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Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 511
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 03:10 am: | 
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Hello All,
I just started this book, and already Butler surprised me. I think I'm going to love this one. I resisted reading Fledging because it is Butler's last book. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one, cause I love vampire tales. |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 418
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 11:59 am: |
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Hey Thumper - I really liked this one! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7029
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 12:07 pm: |
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Get back to us when you are finished. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 517
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 01:09 am: |
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Hello All,
I finished Fledgling and LOVED IT!! I am always ready for a creative interpretation of the vampire folklore and Butler did not disappoint. There are two things that I hate about this book:
1.) that Butler died soon after publication of this novel. The adventures of Shori was a series just waiting to be written.
2.) This book can never be a movie.
I LOVE this book! |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 419
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 12:05 pm: |
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My thoughts exactly! Sometimes vampire stories gross me out but this has the Butler sensuality that puts it on a different level. I've tried to get others to give it a chance saying it's not like you think. So far only one has taken me up on it and he loved it too. Would have made a great series. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7069
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 03:48 pm: |
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I didn't like it very much. Butler has a flat, deadpan style when she's at her best.
This was her first fantasy supernatural book--and I think her flagging energies are evident in it. |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 420
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 05:02 pm: |
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School me Chris, the Sci Fi guru, – are the terms Sci Fi, Alternative Fiction and Supernatural Lit synonymous? Are vampire stories considered Fantasy? In another post you said Butler’s Lilith’s Brood was “weak Sci Fi” – can you explain? What do you think makes “good” Sci Fi?
I’m not trying to put you on the spot or anything – just curious. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7078
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 11:04 am: |
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School me Chris, the Sci Fi guru,
(Be Glad to—by the way in some quarters I am known as The Notorious B.I.G. of SF)
– are the terms Sci Fi, Alternative Fiction and Supernatural Lit synonymous?
–
– No.
Sci Fi—by the way Old Skool Science Fiction lovers abhorred that term, associating it with cheap flying saucer movies like Plan 9 from Outer Space and preferring the terms
Science Fiction, Scientifiction or Speculative fiction—is that fiction in which science, or some scientific development, provides a basis for the setting or plot of the story.
It involves certain subjects or tropes, such as Time Travel, Robots, Aliens, Space Travel, Dystopia, Utopia and others.
I am not familiar with the term Alternative Fiction. I’ll look it up.
Supernatural Lit involves the Supernatural—ghosts, magic, magic spells, and the like. In science fiction the gimmicks are man made. In Supernatural fiction they are the result of magic or supernatural phenomena.
By the way, some would distinguish the Supernatural from Horror—seeing Horror as the more sensational stuff involving monsters, demonic possession, etc.
–
– Are vampire stories considered Fantasy?
(They could be—but generally not. Vampire stories, because of the blood, violence, and sexual innuendo are considered horror. Your Fantasy involves fantastic creatures—elves, fairies, dwarves, unicorns,
You also have High Fantasy, which takes place in fabled realms—Lord of the Rings might be considered High fantasy, and your classic fantasy, such as fairy tales, and others.
–
– In another post you said Butler’s Lilith’s Brood was “weak Sci Fi” – can you explain?
–
– (I was comparing Lilith’s Brood with H.G. Wells’ War of the Worlds. Both stories involve human alien contact, but they handle them differently.
Wells story, though dated now (we all know Mars is uninhabited and that the “canals” are not constructs, did depend on the science of the day and used it—when of course he was not engaging in the rip roaring melodramatic action the fanboyz liked.
Wells was a teacher of science. Mama Octavia only knew such science, close as well can tell as she picked up in school (I don’t think she went to college) and from self-education and from science fiction stories.
Be that as it may. There are plenty of writers who were weak in science who wrote great sci fi—Ray Bradbury, Harlan Ellison, William Gibson.
What struck me about Butler’s work is that it was not well imagined or thought out. She got this situation where an alien, star spanning race brings the human race back from extinction.
Imagine the possibilities and probabilities she could have played with. She could have really examined in detail what this alien society was like, and more importantly, since nobody knows what an alien is like or how anybody would act if they were in the presence of one, she could have used the alien society to compare and comment on our own, which Wells did with First Men on the Moon.
It is like, once she came up with this exciting concept, she backed off from it.
She is not the only one who has done this. The overrated Phillip K. Dick repeatedly opened the door and wouldn’t go through it.
Also, her whole style always tended to be matter of fact and deadpan—you don’t get any of the “gosh wow” that is an important component of Science Fiction.
She did a much better job, by the way in “Parable of the Talents” and “Parable of the Sower”, in which she imagines a post apocalyptic America in the grips of a Right Wing Christian government.
She must have felt that one.
–
– What do you think makes “good” Sci Fi?
–
– (All fiction is bullshit, but Sci Fi is almost ALL bullshit. In other words, if you were to ask me to write a story about a Vietnam vet, though I was not one I have a wealth of experiences I could draw on to construct one.
–
– Nobody has ever contacted an alien. Nobody has ever traveled in time. Nobody has become a superman. People have flown in space but it ain’t like it is on Star Trek or it was in The Skylark of Space or Buck Rogers.
–
– Good Sci Fi, to me, goes back to the original purpose it was put to by Mary Shelley in “Frankenstein” which was considered the first Sci Fi novel. In it the methods by which Frankenstein created his monster were unimportant—what was important was the examination of the possible calamities that might ensue when a man created a human being—what you might consider wondrous.
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– This topic is fresh, as well consider the benefits of nuclear proliferation, global warming, pollution, over population, etc.
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– Thus, Bradbury could be ignorant of science and knock one out of the stadium with Fahrenheit 451 or “Way in the Middle of the Air”
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– Of course there have been some works that are just so colorful and fun that I would consider them good—“The Stars My Destination” “Nueromancer” “The Fall of Hyperion”)
I’m not trying to put you on the spot or anything – just curious.
(Anytime. Sometime you need to get my rant on Black Science Fiction (“If it Ain’t Science and It’ Ain’t Fiction Need Black Folks Read Science Fiction?) |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 520
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2008 - 09:47 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: I don't know if I buy your theory of sci-fi, although its very good, the best definitions I have read, especially where it concerns Fledgling. In the novel, it was explained to Shori, by two different characters, one being her father, that the alien origin of their race was a theory. Basically, I came away with the notion that nobody knew how the vampires came to be. And maybe its just me, but I would consider vampires science--medical science. I see no difference between Vampires and Frankenstein. Vampire would fit under medical science, how else to explain the never aging, surviving only on blood, etc?
If I were using your logic, I would not consider Fahenheit 451 as science fiction. Should all stories told in the future be considered science fiction? |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 421
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 02:06 pm: |
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This is great - thanks Professor!
I was a big fan of Stephen King [guess that would be horror] back in the day and was very glad to find some Black "sci-fi" writers in the last several years just because of some of the reasons cited in the Omar Tyree/urban lit post. If you don't like the street crap find something else to read ... sounds simple huh?
And I'd be interested in your Black Science Fiction rant when you get around to it. |
Carey
Veteran Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 879
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 30, 2008 - 05:05 pm: |
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Hello Crystal
I always walk a little lightly around you but ahhh...
Chris be bringing the magic up in here. He steps out with a bold stride, fearless to say the least. Rant huh.....I don't think so. I call it giving some a comeup.
Now baby be nice *smile*. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7080
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 01:38 pm: |
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And maybe its just me, but I would consider vampires science--medical science. I see no difference between Vampires and Frankenstein. Vampire would fit under medical science, how else to explain the never aging, surviving only on blood, etc?
(What then is the scientific explanation for vamprism? What is the gene or scientific phenomenon that created them?
What is the scientific basis for their many feats? Say, transformation into a wolf, a bat, or a cloud of smoke?
In science fiction the explanation for the phenomenon is man made-- The Time Traveller in The Time Machine travels to the future in a machine he made.
Rip Van Winkle travels into the future by falling asleep.)
If I were using your logic, I would not consider Fahenheit 451 as science fiction. Should all stories told in the future be considered science fiction?
(You don't remember the mechanical robot hound that the Firemen use? How about the futuristic television?
If the futuristic stories involve technological marvels generally they would be science fiction--
Understand The Time Machine is set in a low tech future--but one in which mankind has evolved (or devolved) into two different species
This--plus the use of the machine to travel to it, makes it science fiction. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7081
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 01:39 pm: |
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Alternative Fiction
(Crystal, did you mean Alternative History?) |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7082
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2008 - 01:40 pm: |
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I was a big fan of Stephen King [guess that would be horror
(A lot of his stories are Sci Fi Horror--much of H.P. Lovecraft was Sci Fi Horror--such as "The Colour Out of Space" |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7093
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 12:56 pm: |
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The Real Vampire Directory
http://www.sanguinarius.org/links/ |
Crystal
Veteran Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 422
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 03:20 pm: |
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Chris - I thought I read "alternative fiction" somewhere in connection with Sci Fi . . . but maybe not. Nevermind.
That sanguinarius site is very creepy! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7096
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 04:21 pm: |
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They do have a branch called Alternative History, involving What if scenarios with changes in History--
One such is Lion's Blood by Steve Barnes which postulates what might have happened had Africans enslaved whites and colonized the New World. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 534
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2008 - 07:26 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris wrote: "(What then is the scientific explanation for vamprism? What is the gene or scientific phenomenon that created them?
What is the scientific basis for their many feats? Say, transformation into a wolf, a bat, or a cloud of smoke?"
Butler's vampires did not make these claims of her vampires, neither did Anne Rice. Butler did not bother to explain the how and why (according to your sci fi article she did not have to). After all H. G. Wells didn't describe that actual method or provide blueprints or present any theories or scietific data in the construction of his time machine did he? *eyebrow raised* Rice said her vampires came from a blood drinking demon, while other authors take on the vampire theory varies. For instance, Frank Perriti's The Oath, his vampires were basically people who were genetically predisposed to when they drank blood, the blood acted as a drug and the drinker became high. So, I'm not seeing a great deal of difference from this and Shelley's Frankenstein who Dr. Frankenstein sewed up a bunch of body parts and stuck a lightening rod to the heart to start it to beating (in today's age that device would be a defibrillator, so I guess Shelley could be responsible for that device invention).
And anyway, isn't science just another way of saying man's way of duplicating nature per Frankenstein. And again using your logic, shouldn't these urban street lit books be classified as science fiction? I mean, Crack is man made, isn't it? Just like Coke, Herion, and all the other drugs...well with the exception of reefer. So, some Iceberg Slim and Donald Goines books should be housed in the science fiction department? *eyebrow raised* |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12392
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2008 - 12:23 pm: |
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I always reconciled my questions about the inexplicable in alternative lit by suspending my belief system, and attributing aberrations to the realm of the super natural where the impossible is possible. Once you start delving for scientific origins then you take away the mystery and the magic and you sacrifice your esoteric mind-set.
And although man can chemically duplicate mind altering drugs, they all do exist in a natural state and can be harvested from the earth.  |
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