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904diva
First Time Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:21 am: | 
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I'm writing a new novel (fiction). I read that you cannot include an artist's song lyrics in your book. Does anyone know if this is true? Is it okay to add the artist and the song title and not the lyrics or can you not add any of them?
Thanks bunches! And be on the lookout for my new novel... Needle In A Haystack! |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 295
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:47 am: |
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904diva:
First, I believe there are copyright issues to consider. Second, some consider some types of use of lyrics to be amateurish. Ultimately, context matters...and it also matters who you ask, i.e., what your editor/agent/publisher (if any) thinks about it. Wish I could be more helpful/specific.
Good luck with your novel!. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2318
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 10:53 am: |
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Hi 904,
I believe that it is acceptable to use not more than two lines of a song in your novel without permission. And you are allowed to name singers and song titles with no copyright infringement worries.
There are a couple of websites that list the owner of a song along with the address and sometimes the phone number of the person to contact to get permission to use more than two lines of a song. There is a fee attached also. I forget the names of the sites right at the moment. It takes a while to hear back from the copyright holders, so if you're just getting started, it would be a good idea to put in your request now. |
904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:08 am: |
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Thank you for your input. I appreciate it. Being my first novel and totally new to the game, I'll definetly have to rely on you all until I do get an agent/publisher, etc. I'm still struggling with that aspect as well.
So my new question is... try for an agent (yeah right), self publish (expensive), what about Publish America? I'm sending out query letters to agents now. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2319
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 11:29 am: |
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Do an internet search on PublishAmerica---they have had a lot of negativity from people who have very bad experiences with them.
Personally, I would recommend that you try to get an agent. Most reputable houses will not look at your work without one. And an agent can help you avoid the pitfalls of getting involved with predatory type businesses/people who just want your money, and to navigate the very complex world of publishing, among other things. |
904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:16 pm: |
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Thank you so much A_womon. I did see their negative responses on Predators and Editors, but also saw great reviews on their message boards. I'll continue to try the agent avenue and see how that goes.
Thanks again! |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2320
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 12:50 pm: |
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You're welcome! A lot of new writers check out the acknowledgements page of books that are very similar to thiers. The author will generally thank their agents here.
You can make a list, and do a search on the internet with the names on your list and see if a particular agent is accepting new clients and what type of query that particular agent accepts. Most will want snail mail queries, but some do accept email queries.
THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. If you do not follow the agent's rules for querying them, your query package will most likely end up in the trash, unfortunately.
Author Terra Little's blog has some EXCELLENT posts on the type information you're searching for. Check her out when you get a chance. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1376
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 03:09 pm: |
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904diva, welcome -- I like seeing someone's very first post.
904diva I would encourage you not to use the song lyrics at all. If you feel you must use them -- even a single line -- I would get permission.
I don't think "Fair Use" speaks to a specific length of the material being used. It is how it is being used which is most important. People get sued over song lyrics all the time.
Seek the advice of a literary attorney. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2321
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 03:28 pm: |
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Troy,
The advice I gave to 904 didn't come off the top of my head, it is advice that I recieved from my editor...
I was advised that Two lines of a song is not copyright infringement. And I have used them in my book. |
Rondall
Moderator
Username: Rondall
Post Number: 138
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 04:05 pm: |
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True... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12388
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 04:14 pm: |
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Authors often take the title of their books from song lyrics or poems. Some of these are in the public domain and I've always been under the impression you could quote a couple of lines from current songs as long you acknowledged their composer. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2322
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 04:45 pm: |
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904,
The song copyright websites I spoke of earlier...one is ASCAP and the other is BMI. Check out the website at http://www.ascap.com/legislation/jointstatement.html |
904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:02 pm: |
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This has to be the best website I've joined!!! You guys are wonderful!
Thanks again! |
Carey
Veteran Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 880
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:12 pm: |
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Ms. 904diva
Flattery will get you no where but come on, you are doing a good job. But be forewarned of who's behind you hang on *lol*. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:19 pm: |
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A_womon, you wrote "I believe"; so while I did not suggest that you were speaking off the top of your head -- it would have been a fair assumption, based upon what you wrote.
I freely admit that I was speaking off the top of MY head: and I still think 904 should consult an attorney.
We have know idea how 904 is going to use the lyrics one would really need to understand the full context before knowing if this is fair use.
It may have been OK in your case. I would not assume it is OK in all cases.
Suppose the entire song is only two lines? Is it OK then? What if the book becomes a movie. Is it still cool to use the lyrics then?
I did skim the page you referenced, but did not see a rule stating using two lines of a song is always acceptable. It would be irrelavent anyway as ASCAP does not write US Copyright Law. I would reference the government site.
Attributing the source, while nice, does not get you off the hook on copyright infringement. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2323
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:31 pm: |
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ASCAP holds the license to most songs.
I agree Troy that how she is going to use the song is an important factor. If she lands a major publisher, believe me that they are going to ask the legal department, whether how she uses the lyrics of a song and how much she uses will open them up for a law suit.
If she is going to self publish, then she should consult an attorney anyway about a lot of legal matters, not just copyrights.
The thing is, the major cases sited in copyright suits have to do with the performance of copyrighted songs, or performers re-writing copyrighted materials or downloading copyrighted material.
Intellectual property is a very hard thing to prove that you have originated it, since words, phrases, sentences, have been used again, and again for centuries.
You cannot copyright and idea, only the EXPRESSION of the idea, and then if you want to sue, the onus is on YOU to prove that you are the only one who has used those words, sentences, or phrases in the manner that you have used them.
I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but I don't think infringement is as easy to prove as everyone assumes. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2324
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:35 pm: |
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904,
The only one who can give you legal advice is an attorney, so the advice I am giving you is from my experience only. I hope you understand that. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2325
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:41 pm: |
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Troy,
The link was for 904diva to research who holds the copyright to the song she wants to use and to get contact info for the license she will need if she wants to use an entire song in her book. I never said that was a link to prove anything.
Sheesh! Why is everybody always breathing down my neck when I offer advice or ask a question? I don't see you snapping at anyone else who offers advice based on their experience. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 581
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:53 pm: |
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Here is a direct quote from "Literary Law Guide for Authors" by Tonya Marie Evans and Susan Borden Evans, Attorneys at Law
"This myth among writers that using, say, 500 words or less of any copyrighted material is always fair use is just that: a myth. It is not true. In fact, copyright law does not set a precise amount of a copyrighted work that can be used without the owner's permission. The Copyright Act provides a series of factors to be considered to determine fair use exists."
My advice is to buy or borrow this book by these attorneys. There is a complete chapter devoted to copyright law. If it's still unclear after reading it in the book, seek an attorney. You'll definitely need to know one way or the other, especially if you publish non-traditionally. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 301
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 06:21 pm: |
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Emanuel: Thanks for this resource. |
Carey
Veteran Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 881
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 06:39 pm: |
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Wow
The limitations of the Internet.
It appears from standing on the sidelines that many of you are saying the same things. I didn't really notice any direct denail of someone's opinion I think most were just clarifying; clearing up what they or others may have said.
I do have an opinion and it's basically formulated from the data I recieved in this post. It seems to me that there is no safe bet when using something of anothers even if you give them credit. **it appears**
Although the ASCAP and the US Copyright laws serve similar functions, their duties are different.
I was always told that if one wants an answer or a reduction of a price, not to ask the stock boy but to voice your inquiry to someone that can give you something you can stand on.
Yes, that could mean an agent, attorney or you babies momma, depending on what you are looking for.
Case in point: This discussion! |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2327
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 07:15 pm: |
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[Contents]
C. Fair Use and New Communications Technology
Originally, fair use was a judicial doctrine that one author could make fair use of another author's work in creating his or her own new work. If the amount used was fair, the method or scope of distribution made no difference. If, for example, Author X made a fair use of the work of Author Y, the fact that Author X's book sold a million copies did not divest the the material of its fair use status
Today, fair use is a statutory right that applies to all copyrighted works and all rights of the copyright holder, and whether a use is fair is to be determined by applying the four factors listed in the statute. Since the method of distribution is not one of the statutory factors, it follows that the distribution of material by electronic rather than print media is not the decisive issue. The important point is that if the amount used does not unlawfully interfere with the copyright holder's marketing monopoly, it is a fair use. |
A_womon
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 2328
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 07:19 pm: |
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This is a complex issue and no one person has the answer to what constitutes copyright infringement except those who have had to know for use in the course day to day business, or who is skilled in legal matters. |
904diva
Newbie Poster
Username: 904diva
Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 03:38 pm: |
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I really do thank you all for your advice. I've come to a conclusion... I really can just take the lyrics out of the text, lol. It's just a song playing while they're, ummmm, handling business. So... just the singer and song title should suffice.
Again, thanks all for your great advice. Being the newbie, I welcome all advice. |
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