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At the end of the day, a good self published book can bring the same editorial, creative, and marketing strength of any of the majors houses.
Sorry Troy, I strongly disagree. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of publishing,I'm still learning each and every day. but I do know what my experience and journey has been since I set out to get published traditionally four years ago, and I can speak from that.
I also have since recieved advice from some of the biggest authors in the business and without fail they have ALL advised me to self publish as a last resort. A couple of these authors had themselves started out as self published authors.
On what do you base your beliefs that the views on self publishing are outdated?
Hen81
I never once posted that one precludes the other. Neither does your statement address the question I posed. In fact you actually proved my question with your acceptance of your traditional deal. If you're so pro self publishing, why did you take the traditional audio deal? And may I ask if your deal was with one of the major houses?
Would you turn down a contract offer from a traditional publisher, who you seem to want to disparage at every turn?
Just wondering... |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 594
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 08:18 pm: |
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One can argue that books published by a major house helps one cut through all the crap that is published. Increasingly this mode of thinking is becoming outdated.
Speaking mostly on the fiction side, I gotta disagree with you on this one Troy. When all it takes to have a book printed is a check in hand, non-traditional publishing will never catch up with traditional publishing in terms of quality. There are some saavy non-traditionally published authors who are smart enough to get their work edited before going to print or who are just naturals and don't need it. But from a reviewer standpoint, my defenses are up when I have to review a non-traditionally published book because many are still poorly edited (plot, structure, grammar, and punctuation). Why? Because a lot of independent editors or subsidy publishers that offer editing services gauge the crap out of authors. Therefore, they skip this process and hope their eyes and spellcheck will be good enough.
Traditional publishers are not going to let a poorly edited book to go print because they want to earn their profits. Many stop this by only accepting agented manuscripts. Others work diligently with authors. Sure some of the books may be sub-par, boring, predictable, or even horrible but it's rarely because of editing. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 89
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 09:07 pm: |
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"At the end of the day, a good self published book can bring the same editorial, creative, and marketing strength of any of the majors houses.
Sorry Troy, I strongly disagree. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of publishing,I'm still learning each and every day. but I do know what my experience and journey has been since I set out to get published traditionally four years ago, and I can speak from that.
I also have since recieved advice from some of the biggest authors in the business and without fail they have ALL advised me to self publish as a last resort. A couple of these authors had themselves started out as self published authors.
On what do you base your beliefs that the views on self publishing are outdated?
Hen81
I never once posted that one precludes the other. Neither does your statement address the question I posed. In fact you actually proved my question with your acceptance of your traditional deal. If you're so pro self publishing, why did you take the traditional audio deal? And may I ask if your deal was with one of the major houses?
Would you turn down a contract offer from a traditional publisher, who you seem to want to disparage at every turn?
Just wondering..."
A_Woman
My audio book deal came in the form of an email from Recorded Books, LLC., the same company that publishes unabridged audio books of Carl Webber and others. This is the text of the email:
Subject:
Audio Inquiry
From:
Date: Fri, Oct 05, 2007 9:37 am
To: <dtpollard@dtpollard.com>
Mr. Pollard,
I represent Recorded Books, the world’s largest publisher of unabridged audio books. We also produce an audio imprint in libraries called Griot Audio, the only dedicated African-American audio publisher in the industry, which features Essence best-selling authors like Travis Hunter, Carl Weber, RM Johnson, and Mary Monroe.
Having fielded several librarian requests, I am interested in acquiring audio rights to ROOFTOP DIVA.
I look forward to hearing from you.
That is exactly how the audio deal started, an unsolicted request. I replied, reviewed the contract, negotiated a few changes and signed. Selling my audio rights had not crossed my mind but seemed to be a great way to reach a different audience and build name recognition. This deal came form my penetration into the library market.
I have nothing against traditional publishing and would look at a traditional deal with the right publisher. There are some traditional deals out there that bear very little difference from self-publishing in terms of support and exposure, except you have signed over your rights. I just met an author that had a two book deal and was released. That author self publish the third book in the series.
The only issue that I have is when opinions start with a point of view of the inherent superiority of tradionally published books over self-published. While there is a high probability that most books from tradional publishing houses will be better edited, it does not speak to the storyline or gifts of the author. Most books are selected for sales potential and that sometime means what's popular over the better story.
I don't disparage big publishers at every turn and always speak pro self publishing. I simply point out options in self publishing, not over traditional publishing. I believe in one of my posts in this thread that self-publishing was one option and submitting to agents/publishers was another, just be patient.
Let's be clear, "most" people don't get accepted by agents or publishers. The question is what does the author want. Sometimes wanting it still does not make it happen. Another question is how long does the author want to wait for acceptance. When does someone decide if it has been too long? If an author can't get that deal, what are their options, stop and mothball their manuscript or seek another route. Some authors have tried for 1 year, 5 years or 10 years. Some strike gold right away, some hit later and some after death. These are all individual decisions except the after death part.
I self-published right away. I did no other submissions because of my view on what I wanted to do with my books and the timing I wanted for release. I am a professional salesman by trade and have a measured level of patience.
To each their own.
www.DTPollard.com |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 08:26 am: |
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A_womon someone who knows what they are doing can produce a book with the same quality as one published by a major house. You can strongly diagree with it but this is simply a statement of fact...
I'm not saying that YOU or anyone else SHOULD self-publish over having their book published by a major.
My premise (no longer playing devils advocate) is that one should not dismiss the benefits of self publishing and the book produced can be equivalent to one publshed by a major house. Again, this is a fact. Because it has happened.
Gloria Mallette (Thumper raves about this author) self published her latest book. Lynnette Khalifani (of Oprah fame) makes a ton of money publishing her own books. Jessica Care Moore-Poole always published her own books and ultimately published the books of other authors. People Richard Jenty, Crystal Lacey Winslow have followed suit pubishing the own books and those of other authors.
Here is one example Tresure Blue self published his first book and sold 65,000 copies he said he made more money than he ever saw in his life. He sold the rights to a major but he understands the financial benefits of self publishing.
Awoman, I can go on for days...
Emanuel, it is kinda of funny you say you disagree but then you go on to support my point. Answer this question: Can an author with sufficent talent and financial resources (for editing cover design, etc) self-publish a book which would past muster with a traditional house?
Obviously most self-published authors don't do this, but that is not an inidctment on self-publishing -- just those authors.
Hen81, I could not have said it better myself. You can drop the quotes around "most". It is also a fact that most books looking to be published by a major house are rejected. I've spoken with enough frustrated agents to also know that many of these books are quite good too.
You also make a good point about a publisher selling books based upon sales potential.
Now if you do not have the financial resources to pay for editting, marketing, design, then you can not effectively self-publish.
In that case, you'll defintely need someone else to risk capital to publish your book for you. That by the way is all a publisher does invest capital in the anticipation of reaping a profit. Needless to say there is a trade-off the author must make for that risk...
Today technoloy has made it much easier to an authors to take on this risk becuase the the downside risk has been greatly reduced and the difficulty of distribution is largely and issue of the past.
Services like I-universe (or whatever it is called now) further reduces this risk, but there are trade-off there as well.
At the end of the day we are all better of with more optional today than ever before. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 595
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 10:03 am: |
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Yes, self publishing can definitely yield a professional-looking book that reads well. I have read many of them that were even superior to traditionally published books. I have even dogged traditionally published books in my reviews, some I couldn't even finish.
Does the typical author who self publishes have the talent to write a decent book? I don't think so. Does the typical author who self publishes even think about or plan on how he will market and sell his book or even have the money to do so after paying for the cost of publication? Not really.
Will a subsidy publisher take your money to print a book regardless of talent or editing issues? Yup. Even the owner of LuLu has been quoted saying the majority of books they print are crap (http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6465530.html?q=bob+young). Why? Because the majority of self published authors publish poorly-written first drafts at best.
The Zanes, Relentless Aarons, and Gloria Mallettes of the world are atypical. We can bring up their successes all day but again, you won't hear from the majority of self-pubbed authors whose sales are minimal. What percentage do they represent? I read somewhere that Bowker reports that nearly 2 out of 4 books are self published these days. That's probably somewhere in the millions per year. Are we hearing about the successes of those books?
I guess we need to define what distribution means. Last I heard, the major chains were not stocking subsidy published books on a national level (some have specific policies not to do so), and only a few self-pubbed or small press books (not including local authors who can convince local chain managers to stock their books, even if it's on consignment). Sure some people buy online but many still want to walk into a bookstore they know and make a purchase. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12419
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 11:05 am: |
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For those who like a challenge, then self-publishing offers one. For those who seek validation, then traditional publishing provides it.  |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1413
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 12:56 pm: |
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Emanuel, again "...but that is not an inidctment on self-publishing -- just those authors."
The Zanes, Relentless Aarons, and Gloria Mallettes would have been atypical 15 years ago -- maybe. But today they are indeed typical - and becoming more so. If I had the time I could EASILY run off the names of 100 self published authors with decent books and respectable sales. "Decent" and "Respectable Sales" are subjective and relative terms, but I'm sure you get my point...
Consider even authors like DT Pollard, Kevin Weeks, Hickson, persia Walker (yourself for that matter) -- authors I'm sure you heard of and for good reason: they know that they are doing. Awarness does not equal sales or mean a good book, but you'll never read a book that you are not aware exists.
Cynique, the essence of what I'm talking about is in your last comment and that is "Validation".
Many people are still walking around believing that we need the validation of a major publisher.
This is a flawed and limiting paradigm -- and I fully appreciate that the majority of us feel this way.
The number of small independent publishers will continue to increase. Over time as these "presses" will be recognized for the quality of the books they produce. The stigma of be "self published" will continue to diminish.
Indeed authors may seek out one of the growing number of the smaller independents whot have a better understanding of their market.
The industry will continue to converge on to better serve these smaller or individual publishers.
Eventually publications like the NY Times will HAVE to review some of these books. If they don't some other enttity will (to neet the growing demand - AALBC.com has been reviewing self published books for years).
Indeed AALBC.com will ultimately be looking to risk captial (invest) in the publication of a book... There are too many good books going unpublished this of course means a business opportunity. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2332
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:14 pm: |
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Anyway Troy,
We could debate this issue for years and still not come up with something that is definitive when the question is asked which is the better route to take.
I am entitled to my opinion on this as are you and anyone else. Doesn't make either one of us wrong or right.
You posted that Treasure E. Blue sold 65,000 books but STILL TOOK A TRADITIONAL CONTRACT. Why is this? You still didn't answer that question. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2333
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:17 pm: |
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I wish that an author such as Treasure E. would come on the boards and set the record straight on the reasons that successful self publishers take traditional deals when offered, because I'd really like to know. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 596
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:25 pm: |
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Karen Quinones Miller has spoken to my writers group in person about her transition from self publishing to traditional publishing. The main reason, as I recall, was royalties and advances on those royalties followed by distribution, and the ability to focus soley on writing instead of being publisher/shipper/etc. It's much better to get paid to write than to pay someone to print your books.
Check out Karen's site here for more info: http://www.karenequinonesmiller.com/Help%20Getting%20Pub.htm |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 91
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:27 pm: |
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Guys the botton line is that no one can control whether they become traditionally published. Authors can't determine if they get an agent. This is where I have issues with some that compare self-publishing to conventional publishing. Both are routes to pursue. One the author can control and the other the author does not. To say don't self-publish, but go traditional, places both options out there as if the ability to go either way was equal. We KNOW that the road to traditional is typically a much longer one, if it ever happens at all. I have heard all of the refine, rewrite, edit, conferences etc., even with that, some never get that acceptance letter.
I see it as positive that people can get their work out to market. These books may never become bestsellers but it creates an environment of less frustration by someone seeing their work in print. There may be a secondary frustration if their sales or reviews don't pan out. I feel that the second letdown is better because it comes after an effort has been made. If the author decides to not pursue writing any further, it won't be because they never got past first base. Secondly they may try again and pursue traditional. There would not be a boom in self-publishing if traditional publishers accepted every manuscript. We all know that is not going to happen. Technology has opened the options up for people to place their work into the market.
Look at the music industry. The same thing is going on. Every act is not going to get a record deal. Digital technology allows independent songs to be uploaded for purchase just like any other songs out there. I don't hear the level of noise from the recording industry as I do from the book industry. The garage band that cuts a demo cd, the hot regional band and the independent author should all be embraced. They actually push the envelope on what moves into the mainstream.
Mike Jones, Master P. the book Eragon, Zane, etc. all started outside of traditional systems and worked their way into the corporate culture.
If traditional is what an author wants to pursue they should do so. If for whatever reasons an author chooses to self-publish they have that option. The bottom line is this question, would a New York Times bestseller be a worse book if it was word for word self-published or subsidy published. I say the answer is no. It simply won't sell as many copies given the structure of the business.
www.DTPollard.com |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 92
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:50 pm: |
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Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 01:17 pm:
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I wish that an author such as Treasure E. would come on the boards and set the record straight on the reasons that successful self publishers take traditional deals when offered, because I'd really like to know.
A_woman, I work for a living doing something other than writing. If a traditional publisher offered a deal that would replace my income from writing books, I would seriously look at it.
Right now, my books are a sideline. Full time I could crank out maybe three books per year, maybe more. That is only dealing with writing and appearances. Marketing, distribution etc. being handled by a publisher is a plus.
I really don't know if a deal where I got a few thousand advance, two book deal and I still had to keep my full time job would be worth it. I have seen too many with that kind of deal end up dropped and back where they started and in the hole financially because that advance was it. They had to shoulder all promotion, tour and other expenses out of that advance. Their full time jobs didn't allow enough time for successful promotion to really push the books beyond their midlist status.
End result was they don't own the rights to the books contracted to the pubisher and they either self-publish the next book or find a new publisher. Many of those author signings are part of a publisher's long tail strategy. Low risk, low investment but the aggregate volume is profitable. If someone breaks out of that group, then it's a bonus.
www.DTPollard.com |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2334
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 07:01 pm: |
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Emanuel,
Thanks for the article, very informative! But Ms Miller says most of the same things that I have gotten from other established authors. She dispels a lot of myths on both sides.
There would not be a boom in self-publishing if traditional publishers accepted every manuscript. We all know that is not going to happen.
Hen81,
Do you really think that every manuscript SHOULD be accepted? Do you think that everyone who sits down at the computer and types up a story is a writer?
And what about the fact the the publishing house probably gets a hundred or so manuscripts that have almost the exact same storyline? Should they accept all of those? Then they would be competing against themselves no?
To suggest that a publisher should accept every manuscript sent to them is akin to saying that every actor who auditions for a role in a movie should get the part. Or every person who interviews for a certain job should be hired. Some would be qualified, perhaps even overly so, and some would not meet even the minimum qualifications and therefore would be eliminated from consideration. To hire everyone who applies would not make good business sense. The same holds true for publishing.
Right now, my books are a sideline. Full time I could crank out maybe three books per year, maybe more
Hen81,
Many authors keep their fulltime jobs and not because the writing can't replace the income they would lose from quitting the nine to five. Brenda Jackson, for example has written over 30 novels, has never quit her job. Because she choses not to. But it hasn't stopped her from writing all those books. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2335
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 07:10 pm: |
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End result was they don't own the rights to the books contracted to the pubisher and they either self-publish the next book or find a new publisher.
Having multiple publishers during one's career is not necessarily a bad thing. Many authors only do 2 book deals with a given publisher before moving on to contracts with other houses. This is why having a good agent is important.
And some publishing contracts have language that state the rights (those rights that the publisher negotiated for and recieved if the author has someone working on thier behalf who knows what they're doing. No,the publisher at a traditional house doesn't automatically own all rights to your book just because they publish it) reverts to the author once the book goes out of print. Again it takes someone who is saavy about the wording of contracts to make sure you're protected. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 93
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 08:02 pm: |
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Look, the point is becoming moot. I don't do point for point debates because they are endless and ask for responses to things that were never said or intended. We both know that digital technolgy is changing the game. S&S is looking at titles never going out of print because digital files can be stored indefinately and PODed to build their long tail.
I have my owm point of view of what kind of traditional deal appeals to me, others feel differently.
www.DTPollard.com |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2008 - 11:36 pm: |
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A_woman in a lot of ways I think you are missing the point. There are a myriad of reasons why a previously sucessfully self published author would take a publishinhg contract and an equal reason why they would not, or maybe take the deal today but reject the same deal a year from now. Everyone's situation is different.
My point is self publishing is a valid and can be a superior alternative to being published by a major house. Again it depends upon the author and the size of the offered deal. And as Hen81 suggested that is assuming one even has the choice to make.
A_woman would you accept a $3K advance for your most recent book from a major publisher? |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2336
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 05:56 am: |
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Troy,
I do see the point that you and others are making. I never implied that there is never a siutuation where one should self publish, it just would never be my first choice.
If a major house only offered me 3k for my next book, and my agent was unable to negotiate a better deal with another house, of course I would consider self publishing. Accepting a 3k deal would be going backward for me, since my first deal netted more than that.
I would lose the agent, by-pass the self publishing venues that are available now and pay a printer directly to print my books. Because printing books is really all that businesses like Iuniverse and PublishAmerica offer. They never edit, market,or publicize for you, so why should I give them money that I can pay directly to a book printer and probably for less than they charge, and without the rights struggle?
I'd find a printer in Canada or Japan like they do. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 598
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 08:49 am: |
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Troy,
I've spoken with authors who've taken no-advance deals with smaller presses. They felt the distribution and not paying money out of pocket to print books was worth giving what profits (and headaches) they would have experienced in self publishing. They would still earn their royalties but no portion in advance. If profit is not your main motivator, I could see why an author would accept a 3K advance as you mentioned or none at all. There's less risk this way and the writer can still just focus on writing and not all the other stuff self publishers must do.
A Womon,
Yes. Subsidy publishers are glorified printers. They do appeal to newbie writers because they handle the cover art, formating, and ISBN # for you. They promote making the book available on online bookstores but self publishers can do this for themselves. Some of these companies edit for a fee. The pitch is worry-free self publishing.
I do believe iUniverse uses Lightning Source out of Tennessee, which is owned by wholesale distributor Ingram. PublishAmerica used to use them but now they are supposed to have their own printing presses. Knowing this, I definitely eliminated the middle man and had my books printed at Lightning Source. The headache, of course, is learning to format a digital file, paying a graphic designer, paying an editor, and buying ISBN #s. The reward over subsidy publishing is not having that publisher's name on my books (they are frowned upon by many in the media, bookstores, and others in the industry), no worries about rights, and not splitting my profits. Of course, since I took on all the risk, I should get all the rewards.
It's my personal belief that if you're going to pay someone to print books, you should keep all the profits and have your own publishing company's name on the cover instead of their names which can serve as a scarlet letter.
Overall, it's way cheaper to go to an offset printer and print over 1000 books. Paying for this service up front, finding somewhere to store them, and then marketing those books is another matter. Those who print as many as Karen Quinones Miller did must REALLY believe in their work and their selling skills. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 94
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 11:35 am: |
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I started down the road of self-publishing my third book and then decided to go back with iUniverse. I just didn't want to devote the time to do all of the elements mayself. I still retain all rights either way.
I have not found the name iUniverse to be a problem except for major newspaper reviewers who won't touch self-published. Most only review mainstream fare anyway and use outside services with book sections dissapearing as circulation falls nationwide. That's where AALBC, Rawsistaz and those black community newspapers become invaluable. Libraries didn't care and ordered the books for their collection. Readers don't care and buy for the topic and storyline. Bookstores care about "RETURN STATUS" over anything else and quality. I submit my books for reviews, contests etc. Positive reviews etc. go a long way towards blunting other factors. Recorded Books didn't care and bought the audio rights because there was demand from their customer base, it was all about money and how much can be made.
http://www.recordedbooks.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=basics.exclusive
http://www.recordedbooks.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=rb.show_prod&prod_id=CR437
http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/123120941&tab=holdings&loc=75052#tabs
As you can see from the second link the revenue potential given enough placements is considerable. It's also going out as a wma audio file and placements seem to be quickly increasing. Bottom line is that this would not have happened if I did not publish the book and market like a madman. This book came out in final form November 2006, less than 1 yr later I did the audio deal. I know the time window of going traditional in print is much longer because I have no control over if it happens at all. This may be unique and I understand that.
I have a Barnes & Noble signing next weekend, I'm bringing my books. This is where it gets intersting, I have a Publish America book that I don't push, the CRM said that she could order that book for the signing because it shows up as returnable in their system. I know their discount makes the return non-profitable for the store. There is no black and white in this thing. You can select return status as an option now. Lightning Source offers three return options, non, to destroy or return to publisher.
I was at a signing with other authors and a traditionally published author was sittng next to me. She looked at my material and said 'I thought iUniverse books couldn't make the ESSENCE list." The month that my book made the list there was another iUniverse book on the list also. My books get good reviews, Fools' Heaven is a Rawsistaz Reviewer's Favorite. Rooftop Diva has a great review posted here on AALBC. I've posted before about the ability to build a reputation as a quality author apart from sales numbers, publisher's name or author's background can be acheived by self-publishing and traditional. Think about this for a second, an author produces two or three books that get great reviews, make a few bestseller lists and crack a few barriers over 4 years. Another author submits one manuscript to agents and publishers for four years and does not get accepted. Which author is in the stronger position to go to a traditional publisher?
One of the functions that a subsidy publisher does, a good one, is that you can choose from a menu of services. I selected editorial review and that has poined out some things that helped the final product. I removed three chapters from one of my books that the reviewer pointed out were a distraction from the main storyline and incorporated that activity in more of a dialogue that maintained tighter focus on the main character.
With the book market shrinking, publishers are going to look for sure bets and rolls of the dice. We have seen this no-advance profit sharing publishing format come along from at least one major publisher. That is, to me, a way to get material to throw against the wall and build their long tail. It is akin to a minor league farm system in baseball. If you sell enough you may get promoted. The days of developing an author seem to be past and marketing departments rule the day. Good work can still break through but it will take effort.
www.DTPollard.com |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 600
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 12:17 pm: |
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This is a great thread. Unfortunately, I gotta take a break from the boards and get some fiction writing done. Thanks everyone for contributing. I'm sure 904Diva got more information than she imagined. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2339
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 12:30 pm: |
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Another author submits one manuscript to agents and publishers for four years and does not get accepted. Which author is in the stronger position to go to a traditional publisher?
A traditional publisher cares little if anything at all about bestseller lists and such unless it ends up driving up sales. If the self publisher doesn't crack 5000 books sold a big house is still not interested.
DT How do you track your sales if you don't mind me asking? |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 95
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 12:38 pm: |
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I use Excel, quarterly statements from iUniverse & Recorded Books and iUniverse has an online sales tracking that you can check anytime.
I also check Ingram.
www.DTPollard.com |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2340
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 12:53 pm: |
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Ok thanks! And in case I never told you congrats on making the Essence Bestseller list. And I'm ordering "Fools Heaven" sounds like a great read.
Also Hen81 have you ever submitted to a traditional publisher or did you just listen to the stories circutlating regarding rejection of others by big houses? Cause I'm telling you I'm so glad that I hadn't heard all of the horror stories that floated around in space about how difficult it is to get published. I might have been more reluctant to have tried the traditional route if I had. However, it's been my experience that a lot of the stories just aren't accurate. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 96
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 02:21 pm: |
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I really didn't listen to anyone on my second and third books. I went straight to iUniverse after doing some research. I knew the lag times in getting responses from agents/publishers from some submissions I did on a business book manuscript. I had a goal of getting Rooftop Diva out around the 1st anniversary of Katrina and knew that I couldn't hit that schedule with traditional submissions and the reply lag times.
I do plan to go back to the well of traditional when I think I have my ammo in line.
Thank you A_woman for ordering Fools's Heaven. I want feedback to see if people are reading what I think I'm writing, if that makes any sense.
www.DTPollard.com |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1419
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 05:15 pm: |
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A_woman, check out the video of Persia Walker who was published by a major house, then published a book on her own: http://aalbc.com/authors/persia_walker.htm
She describes in some detail why she decided to self published. A_woman, please let me know what you think after you hear what Persia has to say.
Again this does not mean this is what YOU or anyone should do, but let me know if any of what she says makes sense to you. Also there is nothing Persia has said that I have not heard from scores of other authors.
I was talking to Treasure Blue on Thursday he still believes in self publishing. I asked him to read this conversation and email me any comments that he might have. I'll post then if he emails me anything...
Emanuel I went back to re-read what started this thread and I read your comment "Use self publishing as a last resort. It is exremely overglorified! It is curious that you would feel this way...
Might I suggest the following:
Use self publishing if you have taken the steps to produce a quality book and are willing and able to put the time and money into the project; being rejected by a major publisher does not mean you do not have a viable book (being published by a major house is overglorified!)
E, What do you think? |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2342
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 06:09 pm: |
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Troy,
I watched the video a while ago, however I watched it again to refresh my memory on it.
I liked Persia Walker once I saw the video and added her books to my wish list of books to read once I have some free time. (Free time is a luxury I don't really have right now, which is why I'm trying to break from Thumpers Corner for a minute. But being here is like smoking crack to me. I just can't seem to put it down!)
Persia did not say anything I hadn't heard before. About timing, control, etc. she's right.
However there were a number of points that were not true in my case.
I asked for and recieved an accounting of the number of books that were printed in the first print run, rights that had been sold already,(both the ones sold to my publisher and the ones that my agent retained for me) etc. I think people assume without asking that there are certain things the publisher won't tell you. So far I haven't been disappointed. I have received answers to all my queries.
Persia did say one thing that most self publishers don't. Usually when the average person thinks of self publishing, they don't have the money it would take to cover the costs of self publishing. That is why businesses like Publish America and IUniverse are so appealing to some because they tell people they will do everything for them with little or no out of pocket expense to the writer. (The write finds out later that what Mama said is true, "Nothing in life is free, so count the cost!") This is something that Emanuel has pointed out time and time again!
So most people would either have to save up to self publish as Persia said, or borrow from friends, relatives, or take out a loan from somewhere to cover self publishing expenses. And if they are not prepared to market themselves and their book, and do not sell enough to recoup their investment, much less realize a profit, then that is money that they have to repay again, out f pocket. So they are even further in the hole.
Let's be honest Troy, the latter is the case for MOST self publishers. And that is the problem that I have for people who say self publishing is a good option for everyone. It really isn't. If you have the money--ok if you don't IT"S A GAMBLE!
Even if I do spend my advance on promotions(which is totally up to me) The money still technically hasn't come out of my pocket and I don't owe anyone.
I hope Treasure E. emails you back. Anyone who could sell 65,000 books on their own is AMAZING! I'd love to hear anything he has to say.
See you in Atlanta in a few weeks, Troy and please don't forget my AALBC book bag! I'm looking forward to meeting you. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2343
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 06:17 pm: |
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And if traditional publishing is a gamble too, it's like gambling with someone else's money. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 601
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 06:54 pm: |
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I try to get out but they keep pulling me back in. LOL!
I too believe in self publishing when there is a plan, a marketing budget, and a specific goal you're trying to accomplish from the endeavor. The goal might not be to sell 5000 books in hopes of a traditional deal. The goal could be to be to use the book as an excuse to travel (yup, I've seen it)or a way to get a bit of fame or to show your former classmates at the high school reunion that you've accomplished something. It could also be a way to promote a business or to simply add a credential to your resume. If you read an earlier post, I made six arguments FOR self publishing.
Many times authors run out of money after the book is published. So how do they advertise? Messageboards, emails, maybe some homemade flyers. They usually don't make a dent in sales this way though. Again, the average self publisher is not an author with a sufficient budget to do self publishing right. How many self published authors do you run into that actually have the budget to buy ad space on this site or who can afford a commissioned book review?
The overglorified part comes when people get caught up in calling themselves CEOs of a publishing company, although they are not necessarily profitable publishing companies. You can call yourself Owner/CEO/President all you want but if you gotta go punch somebody else's timeclock in the morning, what kind of CEO are you?
When some people found out I self published my novel they were truly impressed because they saw a black man taking matters into his own hands and probably getting rich from it since I was keeping all the profits from those books sales. What they didn't see were the rejection letters from publishers and literary agents and how I didn't want to deal with that for lord knows how long so I published it myself. And with hardly any marketing dollars and barely making a profit on the books (thanks to the library market), I certainly didn't get rich or quit my day job.
And then there's the work as Karen Quinones Miller's site suggests. Face-to-face selling in beauty salons and barber shop, for example, made my skin crawl but I knew it was something I had to do. Then there was the shipping when people insisted on signed copies, paying the graphic designer, formating the book, writing for bylines in hopes someone will like the article and buy the book, setting up my own signings, writing my own press releases, and dealing with the national Borders on why they couldn't stock the book nationwide. All this while still working a day job. Lots of work and very little glory. I got a few good reviews (Rolling Out and Rawsistaz), appeared on a local Radio One talk show, and in local newspapers. But I'm still an unknown writer. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 602
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 07:22 pm: |
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Like A_Womon said, why spend your own money to produde books when someone else may be willing to do it? You can spend that money on marketing.
And I'll add, why go through the hassle of trying to establish distribution and getting into the major chains when you can get in with those who already have an in?
On the subsidy side, why deal with having your book priced over similar books of the same size and genre? Why spend money on services that you can get for free with tradtional publishing? Why spend money on services that you can buy yourself and keep 100% of the profits in true self publishing? Why deal with the negative stigma associated with subsidy publishing?
Like my mother once told me, everything ain't for everybody. If folks are happy with the decisions they've made, let them be happy. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 97
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 09:13 pm: |
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This has been an interesting debate that I think has opened some eyes on all sides. The only thing I want to add is becoming traditionally published is a DESIRE that can be pursued with vigor. The author does not have the ultimate power to green light the deal taking place. If that is the ONLY acceptable avenue, the author may one day have to decide if they or their work is up to par if no one accepts the work for publication. The only choices are to keep trying indefinately or move on. The ideal is to get the suitable advance and do all you can to make your books successful. MOST do not get that dea and many rightly shouldn't, but what do they do if the desire to see their work in final book form still burns.
Some may feel strongly that their work is niche and would be hard to place with a publisher and deside to self or subsidy publish.
As for a subsidy stigma, I think most know that whether a single payment went to one company or several went to graphic artists, editors, ISBN # provider, printer and so on, it was still self-published.
I used iUniverse as a packager to save time. If you just use certain services, the cost is controlled. Plus when issues come up I get them to correct them. I know there is a price to pay for that in GP but not dealing with some of the issues makes it worth it for me from a time standpoint.
www.DTPollard.com |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12432
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 12, 2008 - 09:32 pm: |
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Decisions, decisions. What should a new author do??? Opt to self publish or aspire to be traditionally published. What should be the choice?
Just flip a coin and hope you get lucky.  |
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