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Yvettep
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:43 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Salon.com front page article:

Lost in America
It was supposed to be a storybook tale of young refugees triumphing against all odds. But an alarming number of Sudan's "Lost Boys" have spiraled into alcohol abuse, crime and even fratricide. What went wrong?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Leigh Flayton



Aug. 16, 2005 | PHOENIX -- When Joseph Abil arrived in Dallas in 1995, he represented the first wave of extraordinary refugees, mostly young men, who became known to the world as the "Lost Boys of Sudan." Abil, 20 years old at the time, had fled civil war in his native country that wiped out his village. He survived a perilous migration across Africa, endless hunger, and harsh conditions in a refugee camp in Kenya. When he settled in Texas, with the help of the United States government, he was finally free to lead a life of hope and promise.

But life in America presented Abil with struggles and dangers of a different kind. In 1997, feeling isolated, he moved to Phoenix, where other refugees from his Sudanese community had been resettled. He lived alone in an apartment and worked as a stock clerk at a Fry's supermarket. Although Abil took medication for mental health problems, his friend Martin Abucha said Abil had no trouble holding down a job.

Early this year, Abil stopped going to work. One afternoon in February, he left his apartment and headed for the I-17 freeway, miles from where he lived, and started wandering north along the median during rush hour. A highway patrol officer approached Abil, and according to a report from Arizona state officials, Abil grew "agitated" and refused to move off the median to a safe location. The officer fired a Taser at Abil, who retaliated by throwing "baseball-sized rocks" at him. Pulling out a handgun, the officer fired three shots at Abil. The refugee who triumphed over years of hardship in Africa fell dead on the Arizona freeway.

Since the late 1990s, the Lost Boys have made headlines around the world. In 2001, their sojourn was hailed as a remarkable success story on "60 Minutes II." "In Sudan, thousands of Lost Boys fought off dangers we can barely imagine, and are now, happily, flying off to the United States," reported CBS correspondent Bob Simon. In a second story that aired the following January, Simon said of the Lost Boys' lives in America: "There were dark moments. There were bound to be, but they passed." A Kansas City man, featured in the show, said of one Lost Boy he mentored, "He's living the American dream. He's already got a job; he's self-sufficient. You've taken someone literally, almost literally, in the Stone Age and dropped him into a modern civilization, saying after four months you're on your own, and he is, and he's fine."

Many of Abil's "brothers," as the Lost Boys call each other, have indeed made better lives here. They are earning high school diplomas, attending community colleges and universities, and holding down a variety of jobs, typically low-paying ones. Today, nearly 4,000 Lost Boys call America home.

Last December, Arizona's Deng Majok Chol, 27, became the first Lost Boy to graduate from a major U.S. college, Arizona State University, with a double major in political science and economics. In February of this year, People magazine profiled three Lost Boys who had returned to the Kakuma refugee camp in Kenya to help their brothers still stuck there. "In less than five years," reported the magazine, "they transformed from wide-eyed immigrants who had never seen a kitchen freezer to young men working their way through college in San Diego."

But for an alarming number of Lost Boys, their journey to America has taken a much darker turn -- into unemployment, alcohol abuse, petty crime, murder and suicide. Unresolved cultural differences and a lack of support, training and education have led them to fall through the cracks of the social and legal system. Many Lost Boys, advocates and researchers say, suffer from some degree of trauma-related mental illness, most notably post-traumatic stress disorder.

"We want our Lost Boys happy, polite and grateful -- and during the first couple of honeymoon years, that's what we saw," says Ann Wheat, co-founder of the Arizona Lost Boys Center in Phoenix. The center, which opened in 2003, offers more than 400 Lost Boys a place to gather, speak with career counselors, and get legal and medical advice. "But we do the Lost Boys and ourselves a huge disservice by perpetuating a one-dimensional image of them. If they were all models of emotional health, we might as well conclude that war is good for children, save our time and resources, and all go home." Wheat, who also works as a supervisor for Phoenix's city parks, says that reports of troubling incidents around the country often reach the center through the Lost Boys' own word-of-mouth network. Lately, she says, "It has started to feel like an epidemic."

The Lost Boys were victims of a brutal civil war in the south of Sudan that began more than two decades ago. The Arizona center's current outreach coordinator, Jany Deng, 26, landed in Phoenix in 1995; he and his blood brother Simon were two of the first four Lost Boys to arrive in Arizona. Their saga had begun 10 years before.

While herding cattle in 1985, Jany and other boys from his village witnessed the destruction of their homes by government-backed Islamic militias. They took off running, beginning a multiyear exodus that spanned East Africa and countries around the globe. Many of their parents were murdered and their sisters raped, enslaved and killed. (As a result, there are fewer Lost Girls.)

For years, tens of thousands of Lost Boys walked more than 1,000 miles across East Africa, thousands dying of starvation, disease, and militia and animal attacks. Jany and his group first went east to Ethiopia, where Jany was reunited with Simon, who had made it there with another group of Lost Boys. But when civil war flared up in 1990, they fled back to Sudan. They returned to nothing: Their family and village were gone. Eventually they trekked to Kenya, winding up in the Dadaab refugee camp. After a year in Dadaab, they were among the first few relocated to the United States.

In the 2003 documentary film "Lost Boys of Sudan," one Lost Boy expresses the shared perception, while in the Kakuma refugee camp, of what it will be like to leave for America: "This journey is like you are going to heaven."

When Jany and Simon arrived in Arizona, Jany, then age 16, was sent to live with a foster family; Simon, 23, shared an apartment with two older boys. It was a pattern that continued from coast to coast as more of them came; the minors were resettled with families, while older Lost Boys were placed in dingy apartments, often cramped together, in rough city neighborhoods or on the outskirts of towns.

In Phoenix, Jany attended school, made friends and joined the track team; Simon couldn't keep a job. He told Jany that "people looked at him different and made comments." By the spring of 1997, Simon had grown despondent. He wanted to bring his girlfriend from Dadaab to Arizona, but to no avail. He had no money or job prospects. According to Jany, Simon began to speak of suicide.

On Apr. 10, 1997, Simon bought a 9MM rifle and rode a city bus toward the Catholic Social Services office building in North Phoenix. He got off the bus, took the rifle out of its box and fired it in the parking lot of a Circle K convenience store before heading to the office. A police helicopter and officers responded as Simon entered Catholic Social Services at lunchtime. Once inside, Simon looked for his caseworkers and, according to the police report, began firing his gun in the air. No one was hurt. The police arrived at the building and Simon shot at Officer Terrence Kobza. Kobza returned fire and killed Simon with a bullet in the arm and another in the chest.

Today, Jany still hasn't made peace with Simon's death. "Why here?" he asks. "He could have died over there. I could have died over there," he says of Africa, his words breaking into a stutter. "The way it happened, it was not a good way."

Local news and police reports from the past eight years, along with accounts from advocates and Lost Boys themselves, reveal a trail of tragic events.

In August 2001 in Boston, Daniel Majok Kachuol, 19, was charged with assault and rape, just six months after his arrival. In September 2002 in Rochester, Minn., Christofar Atak, 31, ran in front of a police car in the street, shouting, "I want to die!" Under disputed circumstances, a police officer ended up shooting Atak point-blank in the back. Atak, who survived, had a blood-alcohol level that indicated he was severely intoxicated. That same month, Phillip Ajack Cham, 33, entered an immigration office in Houston demanding to be repatriated to Sudan; he grabbed a gun from a guard, firing it and threatening suicide before being subdued by officers.

In April 2004 in Fargo, N.D., Chol Deng Chol, 25 -- considered "one of the most promising students we've seen in a long time" by a mentor at North Dakota State University -- was charged with the rapes of two teenage girls after a night of drinking. In Atlanta that summer, Ajuong Manuer, 21, died following an alcohol-fueled fight -- over $10 -- with fellow Lost Boy Mayen Biar Diing, 25. And in May 2005 in Seattle, Kero Riiny Giir, 27, stabbed to death an ex-girlfriend, Lost Girl Roda Bec, 16, for being "rude" to him, as he would later tell police. After fleeing the scene, Giir had jumped off a highway overpass in an apparent suicide attempt.

"We have a lot of angry Lost Boys, and it has not been brought to the attention of the community," says John Aza, 40, director of the Southern Sudanese Resettlement Program in Tucson. Aza left Sudan in 1996 and is currently earning a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from the University of Arizona. He does not count himself among the Lost Boys, though he is close with the community. At the end of July, Aza visited six Lost Boys who had been released from jail -- some arrested for driving while intoxicated, two for arguing with police officers after a fight in a club. For Lost Boys who lack jobs and community support, and who have a hard time adapting to American culture, says Aza, alcohol is often "the nearest comfort."

"A lot of Lost Boys have been picked up for DUIs," Wheat says. "It appears to be a growing problem in the Sudanese community, but it's something that's kept a dark secret. They don't deal with it. We could start an AA meeting at the center and nobody would come."

Advocates across the country, including from large enclaves in Atlanta and Jacksonville, Fla., express serious concerns about publicizing the Lost Boys' problems. They say the refugee community is extremely sensitive about them, while some fear a backlash could undermine fundraising, scholarships and the ability to enlist volunteers and mentors. Wheat also worries that news of dark-skinned refugees falling into violent crime won't be well received, especially in America's post-Sept. 11 political climate.

But shining a light on the troubling cases could be critical to helping the refugees, says Apuk Ayuel, who serves as deputy spokeswoman for the newly established Lost Boys and Girls of Sudan, a nonprofit support group based in Los Angeles. Ayuel, 24, fled Sudan with her mother and arrived in Houston in 1996. She currently studies political science at the University of Texas at Arlington. "It seems like the way it's depicted is that every single Lost Boy has gone through -- that their situation is all equal, that all of them are getting educations," she says. "But there are a lot of people who are falling through the cracks. Their deeper stories are not being told."

Some of those stories involve dozens of Lost Boys who have been victimized themselves. Violent crime -- often in racially charged circumstances -- including assault, robbery and murder, has led to the deaths of at least four Lost Boys. They have also been involved in a rash of car accidents. Many Lost Boys saw their first cars just a few years ago and so have little driving experience; according to Wheat, more than two dozen had serious accidents in Arizona alone in 2004, including two fatalities.

Wheat says she knows of at least a dozen around the country who've attempted suicide.

While the details of various tragic cases remain murky, researchers see at least one clear thread tying them all together: trauma-related mental illness, mostly left untreated. David Berceli is a trauma therapist and founder of Trauma Recovery Assessment and Prevention Services who worked in Sudan between 2001 and 2004. Berceli, who counseled a group at the Arizona Lost Boys Center in July on post-traumatic stress disorder, says he's troubled, but not surprised by the pattern of incidents. "With people who have been put through years of life-and-death experiences, untreated fear and anger can develop into hatred and rage," he says. "It becomes an uncontrollable energy."

In June, Dr. Paul Geltman, a professor of pediatrics at the Boston University School of Medicine, published a study measuring the assimilation and well-being of 304 Lost Boys who arrived as minors in the U.S. from late 2000 to early 2001. While many fared relatively well, the study concludes that 20 percent of them suffer from PTSD.

Geltman says the rate of PTSD does not necessarily go beyond "what would be expected" of a traumatized refugee population. At the same time, he adds, he finds it remarkable that the prevalence of PTSD isn't higher. "I'd love the opportunity to do a large assessment of the older Lost Boys for comparison," he says. He notes that the problems of the older Lost Boys are probably "much greater" and would amount to greater levels of dysfunction, considering they've received less attention and support, and fewer services, than the minors. But even the minors, Geltman says, have not necessarily received the mental health help they've needed. As a result, his report concludes, the Lost Boys face lasting difficulties in being integrated into U.S. society.

Advocates, including Sudanese who have become leaders among the refugee community, share that view. According to Ayuel, many of the Lost Boys still suffer nightmares about the horrors they witnessed and endured. "They're normal most of the time, but they'll have the same nightmares over and over," she says. "There are some people in the community of Lost Boys and Girls who will say, 'Yeah, they're a little crazy.'" Ayuel says therapy is a concept as foreign to the Sudanese natives as refrigerators and fast-food restaurants once were. In fact, therapy is taboo to them.

Peter Deng (no relation to Jany; the name Deng means "rain" and is common in Sudan) found his way to Phoenix in 2001. When he arrived, he recalls, "I was thinking about food." During his nine years in a refugee camp in Kenya, he ate food provided by American relief agencies. "So I was thinking that America is a good country," he says. "Maybe if I go there I will make money; I will go to school."

In his first year in Phoenix, Peter was beaten up, carjacked and wrongly accused of fathering a child. He was fined $1,200 for driving without a license or insurance, which he had no idea he needed. He learned about the U.S. court system when he had to file a restraining order against a former girlfriend, who threatened him by saying, "You are just a refugee here in America. I can kill you." These days, Peter rarely goes out in public, especially at night, and he says he fears going to jail. "If I go to public places, the mall or a club, somebody might hurt me for that," he says, seated inside the Arizona center one afternoon.

Peter has received important assistance from the center, which helped him find a job as a file clerk for a company that sells concert tickets. Located across the street from the state capitol in a dodgy part of downtown Phoenix, the center shares a parking lot with a plastics recycling plant. Sudanese folk art and black-and-white portraits of Lost Boys at the Kakuma refugee camp add touches of familiarity to a place that offers help with foreign struggles like disconnected phone lines, eviction notices and shopping for groceries and clothes. (Lost Boys in Phoenix, according to Wheat, have been bilked for thousands of dollars by disreputable companies.) The center has partnered with Target, PetSmart, Phoenix's Sky Harbor airport and other businesses to arrange some 150 jobs for Lost Boys.

Peter earns $8.50 an hour in his clerk job, and works on his skills at the center's computer lab in his spare time. He watches a lot of television and movies, citing "Rush Hour" as a favorite film. Like many of his brothers, he says he wants to earn enough money to move back home to Sudan, find his missing family, marry and help rebuild the war-ravaged country. For now, Peter remains a homebody, struggling to make it day to day in Phoenix.

Jany, the center's outreach coordinator, shares Peter's ambitions, as do a great majority of their brothers, of helping to rebuild Sudan. These days, of course, the country faces a grave crisis in the western region of Darfur, where genocide at the hands of the notorious government-backed Janjaweed militias has created a new generation of physically and psychologically brutalized refugees. To date, the U.S. government has not formally resettled any of them here.

Jany points out that the prospect for peace darkened considerably on July 30, when longtime southern Sudanese rebel leader and newly elected Vice President John Garang died in a helicopter crash, plunging the country's fragile peace into an unknown future -- and hitting the Lost Boys community across America with a new wave of grief and fear. "It's a huge blow," Jany says. He adds that many Sudanese people don't believe Garang's death was an accident, and fears that the Sudanese regime is going to kill more of his community's leaders back home. "It's on everybody's mind," Jany says.

The plight of his fellow refugees in America also continues to weigh heavily on him. Jany, who plans to graduate next May from Arizona State University with a bachelor's degree in social work, says he loves his work counseling his brothers and helping them to find and keep jobs. But cultural differences, he acknowledges, continue to exacerbate the Lost Boys' problems. In Sudan, he says, young people don't trust police, who regularly kill civilians. "We were taught to fight our own battles," Jany says. So it's no surprise, he continues, that many Lost Boys in America are wary of police and governmental authorities.

Some Lost Boys also have had trouble adjusting to American sexual mores. Unfamiliar with America's system of dating, Jany says, the younger men sometimes mistake friendliness for sexual interest, and so being rejected by women can stoke feelings of frustration and alienation, and even lead to violence.

Eight years after his brother's death, Jany keeps his spirits up by immersing himself in his work at the center. He is also a marathon runner, which he calls his passion and "getaway thing" -- he has qualified for next year's Boston Marathon. He says he's so busy taking care of everyone else that he sometimes doesn't look after himself enough. Jany seldom has the energy to make it through his homework after a full day of school and work. He has suffered from anemia; he collapsed last January while running a marathon.

Last December, he fell asleep behind the wheel of his car. The car flipped over three times and was totaled, but luckily Jany managed to escape without a scratch. Lately, he says, his grades have started to slip and he sometimes feels dizzy -- yet, his own training aside, he says he isn't sure what else he should do. "I'm abusing myself," he says, smiling, when asked if he thinks he might suffer from PTSD.

Aydin Bal, a researcher and doctoral candidate at Arizona State University who has worked extensively with Arizona's Lost Boys, affirms that the upbeat image of this remarkable group of survivors is authentic. In spite of a harrowing past, he says, they remain determined to fit in and succeed in America. "They have shown an enormous amount of resiliency," Bal says. "Of course they are not trying to find food or drinking water now," he says. "But they are still trying to find their past, their memory."

Unfortunately, support services for the Lost Boys are drying up. According to Wheat, if the Arizona center can't raise $250,000 before a core grant from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services expires on Sept. 30, the doors will close. Several Lost Boys organizations in other U.S. cities are also strapped for funds. In 2002, the federal government's Office of Refugee Resettlement cut general mental health funding, previously about $2.8 million per year, from its budget.

In the meantime, some Lost Boys in America who struggled the most with fear and grief reverted to the one way of escape they knew best. Earlier this year, a 23-year-old Lost Boy, diagnosed with schizophrenia and convinced that people wanted to kill him, disappeared from his home in Syracuse. By June, he'd wandered more than 2,100 miles to Mexico City. And then there was Abil, the Lost Boy who was shot and killed on the Arizona freeway. "After all the miles he walked in Africa to escape hell, he returned to walking," Wheat says. "I wonder where he was heading. I wonder if he knew."

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Tonya
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 01:44 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette: Interesting article. How do you feel about it?

I remember watching a television news piece about this subject and I felt uneasy about it. I couldn't understand how these boys were going to adjust in america. Also, the piece was misleading because I came away from it thinking that these boys were being cared for by white, middle class american families. Even the older boys seemed to be in their care. The thought of white americans being the caregivers for the lost boys concerned me, but to now learn that they were really dumped in ghettos without recieving any real support is even more troubling. I feel sorry for these young men because they've been sent to a place where it's tough for any black man to adjust. I know that where they come from is worse,in terms of violence, but having to rebuild in one of the most racist and crippling societies known to black men surely cannot be easy; especailly after what they've gone through.

Tonya
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Yvettep
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 03:39 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya, I too, found the article interesting.

I haven't had a whole lot of time to reflect on it, but I do have some gut reactions:

(1) What about the "lost girls" (if any)? What has happened to any girls/women who came here and to those left behind?

(2) If there something about black "exotics" that make them more a source of compassion, interest, whatever than "regular old black folk" who have been here for forever? What is it?

(3) Is there something to the idea that personal sanity/psychological well-being can be somehow tied to a specific geographical locale? Even if such an idea is just a myth (or can be explained by something else), is there something to the idea that someone can *believe* this to be true, and so suffers regardless of whether it is "actually true"?

Just a few quick reflections in a day otherwise too busy for sustained ponderings! I'm interested to hear others' thoughts, especially those of you more educated on the topic than I am.

Take care!
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 05:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

I haven't read this artical yet but I'm not suprised about "lost in America". The lost boys are my people and I'm sure that they are going through very tough times in this country.

These boys are lonely and because they came here without their women, I'm sorry to say that they will not have it easy in this country with other people's women.. which some of the fights and getting shot have been about. A black American man will be pissed to see a Sudanese dating his woman.

Back in the refugee camp, some main said, "Women will not make it alone in another country" I just think that this was a sorry prediction to not let the girls be "lost girls of Sudan" and bring them to the United States with their boys. If they are 18+ years old, I don't care if they are boys or girls, can make it in another world.

As a matter of fact, I think girls are stronger than boys in terms of making it in the world through hard work. Men on the other hand are just strong physically.

Well, this is it for me. I will read this artical and post more on it later.
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Tonya
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 06:42 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette and AQ,

I've been wondering about the girls of Sudan as well. And, until now, I haven't been able to get an acceptable answer to why they haven't been sent to America in greater numbers. But if y'all notice, the article tries to explain this:

Flayton---Many of their parents were murdered and their sisters raped, enslaved and killed. (As a result, there are fewer Lost Girls.)

Tonya---I don't know if this is truely the reason why there are fewer lost girls, but it's the only answer I've gotten so far.

Tonya

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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

Nobody gives damn about the "lost girls" because.....they are FEMALE and BLACK.

It's sexism. Nothing new.

SUDAN is inundated with camps and camps full of WOMEN and GIRLS that no country wants----because they're "charcoal" and not "compatible" for assimilation.

If any thing, they'd be a threat.

Black males are far more willing to part with their cultural identity---even their physical form....and are outstanding "lackeys".

Females,however, are more likely to pass their culture into their children, which impedes assimilation......and in this case, the women are so black, you really can't break down their genetics through assimilation.

IN GENERAL (not always), but IN GENERAL...the female genes usually "dominate" the male's...which is why dark brown men such as Lou Rawls and O.J. Simpson can have children who look "almost pure white" with White women.

American slavery, however, has proven that Black Women's genetics dominates White men's genes the same way.

So they don't want 15,000 charcoal Sudanese women over here, trust me.

Look at how dark and nappy I came out.

___________________


Yvette,

White people respect more than anything..."purity" in a people.

It's them who give BLUE RIBBONS for "pure bred" animals---remember?

Unfortunately, and unfairly---that's one of the main reasons they have a fascination,hatred, affinity for those people they see as being "more authentic".

A lot of their CORE DISRESPECT for Black Americans is (a) that they once owned them and (b) AAs are "perceived" as wanting to be anything but black.

So although it's WRONG and UNFAIR---they are more "interested" in the African for being more "African".







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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:19 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

Not because they are black, but because they are female. It's a culture thing, and you're right, it's also sexism. Women are not suppose to live alone in the Dinka culture, which if they came to the US as "lost girls" they would have to live alone. They are suppose to live with their parents until they're married. But these days, I think it's changed a bit. Women are being educated now. But not bringing those girls to the United States the same way the boys came was a sexist issue. It has nothing to do with color though, I don't think.

It also has nothing to do with the rape and killing in Sudan. This is a lie and an excuse. Of course if the woman does not survive this brutality, the men too will not. The article is lying because someone told them that this is the issue and why the lost girls are not here. This would mean that all the women and children of South Sudan are dead. This is not true. There is just as many women back in the refugee camp as there is many men. So please Tonya, do not pay attention to that part of the article. I am mad because the girls should have their stories told as much as the boys. Not fair.

But I am also a lost girl I guess you can say. But I came here with my parents. So I'm not lost in terms of loosing a parent and sisters but in terms of loosing a country. In addition, loosing a culture, loosing my life, loosing everything. But I'm brave and believe in God. There is always a way. And I also believe that just because I'm in the United States does not mean I can't be happy or treated just as equal. I will treat others as they treat me. And this is what some of the lost boys need to learn. I could have killed myself a long time ago.. but I'm not about to let anyone win my life. Suicide and becoming crazy is defitenitely not the answer. I say to myself, screw fitting in because I came to this earth alone anyway. I wish there was anything I could do to help... maybe I should try and get into counselling, I don't know.. But I'm not here to stay in America. As far as I'm away from Sudan, I have decided to travel my ass off. I'll have fun for the next 21 years. I guess you can call it my 21 years of travelling. And then I'll go back to Sudan and get shot or die whenever it's time to go.

Men of Sudan come to this country and think it would be a piece of cake. It is no Heaven. Sudan is suppose to be the heaven because it is their home. Right now it's hell for sure because of the war. But there is no place like home.

But anyway, it wasn't the "other" country's fault because of color. These girls' elders back in the refugee camp did not want their girls to come here "alone"... it's a culture thing. And now the lost boys don't have any wives. They get lonely, they need some love. Believe me, marriage is a big thing in Sudan. Back home, they can marry up to 5 wives if they needed to. But in America, without their girls here, they can't even find 1. But this is the mistake only they made. Now they have to fly their asses back to the camp to bring a girl to the United States and marry them. But eventually the wives run away from the men because they get it easy here in America. Again Kola you are right, it is sexism.. I don't think it has anything to do with color. After all, the men are just as dark. Actually women are born a little lighter than men, so I don't know why other countries would think of "color" but this is not the issue. The elderly Dinka men and women had a meeting and decided women should never live alone until they're married. This is what happenned and this was a mistake.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Flayton---Many of their parents were murdered and their sisters raped, enslaved and killed. (As a result, there are fewer Lost Girls.)

Me: So if the parents were murdered and the girls were raped and killed, then how did 10, 12, 13, 18 year old boys survive? If this was true, the article would have more detail. I'm sure all the children would have been killed. Both the boys and the girls.

They just wanted to come to the US, find a way and leave the girls behind. They could have brought the girls too. But women are not treated as equal to men. They have to shut up and get married. That is exactly what they did, told the media, the girls are dead. It's bullshit... Believe me, I know my culture and it sickens me because men have so much control over the women. They decide when you get married and everything. And most elderly women that are already in America, whom were raised this way support this because this is how they were raised. But growing up in America, it is hard for me to follow it because it is too strict.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My previous posts also goes to Yvette or anyone else that need to know why there is no "The lost girls" movement.
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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AfricanQueen---


the White Christian Organizations that PAY MONEY to ship the men here to America----could just as well send girls, or boy-girl couples. Those women in Sudan have NOBODY objecting to them leaving to live "alone"......and not only that.....they're too poor and destitute to say "no" if someone gave them the chance to leave the country.

You came here with your parents as a very small child. I was "given away" by my Egyptian family, so our experiences are different from the CAMP WOMEN.

MOST OF THEM...have no men around and would LOVE to come here!

But the WHITE CHRISTIAN organizations that get "Program Subsidy Money" from the U.S. Government---and have made the "LOST BOYS" an industry-----also have to take orders from the government as to WHO they bring over here.

There is a DELIBERATE and INTENTIONAL maligning against bringing the women.

The United States, Australia, England and all the EUROPEAN nations that "pay" to bring "LOST BOYS" to their countries.....they ALL have guidelines to keep the "female" integration at just 20% of the male number.

I fund raise for several of these agencies and have been bitching about it for years now.

They don't want those women over here----because they're BLACK (like their men).......and they are also harder to convert to the culture, mainly because FEMALES are the ones responsible for guarding/passing on "acculturation".

The same "immigration" was done with RWANDANS. The "women" were not allowed...the men were shipped to these White countries.

I have a Priest, Father Kettnis in Australia whose daughter married a Sudanese Dinka after he became a minister. They live in Australia and have 18 "LOST BOYS" in their Parrish. Not a single girl.

Notice that BOSNIAN "lost boys" and "lost women" were brought here in EQUAL NUMBERS.

__________

And you're right. Most of the "LOST BOYS" do not care about what happens to the girls/women.

Countless Sudanese women have been abandoned by their husbands and sons just for being "raped" by Arabs.

And as a member of the SPLA....I can vouch for what you said about the "sexism" of the Dinka,Nuer, Shilluk men. It's HORRENDOUS, and by sheer sexism, they didn't give me my Medal of Honor----sexism is the worst disease we have in Africa.

It trumps AIDS and colorism both.


TRULY

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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And there IS a "Lost Girls" movement, AQ.

Several White Feminist organizations have been nagging these goverments for years, right along with me, to allow the 20% Quota to be lifted.




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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 09:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whoa, Kola I did not know that... I'm shocked. That's horrible. But could coming here be a way for these men to pay for what they do to women back home? I mean they really, truly don't get it easy in the US. They can't marry whomever they want. They have to go by the rules now.. I feel bad for both, Sothern Sudan men in the US and the women left behind. They're practically sharing the same pain.
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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AfricanQueen,

After all the time you've lived in this country----you have not noticed that it's OK for Michael Jordan, Kanye West and Don Cheadle to be extremely black skinned

...but not for you?

Tell me. What female "pop icon" in this country looks like you?

Alek Wek doesn't count, because she is NOT in any way a creation of THIS COUNTRY. She got her break in Europe, where it's laxer.

It amazes me that you can't SEE everything that you're witnessing.

Even your brothers in your family.....are more acceptable to the society than you and your sisters are---and it's NOT because you're women.

Haven't you noticed that?

And really. Be honest.











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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:02 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It really should not be "Lost girls"/"lost boys" movements but both. "Lost boys and girls of Sudan." Children should never be separated by gender. It should only be one title not 2. But anyway, I'm glad there's someone fighting for the girls out there.
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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:04 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with you.


MANY Sudanese men write me emails and letters daily and life is very hard for them here. Almost ALL OF THEM complain that they can't women to date them.

But I do know many who are now PAYING to have Sudanese wives brought into the U.S.

In IOWA there is a huge number who have Sudani women now. And the women come over here and become VERY LIBERATED!! It's shocking. :-)

No more village slave wife. LOL


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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We have no MAJOR FEMALE STAR/IMAGE
in America who is ALLOWED to
look like this---got these from
EUROPE.


Black


Abuk from SUDAN!---she looks
like my mother.


blackgirl

























Lauryn Hill is the closest we have...and she was by accident that FUGEES men slipped her in.


BUT A GREAT MANY MALES ARE ALLOWED TO BE THAT DARK.


With no Problems.



And "SOME" Sudanese Dinka/Nuer are learning
the culture and starting to get
plenny pussy
from these Black American women.

They just have to learn
to ACCEPT that Black American
women are not going to act
like "slave wives"....like we
do back in Africa.

Once they ACCEPT that their
Black American girlfriend can
drive a car and have her own money
----those BOYS get pussy.



But I will admitt--when a LOST BOY writes
to me saying that he's ANYWHERE NEAR
"California"
...I do not answer his mail.

LOL :-)




I am officially FRIGID.














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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:30 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I have seen that black men are beautifully represented on the screen but never really black women. I never see it the same way you see it though. But you're right. Dark skinned men like the hot Tyrese Gibson and Michael Jordan are well praised in the model and movie business more than black women that are of his color. And you're absolutely right. Women my color are usually not hired at all, but the light skinned women are, but I don't know wether to call this a racist issue or a sexist issue. Because I don't know who hires actors and models in America. Still, I'm assure that black people want the light skinned girl to represent them in America.

Shouldn't this color thing be the same as it is in Europe? Why is it different? Because Alek Wek would have never been considered to model here. In Australia also, some of my Sudanese friends and cousins girls model.

I haven't really noticed that my brothers are more accepted in society better than I am.. I really haven't lived around them long enough to see what the rest of the world thinks. But I have had arguments when they're treated better within the family, to do whatever they want to do. My brothers can marry a white girl but I'm not allowed to marry a white boy. My brother could go to the prom but I was not allowed to go to the prom. My father smiles to see my brother with an American g/f yet his horns would come out if I had an American b/f. My brothers can move out wether they are married or not. I can't.

And so, while at home I try to convince my parents that I'm just as capable as the boys. But usually their excuse for doing this to me is, "You can get raped. You're a woman. You can get pregnant, etc". When a Sudanese girl gets pregnant before marriege, it is usually a huge scandal in the community. But when a man gets another woman pregnant they quickly applause him and ask him to marry the girl.

I really never think about who's behind all this though Kola, to be honest.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola, how funny. Of course no American woman will accept a controlling African man. So the lost boys pay to bring their "slave wife" to America, but then she leaves them because she sees other women and they have more freedom.

As a kid, I saw other girls that are American, whom had more freedom than me and I found it unfair. I've always wanted to move away from home ever since Africa. I started looking at Apts at 16, just couldn't move out. Women are only prepared for marriage in the Dinka culture and not to start their own life, have their own freedoms, decide for themselves, and I'm not going to let that happen to me.
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Kola
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fuck the men, Nybi.

Once I'm rich, I'll make sure you have a way out.

Plus I'm going to get you to work for me at the company I'm starting.


ANNNNNNND

once my "frigid" period is over---which I'm sure it will end by the time I have money-----you and I are going on a "easter egg hunt" over in Europe (WINK)....and have all the fun with White men we want.

Girl, I know the SPOTZ in Italy and Greece--not to mention Sicily, my "favorite" cave. BUT Sweden is nice, too, it's just that I like my White boys darker---although, Swedish men LOOOOVE women like you. Just keep praying for Kola to hit it big.

If anybody knows how to party, it's Kola.

And you and I are FAMILY. So it's different from other board members.




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Africanqueen
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Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LMAO, Kola too funny. But I'm willing to take the free vacation so hurry up and make that cash :-).

I've been in this country 10 years. It's suicide, LOL.

I want a tour to Europe so bad. I also want to go to Australia. I hear there's no racism there. It would be so nice :-). I even have relatives and friends there so I can see them when I'm there.

I wanted to go back to Kenya too and eat all the sweet food they have there, yum, lol.

Oh and I like to party with people who love to party. I'm chicken when it comes to drinking and smoking, but I can still tag along. It's really weired I run into friends that Love partying, lol. So maybe I'm just meant to tag along with them. So I'll hit the European night clubs with you, I promise, lol. :-)
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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:56 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AQ---

it's not that there's no racism in Australia.

What it is.....is that there's so few black people, they have nothing to fear from us.


If you go to ANY NATION....say Sweden....where they have almost no Black people at all

...they LOVE black people.

Because in tiny numbers like 300 in the whole country..............you're not a threat.

Look what the Australians did to the Aborrigines--who are black in color.

They bred them OUT.

Just like America is trying to do with the Black Americans.

It only takes a few hundred years.



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Africanqueen
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:56 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was thinking about that too... there's not very many blacks in those countries..

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Blkamericanking
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 06:30 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Africanqueen,

Why would a Black American man be pissed to see a Sudanese dating his woman?. I would not be pissed because as far as i am concerned we are ALL black people, whether there are cultural differences or not. It really breaks my heart that no African country reached out to help the Lost Boys and Girls.


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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:47 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Africanqueen said:

Women my color are usually not hired at all, but the light skinned women are, but I don't know whether to call this a racist issue or a sexist issue.

Tona:

I'm reading a book by Patricia Hill Collins called "Black Sexual Politics" and in it, she describes how sexism and racism are basically the same. She takes her readers way back to explain that racism was started through the politicizing of sex, gender and sexuality. I always knew that there was a relationship, but girlfriend breaks it down. What I got from her book so far is that not only is racism and sexism two sides of the same coin, they are also responsible for what she calls "the new racism". The polarization of some of the more "exotic" blacks in the media is a part of this new racism. Black sexuality has always been exploited by whites, but since the media is the way it is today, blacks and other minorities are being sexually exploited waaaay more than they've been in the past. After reading her book it's clear that ALLLL humans who are not straight white men, are potential victims of sexism.

Tonya
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Danielle
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:07 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've heard Australia is very racist. I'm not sure so black people. And to me a racist is a racist. If it's not directed towards me, eventually it will be.
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Blkmalereading
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's a sad, but not surprising article to read about 'The Lost Boys'. A couple of years ago, I had the pleasure and pain of meeting and fellowshipping with quite a few of these young men.

What I saw then was a group of young men, many in their late teens and early 20s who have only had contact with white american christians. They were being culturally raped under the guise of friendship and God.

I would listen in horror as these beautiful blue Black boys, with shining white teeth and sad bright eyes would recall their stories in such a detached way, that I found myself asking to make sure, they were talking about these things happening to themselves and not someone else or something they read in a book. I listened to the fear and worry that they had about America. They were all very lonely and often talked about returning to their country, not having a wife or any family members. They could recite bible verses with the best of them and raved about the glory of Jesus Christ and going to heaven. (sound familiar?)

What these white people see are these examples of seemingly (better than American Blacks) disciplined young boys who were polite, gentle, kind, meek, bright, THANKFUL and 'well adjusted'. Once they become 18 they move in together, a group of boys who never had the love of anyone except what they can remember of their families. I saw them as sad and wished that I could do something 'different' for them. They were like brainwashed puppies and "I" could see the sadness in their eyes.

I'm sad, but not surprised to hear the troubles that some of them are having. We give our animals more love and attention than we do OUR children and especially our male children. Just bringing a group of boys to a foreign country and NOT thinking to place them with their own people (or people who are 'like' them) is sad. Orphaned dogs are treated better. They are given the basics: food, clothing and of course they HAVE to attend these white churches that sponsor them on a regular basis for most of these small trickets to continue to flow into their lives. They are helped to find small jobs, piled together into a apartment when they come of age and let loose. Never having someone to probably even hug them. It's almost like an experiment.

You all are right about the girls. The girls are commodities. They sell, trade the girls for money to the highest bidder. The girls are 'worth' something to that extent. They also don't want to distract these young men with women. A man who loves his woman would do anything for her: even K I L L!! They are not really 'human' so I guess it didn't dawn on them that they would come into puberty and desire what every other man wants....female attention and love. They are taught to love Jesus who can provide them with all the love that they need. When you get them away from 'their host' and they trust you enough to talk, ALL they talk about is missing their family, many of them have hopes that someone in their family is still alive and missing them. They dream and long for this homecoming and they talk about THEIR women. The longer they are here, the older they get it turns in wanting ANY woman.

I don't think it's easy as some have suggested. We are talking about blue Black young men, the kind of African that has been breeded out of African-Americans, they are not seen as desirable, are often teased in high school (by Black Americans), they are not 'hip' enough, down enough 'yet' to 'get the girls'. The dark brothers that you all say that America loves NOW, only love them because they 'have' something.....money or some type of 'extra ordinary' talent or the famed and prized phallus. ALL of these Dark men who are loved NOW, couldn't get a date or were treated badly before they made it big because of their color and ecomomic condition. These boys don't yet have the charisma, the talent, many of them are brilliant and taking courses like Math and engineering and money will probably be their only saving grace. They already see and know that about America. Those who are able to stay in school and 'make it' will hopefully survive this experiment.

These boys are suffering from trauma and loneliness. The things that no one is addressing. They all need therapy and love. Love from a Black mother, not the hands off white christian love that they have been given. Babies who are not hugged and petted....D I E!

Some African centered organization in America needs to step up and see what is happening to these boys and girls. Bring them in under their wings.

A sad situation all around, for both the girls and the boys. This would not happen to another group of people. When Russian children are abandoned people line up to adopt them, when Asian children are left in baskets stars line up to adopt them and give them a life that they couldn't even dream about. When Black children are left alone and taken from their families, they are left to fend for themselves. They are left to walk thousand of miles and turned around to walk a thousand more and placed in camps. No one comes to their rescue. No one says...awwww, those poor children, no one brings them home. No one sees the Blue Black little people with frail bodies and funny shaped heads, with hair like lambs wool and hug them......
(All Puns Intended)

I wish I had the money, power, position to do something (sigh).
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Also, AQ, the degree to which non-white-straight-males (blacks, women and other minorities) are victimized depends largely on his/her gender, race, skin color, and sexuality. I'm not even half way through Collin's book, but I'm sure this is something that she will explore.

Tonya
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:01 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blkmalereading, your post was brilliant and I was feeling everything you said, but this is the part that gets me:

We are talking about blue Black young men, the kind of African that has been breeded out of African-Americans, they are not seen as desirable, are often teased in high school (by Black Americans), they are not 'hip' enough, down enough 'yet' to 'get the girls'. The dark brothers that you all say that America loves NOW, only love them because they 'have' something.....money or some type of 'extra ordinary' talent or the famed and prized phallus. ALL of these Dark men who are loved NOW, couldn't get a date or were treated badly before they made it big because of their color and ecomomic condition.

Tonya:

But what do they do as soon as the money comes in??? They go out and find the lightest brightest woman they can marry and forget all about "THEIR WOMEN". The funny thing is that the women they end up marrying (light-bright) is the same kind of woman who wouldn't give them the time-of-day when they were broke, and in many cases, she's among the ones who were "teasing" them to begin with.

So you had me until that part. I still feel sorry for the "lost boys", but don't go there with dark black men who finally become wealthy.

FUCK THEM!!!

Tonya
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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blackmalereading,

That was brilliant!

I love you; thank you. Best post in months!!


Tonya,

I totally agree with your last statement about men like Michael Jordan who become famous. It's so tragically true----and in America, NO ONE is willing to call out these "Black American Males" on their CULT of colorism---they are far, far worse than the females who everyone scape goat and blame everything on.

I've been all around the world and I've NEVER encountered colorism so ingrained until I was submerged in the world of Black American MALES. They make black women so insecure about being "black"---because they hate blackness in a woman.










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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know what---FUCK THE LOST BOYS TOO!
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:29 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola: If you notice, we just posted at the same time. Girl, I'm sitting here RAGING MAD. He shouldn't have mentioned that in his post because now I'm like, FUCK EVERYBODY....SHIT.

Girl, I need to calm down!

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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:32 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know what---FUCK THE LOST BOYS TOO!





LOL

I understand.

I co-sign on that one, too.



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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:37 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But the good thing is.........look at

Blackmalereading

BlackAmerican King

ABM

Chris Hayden

Troy

My Sons's Father






THERE ARE A LOT OF "GOOD" BLACK MEN....and they are beginning to change things.

In order to have change....we have to make it happen.

And previously, the Darker black women have not been active in affirming themselves or standing up for themselves. If anything...the Light Skinned Sisters were the ones fighting for us and our battles (the ones who cared, which is about Half and Half).

We only really started openly discussing "colorism" as a public discussion about 10 years ago. It was taboo to talk about--you had a few people like Alice Walker bringing it up, but not too many.

So things are going to get better...if Black women demand it.

And we're the ones with the Wombs. :-)





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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:53 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola, you are right....not all black men are the same and of course things are going to change. I was so mad during my last post that I put the exclamation points where the periods should have been and vice versa. But I'm calm now, thanks.

Tonya
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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 01:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I take that back.

WEST INDIAN MEN....are the most colorstruck.


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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 04:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola:

>>So things are going to get better...if Black women demand it.>>

You can't change a person's preference. There are many light skinned men who looove dark skinned women.

I think it's understandable for people to have attractions towards people who are opposite of them...

Masculine men usually like really feminine women...tall men usually like really short women, skinny men like fat women....dark men usually like high yellow women...

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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 04:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Masculine men usually like really feminine women...tall men usually like really short women, skinny men like fat women....dark men usually like high yellow women...


And NONE of this is normal human behavior.

All of it is a result of Media Conditioning.

The entire world society was for MOST of the last 26,000 years totally different from what you described above.

But I could care less about your posts on this subject---so I won't be commenting on them further.

Nyibol and I, being from Africa, will never agree with your positions and we DO KNOW that mothers have enormous power over how their sons see things....

....and we know from that Self-hating mothers create Self-hating sons. It's in Africa, in the West Indies, in America.

When deep dark mothers begin to IDOLIZE their own beauty---as most white women do theirs----we will begin to have more of the natural love that is so present in Non-colonialized AFRICA where you could not get African men to even acknowledge that a "high yellow woman" is a black person, much less consider mating with one.

And that's the real NATURAL fact.

Dark men and High yellow women is an AMERICAN PHENOM created by SLAVERY and self-hatred. If Black people truly loved their blackness,there would be no "High yellow women"---

and someday, there won't be again.






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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 04:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was setting out to give some sudanese boys some pussy....But blkreader done fucked it all up for them!

He made me realize that they are black men, just like the rest. Now I have no sympathy.

Tonya
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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 04:35 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola:

As far as African men, I will say that I have been hit on in serious ways by African men. American black men, will often have dated many complexions of black women....

But the African men who have approached me have REALLY kind of OVER did it. I once asked this one African guy did he date other African women and he told me that he did not because he just likes everything about black american women, ie. the way we talk, dress, look...

That was kinda strange, but I don't know a lot about african cultures when it comes to complexion, so I can't go into that.

>>there would be no "High yellow women"---

and someday, there won't be again.>>

I don't know about this. My sister who is light skinned had a daughter with her dark skinned husband and although my neice has his facial features, she is still light skinned.


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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 04:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola:

One more thing:

I agree with you about this:

The African American (black american) is in a unique position.

It is rare that you see a lot of blue-black people over here.

And we all know why. Blood-lines are a bitch.

whether we like it or not we hold DNA that spans back to both Africa and whereever the white slave master was from.

So how can a son or even a close relative of mine(with me having light skin) not see beauty in what I (being a blood relative) have?

I agree with you about the African situation, but as to the American thing....it a LOT more complicated.
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 05:06 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Previously posted:

As far as African men, I will say that I have been hit on in serious ways by African men. American black men, will often have dated many complexions of black women....

But the African men who have approached me have REALLY kind of OVER did it. I once asked this one African guy did he date other African women and he told me that he did not because he just likes everything about black american women, ie. the way we talk, dress, look...

Tonya:

Some African men are just as color-struct as AA men. The only difference is that their version of being color-struct is being with an AA woman and IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT COMPLEXION SHE IS. I have been told the same thing by many African men. It's a sickness.

Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 05:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya:

>>The only difference is that their version of being color-struct is being with an AA woman and IT DOESN"T MATTER WHAT COMPLEXION SHE IS.>>

True, I think they just like the idea of being with an american black women....

It's almost like we are "mixed" to them.

....and African women are usually mad as hell about it.

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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 05:26 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Previously posted:

It's almost like we are "mixed" to them.

....and African women are usually mad as hell about it.

Tonya:

Just like how light-skinned women are now becoming furious with the fact that black men no longer want them anymore....their going after the latino, white and asian women, so I'm sure you understand (smile).

Tonya
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>>Just like how light-skinned women are now becoming furious with the fact that black men no longer want them anymore....their going after the latino, white and asian women, so I'm sure you understand (smile). >>

Not I.

I could give 2 shits about black men (who I am not phucking) are with. And that's 100% real.

And anyways, you don't have the MAJORITY of black men dating outside of the race.

Now whether they are with light skinned women more than dark skinned ones, I don't know but you probably know more about that than I do...

I haven't been paying attention, but you probably have (smile). LOL
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 06:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ten years ago, light-skinned women could care less about what dark-skinned women said about colorism and they didn't care how we felt about it either. But now that they are loosing "their men" to white, asian and latino women they're mad and they're trying to disguise their anger by directing it at us. Yall aint mad because we're talking about colorism....yall BITCHES are just MADDD!! But guess what--- I understand and whether you realize it or not, I'm on your side.

Tonya

btw, where was all that anger when it was happening to us???


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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 06:37 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So what is the problem with dark-skinned women talking about colorism....NOT BLACK MEN....COLORISM??? Since you came to this board you've been bitchin, why?

Tonya
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Actually, I don't think women who have a fufilling career, a loving man present at home, and a balanced life really gives a shit.

And you keep saying something about white, latino, asian women...but I am happily married to a dark skinned black man, so I could give a shit about these women...

When I was not married...I still had my PICK of men....as the rapper Jay-Z says....I got 99 problems but a man Has never been one!!!...

So, I've never had the venom and I've most certainly have never been mad...about what?

If it makes YOU feel better by asserting that the black man don't want the light skinned woman anymore....go right ahead...

But at the end of the day, the only women who are mad are the ones without men....and see me with MY husband....and assumes he's with me because of my skin color...

But, I'm still on your side though.

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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 06:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't you get it??

It's just not a colorism discussion. There's got to be a victim and there's got to be a villian.

Light skinned people (especially women) is usually the villian and the dark skinned person is the victim.

That shit don't sit well with me because I know dark skinned women and men who are doing their thing and got it better than me.

I know dark skinned women who have great careers and have not been held back.

But the colorism issue put light skinned blacks in a position of feeling guilty of being something we had NO control over.

I never told anyone to treat me better because of it... and if they do, is it MY fault?

If someone treated you better because you have dark skin would you tell them not to?

Just wondering?
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 07:20 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just so you'll know---I have several men and one of them happens to be black. So you're right it aint about black men. It's not about making anyone a villain either, but many light-skinned women feel that way. I don't have all day to explain colorism to you so what I suggest is that you sit back, relax and listen to what some of the women on this board have to say. I'm telling you---you can learn alot, but it's really up to you.

And to answer your question.... no it's not wrong to treat dark skin better in a community where the majority of people have dark skin.... it's natural.

Tonya
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 08:08 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Btw, if you don't fuck with us and let us do our thing, there won't have to be a villian. Think about it.

WE ARE FOR ALLLL BLACK WOMEN. Except for those who get in our way--- especially the ones who don't know what the fuck they're talking about!

Those Bitches are atrocious!!!

Tonya
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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 08:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous,

I don't have a problem with my sons marrying a "light skinned" girl.

I just don't want it to be for her "color".

My MAIN THING is that she have African hair and see herself as "black".

MANY BLACK MEN marry "yellow" women for true love and because they are good women. Ditto for dark women they marry.

I would like to see the day when ALL BLACK MEN marry us for what type of female we are----not because they're colorstruck (as so many truly are).

In California---Yellow girls can't a date either now that Black men only chase "latina", "asian" or "mixed race/biracial" women out here.

The Yellow women are facing the SAME discrimination and bad treatment. I'm talking about black women who look like T-Boz, Toni Braxton, Jill Scott and Beyonce. To me those are what yellow BLACK girls look like.

And now that Black men are saying things like---"White women just have a natural vibe with brothas."

OR, as Keenan Ivory Wayans put it, "A latina is just a lightskinned black woman."

Another black man said on BET that "Eva Longoria, Salma Hayek and Shakara are the 'PRETTIEST SISTAS' out there."


THIS SHIT IS SYSTEMATIC. They're dumping the High Yellow woman (who was their STAND-IN for White women) and they're moving up to any other NON-Black they can find. And that's what I don't want my sons to be a part of......and it comes from TRADITIONALLY placing the Light Skinned "Black" woman (Lena Horne, Halle,etc.) on a pedestal over the African-looking black women and worshipping "Light Skin".

Notice that it leads us...to whiteness.

And the REAL TRUTH, Anonymous...is that men "get along with" who they WANT to get along with.

When they WANT a woman---they make it work.

When they don't want you---they make excuses about why it CAN'T WORK.

I'm not against the Yellow sisters. I'm just demanding that they acknowledge this COLOR-HAIR-FEATURES SYSTEM and how it eventually hurts all of us who are "black" women---even the light girls.

It is not NATURAL. It's not.

Before the SLAVE TRADE...ALL black men desired and cherished their own blackness and their own reflection..the black woman. In Africa, a Black man cannot hold his head up proud until he has given birth to his BLACK SON.

And even the African men over here fronting and chasing White women, because it's cool-----they have BLACK WIVES back in Africa who give them "sons"-----and those women can't read, can't write and LIVE OFF the $20 a month they get from their husbands in America, not even knowing that he's got a white woman in the U.S.

But in the last 25 years...colorism now spreading into AFRICA itself. For the first time, we have the poorest African women perming their hair and bleaching their skin----because the Music Videos are being shipped to Africa from America and every BLACK MALE CELEBRITY we look up to.....also sends this message against Black women by always choosing and uplifting a Non-Black woman.





I was adopted and raised in family of 8 kids.

The one that I am closest to out of ALL is my sister, Spring, who is "high yellow".

I would kill anyone who said a foul word to my sister. She means everything to me and I to her.

And you would LAUGH ALL DAY if you were around us---because Spring tells me out all the time. She's like, "Bitch take your ass back to Africa."

And I cuss her back out. But we are CLOSER THAN CLOSE. It's like we were "born" together and not just raised together.

When I wrote my leading lady in "Flesh and the Devil" as being high yellow with green eyes----it was based on my sister Spring. I even named the character "RooAmber", because my sister goes crazy for my Rhubard cobbler, which I make every year just for her birthday.

People who think I'm colorstruck don't understand why my books have so many bang'n yellow girls in the story---it's because I am not coming from where they think I am coming from. I really do not dislike my yellow sisters and I have not had a hard time with "men" at all. Men have chased me all my life. The problem is....I get 150 letters per day from people around the world. MOST are dark women who go through very serious issues with color...and because I'm African, it has forced me to investigate "colorism" and take a very hard line with it.

But I truly do not dislike "light" women and MANY of my supporters and women who egg me on are light skinned sisters.

The Yam Yam.

In my books, I try to show EVERY SHADE of black woman in a positive, unified way.

And I do that on purpose.




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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 08:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous,

This woman looks an awful lot like my birth mother.

I said that she is Sudanese, but Abuk is
Ethiopian.




blackgirl




A lot of my rage---like MOST dark women---is that our beautiful BLACK mothers do not get to be movie stars or be celebrated or appreciated ("dark" women can only be shown as UGLY, FAT or OLD in the media---which is a holdover from the days when they would only let Hattie McDaniel be in films, but not a woman who looked like Naomi Campbell or Marita Golden)

TO PRESERVE AMERICAN CULTURE.

But in real life.....there are MULTITUDES of breathtakingly beautiful CHARCOAL, Chocolate, blue black and Dark Brown BLACK WOMEN. But it's "ILLEGAL" to show them on t.v. or in magazines.

THAT is colorism, sister!

It's WRONG.

And since 87% of the Black women in the U.S. are STILL "dark brown and darker".....it's not fair that 90% of the "beautiful" black women in the media are LIGHT SKINNED or MIXED. In other words---87% of us are not being represented.

There is NO SHORTAGE of equally gorgeous Dark Black women----they just don't show them, because THAT would perpetuate "Blackness" as being Beautiful.

Light skinned sisters are USED...MANIPULATED....DISTORTED by the media.....so that their beauty ASSISTS the Whites to REITERATE that "lightness, whiteness"....is better and more feminine and more desirable.


Look at that Charcoal Ethiopian woman. Doesn't she look Feminine and Sweet to you, Anonymous?

If you are a Black woman---then she is your Mother, too.

ALL BLACK WOMEN, no matter how yellow, come from that CHARCOAL woman...and you have to take up for her! Don't let these people kill our real mother.









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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 09:12 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola:

I should not have called you out and said you were jealous because that was baseless.

>>acknowledge this COLOR-HAIR-FEATURES SYSTEM >>

I acknowledge this but you mentioned something in another post about T-Boz and Chilli.

You said that even though T-Boz has lighter skin than Chilli has, but people still perceive Chilli as the "mixed" one.

That is true because of one thing(mostly).....THE HAIR TYPE.

This is not discussed by many....but what I have noticed is that blacks with long, "wavy", and less tightly curled hair are considered mixed, more than your average light skinned person.

My grandmother was a dark skinned women who people thought had to be "mixed" because her hair nearly touched her butt. So people said that she was probably half indian...

But it had nothing to do with her complexion though.

I am not here to talk shit about any dark skinned person because I have family and very close friends who I love very much who fits that description.

As a matter of fact, me and my siblings all came out looking the same (as far as features) but we were all different complexions. My sis and I have light skin, my brothers are literally tall dark and handsome.

Personally, I think it is a very complicated situation in America.
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Tonya
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 10:29 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So this shit was all about T-Boz and Chilli, huh.... fucking amazing!
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think it is very hard to control this now. As anonymous described how men and women go about dating.... she is right obviously. How does one go about changing the mind of millions of black men who love high yellow women?

I think the damage's already been done. Personally, those men can kiss my ass. I will get me a light skinned white or black man if I want one, lol.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

LOL... Within south Sudan also... the blue black men love them some brown skin girls.

So yeah. They're all the same, lol.
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Kola
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Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 11:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In Africa...

African hair (the crown) is referred to as "The Proof".

It is the proof that you are Black.

It is the proof that you are descended from the blood of Asli Nalla....the first human being.

NO OTHER RACE has this crown but us. And if they do, then it's because of Black blood.

My point was that T-Boz is lighter skinned, but she has THE PROOF on her head.

Chilli, who is dark complexioned, does not. She is HALF-CASTE. She has no crown.

These are AFRICAN standards. Although in MOST nations----T-Boz might not be called "black" either, because she is so very light.

But with a nappy head, she would be recognized, as OURS.

_____________


African Queen,


NOBODY has ever said that we can change Anybody's mind.

We can't.


THE ANSWER is to stop giving birth to these colorstruck Black children.

Don't you get it?

You talked about your father's ways the other night.

Do you want your own son to be like him?

Do you want your own son to reject and despise girls who look like him---but affirm and praise women who looking nothing like you?

WE HAVE A WOMB....and WE HAVE POWER over how we are depicted in the society.

Previously, we have NOT used that power.

Our main battle has been against RACISM....and we have fought for the rights of "THE BLACK MAN" and for his liberation.

We have never fought for "The Black Woman" and we have not challenged Colorism----we've mainly DENIED it and not even questioned it.

When we stop "oooohing and awwing over high yellow babies and give the same attention and love to BLACK babies" and the seeds of change will begin to be planted.

People are impacted MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE by (1) media images, which tell them what is acceptable, lovable, beautiful and "IN"......(2) Their parent's example and what their parents teach them.

People live their lives by those two things.

THAT should be our focus.

Not trying to change a grown man's mind. It's too late for them.

But we have to look to saving future generations from this BREEDING OUT.

The High Yellow woman is a thing of the past. Her day is over now that Black men can have REAL WHITE WOMEN, latina, Asian, Bi-racial who look white.

We have to DESTROY the SYSTEM of colorism itself.

And just like Farrakhan and so many of our elders have stated--------The womb of the Darkest Black Woman is the strongest. Her blood is the most powerful.

And when SHE wakes up....we will have a new harvest.







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Africanqueen
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:20 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

Don't worry about me, I don't think I'm giving birth to anyone anytime soon :-).

But I understand exactly what you mean though.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:25 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola: In California---Yellow girls can't a date either now that Black men
only chase "latina", "asian" or "mixed race/biracial" women out here.

Me: Kola, how true...

I also live on the boarder of Mexico, playing ball (hiding the computer, lol) I'm in the computer lab :-). But anyway, the black men who move here for whatever reason, job, school, all get plenty of light skinned latinos to date.

I even have a light skinned black sister who hasn't been dated by any black guy on the basketball team cause they all go after the mexicans and hispanics. It's so sad....
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:35 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

Do you have any examples, stories, pictures of people of my color who've tried "HOLLYWOOD" and got rejected, or could they be thinking they're too dark to fit in?

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Blkamericanking
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 01:40 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I thought most Ethiopians were mixed looking. Thanks for showing Abuk's pic. I have really learned a lot from you since i joined this baord and i hope to learn more about Africa from you.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:31 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Ethiopian model looks painted, is she? Because if you look at her eyes, they're light brown. Aren't the eyes suppose to go with the skin color? Or they must have given her contacts?
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Blkamericanking
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 03:15 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Africanqueen,

That modeal looks like she has Caucasian features. The modeal wearing the red hat has Caucasian features too. Do certain tribes in Ethiopia and Sudan have Caucasian features?
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Roxie
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 09:01 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola, first you say it's skin that dictates the true black people. Now you say the it's the HAIR? or did I misinterpret?

I'm a bit confused.
0.0'
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Roxie
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 09:03 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm definitely printing out those pictures! :D
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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:07 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ROXIE---I've always told the Cushitic principle of Blackness, which holds THE PROOF (hair) over and above the COLORING.

Tiger Woods, who has brown skin, would be considered "black", even though he is mixed---MAINLY because he still has brown skin.

That's how simplistic the Africans see it.

However, Thandie Newton, who actually IS African, is called "Half-Caste", because she doesn't have enough "like color".

Like color meaning--she has been diluted to the point where she no longer resembles the people.

But she is STILL African.

And this is what I have been trying to make people understand about OUR color system----the one that was ours BEFORE the white man.

But Americans only want to discuss their plantation color system, the one given to them by The White Man.

THE PROOF (Asli Nalla's hair) is always the most important----you came here late, so you missed our discussions about her.

ALSO...in the DISCOVERY documentary "The Real Eve"---when they speak of the "first mother" and call her "Asli"...they are speaking of Asli Nalla.

The first human being.

________________________



Black American King:

The Nilotic people are the "parent" of all the Earth Races.

They are the first race, beginning when the entire continent of Africa was called "Aithiop" (or "Ethiopia").

Nilotics are "charcoal" in color, EXTREMELY TALL with very long faces and high cheekbones.

SOME OF THEM have "stick-straight hair" and skinny noses.

Out of this race....came all other races, the FIRST ONE being the "Negroes".

So yes, there are MANY East Africans who have what you would call "European features"----but those are really Nilotic features.

For instance, "I, KOLA" received my charcoal Birth Mother's "skinny nose"----not my White Arabs father's big fat nose.
__________________________

AQUEEN-----Abuk is wearing colored contacts and a hair weave. Even though the Europeans allow her to model, she still has to be "whitened".

SAD.








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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 12:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ALSO ROXIE....

I don't know if you were here when the book came out, but you might be very interested to know this:


In my novel "Flesh and the Devil"---I used a High yellow woman with green eyes to tell the story of Colorism.

In the book...her "yellow" mother (who adored and idolized very dark chocolate people)...hates and abuses RooAmber for being "lightskinned" with green eyes.

She spoils her two Dark Chocolate kids---but holds it against RooAmber that she came out looking like HER, the mother---yellow.

Whether YOU want to acknowledge it or not....there are SOME yellow women who have actually experienced this treatment. On the one hand--they are idolized by very dark skinned men who think anything light-brite is BETTER....but on the other hand, they receive hate and rejection from Black women, even FAMILY MEMBERS, and very often......Yellow women can't stand OTHER yellow men, because they want to emerse themselves in Darker people.

No matter which side it is---it's COLORISM.


________________

On this board, we basically just talk off the top of our heads. But my WORK is very nuanced and inclusive.....and because I come from an African-Arabic background....the things I'm trying to say are often misunderstood.

I talk very BLUNT, and people attach their own meaning...what it means to them as a Black American to what I'm saying, which can sometimes make it seem as though I'm attacking them for not being "black enough".

I come from people who are authentically black on the Nile river----PURE----so of course, I can't begin to relate to this notion of American blackness. It's TOO LIGHT! :-)






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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 01:27 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya:

>>So this shit was all about T-Boz and Chilli, huh.... fucking amazing!>>

uhhhh....no this shit ain't about T-Boz and Chilli.

It's about people who think they can tallk shit about light skinned people (especially women) because some black men might find us attractive or whatever.

Personally, I think its a lot of double talk going on here....

In one breath people are saying that us high yellow girls can't get a black man because they are chasing latinos and whites.....then people are saying that black men pick us over dark skinned women.

Which one? Personally I've never had a problem getting a BLACK MAN.

Shit, the darker they are the harder they sweat me and that 100% real.

Bascially Tonya, I don't kiss nobody's ass. I don't care if you're blue-black and can't find anyone to fuck you...if that same person comes at me sideways they will be straightened out.

Point blank.

So, THAT'S what it's about sweetie. (You're cute) LOL
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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 01:30 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another thing Tonya:

>>And to answer your question.... no it's not wrong to treat dark skin better in a community where the majority of people have dark skin.... it's natural.>>

If you actually agree with this then you should understand why white people hate blacks in america.

There are wayyy more whites than blacks in america so you should understand why white people can identify and accecpt lighter skinned blacks more....we look more like them.

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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 01:44 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola:

I really don't get what your position is.

In one post you mention something about one day there will be no more LIGHT SKINNED people...which implies that light skin is a measure of "purity".

Now you've said that HAIR (which I agree in part) is the factor that determines.

The two pics you posted are POOR examples of what african beauty is really based on.

The women with the red hat would be considered pretty because she has very "european" features. Very keen nose, very thin lips, etc. Do the majority of african woman have fine, keen features?

In the second pic, that woman has HAZEL eyes which makes her really stand out. Do the majority of african women gave hazel eyes?

Are those two women a representative for the average african woman??

Just wondering.
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Tonya
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:05 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

previously posted:

It's about people who think they can tallk shit about light skinned people (especially women) because some black men might find us attractive or whatever

Tonya:

Well, you're in the wrong place because this is not that kind of forum. We don't talk shit just for the purpose of talking shit. We have well thought out conversations about Colorism and other related subjects (which you obviously know nothing about). You're all about talking shit and taking things the wrong way. You really are in the wrong place.

previously posted:

In one breath people are saying that us high yellow girls can't get a black man because they are chasing latinos and whites.....then people are saying that black men pick us over dark skinned women.

Which one?

Tonya:

It's both.... dumb ass!! Which further proves that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about....

You should try one of those light-skin vs. dark-skinned sites where people talk dumb shit and fight each other all day. That's obviously what you are about. But what you don't understand is that we're not like that.

And honestly, no disrespect.


Tonya
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Tonya
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

btw I don't give a fuck about white people. And you're right-- they should love their skin more than anyone else's

Tonya
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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous,

It seems to me....that if we're going to campaign for the ACCEPTANCE of people with charcoal skin (as the two women in the photos)---then OBVIOUSLY we're going to have to use the most Non-threatening, White-looking images of Charcoal women....FIRST.....to make it "acceptable".

Again, their features are more "NILOTIC" than European. But Black Americans still don't "Grasp" what Nilotic and Negro people are.

I posted photos of BOTH groups to demonstrate that European looks have an origin-----that origin being African Nilotic looks--East African.

ALL PHENOTYPES--Negro, European, Asian, Indian---come from the Nilotic People. The Negro is the first child of the Nilotics.

BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU "COME FROM" THOSE PEOPLE....does mean that you still are. And that's where people run into trouble with the indigenous African...attempting to come in looking like WHITES and claim they're "just as black as we are" and What not.

See the thread called "ATTENTION: Public Enemy" for the Pictures of both groups.

The Black Americans come from....The West African Kingdoms, the Negro People.


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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's the link:

http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2152/6923.html?1125162883

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Tonya
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 02:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BEAUTIFUL PICTURES, KOLA.... ABSOLUTELY BREATHTAKING!
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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 04:30 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya:

>>We have well thought out conversations about Colorism and other related subjects (which you obviously know nothing about).>>

NOBODY on the board knows it all. Sorry. People on here are giving their opinions about THEIR own personal reality.

>>It's both.... dumb ass!! Which further proves that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about....>>

And you know what the fuck you're talking about? I know several dark skinned women who absolutely have no problem with black men who have a preference for light skinned women. So I'm sure they would tell you to get over it and perhaps investigate other issues in your life such as weight, your general attitude, lifestyle that may contribute to black men not preferring you.

>>And honestly, no disrespect.>>

Ditto.




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Tonya
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 04:42 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anonymous,

What you're not understandig is that it's not about "getting a man". That's not what this colorism discussion is all about and ,frankly, almost any women can "get a man". You seem to think that we (dark-skinned women) are bitter at light-skinned women because we can't get black men. As far as I know, that's not true for most dark women. All of the dark-skinned women that I know have men (and really good ones at that). Many of us feel less valued than other women, but that hasn't stopped us from getting black men. Our arguement, as far as colorism is concerned, is about us not being represented like we should be and that we no longer want to live in communities where dark skin is devalued. We see this as a sickness and we discuss ways to deal with it. So it has very little to do with getting a man. Since you've come here, however, you've been telling us how you and your man are getting along and how all the girls are jealous of you. We're happy for you and we're not one of those "girls" who are jealous of you.... we're grown women who lead satifying lives with the men and families that we love dearly. So you see---the things that you're talking about is of no relevance to us.

It appears that there is a part of you that is here to learn and maybe there are some things that you can teach us, so please give us the opportunity to learn whatever you're willing to teach. But just keep in mind that we're a bunch of grown women who don't have time for the dumb shit. We're not here for that. This is Kola's board but I think it's safe for me to say that we're here to share, learn and respectfully disagree. Having said that, I'm hoping that you'll please forgive me if I came off as being disrespectful in my last post.

Tonya

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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 05:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

NOTE FROM KOLA:

I have NO PROBLEM with posters

(1) disagreeing with me

(2) calling me names like "bitch", "African bootyscratcher", etc.


THAT IS FINE....but let's relate it to the TOPIC being discussed and not make it a part of the I HATE KOLA type threads that attack my mother, origins, etc.

Everyone here has FREEDOM to tell me off, totally disagree...Cynique, Moonsigns and others have done so for YEARS.

But please---"cuss me out" regarding the TOPIC being discussed.

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Roxie
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Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 11:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola:
--Whether YOU want to acknowledge it or not....there are SOME yellow women who have actually experienced this treatment.--

I don't even remember saying that. I think you're confusing me w/ Tonya or Blkamericanking.

Kola, before I knew you existed, I shared 95% of your views (present topics included). It's clear you will never realize it, I've given up trying to show you that.
[sigh]

Anyway, in relation to one of you're posts, when people in my area see a black person with defined nose and thin lips they assume that that person was mixed. But I never saw it that way. When I look in the mirror and the faces of my mother and grandfather, I always wondered whether the indian blood was super-dominant or if our african side was nilotic.

It would explain why there's so many tall ppl in the family! :-)
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Roxie
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 12:03 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola, so that youre aware, I do have your book. However I have to finish one of the three books I'm already reading before I get to yours. That allright?

Okay,here's my thought:
IMHO, biracial people would have a better experience under the african color system. whether they're considered white, black, or red, they are still family among those who love them. I'm looking more and more through ther perspective of color and it's clear that it benefits more people than just europeans. And black skinned peoples definetly get their fair share. There's no hierarchy nor social division among color. Sounds perfect to me. :-)

Also I DO believe Brazil has a color system similar to this. Just a BIT.
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Kola
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 12:54 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Roxie, I was not speaking to you when I wrote this:


--Whether YOU want to acknowledge it or not....there are SOME yellow women who have actually experienced this treatment.--

I was showing you something I wrote on another board to "Public Enemy", our new poster :-)

LOL





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Africanqueen
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 06:52 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whoa, whoa, LOL..

Girls, I had at least 100 or more msgs in my email just from the kool room, lol.

Tonya,

You better keep tellin anonymous that nobody is jealous :-).

Damn.... some of these posts have been kinda dumb too.

Who are all these dummies? Who the fuck is yahoo and somaliland, etc, "Truth teller" ?????????? LMAO.

Kola, are you ok? You should get all this information and write a BOOK!!!! lol.
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Tonya
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 01:37 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AQ,

This quote pretty much says what she's about:

Bascially Tonya, I don't kiss nobody's ass. I don't care if you're blue-black and can't find anyone to fuck you...if that same person comes at me sideways they will be straightened out.



It's about wanting to pick a fight with a "blue-black" woman....which is Why I sugessted that she visit another site:


You should try one of those light-skin vs. dark-skin sites where people talk dumb shit and fight each other all day. That's obviously what you are about. But what you don't understand is that we're not like that.

If I were you, AQ, I wouldn't waste too much time arguing whith her.

Tonya





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Tonya
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 01:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My bad, I meant to say "suggested".
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Roxie
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Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 06:42 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

--I was showing you something I wrote on another board to "Public Enemy", our new poster --


Oops. -_-'
[curls up in a corner extremely embarrassed]


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Africanqueen
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 02:50 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

Don't worry, not wasting anymore time :-).
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:41 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good!
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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 12:09 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm NOT here to argue!!!

However, it seems like you guys want me to cause you keep me on your finder tips. lol

Tonya:

We've already had our words and it over. I'm not here to fight, but I'm not the kind of person who runs from one. My roots must be Zulu. Just kidding.

AQ;

The same goes for you. I'm not on that. Please stop saying things concerning me when there is no situation to talk on.

Thanks in advance.
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Sudan
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Posted on Monday, April 03, 2006 - 06:16 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First of all, let's set the record straight in regards to the Lost Boys of Sudan. They were selected for resettlement to the US in a refugee resettlement program established by the UNHCR and the US government. Their names were selected randomly in a lottery type drawing and posted in the camp on a large board. Yes, only 85 Lost Girls came to America that year, versus 3800 Lost Boys, but the Lost Boys had no choice in the matter Believe me, if they did, they would have gladly brought the women with them. Many left their wives and children behind in order to come to America so that they could work and provide for them.
When the children first arrived at the camps in Ethiopia, the boys were separated into "boys only" areas of the camp. According to Sudanese culture this was not permissible for the girls, who in turn were assimilated into foster families or families of their surviving relatives. Sudan still utilizes a dowry system in marriage, making the foster families reluctant to release the girls to be relocated to the US, knowing that in doing so, they would relinquish all hopes of obtaining dowry money for them. It may seem appalling to us as Americans that they receive money for the girls once they are promised in marriage, but in most cases this is the only money these families, who live in refugee camps and are starving, will ever earn. Their lives are dependent on it. I don’t believe in this system, but they do and it’s one that’s also practiced once they come to America. Many of the girls in America have become liberated and no longer participate in this ritual. However, many still do of their own accord. In order to participate in the resettlement program you had to be an orphan, which the girls were no longer considered to be once they were assimilated into other families. It was not a political campaign by the white people, or exclusion by the Lost Boys. I might also add that the agencies that brought the Lost Boys to America are made up primarily African Americans/foreigners not white Americans.
In regards to the white women who took the boys in, thank God they did! The African American churches and people for the most part wanted nothing to do with them. When one large African American Church in the South was asked to step in and mentor the Lost Boys they responded by saying, “The Africans in Africa are a lot different than the Africans in America.” To which the white woman asking them for help replied, “You don’t think their different than the white Americans? It hasn’t stopped us from helping them!” An African American man in Washington state went to his African American church seeking help and was told, “We have enough problems of our own with out bringing these young men into our church.” Perhaps if they were surrounded by white women as one of your posts suggests it may be because they were the only one’s truly reaching out to them. I recently took one of the Lost Boys to the home of my African American neighbor in an effort to hook them up with a responsible leader in the African American Community. Before we left, the lost boy, who has now been here almost five years said, “This is a most wonderful day! I asked him what he meant and he replied, “For the first time since my arrival to the US, I have been invited into the house of someone with the same color of skin as my own.” How sad is that?! I am not making this up!!
In regards to the problems that a FEW of them have experienced since arriving to America, they have endured things that you and I can never imagine. Many suffer from post- traumatic stress and depression. In their culture, you are looked down upon if you seek treatment in a mental health facility, not that our government or other institutions have ever offered it. I am not trying to bash anyone, truly I’m not. I just think we should get all the facts straight before pointing any fingers. I hope this helps to clear up any discrepancies. For anyone interested in reading the true story about the Lost Boys of Sudan, I suggest you read “The Journey of the Lost Boys” by Joan Hecht. It tells their complete story from beginning to end. It may change your opinion about many things, perhaps even your outlook on life.

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