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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 10:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FROM THE ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION:
_____________

"Black rejection of gays lethal"

by Cynthia Tucker

Published on: 06/19/05

black couple

Black Americans represent only 12 percent of the population, but we account for more than half of all new cases of HIV/AIDS. That frightening fact was one of the headline statistics to emerge from a conference in Atlanta last week held by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The highest rate of infection in the country occurs among bisexual black men. And that has implications for black women, who are 19 times more likely to be infected than white women. That's because so many black men have unprotected sex with other men but then conceal that fact and have unprotected sex with women, too.

gad

Yet, there has been little activity that would suggest a crisis, especially among those activists who can usually be counted on to draw attention to the suffering of black Americans. Where are the rallies and town hall meetings, the urgent press conferences, the demands for more money for research and prevention? The usual suspects — Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the leadership of the NAACP — have had little to say about a plague spreading like wildfire.

Perhaps that's because they'd have to aim their criticism within, not just at the irresponsible sexual behavior that spreads HIV but also at the demoralizing prejudice against gays that shares the blame. Black Americans harbor a profound homophobia that assists the spread of HIV by driving men to have sex with other men "on the down low."

Of course, white America shares that prejudice. You only have to recall the outing of former New Jersey Gov. James McGreevey to remember that some gay white men also engage in surreptitious gay sex and expose their wives and girlfriends to HIV. But black Americans are far more vulnerable in so many ways — including access to health care — that homophobia does more damage.

Some sociologists and other observers believe that gay or bisexual black men are more afraid to come out of the closet than whites because they already face racial discrimination and are reluctant to take on the added burden of homophobia. After all, they'd face that in their own homes and churches.

Atlanta writer E. Lynn Harris, who rocketed to fame and fortune with a series of spicy novels about black men who secretly have sex with other men, wrote in Essence: "The truth is that most brothers who are attracted to men are desperately afraid of revealing it. . . . Many . . . fear that . . . they'll be drummed out of their families, destroying their only safe haven in an already unwelcoming society."

Though AIDS researchers have suspected for years that a culture of clandestine gay sex was helping to fuel the epidemic, the "down low" syndrome has only recently become widely known. Last year, J.L. King wrote a book — "On the Down Low: A Journey Into the Lives of 'Straight' Black Men Who Sleep with Men" — about his secret life. And Essence, a magazine oriented toward black women, has published several pieces about the down low phenomenon.

But those revelations have produced more recriminations than introspection. Some Essence letter writers were furious that the magazine dared broach the subject.

"A brother writes a book and goes on Oprah warning sisters about men who are infecting them with AIDS. This is pointing fingers at black men, who aren't the only people living on the down low," wrote one. Another said: "How dare you print an article shaming our people? [The article] misrepresented the black male, and [it] was repulsive and ignorant."

The gay-bashing from black clergy continues unabated, as well. In December, a leading black Atlanta minister, Bishop Eddie Long, staged a march to highlight his opposition to gay marriage. He attracted thousands of black marchers, including the Rev. Bernice King, daughter of slain civil rights leader the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. (By contrast, his widow, Coretta Scott King, has been among the rare voices condemning black homophobia.)

Fear. Hatred. Secrets and lies. That's the sort of climate in which HIV thrives.

• Cynthia Tucker is the editorial page editor. Her column appears Sundays and Wednesdays.

__________________
THE VILLAGE VOICE


"Gay Blacks Choosing Interracial"

by Brad Sears

inter. couple

If you see a black man and a white man touching anywhere other than a sports venue in the United States, most likely they're lovers. Or so I've always joked. Well, actually, always assumed. Straight men in this country still rarely stray across the black-white divide when looking for friendship, while for gay men race has more often been a lure than an obstacle.
Black and white gay men seem not just to be together, but more prominent than ever—from the sexy pair on Six Feet Under to Lawrence and Garner, the two whose sex life the Supreme Court glowingly affirmed when it declared sodomy laws unconstitutional. This summer, New York City's Men of All Colors Together (MACT/NY) and the National Association of Black & White Men Together (BWMT) will celebrate their 25th anniversaries.

While black-and-white couples remain rare in the U.S., a new analysis of Census 2000 data indicates that same-sex cohabiting couples are much more likely to be interracial than their different-sex counterparts.

The study, by UCLA School of Law's Williams Project, reveals that 12 percent of gay couples are mixed compared with 7 percent of straight ones. This difference holds up when you control for age, education, and urban living, factors that correlate with interracial coupling and distinguish gay from straight. The bulk of these couples are Latino-white (43 percent), distantly followed by black-white (14 percent), Asian Pacific Islander-white (11 percent), and black-Latino (3 percent). This pretty much mirrors the breakdown for straight couples, except that significantly more interracial gay couples than straight are black-white (14 percent versus 9 percent).

Why do gays engage in more mixed-race loving? Well, as a WGM (discounting my Native American grandfather and occasional crushes on the opposite sex) who has coupled with BGMs (discounting those who were actually biracial and the one who just married a woman), my initial response was that we are less prejudiced. Having overcome one form of bigotry, our eyes open to the irrationality of others.

But then this Christmas, guess who? My sister brought her black boyfriend home. Sitting with my black boyfriend, I started to get the creeps. Growing up in Missouri, my best friend had siblings who all married blacks. I had dismissed their partnering choices as a manifestation of the hyper-sexuality that whites in this country have projected onto blacks. Was I no better? Even after all those African American studies courses in college?

Come to think of it, given my friends' reactions to my partners, I can't say the LGBT community goes easy on interracial couples. Or maybe I just don't understand the more positive nuances of "dinge queen." Even friends who haven't directly criticized my partner choices hardly let them go unnoticed. Most dismissively generalize that I'm "into black men" based on a sample of one.

And I can't say my responses to them indicate an untroubled mind. When I was younger, I'd defensively counter with an exaggerated list of my white partners. Later, I deployed the model-U.N. defense: "But I've dated Asians, Latinos, and a member of the Andorran petite nobility!" More recently, I quietly but firmly state that surely their exclusive same-race dating pattern requires as much interrogation as mine.

As long as I'm confessing, I've always judged BWMT the way my friends judged me. I've never hesitated to join a group organized around same-sex loving. So what's my problem with one organized around different-race loving?

Maybe our community's race-based preferences are as suspect as my friends assume. Could it be that a larger percentage of gays than straights are inclined to get off on racial-sexual stereotypes just like a larger percentage live a life of leather? Thumb through the personal ads in any gay rag and you'll see we're not bashful about cataloging our desires with labels like Big Black Top, Hot Latino, White Bottom, and Submissive Asian.

When you divide the boys from the girls, Census 2000 data indicate that gay men's partner choices account for more of the difference between queer and straight interracial coupling. This may be because the dominant gay male culture exaggerates the broader culture's definition of whiteness as beauty. I attribute this, like most bad things, to gay porn.

According to John R. Burger's exhaustive study (the poor guy studiously watched thousands of videos) One-Handed Histories: The Eroto-Politics of Gay Male Video Pornography, until 1980 our porn reflected our rainbow—race, age, hairiness, and all. Then came the VCR and bam!, a couple of guys in the Valley monopolized gay video production. As it turns out, they both dug young white jocks and force-fed us their preference for the next decade. Today, we're all lifting, waxing, and Botoxing like mad.

OK, it may not be completely their fault, but the dominance of the porn star look could lead more gay men of color to prefer whites over each other. Census data provide some support for this: Blacks, Latinos, and API gay men have higher rates of out-coupling than their straight counterparts. The most extreme example: 40 percent of API gay men out-couple, compared to 11 percent percent of API married men.

In fact, it may be that we have more interracial relationships not because we're less racist but because we've yet to face the real race taboo: marriage. Studies of unwed interracial hetero couples indicate that concern about their families' prejudice and possible discrimination against their unborn children are the main reasons they don't marry.

Census data confirm mixed-race couples are less likely to be married than same-race couples. When you separate straight couples into the married and unmarried, the unmarried are twice as likely to be interracial (14 percent versus 7 percent). Which means that unmarried (by definition in 2000) same-sex couples have no greater propensity to interracially couple than unmarried straights.

Here too, it appears, "calling it marriage" matters. Until gay men and lesbians have equal access to marriage and child raising, we won't really know if we'll do any better than the straights.

At bottom, choosing a mate is a highly individualized and muddled process. While a racial fetish or color blindness may get you from the bar to the bedroom, it's not going to get you through the drive home from Thanksgiving with his resentful maiden aunts. The same-sex census couples are cohabiting after all, and more than a quarter of them have been together for over five years.

Instead of homosexuality heightening racial tolerance or racial-sexual fantasies, I think our greater propensity to interracially couple is due to our smaller population size and our shared queer experience.According to Rachel F. Moran in her book Interracial Intimacy: The Regulation of Race and Romance, straights (she never mentions same-sex couples) have been slow to couple across race lines because our society is still so racially segregated. If they don't meet at work or in their grocery stores or bars, how can they hook up?

Historically, gays just haven't had the numbers to live apart. Using the best estimates available, there are about 281 million of them and 6 million of us. We are more likely to interracially couple for the same reason different-sex Hawaiian couples (a whopping 30 percent) do. Because of our limited and somewhat isolated pool, we're thrown together more and don't have as much latitude to exercise our same-race preferences.

Even if straights were thrown in one another's way more, they wouldn't have nearly as much to talk about. Whether swapping coming-out, HIV infection, or recovery stories, we have shared experiences that cut across racial lines. Gay proms and student groups aside, most of us have lived lives that distance us from our racial communities and pull us toward each other. And for some of us, particularly whites who tend to take whiteness for granted, sexual orientation is more central to our identity than race.

The summer I worked in Greenville, Mississippi (civil rights, of course), just one month after coming out, illustrates my points. There were no gays in Greenville and nightlife revolved around the gas station that sold Slurpees. Not a good location for a gay awakening. Then suddenly, at midsummer, my employer made a crack about the town's whistling, black homeless man. Turns out "Pepsi" was Greenville's only known homosexual. We never hooked up, but that may be because I never saw him again—despite my vigilant lookout. As my employer's jokes kept rolling, I felt closer to the vanished Pepsi than anyone else on that mosquito-encrusted delta. Fifteen years later, I still feel a tie between Pepsi and me.

OK, maybe Greenville is extreme. But according to demographer Gary Gates, Census 2000 identified same-sex couples in all but a handful of U.S. counties (mostly in Nebraska) no matter how unpopulated. And even smaller cities have a limited number of gay institutions that serve to corral us together.

In Kansas City in the '80s, there was only one good gay dance club, the Edge. So we all went there: lesbians and gay, black and white, young and old, the trannies and the wheelchaired. My interracial dating began at the Edge. While I was clinging to my goth "girlfriend" and trying to look world-weary at 17, a black boy strode over and asked, "So, are you gay?"

"No."

"Too bad."

The idea that someone could be disappointed that I was not gay sparked a revolution in my worldview and self-image.

While our limited numbers and shared experience seem the most compelling explanation for our greater propensity toward mixed-race coupling, our behavior once we get to the big cities is not encouraging. The moment we reach critical mass, we resegregate.

Here in New York, to shuttle between Sprung, Papi-licious, Habibi, G, and the Web is to move between worlds.

This spring, Badlands, a bar in San Francisco's Castro district, was accused of scrutinizing the bags and IDs of black patrons more closely than those of whites. This is the very problem that led to BWMT's creation in 1980.

I'm not saying we haven't come a long way. But being gay is not do-it-yourself sensitivity training. Ironically, the more political progress we achieve—the easier it is to be out—the more our rainbow may be in danger. As we become more like, and liked, by straights, we risk losing one of the forced treasures of being small and apart: those dancefloors, meeting rooms, and parades where we became people of all colors together.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brad Sears lives in Los Angeles and teaches sexual orientation and disability law at UCLA School of Law.




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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 10:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**I don't buy this whole "down low" epidemic--that there are more gay and bisexual BLACK men than WHITE and LATINO....and I don't believe the AIDS problem in the Black community is caused by Bi-sexual or Gay black Men.

I believe that the Hip Hop culture---which Big-Ups young black men based on how many "bitches" they can fuck is the real true culprit, along with the cataclysmically low self-esteems of todays young black women.

Young STRAIGHT black "jocks and thugs" constantly boast about all the pussy they've scored in a given month----and there have been several cases (in Seattle and N.Y. State) where Black Men had knowingly given the AIDS virus to 20 White women each and were Prosecuted.

These men were straight and were serial sex predators...but only got in trouble when they started serially infecting White women.

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roXie
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Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 11:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, that super-macho hip-hop image is god-awful and keeps older white people in fear of young black men,even the good men. On the other hand however,other blacks (especially practicing christians) still give into the eurocentric view of homosexuality as sinful and degenerate.
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Kola
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Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 11:26 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're right, Roxie.

Homophobia is most definitely a Eurocentric and Muslim fear factor.

For the life of me, I can't understand the fear of it----if it's not a part of you in some way.

And I believe that Black Men are being giving yet another FALSE stigma---because Whites don't want BM sleeping with WW. So they've come up with this bullshit about the "down low".

Black Women are being infected with AIDS because of the rabid, over-zealous practices of PIMP DADDIES and other "Playa-Playas" who have 5 kids by 5 different women and run the pipe up in anything they can get.

They practice SERIAL SEX on black women.



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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 07:42 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ladies,

I believe both you and the article may be correct: HIV is being spread both by irresponsible DL/closet gay/bisexual men and by PIMP DADDY, Playah-Playah types. I don't know if there's any way of assessing which of the former and latter classifications are greater contributors to the progression of HIV. But I'm almost certain there's some overlap between the 2.

But just because one's gay/bisexual doesn't mean he must/should deceptively marry and engender children with a woman while having unprotected sex with others, be they male or female. The alleged homophobia (which I believe is largely overblown) provides NO justification for a man to behave so callously selfish/irresponsible.

Perhaps the only protection from a PIMP DADDY, Playah-Playahs is for women to figure out EARLY who/what they are...and AVOID having sex with them! Or ladies, if you’ve just gottah do’em, make him wear a condom...or YOU wear one.

Lastly, an important part of the problem that’s been exclude is some Black men become (either via volition or coercion) prison homosexuals and either acquire HIV in prison or via irresponsible post-prison homosexual behavior then spread it to women.

Considering the exorbitant number/percentage of Black men who are incarcerated, this homo-convict element must NOT be excluded from the AIDS discussion.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 09:30 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The extent to which HIV is transmitted through penile-vaginal sex is vastly overrated (at least in cases where the vaginal area has not been compromised through injury, ritual cutting, STD, etc.) The vagina is designed to pass a baby through and is very muscular.

And woman to man transmission (again, unless the penis is compromised, for example, through active herpes outbreak) is even more rare.

A far greater cause for the transmission in our community is IV drug use and needle sharing. As hard as it is for us to face sexual crises in our community, it is as hard for us to address this continuing drug abuse crisis.
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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 09:35 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'Vette,

I agree the likelihood of HIV being transmitted via needle exchange is MUCH higher than via ANY form of sexual discourse.

HOWEVER, how do you account for the exorbitant increase of HIV infection amongst Black women?

Are you inferring that a HIGH percentage of those sistahs are needle-swapping intravenous drug users?
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 09:46 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are you inferring that a HIGH percentage of those sistahs are needle-swapping intravenous drug users?

A lot more than we are willing to see. I have read articles about folks writing stories about the "Black feminization" of HIV/AIDS purposefully working to get stories of nice, faultless, middle-class Black women to do their stories on. I guess current and former IV drug users aren't thought to be "sympathetic" characters enough for the general Essence/Jet/Ebony audience.
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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:07 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'Vette,

Interesting...'

I think you may have something there.

But why would responsible people intentionally exclude this most essential point from being made?

Wouldn't it be better for all of us that the truth be told about this drug element of the HIV problem. Wouldn't that knowledge help us to more effectively arrest HIV infection?
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Kola
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:03 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My point, ABM...is that I do not believe that there is a SURPLUS of "gay/bisexual black men" that exists in our group---and not amongst Whites and Latins.

The FACT is....about 10% of every group of Race's Men are either "Gay", "Bi-sexual" and "Transgendered".

Now to suddenly claim that we have an EXTRA 20 to 30% of Black men who "for sheer freaky fun" enjoy fucking other men while having relationships with Black women-----I don't buy it.

This whole "DOWN LOW" is a ruse, because Whites want to scare their White daughters of being sexual with black men---especially since being worshipped by a black guy has become the White woman's ultimate "Reward"..........for being White.

WHAT I SEE WITH MY "EYES"....is one particular group of Black Males (the Hip Hop Pimp Daddy Crowd)----fucking, indiscriminately, any and everything that moves.

Including I.V. Drug Users of all races.

There is also an OVERWHELMING surplus of single Black Females---women who are often desperate and don't have dates/boyfriends.....these women and GIRLS often times find themselves the easy marks of "slick-talking" fuck-a-boo boys.

If anything....

there's a BLACK FEMALE DOWN LOW---of black women (usually very dark) who can't get men, because of the colorist standard in our society----and become LESBIANS so that they can have normal sex and romantic experiences.

This is very real. And NEVER talked about.

I get COUNTLESS letters from young black women all around the country telling me that they "go with girls", because they've waited and waited and no men want them, there's a shortage, etc.



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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:43 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I agree there's no SURPLUS of inherent homosexual inclination amongst Black males. Yes. This may in part a subtler form of demonizing of Black men.

And I am inclined to concur the Playa-Playas are probably doing more damage to Black women than DL'ers.

HOWEVER, I think the high incarceration rate of Black men is engendering an artificially created undercurrent of homosexuality amongst Black men. And THAT could be manifesting in the (alleged) Black male DL and HIV issue.

Also, the disease-spreading Playa-Playa's are empowered to wreck havoc amongst vulnerable, desperate sistahs in part because so MANY brothers are messed up...and locked up.

As long as HIV/AIDS rages through our community, suspicions - fact/fiction - will abound.


And you're right. the Black FEMALE DL phenomenon is REAL and GROWING.
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Mahoganyanais
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Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.newyorkblade.com/2004/6-25/locallife/main/black.cfm
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Kalydosus
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:04 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If anything....

there's a BLACK FEMALE DOWN LOW---of black women (usually very dark) who can't get men, because of the colorist standard in our society----and become LESBIANS so that they can have normal sex and romantic experiences.

This is very real. And NEVER talked about.

I get COUNTLESS letters from young black women all around the country telling me that they "go with girls", because they've waited and waited and no men want them, there's a shortage, etc.

This is complete Bull Shit!! Those women are lesbians because they are lesbians. You always try to blame any little disfunctionality of Black women on Black men. What if the gay Black men said the same about Black women would you accept this as the truth? And before you start spreading more B.S about 'oh it's the Black man who creates and perpetuates this colorist hierarchy and uses it to subjugate all these poor innocent Black women crap' you forget that it is the woman who chooses the man in a relationship, not the other way around.

By the way before you even go there, yes I'm a Black man, married to a Black woman...not mixed, or yellow or White women.
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 11:49 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No this is NOT complete bullshit.

Maybe you should become a Black Woman or talk to a few black lesbians---or become a black author who gets tons of mail from young black girls.

Oh--and yeah--India Arie can just walk up to a group of Black Men and pick one. SURE SHE CAN.

But that BLACK MAN will still end up picking Eva Longoria right??? Regardless of whether a black woman picked him or not.

Looks to me like YOU'RE the one who's full of shit.

Yes, I always blame you sorry motherfuckers.

Now go chase your Indian Sqaw--so you can morph into a dead man.

Dweedle-dick.




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Jmho
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:02 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvettep wrote:
The extent to which HIV is transmitted through penile-vaginal sex is vastly overrated (at least in cases where the vaginal area has not been compromised through injury, ritual cutting, STD, etc.)

I just read an article last week regarding the new information released by CDC.

The link: http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=1205&topicid=27


HIV: Women's HIV Infections Primarily From Sex, Not Drugs
By Ed Susman, MedPage Today Staff Writer

ATLANTA, June 16-Woman have become far more likely to contract HIV by having sex with a partner who is already infected than with contaminated needles used in drug abuse, CDC researchers reported here.

They noted a dramatic change in 20 years from the early days of the HIV scourge. At that time, about 53% of women became infected via injection drug use and about 15% were infected through sex. The rest were infected by transfusions or the mode of infection was unknown.

In 2003, however, about 71% of women with HIV were infected through heterosexual contact, Lisa Fitzpatrick, M.D., a CDC epidemiologist, reported at the National HIV Prevention Conference here. Nearly all the rest were infected by drug abuse practices.

In a report on how HIV affects women, Dr. Fitzpatrick and colleagues examined data on women and AIDS -- especially African American women and Latin women.

"Heterosexually active black and Latina women are disproportionately impacted by the HIV epidemic," Dr. Fitzpatrick said. About 67% of the women living with HIV in the United States are African Americans, and 16% are Latina. About 16% of infected women are Caucasian. Native American and Pacific Islanders make up the remaining 1%.

She said that most of the new infections among women with HIV occur in the south. That region is home to 29% of all the women in the nation, but is also where 76% of women with new HIV infections live.

Dr. Fitzpatrick said the high HIV rates correlate with the highest poverty rates, the most uninsured population, and the area with the fewest high school graduates.

In other studies, researchers reported a way of slowing the epidemic through interventions aimed at women.

Researchers in Florida performed HIV-testing on women incarcerated in local jails in Florida and discovered that of the 515 women who were pregnant, 3.7% were HIV-positive, said Frances Walker, the perinatal HIV prevention coordinator in the Bureau of HIV/AIDS of the Florida Department of Health.

The program identified 19 women with HIV infection who were enrolled in the Targeted Outreach for Pregnant Women Act and were given prenatal care upon release from jail. Of the 16 women who have so far given birth, one child was born with infection.

Nationwide, women who do not receive prenatal care and are treated emergently at the time of childbirth have a 10% to 14% risk of transmitting virus to their newborn, said Stephanie Sansom, Ph.D., health service researcher at the CDC's National Center for HIV, STD and TB.

"If we can get women to adhere to antiretroviral three-arm combination therapy, we can reduce transmission to less than 2%," Dr. Sansom said.

Another report found that an interventional program in HIV-positive women who experienced childhood sexual abuse appears to convince these women to pursue safer sexual practices and to adhere more to the medications.

Gail Wyatt, Ph.D., professor of clinical psychology at the University of California Los Angeles, enrolled 147 minority women. They were divided into two groups: One group receiving appropriate literature. A second group received an intensive, 11-week program explaining the dynamics of childhood sexual abuse and its long term impact, especially as it pertains to sexual conduct as an adult.

She said that women who took the course reduced their unsafe sexual conduct by about 75% compared with a 50% reduction among the women just given literature, a difference that reached statistical significance at the p = .009 level.

"Women who attend seven or more of the sessions also significantly (p = .044) increased their adherence to HIV medications," Dr. Wyatt said.

However, the impact of the intervention dissipated after six months. He said she thinks that monthly follow-up "booster" sessions could make a further difference in maintaining the change in behaviors.

Dr. Wyatt noted that reduction of unsafe sexual behaviors on the part of the HIV-positive.






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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:07 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kalydosus,

I agree to a large degree, a lesbian is a lesbian.

HOWEVER, within many of us, sexuality can be a bit more fluid/dynamic (that's why you have bisexuals).

And SOME women who've adopted same-sex relationships might not have if they were in different conditions, one of such being a greater availability of Black men.

Cause let’s face facts here:
@ Black men date/marry interracially more than do Black women.
@ BM are being prosecuted/incarcerated at EXORBITANT rates.
@ Black women are outpacing BM in schooling, high paying jobs, etc.

These and assorted other issues are BOUND to encourage SOME Black women to explore other mating options, including some forms of lesbianism.


PS: Indeed the woman usually “chooses” the man. But what of the women who are seldom ASKED to “choose”?
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jhmo,

Who am I to contradict the proclamations of the CDC?

But I think 'Vette's point is MANY of the people the CDC might have included within their study may have LIED to the CDC because it's more 'reputable' to assert that one acquired HIV via straight sex than via exchanging needles.

But, since you can make similar assertions about almost ANY kind of study, it's probably best that, until STRONG evidence to the contrary is asserted, we go with what you've presented here.

THANKS!
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:26 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I have SEVERAL very CLOSE female friends who (tacitly) live this DL lesbian phenomenon you've recounted.

Of course, you never REALLY know what's within someone's heart/spirit.

But when they were younger, they all lived very STRAIGHT lives. They bragged about future weddings, had (in some cases MANY) boyfriends, they have children, have been engaged, etc.

Now they're living these very clandestine lives, estranged from their families, lying about who/what that 'new' girlfriend REALLY is, etc.

It's really very sad. And my heart goes out to them. :-(


PS: I know it hurts. But cut Kalydosus a lil' slack. Because, honestly, most GUYS would hardly even notice that this is going on.
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM---

I'm sorry, but not even your post does justice to the "reality" that exists out there for millions of black girls who are of a "certain type"----most notably very dark and AFRICAN looking.

It is FAR EASIER in Western societies for women to engage in homosexuality and be "inducted" to ROLE PLAY out of desperation----simply because girls are encouraged to have greater "emotional range"--to cry in public, kiss and hold hands with other girls and to seek HEALING, not from men, but from other females.

Alicia Banks, who is a definite lesbian, often complains of "too many" straight black women messing up the lesbian dating scene by trying to PRETEND they are lesbians---so they can have a romantic life.

Of course, these straight women are "wishy-washy" and difficult to sustain relationships with, because they are not really gay.

There is an EPIDEMIC of it in the BLACK AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

70% of Black Children grow up with no fathers---Black boys in every strata of society where they have a public voice have made it clear that they don't value "black girls" by constantly choosing women who are NOT BLACK and by accepting mainly the "lightest" of the black when they do choose a black girl.

Not only do they choose this way---but in their Music, their Films, their PRINT media (ie. KING) and all other avenues----the BLACK AMERICAN MAN consistently sends a message to young black girls that in order to be beautiful and desirable....they must look "Non-black".

This has been a historical pattern of Black American men---since slavery ended.

It is WELL DOCUMENTED and there are MILLIONS of photographs to prove it---going all the way back.

Which is why the Black Americans are so MIXED---far more than because of White men raping Black women during slavery----the effects of which could have been reversed AFTER slavery ended by Blacks Choosing and mating with Darker Women.

Of course, every literary book POINTS OUT...that blacks chose to marry LIGHTER in the hopes of attaining "good hair" and "white looks"----or "Indian looks". The High Yellow PERSON was made into the ultimate status symbol and put on a pedestal.

Because I am an African woman, my sensitivity to this issue is HEIGHTENED in ways that selfish, evil White Supremacist BLACK MEN are not---they cloak themselves in DENIAL, because they can't face the truth---which is---that they are the exact SATAN they accuse the white man of being.

Kalydosus feels no responsibility towards Black women, but I DO, and no amount of "bullshit" from his mouth is going to stop me from envoking my CURSE against all who embrace forms of racism to kill MY BLACK BABIES---even when those people are fellow black women.

The Black American Man---"Killed his own mother"---because she wasn't white.

That's something that intellectual AFRICAN women are well aware of...and now we must battle the Non-intellectual African woman who is internalizing this same self-hatred via Nigger Media, so that we can fight once again for the liberation and EXISTENCE of BLACK PEOPLES in Africa.









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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 02:21 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting articles.

While I don't "fear" (or dislike) individuals who are homosexual, I don't think their sexual practices are natural--at all.

The man who was on Oprah--what a joke! He stated that being on the DL is about "gratification, not orientation", but in the same breath says that he is "straight." A man can't put his penis in a man's rectum one moment, then a woman's vagina the next, and say he is HETEROsexual. Sorry, it doesn't work like that. He likes intercourse and he likes participating in GAY, sex acts--which makes him BIsexual. This kind of DENIAL and SELFISHNESS is what is contributing to heterosexual women being infected with HIV at such high rates.

About women on the DL--I don't think we can entirely blame men. Reason being, I think women, UNFORTUNATELY, especially in America, have used their liberation to their detriment. While I believe that women should enjoy their sexuality just as much as men, we are seeing the destruction it causes when we give ourselves away too fast and too soon--when we "play" by the rules of men. Basically, women play house nowadays too quickly. We treat men as if they are our husbands when they are NOT, therefore, why should they stick around? Why should they respect us if they have to work for nothing to have all the "benefits" of marriage.... and a mutually beneficial relationship? In general, and from my observations, I feel that women think that they beat men at their own game by being SO free with their sexuality, when in fact, it is beating THEM. Women need to wise up and remember who has "IT"--and not be so willing to give all her goods away for NOTHING. Now, there may be a slight issue with SOME men not wanting women who are "dark", but really, I have seen many beautiful, "dark" women on the arms of FIONE, black men. Yes, it could be because where I live, however, black men still date/marry black women in far greater numbers than they marry non-blacks. I think women, across the board, suffer from giving far too much of themselves away more than they suffer being some unattractive, outcasts that can't "get" a man. *I understand that my pov is limited, but nevertheless, these are just my observations....my opinions....and EVERYONE has one*

"Fear. Hatred. Secrets and lies. That's the sort of climate in which HIV thrives." -CT


I absolutely disagree with this comment. I think that HIV spreads because of the lack of adequate health care. The lack of people, be it heterosexual or homosexual, not WILLING to use condoms when they KNOW better and IV drug use.

Lastly, though this is a side note, I have to say it really bothers me when gays compare their "equality" struggle to that of Black Americans, or any other non-White group that has faced racial injustice, discrimination, and oppression.

This is a culture of self-indulgence and exploitation....what more can we expect?

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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 02:25 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tell us MOONSIGNS.

Exactly what is it that makes homosexual sex "un-natural"?


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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 02:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

You go first. Please.

:-)
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 02:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

My mother's mother is very dark skinned.

My mother's lightskinned.

My father is darkskinned.

My skincolor is in between that of my mother/father's.

My mother has NEVER talked about her father.

I've asked her to tell me SOMETHING about him.

Nothing.

Asked had she ever met him.

Nothing.

Can I see a picture of him?

Nothing...

...except his name.

Honestly, I don't think she's trying to keep anything from me.

I think she just don't know or have much about him.

I've always suspected my mother's father was either WHITE or some very LIGHT Black man.

That he was married.

Or had little interest in my grandmother other than she was for a time a WILLING sex partner.

And I know this is MEAN for me to think.

But I've suspected my grandmother willingly entered into this 'engagement'.

Because she wanted to give birth to someone different from her: A 'pretty', lightskinned, straight-haired child.
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:14 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, MOON...

(1) SEX, just like RACE...is a "social construct".

(2) Humans are a type of animal with a Natural Nature...and a learned Intellectual Nature (the latter making it possible for us to believe in GOD or do mathematics). But still, the Intellectual....does not erase the Instinctual.

I totally agree with the Scientific Theory that ALL HUMANS begin in the womb as "female" and then, by chromonic rupture, evolve into either a MALE or remain a FEMALE.

At birth...all humans, according to science....are "bisexual"

but are then PRESCRIBED the laws of "sexuality" by the society around them, which through MORALS (ie. Religious beliefs, Patriarchal concepts--Madonna Whore Complex--the need for PROGENY to carry on human Narcissim and folkways and mores)...the entire SOCIETY "categorizes" acceptable behavior and

ASSIGNS

the role of "bride" to girls...and "groom" to boys--a social construct---creating a SEXUAL HIERACHY upon which sex can be carried out.

BUT....

All of these "social structures" were necessary in ancient times when human wealth/survival depended upon the birth of CHILDREN. The bigger the family was, the more power they had---in all societies, families with 20 to 30 children (often from a single mother) were the ruling clans.

LATER..."religion" became the force of the planet and from it can social structures forbidding men to sleep with their daughters, cousins to marry and people sleeping with animals....all that had to be put to an end through religion. But it still does not erase the fact that those IMPULSES within humans (to sleep with ANYTHING that attracts it) are NATURAL.

They may not be likeable impulses...but they are NATURAL.

The Bible calls it "LUST".

And all HUMANS are born with it and it is NATURAL.

I myself am conditioned, for a number of Psychological reasons to choose men, love men and obsess over men---which causes me to be "Heterosexual". But I do realize that in a different set of circumstances I could just as easily choose and love other women. In fact---I WANTED TO IN MY 20's, but for aesthetic reasons (my love of men's cocks and their body hair and their masculinity)...I could not find a way to be attracted to women and I DON'T ENJOY having my pussy licked, because of infibulation.

I did find myself lusting after women who were so BUTCH (probably on hormones) that they looked like MEN....but still....they don't have a functioning dick. If they did--I would be married to one.

So, obviously, I don't believe that it's unnatural for two of the same sex to desire and have sex with each other.

I think it's TOTALLY NATURAL.

It's just as natural as Interracial love....something the world hasn't seen the legitimate traces of in a thousand years, now that it's A TOOL of one race's bastardization, but still, Interracial Love is also natural.

In thousands of African and Indian cultures---"GOD" is half woman/half man and is represented by the Eunuch.





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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:18 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Moonsign,

Might you be confusing what is 'normal' with what's being 'natural'?

Because something can occur in NATURE that is atypical from what most frequently occurs.

Perhaps, THAT is what homosexuality is.


I (THINK) I concur with you, though, that the men you describe are enamored with the act of sex itself: male or female is of little regard.

And it's likely not totally "sexual" in nature in that it's a compulsion that is HARDLY amorous/sensual.

Simply: My d#$% is hard. So it's time to f#$%: Man, woman or vegetable.


And I agree with you about many women being duped into believing they can be as lascivious as male.

You can't. You just ain't built for that $#*+.

Yeah. You can 'do it'. But it'll take a toll on you that men seldom experience.

And I guess that's because, physiologically, men and women were 'designed' to do very different things.

Men were basically meant to be the catalyst of life. Thus our incessantly indiscriminant desire to bone and, thus, our utter obsesssion what kind of car we drive.

And women were made to carry, birth and nurse life. Thus your wider pelvis, milk-bearing breasts and ability to believe that crazy@$$ son of yours with a mile-long rap sheet has 'NEVER done anything wrong'.


PS: I concur the average gay man don't know thing-one about being BLACK...unless, of course, he's BLACK.
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Africanqueen
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:19 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola, I agree with you too! There is no way that the bisexual black males would be the ones causing this epidemic among the population. It is up to the adults to become responsible among their children and among their culture. I would agree with you 100% that the hip hop culture is the major problem here. Players eventually end up dying by 40 not because they were gay but because they stack their shit in anything before thinking. The NBA star, Magic Johnson has HIV because of all the many women he slept with. It's comon sense that AIDS is spreaded through sex with many partners and unprotected sex. But I'm not worried about the rich man, Magic. My concern is among us black people working minimum wage jobs, who can't even afford condoms. And well it doesn't help when rappers rise from the hood and make millions rapping about "wait till you see muh ****!" I don't even think I want to know who sings this song, but I'd love it if they took it off the radio dammit! I don't have children, but I have younger siblings I can claim my own and don't want them listenning to this bull. I really thought that rap is just plain comedy and that people would never act on the lyrics, but they actually do. I love the music and everything, but I would never act on some of those lyrics, but I'm actually concern about the children that they would.

I would encourage any black female to get her man tested before sex wether it'd be unprotected or protected. There is nothing I fear more than STDs and the virus HIV/AIDS. I don't care if the man is a virgin, I'd still get them tested. I'm just the type that would choose abstinence over dying from AIDS.

All of this is just a matter of choice and being smart! Bisexual men should become more honest and tell their women what they are gay!

When I left Kenya they were already talking about blood testing before marriage. Most Kenyans are now very aware and teaching about the disease in their schools. 1st graders through 8th graders were already learning about it and getting informed of the deaths and how AIDS is the world's worst nightmare. I would encourage the Africans here to do the same thing, teach kids from kindergarden on about these things!
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, you're probably right.

There are many EXTREMELY dark black women today who will let WHITE MEN and SUPER LIGHT BLACK MEN do any type of sexual arrangement against them----just to be "annointed" by the HIGHEST ONE and also to keep from passing "THE CURSE" on to the progeny.

Our group as a slave/colonial Pogo society creates the Self-hating Black Woman....not the other around.

When a White slave master beats and defiles BLACK WOMEN and tell them that they're "ugly nappy monkeys"----and BLACK MEN are not able to defend them (and even placate the White man by offering agreement)----then the Black Woman has been cursed and denied by her own son, her own children and cannot help but BELIEVE that she is the scarlett letter cursing her children.

SEXISM compounds the problem...in that we are not supposed to "study"/care about the psychological state of females. They are recepticols of blame and abuse or "sexual attention".

But the White Man sets his mother as "QUEEN"----and through her, he rules the world and makes all other men bow at her feet...which only STRENTHENS his rule.

The black man will never be anything...until the black woman is risen out of the cellar.





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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

You think that your being devoutly heterosexual stems at least in part from your desire to be subjugated? And, because of your size and strong-will, few, if ANY, women, can effectively satisfy that masochistic inclination?
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola: "I could not find a way to be attracted to women and I DON'T ENJOY having my pussy licked, because of infibulation."
ABM: Hmmmmmm? Might THAT be another reason why infibulation is performed: It decreases the possibility of lesbian sex?
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you African Queen.

I find it amazing that people buy all this DOWN LOW stuff----as though black men are THAT depraved.

Surely, we have DESPERATE black women climbing into bed with more Bi-sexual Men than they normally would have to.

But the PIMP DADDY BALLERS (age 16 on up), men who REFUSE to get tested and sling dick day and night, are the real culprits.



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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course you're right on BOTH counts, ABM.

Although, Thomas has often pointed out to me that even with my great height and opinionated ideas----he knew just watching me walk down the street that I was a "little lamb pussy".

I can't wait for my VIDEO to run, so that I can get your appraisal of me (and my sexuality) THEN.

I think MEN see me as a "sexual target"---they often look UP at me with amazement, as though I'm a kind of BLOW UP doll.




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Africanqueen
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:35 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Kola, this is Nyibol. I'm the africanqueen incase you didn't know:-) LOL. TTYL.
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 03:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Nyibol. YES, of course I know that's you!!!

And please tell me HOW you guys are able to put Smiley Faces on your posts!

And how does ABM put some of his writing in BOLD?


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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 04:09 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola: "I think MEN see me as a "sexual target"---"
ABM: You think that's something. Wait until you land on the NYC. Almost every manner of male, foreign and domestic, will be looking to plant his flag in yah.

Kola: "...they often look UP at me with amazement, as though I'm a kind of BLOW UP doll."
ABM: Hey! You should contact one of those sextoy makers. 'Cause THAT sounds like a million dollar idea!


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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:09 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I think we differ greatly in our views as to what we regard as instinctual, sexual pleasure. Though I find it instinctual and natural to enjoy sex, I don't find it instinctual and natural to desire the "energy" and physical form of someone who shares the same gender. I don't believe people are born "bisexual". While I view race as a "social construct", I don't view "sex" as a social construct. I think the birth of children, at any point in time, is necessary in order for civilization to continue.

There is both a physical element to this as well as a spiritual element. Physically, a man and a man, and a woman and a woman, will NEVER produce another human being. The very act of sodomy is, plain and simple, not natural. It's perverted, but not natural. It's instinctual to DESIRE....LUST after the feeling of an orgasm, but to desire to be stimulated by the anus of another man, or the image women kissing, is perverted. I will also add that while the sexual acts of gays are unnatural/perverted, I also believe it to be unnatural/perverted for people to practice incest and to sleep with animals. When male and female energies/principles are in balance, they produce healthy families which build healthy communities, that in turn, create a *more* healthy, balanced world. This stuff, to me, is just common sense....untainted logic.

Regarding the spiritual element to all this, I think God is far greater than us, and God's design is for male and female energies to compliment one another--not oppose one another. However, Abm made a good point (paraphrasing) that sometimes in nature something can occur that is atypical. I believe this to a certain extent. However, I do believe, for the most part, that homosexuality is a learned behavior--a perversion and diversion from our (male/female) intended, natural path. Though I am but one person living in such a small part of the world, the homosexuals I have encountered have usually been (sexually) abused and misused their entire life. While I think that is horrible as no one should be abused, I think that also contributes to the sexual confusion they experience.

Gay, sex acts performed by a couple who share the same gender, and the sexual intercourse between a man and a woman who share different races/color, aren't even comparable. Reason being, MAN and WOMAN are divinely designed to procreate--regardless of race/color. Gay sex acts never have, and never will have, that "life force"....that power. The "energy" that is shared during a gay sex act is earthly....it has no spiritual purpose. To me, it is almost hollow....sodden....if that's how I can describe it--and to me, "spirit" is the foundation of everything.

Again, I don't dislike homosexuals, but I don't have to agree with their sexual practices either.
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roXie
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:32 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Something else I think I should point out: why is lesbianism more excepted than male homosexuality?

Even on Tv two women kissing seems to get less controversy than two men doing the same thing. Heck, in sociey in general women, straight or gay, are not as hesitant toward kissing each other than men, respectively.

But it's obvious, straight guys like seeing two women together (usually lipstick lesbians) and that's the only reason it's more accepted. In my personal conclusion, lesbianism is being exploited to satisfy men's sexual fantasies and gay people, especially males, haven't accomplished much as long as certain straight people are controling the images to fit their own perceptions.
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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:37 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

While I agree with you that men are the catalysts of life, I think that is a huge responsiblity--one that many men don't take seriously. I believe that most men think that they can be "lascivious", but they, like women, can't handle it either. Our society is proof of that. When men abuse their role of being natural leaders, we see the destruction that follows. Women are now following suit, and we have even more destruction. However, the one thing that women have going for us is our God-given intuition. I feel strongly that in order for society and our culture to be restored, it is going to take women putting their foot down to the acceptance of the "boys will be boys" theory.
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The reason---ROXIE---is because women are "less valued" than men.

We are considered "expendable"...whereas the male is considered ALL-important and necessary for the LEGITIMACY of the tribe, clan, group, race, whatever.

Men even encourage "homoerotica" between women, because it turns them on to think that we are so hungry for DICK that we turn on each other----waiting and dreaming for it to appear (notice that in their fantasies of two women screwing, the DICK SAVIOR enters the picture and begins satiating the insatiable).

What did you think of Moonsigns last post about homosexuality being PERVERSE? (disregard this question if you've already begun writing on it)


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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Moon, I respect your opinion and I had already written mines in full.

No use in me adding anything further, but I am curious to see what others think.

JUST TO LET YOU KNOW MOON---

most Afrocentrists in the U.S. would agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY with your opinion.

I do not.

But the majority of Afrocentrists would.

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Abm
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 05:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Moonsigns,

I agree with you that there’s a material percentage of people who are living gay lifestyles who are not dyed-n-the-wool homosexuals.

But you do not believe that someone can desire the same sex?

Our amorous feelings we have are largely chemical, biological. So why couldn't a woman's make-up be constructed in a way that elicit desire for another woman?

Homosexuality manifests in nature. You think the 5 - 10% of chimpanzees who exhibit homosexual tendencies "learned" that?

I certainly agree that homosexuality can't be the dominant mode of intimate congress. Otherwise, the species will become extinct.

But maybe there are some positive purposes to homosexuality.

Maybe it’s a form of reproductive regulator that assists in maintaining some ecological balance.


roXie,

Tell the truth: Do you LONG to see two hairy, muscled men tally-whackin'?

Now tell the TRUTH. Hehe!
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:03 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point, ABM

IN REGARD TO....10% of all animal forms are homosexual or bisexual.

Many are even "hermaphrodites"---SNAILS and other animals with BOX SEXES who can impregnate themselves and give birth.

And I wonder how MOON would explain the presence of the Human Hermaphrodite in nature???

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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:06 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dogs, Gorillas and dolphins----have very high rates of "homosexual" behavior when the "female" of their species is NOT PRESENT-----and many of them are Bi-sexual even when she IS present.



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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Roxie and Kola,

You are both on point regarding why gay women are so much more accepted in our society than gay men. *sigh*
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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

No, I do not believe that a person can desire someone of the same gender and have pure intentions. Like I said, it's earthly. Nothing more, nothing less.

And....it's repulsive to see "two hairy, muscle men tally-whackin'"....simply repulsive--just as it would be repulsive to see two women getting muff-muff happy.

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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

Also, I do not believe that are any positive purposes for homosexuality.

About the animals that "show" homosexual tendencies, I don't know what to say except it's not normal. I don't have all the answers or science to back up my opinion, but something in my heart just feels it isn't right. I follow my intution....most of the time....especially when it regards the health and restoration of HUMAN beings and their offspring.



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Moonsigns
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 06:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I respect your opinion as well.

You mention that dogs, dolphins and gorillas show homosexual/bisexual tendencies--and some of these very same animals also eat their own shyt and their own offspring. Therefore, I could never base human behavior on "animal" behavior. While we share the earth with these animals, we live and function in completely different worlds. I consider humans to be more evolved--and we dominate. Period.

If there was ever a human hermaphrodite, then I think discussing such would be more productive. Until then, I think it's pointless. It's not reality.

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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:02 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

NBA star, Magic Johnson has HIV because of all the many women he slept with

ummm...if you say so

LOL
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well that's not fair Yvette.

Why don't you tell us how MAGIC got AIDS since you obviously discount his own account---that women threw themselves at him and he subsequently screwed 20 to 40 women a MONTH over the course of several years.


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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:48 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm gonna shut up, Kola, I promise! I have a pal...who has a pal...who has a pal...And this pal has some (he claims) credible information regarding some high profile ballers and their off-court/field antics... But I'll hush now. You know how these rumors get started! :-)
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:51 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I'll be damned. I just received THIS email from a black woman saying that she lives in Cleveland, Ohio:

and Kola I was glad you brought up that point, because my daughter just turned 39 and she told me on her birthday that she was giving up on looking for a man and that she was being pursued by another woman and that she decided to stop running. My son and I were so shocked. We asked her how can she just turn gay like that, but she start crying and said she didn't feel like she had no other choice. She say she don't want to be alone no more. Her and this woman might adopt children. I tell you it's a mess. I wanted to ask her some other questions but she never have believed she's attractive. Her brother told me that fellas they grew up with used to make fun of her color. She's plum black but I think she a pretty girl, but she claim no men have ever had no interest in her unless it was to use her and disappear. So I know exactly what you was posting about. You keep on hear. You got a whole lot a damn sense these fools don't want to listen because the truth hurts. Black men aint caring about no black woman. Her daddy proof of that, because the day she was born he ask me Why she so dark like that? I looked in his blacker than midnight face and rolled my eyes! He was the real dark one, not me.


_________

Thanks Judy



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Africanqueen
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL, I'm sure if one goes around sleeping with that many people that there would be that higher chance of getting the AIDS... Yes, Magic got AIDS this way too and so is many other people going around fucking everybody. Um, they may not get the AIDS, but all STDs down the line are bitches and knowing that many of us black folks can't afford doctors, we go on passing this on to our unborn children and other folks. An unborn child can get any std the mother and father has too... it's the facts.
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Kola
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Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

YVETTE----

Girl, I WOULD NOT be surprised if Magic Johnson was poking a few Boy-Buns.

That rumor is ALIVE out in Cali, and nowadays, you just never know.....LET'S NOT FORGET...SOME of these "beautiful girls"....are not really girls.

And men turn them right on around and bend them over (CUZZ they "foine") and fuck the living shit out of their booty-holes like it ain't nothing.

And just like they don't consider "ORAL" to be real sex....they don't consider fucking a GIRL-BOY to be sex either.

I've been accused myself of being one (a Girl-Boy)---and COUNTLESS men have told me straight up, "Shit, good as you look--I'll still fuck ya!".

I had a 16 year old Black Boy tell me that I look damned good for a "man"----and do I wanna go in the PUBLIC LIBRARY STALLS and suck his dick???


Girl, CALIFORNIA ain't no damned joke.

STAY AWAY FROM HERE! Protect Yo-self, childe.


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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 01:36 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Moonsigns,

I agree MANY men behave irresponsibly towards their hatchlings. And our society should NOT tolerate that. Because we ALL lose as a result of it.

However, I think women have the advantage of being the natural birther, nurturer of life.

If you carry, birth and nurse a living thing, you're are - all other things being equal - going to have more of an innate respect/regard for it than some one who might have done as little a popped in/out of the joint inside of 5 minutes.

Thus, men, perhaps more then women, have to be trained to care and be more cautious about sex/children.

And I’ll agree you women will probably have to take the lead in this area. Ladies, if you want good, kind men...raise good, kind sons.


I didn't mention nor do I don't know what you mean by what's "pure" with respect to homosexuality. And while I respect your 'beliefs" about homosexuality; natural science, and human history and culture suggest otherwise.

And regarding “human evolution”:
Are we not the very SAME species of animal who’ve enslaved, trampled, raped and murdered countless millions of our OWN KIND?

Are we not the same foks who just 60 years ago tried to exterminate an ENTIRE race of our own fellow human beings?

“Evolved” from animals? Honey, you could learn A LOT from the dolphins.


PS: For the sake of political correctness, I’ll abstain from relaying MY view of the relative virtues of "muff muffy happy". HAHAHA!


'Vette,

Don't you dare infer THAT about Magic. Don't you DARE.

Seriously. I think it’s ENTIRELY possible (probable?) what you infer is true. ‘Cause, come on: We know SOME of those hoopsters are double-ballin’. Hehe!


Kola,

HAHA!

Whenever you talk about California, I think of that GREAT Guns N’ Roses song “Welcome To the Jungle”.

Earthworms are hermaphroditic too. They essentially double-mate whereby Worm #1's female genitalia connect to that of Worm #2 male gen' SIMULTANEOUSLY as Worm #1 male gen' connects to that of Worm's #2 female gen’.



The $#*+'s actually pretty cool! Disgusting...but cool!
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Kola
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 01:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Eeewwwwww

leave it to a boy to bring me worms fucking.


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Anunaki3600
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 04:32 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My 2 cents in regards to this discussion. Among the chimpanzees, its only the Alpha male who gets all the booty, so all the other males, some being weak or young have no access to females. Some older males may leave the troop to start their own to access females. It's only the young males who immitate the act with other young male, rather than having a full penetrating intercourse. I used to have a male rabbit who lived with lots of chicken. It used to jump on chicken and act like it was humping the chicken. The main point is that this is all learnt behaviour. Changing the subject, recently in the news, researchers on stem cells have discovered that they can extract sperm and ova from these cells. They say that this will help infertile couples who want children but lack donor. I guess in the near future, we wil not need the two sexes to reproduce but will need stem cells to extract all we need for fertilization. My two cents folks.
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 11:26 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anunaki,

Why would a Chimp ‘learn’ to do something it otherwise wouldn’t and shouldn’t do? Don’t they, absent any unnatural influence, pretty much do what they’re innately inspired to do?

I wonder if some of us are supplanting description with prescription.

I’ve read many references that suggest that homosexuality is more prominent amongst chimpanzees and other animals than you would appear to infer.

Recently, I read and posted here (somewhere?) references to an article that assert there’s a relatively high incidence of lesbianism amongst cows.

Now I agree that for any species to endure/prosper, homosexuality can NEVER be a dominant part of any social order (that, I suspect, is in part why certain religions have to some degree prohibited it). And it’s probably for THAT reason I’ll think triple-overtime before I sanction any laws/regulations that would effect some wholesale normalization/acceptance of same-sex couplings.

But I don’t think it does us any good to allow bias to confuse and obfuscate the fact that homosexuality is a real, naturally occurring phenomenon within the earth’s Animal Kingdom.


I agree with you that someone will (if they have not already done so), cross-fertilize a pair of sperm and/or egg. Moreover, I think we will pretty soon have an artificial incubation system that allows the results of such pairings to develop and then be born sans a female host.
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Moonsigns
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 05:36 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

Just as women have an innate respect for the child(ren) they birth, nurse and tend to, men have an innate respect to provide and protect for their spouse and offspring. When men are fed, sexed and cared for with no responsibility required of them, society tends to crumble--and it's doing so all around us. Yes, women MUST raise kind, gentle, and loving sons....but ONLY when they are READY for that responsiblity. Yes, men MUST raise kind, gentle and loving daughters....but ONLY when they are READY for that responsiblity. All this playing "house" shyt is good for nothing. Women need to make men earn the right to have benefits, and vice versa!!!!!!!

About the homosexuality thing....
Very simple. Either sex is pure, as divinely intended, or it's perverted. Just because things happen within nature does not mean they are examples of what is TRULY natural. If a person sexually abuses a child it is considered perverted, not natural--not pure. If a woman or man sleeps with a cousin or some other family member, it is considered perverted, not natural--not pure. Just because some animals display homosexual tendencies does not mean it's "natural", it's just perversion from their true, intended nature. On the merit of physical form alone, common sense dictates what is true and pure in the most simple form. A penis is not made for an a$$, as a women with a strap-on penis looks ridiculously bizarre.

The unfortunate thing about "natural science, human history and culture" is that science is limited--usually to people who believe that there is nothing greater outside themselves and their human, scientific studies. Most scientists I've had the priviledge of meeting, and (book) smart people at that, are atheists--and that is disturbing to me. Human history and culture are closely intertwined. Men have ruled the world since the beginning. Men like sex. Men will say just about any sexual practice is "natural" as long as they are gratified. They condone anything that suits their sexual fancy, and usually at the expense of women and children suffering. So, to me, "natural science, human history and culture" do not influence my decision on what I feel is intuitively impure. It's natural to desire sex, but impure to abuse oneself and others for a mere orgasm.

About the human evolution thing....
Plain and simple, we have dominion over the animal kingdom. Again, this is something that is common sense. While we can learn fascinating things from animals, we eat them, they don't eat us. I don't condone the evil behavior of some humans, but bottom line is, humans rule. I didn't make it that way, that's just the way it's always been. You'll have to talk to GOD about that.

I appreciate you being PC about the muff eaters. I'm sure your comment would've made my stomach ache.

Nevetheless, this has been a good exchange. :-)



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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 09:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Moonsigns,

I concur there are TOO many men who are undeservedly receiving the blessings of women. But you know only you women can fix THAT one.

Assuming you want to.

I think there's more than a reasonable percentage of women who've been bred to get worked over by men and can hardly stand to be treated differently by us.

Tell me: How do you fix THAT?

You are using scripture to support your view of homosexuality. I appreciate and respect that.

But what happens when others have different spiritual beliefs.

Tell me: How do you fix THAT?

And are you suggesting that only MEN (males) are purveyors of homosexuality? If so, I think you should check out a couple episodes of Showtime's The L-Word.

Though you might wince when they get to the obligatory "muff muff party" scenes.
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Moonsigns
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Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 05:25 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

I agree with you that there are many women 'who've been bred to get worked over by men'. I can only give you my opinion as to what I think would help to change situations like this. I, by all means, do not think I have THE answers. There are many dynamics involved, though there are a few "basics" that I feel would indeed provide a solid foundation for women to "build" upon. Quality health care and education are two major "basics". If ALL women had quality health care, they would have the ability to CHOOSE to procreate or not, as well as a better chance of protecting themselves from contracting STD's. Quality health care (alone) would reduce many of our social ills/challenges. When a woman doesn't have unwanted pregnancies, she is free from stress associated with childrearing, thus, she can work on her education and career--building a solid, financial foundation for herself. It prepares her for the future....and is the best life insurance possible. Many women are trapped in abusive relationships because, for various reasons, they are financially dependent on a man (or men).

I did not make any scriptural references in my post to you regarding homosexuality--meaning, I did not use direct scripture from any "religious" organization/doctrine.

Sure, my beliefs are spiritually inspired, but again, I made no specific reference as to just what it is I believe in (though I definitely BELIEVE). In regards to others who differ in their spiritual beliefs, that is their business. I live and let live. Though I have incredibly strong convictions regarding many things, I don't hold anyone else to my standard and judge them (dislike them) because they think differently. Every human is FREE to believe as they desire. We are born alone and we die alone. I'm not GOD and NO ONE will stand before me to be judged. For this reason, I'm free to believe as I choose, but also repsect my fellow mankind/womankind. I, as everyone else, must be accountable for my beliefs and to what degree I live out the convictions of my heart. As far as sharing what I believe to be truth, my only true obligation is to pass on my faith/beliefs to my children. I believe how we, as individuals, live everyday life is the best testament to others as to what is really in our hearts. Homosexuality has been here since the beginning of time, and though I don't believe it's "natural", it does not mean anything I believe will "fix" it.

Abm, I don't have Showtime....never have had it and never will. Don't have HBO either....and never will. The show sounds sketchy--proably something I wouldn't want to watch. Months ago, we already discussed t.v. and how trashy I think it is. You'd definitely get bored with my "lineup"--HGTV, Food Network, Discovery, BBC, public tv, Animal Planet (for the kids) and on occassion, 60 Minutes and Primetime.

Reality is far better than fantasy....at least for some of us.





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Abm
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Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 09:34 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Moonsigns,

I see some merits to what you say.

Certainly good health/education are VITAL.

I hope, though, your health programs include mental/emotional counseling.

Because one can start out physically healthy as a horse. But if their mind's a wreck, the rest of them is sure to follow.

I'd add ecomonic power to your bag of tricks. Women must garner more control over the economies if they're ever to effect preferable political, social and cultural phenomena.

Perhaps I mispoke in reference to "scripture". However, we are talking about one's beliefs here. And those are often empirically unprovable.

So you can call it "scripture", "spirituality", Buddism, Tarot Card reading, etc. And differences amongst such, in a secular society, can be troublesome when citizens who are SUPPOSE to have equal rights/privleges BELIEVE differently.

Thus, within this discussion about homosexuality, I refer to natural science, human history/culture, etc. to at least effect a bridge to which rational, mutually respectful and acceptable discourse can ensue.

Otherwise, all that's left is arguing, damning, estrangement and then WORSE.

I'm sure you respect others beliefs. Let's us hope that manifests in your political choices. Because if it doesn't, then you effectively enable a system that may eventually intrude upon you.

We actually are HUGE fans of the HGTV, Home and Food Network channels. We have TiVo Season Passes to several programs on those networks. And I catch 60 Minutes occassionally though I'm not much of a fan of Primetime (too sensationalistic for me).

However, my ALLTIME favorite viewing is CSPAN I and II. To me, those 2 channels are the Saving Grace of ALL TV/Cable.
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Moonsigns
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Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 12:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

You've made an excellent, valid point about mental/emotional health care being included. It's one that I think is needed, but one I wasn't thinking of before you mentioned it. Thanks for bringing it to my attention!

I think that economic power is also required, but I think that we wouldn't see such huge "gaps" once women are educated personally and professionally. However, there is an element of both racial and gender discrimination/prejudice that would definitely have to be addressed in order for ALL women to become as successful as they deserve to be.

Respecting others beliefs does not mean that I deny myself my rights, especially politically. My vote is my voice, just as it is yours. It's a give and take--and always will be. The political choices I make are steered by the convictions of my heart. Surely, anyone of us could 'enable a system that may eventually intrude upon us' based upon our political decisions. I guess that is the risk everyone takes....scary or not. I just hope for the best as I'm sure you do, too.

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Jackie
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Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 06:26 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola, why does Moonsigns opinion matter here. I think you were soliciting blacks opinion on the subject matter anyway. Homophobia within the black oommunity and among blacks.
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Jackie
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Username: Jackie

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2005

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Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 06:27 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

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Kola
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Username: Kola

Post Number: 1757
Registered: 02-2005

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Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 07:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Jackie.

You're right, the article does have to do with our own people's rejection/treatment of gays--but I didn't want to be rude and mean by excluding anyone's opinion. It's a public board.

And how ironic that the person who most REJECTED "gays" on this thread is the lone white lady married to a black man in our hood.

I think it's pretty clear that I personally don't agree with Moon about gays and homosexuality. I think it's a normal, natural occurence in nature and if one of my sons should turn out to be gay, I would not have any problem with it---as long as he dates black boys. LMAO!!!! :-) JUST KIDDING.







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Abm
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Username: Abm

Post Number: 3665
Registered: 04-2004

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Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 07:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

That "And how ironic that the person who most REJECTED "gays" on this thread is the lone white lady married to a black man in our hood." is interestingly ironic indeed.

Some of finest, dearest people I know are gay/lesbian. And although I might have concerns about whether they'd bless me with grandchildren and experience discrimination, I couldn't love my daughters any more straight than I could lesbian.

But the way these girls mack on guys, I suspect THAT will NOT be much of an issue at all.

:-)
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns

Post Number: 552
Registered: 07-2004

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Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 04:27 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

Serious question.

It is my impression that from what you share here, you feel that the future of male/female relationships--long term, healthy and successful relationships--between black men and women are threatened. Obvioulsy, acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle is growing, and will only continue to do so. What effect do you think homosexual, Black couplings will have on the ability for healthy, heterosexual, Black couplings to thrive?





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Kola
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Username: Kola

Post Number: 1779
Registered: 02-2005

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Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 04:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

NONE, Moon.

10% of all groups, historically, have been GAY----just as in the animal world.

And historically---3% of all groups/tribes worldwide have married interracially or inter-tribally or inter-faithwise.....which is normal.

What is NOT NORMAL is the edict of White Supremacy that causes an EPIDEMIC among colored peoples (black, latin,Asian) who are trying to aquire "whiteness" through marriage/dating/mating by Color Status. That is a reality in the U.S. Even amongst ALL blacks---the racism of "tradition" drives them to seek out the LIGHTEST of their group for serious involvement, or to pick the lightest to send to college or to be the leader, etc. That is far different from 10% of the population being born gay.



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Moonsigns
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Username: Moonsigns

Post Number: 553
Registered: 07-2004

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Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 07:24 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

Thanks for answering my question.
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West_africa
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Username: West_africa

Post Number: 52
Registered: 08-2005

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Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:32 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Eighty to ninety percent of all homosexual behavior in the United States is the direct result of covert behavior modification programs run by and coordinated by the military.

No less than sixty percent of all deviant, abberant, and sociopathological behavior (again, within the U.S.) is tangentally or directly the result of similar programs."



(Taken from a citation posted on a prominent African-American website in early 2005.)
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West_africa
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Username: West_africa

Post Number: 53
Registered: 08-2005

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Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:35 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Angela Davis is a decent person.

Angela Davis was a member of the Black Panthers.

Angela Davis is "married" to who?
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Anonymous
 

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Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 04:18 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

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