| Author | Message | ||
     Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 672 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29933480/ Analyze away, Dr. Perry. ;-) | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1808 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello Kitty If anybody would have put this up besides you ...well, not anybody ...if a certain somebody's would have put this up besides you, I would have questioned their motive but since I have an opinion about everythang ...wait, all the naysayers can sit down now, you got your "amen" in. Like I was saying, I thought I'd jump in here before Ms. Ivy comes in. The first thing I noticed was the percentage was only %4 lower than the national average. If I am to believe that some of the UBCU still lag behind in funding and donations I would say that these figures are not surprising. Then I noticed the schools that were leading the way (good numbers). They are institutions that most Americans are familiar with. What does that tell you? I say birds of a feather stick together. Certain environments are more condusive to learning and has little to do with the color of the individual or the colors on the walls. I bet most can't name the cities these institutions are in. I wonder what the pay scale is at these Universities ...so many questions. | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 674 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Carey... Yeah, my only "motive" in posting things here is to spark discussion (which, depending on the discussion, I may or may not participate in, lol). With this article in particular, I'm especially interested in Yvette's thoughts. I thought the article did a decent job of presenting a variety of stats (like the 4% you pointed out), and not just a flat-out indictment of black men or of HBCUs--though, I'm sure it still may read that way to some. One section that I really found striking was this one: It sounds like easy living for men at HBCUs, and some joke about the advantages. "You have so many beautiful women around you (that) you get to see and so many to pick from. The net is real wide," laughed Eric Jefferson, a senior at North Carolina Central University in Durham, which is two-thirds women. But while HBCU women are doing relatively well, many note the lack of gender diversity in their classes. The gender gap also weighs heavily on social life. For many HBCU women, said Monet Phillips, an N.C. Central senior, the feeling is: "Even though that I'm the Monday woman, I'm going to be the best Monday woman so that when he's with the Tuesday woman or the Wednesday woman then he'll be thinking of me." *cringe* | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1809 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Okay Kitty Btw, I used your screen name in one of my blogs. In fact it was the last one I wrote. Cynique's name is in there too. Don't worry ...it was a good thang. http://careycarey-carrymehome.blogspot.com/ Also, your last paragraph is just the thang we've been talking about **cringe** "They call it stumblin' Monday ...Tuesdays just as bad" ...cringe! | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1714 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
The nature of Ms. Phillips’ quote (of NC Central) pretty much sums up the problem... The graduation rate problem, or more accurately catastrophe is reflective of the much larger problem of dysfunction in many of our communities and families. This problem has been looming large for some time now. The consequences are becoming plainly obvious to anyone conscious or caring enough to observe. You all better start praying. It is probably a great triumph that an Edwards Waters College can graduate 9% of it students after 6 years; given the quality of students they have to work with (All due respect to past, present and future Edwards Waters College students). This is in stark contrast with Spelman College who is graduating an astounding 81% of their students. Spelman is starting out with a much better crop of students, many of whom come from upper middle class families with a legacy of college education going back generations. Plus they don’t have to deal with the boys – that alone is probably worth an 20% boost in their graduation rates. It is interesting that the United Negro College Fund removed the following quote from their website: Perhaps it was true when the statement was posted. In this case, the UNCF could have simply attributed the comment to the period when it was true. Makes you wonder if the the UNCF ever took the measurements to back the statement… But I'm sure that was the intent of AP article. As an aside: I noticed a lot of site are breaking up articles across multiple pages. I image this is done to display more advertising, but I find it irritating to have to page through multiple pages for a relatively short article. I usually read the printer friendly version, but this version usually leaves out the photos and graphics... | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 675 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Troy, As a native of Jacksonville, I'm familiar with EWC moreso than any other HBCU. I participated in INROADS-Jacksonville during college, and I remember students being surprised that one of the top INROADERs one particular year was an EWC graduate. The school's rep was terrible, but I remember this young woman as very poised and bright and someone we younger students admired. About breaking up articles...yeah, that annoys me too. I found an article last night that I wanted to use in a class that I'm hoping to teach, and it was so badly "broken up" and the ads were so huge within the text, I just said "forget it." I suffered through the article because it was an interesting read, but I didn't want to subject anyone else to that. | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 676 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Troy, to clarify, I wasn't disagreeing with your sentiments. Not at all. What you said just triggered my memory of this particular young woman. Of course if I could remember her name I would Google-stalk her... ;-) Carey, you can use my name any time...just don't take it in vain...HA! | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1718 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ferociouskitty I understood. In every school, and environment for that matter, you will find exceptional people; so that student you mentioned does not surprise me. About the articles, most site are nice enough to provide a printer friendly version of a web page which is how I read most articles. When a printer friendly version is not available; I copy the article then paste it into notepad which gets rid of everything but the raw text. I then print out that version. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 7858 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: |
The graduation rate problem, or more accurately catastrophe is reflective of the much larger problem of dysfunction in many of our communities and families (This is a WEB Dubois, talented tenth, high siddidy Negro analysis of the situation. "The white people will not respect us unless all of us are Rhodes Scholars," it sniffs. "And any Black man who is not #1 in his class academically should just crawl in a hole and die." Them papers ain't fit to wipe your ass with unless you got some MONEY! What kind of degree Bill Gates got? Ain't he a drop out? George W. BUsh got degrees out is wazzoo. Is there anybody here who thinks he would have been anything if not for his FAMILY? We must turn away from seeking seals of approval--which degrees are--and to developing and encouraging skills that will enable us to live long and prosper. There have been people who have become major CEOs without being able to read. Since y'all don't wanna fight the power, you got to learn business. Start businesses. Then you can handle the degreed folk. Troy is still living in the 20th Century. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1719 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Chrishayden, you are confusing a whole lot of nonsense and obscuring one simple fact: We, Black men in particular, are not being educated as well as we need to be to be successful in the 21st century. This trend is worsening. This has nothing to do with Dubois’ talented 10th or seeking “The Man’s” approval. This is about acquiring the basic skills to live a life above a subsistence level. Dude it is very hard to start and sustain a profitable business. Do you think a lack of education or vocational training makes this easier? This is not the college’s fault. They are simply reflecting a catastrophe in the making. In reality, it is not the school’s fault at any level. Despite the inefficiencies in the public school system the blame rests with the families and communities that are feeding the schools. Some communities are experimenting with paying families, to provide an incentive, do some very basic things like taking their children to the doctor and library. Some schools are even paying students to show up on time, behave in class and get good grades. Again, this is reflective of the criticality of the problem and the desperation in our communities. Man the way things are headed, you may wish you were living in the 20th century. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 7861 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: |
Troy you have imbibed the white man's foolishness to the gills. They told you you better than all them other darkies cuz you got your papers. They had me snowed with that s*** for a while, too. Well, let me tell you. When the time comes you get lowered into that muddy six foot ditch in the ground just like a functional illiterate. They don't need to know books. They need to know how to make money. I had my eye on you since you posted that you were in Harlem, buying French Bread. WORLD! I ask you...what kind of Negro would be in the middle of Harlem, buying French bread? I got my eye on you, Troy! | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 7862 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: |
I'd give one A. G. Gaston for a million fancy pants Negroes! | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1721 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
LOL. You need help Chrishayden! Attacking me does nothing to bolster your argument and further muddies the issue. If your eye is really on me you’d know I have several degrees, and have started several business. As such a person, I’m probably in a better position that most to assess the requirements for obtaining a degree and pursuing entrepreneurship. However for your benefit Chris I’ll state what is obvious to any reasonable adult: A decent education is key. The problem is that we are not getting this education and it is not the fault of the schools. All that noise about Siddity Blacks, Talented 10th, and French bread buying Negros is bullshit is just that; bullshit. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1813 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
*lol* @ Chris ...that ni**a is crazy ...like Richard Pryor crazy. He makes me laugh! See, I don't necessarily agree with what he's saying but he's making me laugh and thats a good thang. Some of that mess he says is funny. Now I am sure some do not appreciate his attacks of Troy but I sort of think Troy isn't going to lose any sleep over his comments. That french bread in Harlem spill was ...ahh. funny to me. But see, I can laugh at that because I've been to Harlem and I know there are all kinds of folks in Harlem and the joke was so stupid it made me laugh. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1725 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey, agreed about Chris. He had me laughing too. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10273 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, I think I agree with everything you've posted here EXCEPT "...it is not the school’s fault at any level." I believe American schools are OFTEN especially and uniquely hostile towards African American males. And I think that is in no small part the result of them largely being managed and administered in ways that are more conducive towards the strenght and inclinations of females than they are male. But this phenomenom is NOT unique to Blacks. All over the country, females are outstripping males in schools. Most American honors and AP high school courses are dominated by females. Most of today's high school valedictory speeches are given by females. And about 58% of ALL current college students are female. Even White foks are starting to get alarmed by this. I recently read an article that referred to YOUR nape-of-the-neck that featured the lamentations of NYC females - White, Black and other - not being able to find men of their equivalent educational and economic prowess. As is often the case with problems in America, when you see the travails of Black foks, you're often just seeing the canary fly out from the mine shaft... | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1817 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
"As is often the case with problems in America, when you see the travails of Black foks, you're often just seeing the canary fly out from the mine shaft..." I am going to steal that one! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10275 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey, That is one of my better ones. Ain't it? *poppingcollar* | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1818 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM, I ain't the one to be throwin' out ribbons to any ol'wordsmith but you get triple mega stars for that one. I told you I done stole it. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1726 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM, the schools are by no means perfect. If you would have spoken to me years ago I would have placed more on the blame on the schools as well. Consider Edwards Waters College; Black professors instructing Black students in an environment that purportedly nurtures, understands and supports Black students. However less than 10% of the Black males (I can assume) graduate and 6 years!?! Now, do you honestly believe the blame rests with Edwards Waters College for such a dismal graduation rate; that Edwards is failing to instruct students adequately enough to pass Edwards’ own requirements for graduation? What incentive does Edwards have not to graduate students? Perhaps the problem was with the high schools the students attended before Edwards? Or maybe the middle school the feed the high schools or elementary school that feed the middle schools? Try the families that feed students into the elementary schools. I’ve spoken to too many teachers that describe so much dysfunction in families that it is pathetic. At the end of the day, you must agree, that the ultimate responsibility for educating a child rests with the parents. This should be obvious. How do caring parents not provide enough support for their children to ensure they get a proper education? How does a college student so frequently lose the incentive and drive to graduate. We are looking at a problem whose root cause stems from the family. Many schools have taken on the responsibility of feeding kids up to 3 meals a day, providing day care for pregnant teens, pre-school programs, after school programs, even paying students just to attend school. The schools are asked to practically raise the kids today and are lambasted when they fail at something they can’t possibly achieve. I went to a specialized high school. When I attended it had been an all boys school a few years earlier. The school was about 1/3 black. Of those Black students the majority were boys. Today the school is about 14% black and the majority of those are girls. I asked one of the teachers (a brother) what the hell happened to the boys. He told me they are not even taking the test to get into the school. When I was a graduating engineering student, most of us complained that white companies would not give us a chance. Today white companies are bending over backwards to find Black engineering graduates… Today the count Africans, Asian Indians in their “diversity numbers”. Black American males are MIA. This was the case before the latest economic crisis. Do you think it will be better or worse afterwards? Also, I’m tired of reading about all these women who have trouble finding good men. This is also reflective of the same problem illustrated by Edwards graduation rates. Pray y’all. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3483 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I believe American schools are OFTEN especially and uniquely hostile towards African American males. And I think that is in no small part the result of them largely being managed and administered in ways that are more conducive towards the strenght and inclinations of females than they are male. Agree. And this starts alarmingly early--I saw it even as I taught at the preschool level. I think I would amend what you said, though. SOme classroom environments are openly hostile. Others are just indifferent. And others do not see that Black males thrive past what might be expected of them. The last one is just as damaging as the other two. Many a Black boy is passed along and given good grades for behaving well--never mind that they have not mastered much. The expectations are low, so they are not pushed beyond these limits. Yet it is virtually impossible for colleges to play catch-up. When you have students coming in who, for all intents and purposes, are functionally illiterate--how are they ever going to be able to function at a (true) college level? For many students. it is as if they are spending $$ for 4-6 years of school for basically a 2-year associates degree. And of course that often means they have student loan debt for that many years. Further, they are responsible for the debt no matter if they finish or not--yet not finishing severely limits their ability to work in a job that would make repayment possible. For many of these students, the wiser choice would be to attend an actual community college, then transfer to a 4-year college (HBI or otherwise) if they are able to manage and get caught up on what they should have learned in high school and earlier. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1728 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I do not buy the idea that American schools are OFTEN especially and uniquely hostile towards African American males. OK, let’s say the environments are indeed openly hostile. What is the excuse of the parent for tolerating these conditions? I know a parent who would looked at their step child’s school work and thought it was too easy. She marched to the school and demanded an explanation. The boy had been put in a class for “slow students”. The boy was too young to know any better – happy even he was not being challenged. However the step parent corrected the situation. I gather you do not think the hostility is at the college level. However some would disagree given the rampant and overt racism I'm constantly hearing about at Harvard. It is easy to level the complaint against the school when the real and ultimate responsibility rests with the student, the family, our community. I attended enough schools to know there are professors who are shitty teachers, there are professors who don’t give a crap, there are professors that you will struggle to get a decent grade from and there are those you will be an easy A. Schools can be hard -- even the best schools are imperfect. However, this was never an excuse not to graduate. That was never an excuse not to show up. This was never an excuse not to get that paper and get out. Today we hang our heads, whine like little punks and say the teachers don’t care about us – and we think that is an excuse to leave. Weak. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13600 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
A degree is not always a testament to great expertise. It is a pass port. It gets you into an environment where you can advance yourself by absorbing and observing the culture of a corporation. The day of the rugged individual becoming a millionaire entrepreneur through his savvy and the sweat of his brow are just about over. Most small businesses fail. Drug dealing and computer ventures remain the exception to this rule. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13601 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
As is often the case with problems in America, when you see the travails of Black foks, you're often just seeing the canary fly out from the mine shaft..." Somebody please explain this to me. I don't get it. When a canary flies out of the mine shaft, it has proven that there's no poisonous gas therein, thus making it safe for the miners to enter. Black folks are more like crows who perch on top of fences and cackle at the travails represented by scarecrows... Hi, ABM. Stay awhile.  | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1821 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
represented by scarecrows...? Let me see if I have this right  . | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10276 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, I, frankly, had never even HEARD of the Edwards Walters College (EWC) prior to reading of it within this thread. And I’ll accept whatever shame I should bear for that. So, since I am not at all familiar with the school, I cannot at all make ANY credible assessment of the quality of it pedagogical and scholastic endeavors, especially with respect to it BM students. But I suspect you are correct that EWC is, alas, being made the launder the socio-economic messes made by others, including, of course, parents, primary and secondary schooling systems, inequities in local school funding and support, etc. But NONE of us are above scrutiny or blame. And just as I might applaud the overwrought EWC managing to graduate even nine percent of its BM students, it seems only fair scrutinize what happened to the other 91%. I don’t require perfection of ANY school, at ANY level. But like with any other widespread socio-economic problem, we ALL at some point and to some degree either become a part of the problem or a part of the solution. And, alas, I fear in many instances the schools are – especially because of how they’re arranged and administered - at least as much the former as they are the latter. Now, I will certainly in most cases blame parents more than I do schools. Because, ultimately, parents are MOST responsible for the success and failures of their children. However, I will blame school systems for continuing to stubbornly apply old solutions to new problems, which I think a fair assessment of what is going on will very OFTEN conclude. For instance, I believe the current pathologies BM are being confronted by PLEAD that we adopt a lot MORE single-sex schooling. Every meaningful study of improving schools declares boys (and girls) do better in single-sex schools. And when you add to the mix Black male often having no fathers and very few strong, clear yet comforting POSITIVE male role models, compelling the majority of Black males to abide the current coed schooling paradigm - one that is becoming ever more FEMALE oriented, taught and administered - appear almost CRIMINAL. And this single-sex school must occur very EARLY in the lives of Black males, when it is easier to steer them into the direction of more positive pursuits sans the possibility of somehow offending or infringing upon the goodwill of Black females. Where, perhaps, you and I fundamentally differ is And I do NOT view the issue to be of an either-or variety where its either or even mostly just the parents fault or the schools fault. I belive its BOTH those, and it the fault of extended kin, government, business, churches. Bruh. When you’ve got MILLIONS of 16 year old Treyshons who can’t even read a frickin' newspaper it is EVERYBODY'S dayam fault. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13602 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
No, Carey, you don't have it right. As usual. "Scare crows" are the forces who cause the travails of "crows". Crows sittin on a fences are elusive, wily birds who manage to survive - unlike fragile little canaries who are at the mercy of their masters. The symbolism obviously escaped you. Sheeze. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3484 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: |
Today we hang our heads, whine like little punks and say the teachers don’t care about us – and we think that is an excuse to leave. Weak. Troy, I am not sure where you are getting the idea that this is what is happening--or maybe you are just saying this for effect. What I think is happening in some (many?) cases is that there is not enough personal, first-hand contact between a student and some adult in charge such that potential problems can be identified and solutions found before they become problems. Back before a lot of this affirmative action backlash there were minority-only programs where POC got together regularly, faculty and other staff knew the young men and women personally, and even higher level administrators made contact regularly with students through talks and symposia and whatnot. If a student got a C on a test there was someone on the phone demanding to know what was up, what was wrong. There was a sense of community where students were invested in each others' success. Now, some may say that this kind of hand-holding should not be necessary, that Black students should want and strive to succeed without it. But the fact is, many do not, and a lot of these programs work where other solutions do not. Key to the success in a college environment is understanding the culture of higher education. Black students are often shocked to find that--although they were among the smartest in their high schools--there are White students (and Middle class kids of color) who have had educational experiences far beyond what they can even imagine. They need to learn that they need to work in study groups, even arranging them on their own. This is in contrast to the idea that to be successful in school you need to work independently. They need to know that they should attend office hours with profs and TAs--often and EARLY. This is in contrast to a mind-set where seeking help is seen as a sign of failure and something to be avoided. Of course parents are at fault. So are churches and students themselves and taxpayers who don't want more $ to go to school funding and politicians who play politics with kids' educations, and teachers' unions for making it damn near impossible to get rid of poor teachers and give excellent teachers the merit pay that will keep them in their jobs, and schools of education/teacher training that pump out too many administrators and too few high quality teachers, and community members who won't volunteer in the schools... And on and on. We need to attack the problem on all fronts. Meanwhile the numbers are very, very scary and will only get more scary without intervention. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3486 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
And LOL--FK I see you invoked my name at the top of the thread. My ears musta been burning! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10279 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, Not to quibble. But I believe if you are indifferent to and/or ignore the unique and special problems confronting young Black male students then you are for all practical purposes being very "hostile" towards them. Because you are, in effect, saying to child stuck in an ocean of water who can’t swim I don’t give fluck if you drown. I believe Black boys of today often enter schools with problems unique and specific to THEM. And schools that do NOT attempt to address THEIR particular issues are pretty much waisting everyone’s time. I mean, what good does it do to stubbornly assert a teaching criteria that clearly is NOT working for HALF your students? And I agree the social promotion you describe is problematic. But the even BIGGER problem is WTF can you logistically DO with +75% Black boys who after an entire year of schooling STILL cannot achieve reading and mathematical proficiency? Hold him back in the SAME class along with their older BROTHERS who STILL themselves can’t conjugated verbs and divide fractions? Yes, MANY brothas matriculate into colleges wholly UNPREPARED to graduate. But, perhaps, we are doing EWC (and similarly performing HBCUs) a huge disservice just by citing its lowly graduation stats of BM. Perhaps a fairer and more accurate analysis of EWC would include the rates by which former BM students transfer to and graduate from OTHER colleges. Perhaps such a study should be expanded to, say, a 10 year period, versus 6 years. And, perhaps, the analysis should also include the rate and quality of employment of former non-graduating BM students. Because, for example, if it can be reasonably deduced that spending 2 years at EWC better prepared a brotha to develop sufficient reading and writing skills to become, say, a licensed carpenter or plumber, or a police officer or fireman, then, even though this would not manifest as success via the school’s graduation rates, the school did some good for the brotha. So maybe rather than just condemning the EWC and similar schools for graduating few BM, perhaps a SOLUTION to the problem includes our more broadly considering the overall successes of their former BM students and, perhaps, our encouraging and assisting EWC to adjust to its mission and objectives to even better do what it already does very well for BM. And I agree many of us and, frankly, not just those of use who lack sufficient academic preparation, would greatly benefit from starting our collegiate education at a small, comfortable and inexpensive community college that would allow us to more gradually and effectively transition into the rigors and demands of the university. Some of the community colleges in my area allow an especially motivated teenager to forego the remainder of his-her high schooling and instead earn a GED while CONCURRENTLY earning college credits. A 16 year old can use these program to earn a bachelors’ degree by age 20. Much like public libraries, community colleges are amongst society's great under-utiilized and underated resources. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3487 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Much like public libraries, community colleges are amongst society's great under-utilized and underrated resources. Agree 100%. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1822 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Shezze, Cynique ....that's why I asked the question ...I couldn't have had it wrong because I didn't have an understanding. Some people just sit back and cackle. They sit back and cackle because they think it is about them. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13603 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
In my "brave new world" vision, class rooms and teachers would become obsolete. These sources, are, and have been failing for years, and show no signs of improving the dismal state of public education. The user-friendly relationsip young minds have with computers should be maximized as means of educating. Yes, let there be extra-curriculum activites and sports to help kids develop their social skills and physical athleticism, but by taking advantage of the affinity between young minds and computerized tools, children can, in effect, teach themselves by being paired up with hand-held devices programmed to make learning about a subject a game where correctness makes you a winner. Instead of an open class room, each child would be confined to his own little pod where he/she would would be in control, free to learn at his own pace by the trial and error method, away from the distractions of a classroom geared to the group rather than the individual. Acquiring knowledge and skills has to be put in a context that children can relate to, and replacing teachers with computers would get the job done. Teachers could still be utilized to oversee the operations, coordinate curricula, conduct the oral quizzes and administer the exams which would measure progress. Of course, this method would limited in its application. Presumably, by the time they reached college, young adults would be ready for the live academic experience. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13604 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
You would've understood if you had read carefully, Carey. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1729 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
ABM's point "...to abide the current coed schooling paradigm - one that is becoming ever more FEMALE oriented, taught and administered - appear almost CRIMINAL. this is a paramount issue not only in education but in our culture as a whole. I do not believe a woman can raise a man as well as a man and a woman can together. This is perhaps the biggest problem in the Black community, and looming large for society in general. We, Black men, are simply not being raised to be men (or gentlemen for Chrishayden’s benefit) . I had not considered the impact of this in the school system until ABM mentioned it, but it makes perfect sense. Perhaps Black men are indeed schooled in a hostile environment simply because it is so female centric. This would explain why women do better in school and why things have degraded over the past 50 years as the Black family has all but self destructed during this time period. In fact, it is perhaps those masculine characteristics like aggression, and competitiveness that women try to suppress, rather than channel, in boys that are the very things keeping young men from having the intestinal fortitude to stick it out in the hostile environment we call school… Yvettep, I got my comment from quotes like this in the article: ”They start out and when they don't think they're up to snuff, they just quit. And that's why females will always dominate the college ranks.". But I’ll concede I did should those words for effect. But despite y’all blaming everyone one under the sun from churches to, school administrators, to tax payers; I still assert the problem begins at home. Imagine, if you will, a world where 80% of the Black households were run by two loving male and female parents (stay with me now, I know that might be as unrealistic as a Tyler Perry movie); do you think the problems we are talking about in education would be more or less severe? See, schools come out of communities. Communities are made up of families and individuals. If those families and individuals are dysfunctional; then so will the community. If the community is dysfunctional the school can’t be anything but. Cynique that is an interesting idea, very similar to home schooling. I would not want to go to school like that though. I think it would be a good option for some families – though it would require a lot of discipline. | ||
| Thumper Veteran Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 827 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, I have to agree with Troy on this one. Our problem is at home. There is enough blame to go around: many of the black men for being absent, and the black women for accepting their absence. Yeah, I said it. Yesterday I was watching the Judge Mathis show. There was this woman who was suing a black man for past rent due, cell phone bill, you know the usual. Now, he already has 9 kids, NO JOB, NO MONEY and he comes to live with her. She ends up kicking him out for not contributing-how could he do that when he moved in he didn't have anything, so why is she surprised-and then to top it all off, she is now pregnant with his 10th child. I fully understand and is definitely getting sick of all of these men having babies and not raising them, but I have not heard criticism from the women who lay down with them and continue to have all of these babies. What does it take for women to say to the man, if you aint taking care of baby number 1 or 2, I damn sho aint going to have baby number 5,6,7 or 8. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3488 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have not heard criticism from the women who lay down with them and continue to have all of these babies If you're saying you haven't heard criticism for these women, then perhaps you and I are listening to different things. Criticizing women (especially Black low income women) is a leading participatory sport. And really, the case that you mentioned...cases such as these (women w/10 babies by 15 different men, etc.) are not the norm although the media loves to present them as if they are. Black women have one of the highest abortion rates of any other group of women (if not the highest). And most Black women are not walking around with 10 kids. Of course they could still be faulted for having any child by a no-account man. It is easy to say that it all "starts at home." Particularly because of my research interests, I believe family is at the heart of everything. But in this glorious past that so many folks talk about there were institutional supports that helped families stay together and thrive, and stepped in when they couldn't. In the absence of such supports now, families are stressed to their limits. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1823 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
This is what I know about the subject ....nothing. That's why I got my little 2 cents in and got out of the way. But I've truely enjoyed "listening" to this debate. TC's best minds have thrilled me on this one. My fingers were itching to pull out my old boxing analogy but I didn't want Yevette to cuss me out. This has been a debate I would love to cut and paste because there's been excellent points made by all participants. Yeah, I wouldn't have joked this one ....well, Thump did come in with a little weakness and got thouroughly thrashed by Yvettep. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3489 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Cynique, for a brief while (a VERY brief while) I considered homeschooling my children. I had read the book about the Black couple in Ohio (I think) who homeschooled their boys to the Ivy League and got all hepped up. LOL Seriously, though, there are alternative high schools that are fairly like the model you outlined. I have not heard whether or not they have been successful, but I do think any kind of innovation to get kids back on track educationally should be seriously considered. @ Carey--you a mess! You're gonna get me banned from T'sC or something. I do not come on here to "thrash" anyone and you've never heard me cuss anyone out! | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1824 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well Ms. Yvettep ....the streets of hell are paved with good intentions. You may not have come here to "thrash" anyone but you beat down my man Thump *lol*. And, you may not have cuss anyone out but I think you can  . Btw, it looks like we are going to have to go to a backup unit ...the boiler went down *wink*. I think it was that big plug in the middle of the other unit. Yeah, that Cyclone turned into a rainy mist as well. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13605 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
When I was envisioning innovative educational methods, home schooling, per se, was not what I had in mind. I was all about public schools experimenting with something new since they are failing miserably with the conventional way of reaching children. Troy says he would not like to attend the kind of school I describe, but it's not about what parents would like because they think like adults. It's about what children can relate to. The electronic age has crept upon us and has permeated every area of our lives. Schools need to get on board and take things to the next level. Chalk boards have to be replaced with PC monitors, computerized devices have to replace books and students have to become their own teachers. Anybody who has ever watched a 4-year-old play a computer game has to realize how compatible the minds children are with this concept. Interacting with other students should, of course, be interdispered into the rote routine of a solitary learning, and this should take the form of recessess and breaks where kids can be free to just be kids. Molding the character of their offspring is, indeed, the job of humans and it should begin at home. Parents should be the primary role models and home is where social amenities and moral awareness should be taught, and life ambitions encouraged. But the complicated job of training the brain is best facilitated by computerized expertise. IMO. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10280 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
We pay foks who are supposedly themselves expertly educated and trained to teach and to administer schooling. If foks who teach and run the schools are going to take the titles, the power, the paycheck and credit for the good they do, then they’ve got take some of the guff for when things are lacking. Fairs fair. I don’t necessarily expect great success from public schools in poor Black communities. I KNOW what they’re up against. What they lack. How grossly unfair, bigoted and hypocritical our social and public policy is with respect to funding and staffing schools. And how their student carry burdens and pressures that make learning to read amongst the LEAST of their troubles. Still, I do, at least, expect of the schools a valid EFFORT to provide the best available opportunity and chance for the kids to succeed. And, again, my criticism are geared more toward schools continuing to do the SAME sheht that EVERYBODY can see is NOT working, at least not for a huge segment of student population, most notably that which is African American and male. I think the schools systems are either being too lazy, cowed or unimaginative to mix things up some. Mix up the make up of the teacher. The classroom. The mix of students. The types of books or other teaching instruments and methodology. Hell, even the times or days and days of the week and year school is taught should be up for grabs. When you have so much FAILURE going on it BEHOOVES you to try new sheht. WTF are you doing so stringly holding on to some +40 year teaching model with +85% of your kids can't read at grade level? Let’s be real. Many foks rather do the SAME sheht over and over again so they don’t have to be fully accountable for what THEY think is best (e.g., it's what's always been done, it's what worked for ME it should for them). Many just want to hold on until their pensions and medical benes are fully accrued and vested. Of course the parents are ultimately MOST to blame for the woeful state of educational (and not just, btw, Black foks but for American children as a WHOLE). Hell, MUCH of the problems with Black males in particular with respect to school – and most other sociological pathology – derives from there never acquiring that deep respect and fear of father who implores them to do WTF they’re ‘spose to do. But just because parents and extended family are ultimately responsible for steering their kids to safe harbor don’t mean the schools have to MEEKLY go down with a sinking ship. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1731 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique, I would not like to be schooled that way because I'm, by nature, a people person. I think I wuld learn optimally when exchanging ideas with others in a physical space. But that is just me. I too have witness the speed, ease, at which children grasp technology. They obviously catch on much more easily the older folks... But while I'm into technology, I'm not sure replacing teachers with computers is the answer; simply because junior can master guitar hero in an hour while gramps is still looking for the power button. I think computers can certainly help; but we are perhaps several generations away from software that can begin to replace a human teacher (and do a better job). On a related note: the National Council on Educating Black Children is hosting a conference geared to educating Black Boys: http://www.thumperscorner.com/ncebcbooklet.pdf | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1825 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well Well Well, I couldn't hold out. I think ABM just put a ribbon on this baby. I agree, we all know that there are many elements that go into why black males are having problems. However, let those that are paid to do their job ...DO THEIR DAMN JOBS. As long as we have kneegrows pointing fingers at anything other than the school systems and those in charge of them ....they are going to do the same ol'shit and worse. One point that ABM made stands tall ....they are using an outdated model! Another thang, how could anyone say that black males are not treated differently in many school systems. There is not a segment of society in which the black male does not have to move in a different way .....NONE! On top of that they are children and we all know how some treat their own children let alone someone elses. Yes yes yes, there's enough mess to spread around but since we are talking about education ...it would only make sense to start there. If your kitchen is dirty ...your house is dirty. I think ABM killed this one. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13608 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Oh, boo-hoo. Not all of this can be blamed on bad schools and neglected home lives. There are black boys who rise about such adversity and go on to make something of themselves. That's because they are made of the right stuff. When weak, intellectualy-challenged people breed with each other they perpetuate their kind. Smart people should have more children, dumb ones less.  | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1735 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM I did not see your post when I made mine. Sometime I open the compose window walk away for an hour come back an hour later then hit save. Unless we are willing to give complete control of our children to the school, schools can only do so much. How can a school be expected to teach kids who don't show up to class, and when they do they don't do the work or worse they disrupt the remaining students trying to learn? We can't beat the kids or treat them too sternly for fear the parents will come in and complain or maybe even assault someone. The most effective models seem to be the ones where students have an extended day and school term -- essentially students spend all of their waking hours at the school; the the damage caused at home and/or the community is minimized. Maybe we should just send all of our boys to boarding schools until they are 18. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1826 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
"When weak, intellectualy-challenged people breed with each other they perpetuate their kind" Would you like to expalin that ^ | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13609 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
No, I wouldn't like to explain that. Why do you have such a hard time understanding English? Are you intellectually challenged?  If you aren't, interpret my declaration anyway you want. | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 693 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Obama on education/schools/teachers: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28883740/ | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10283 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, Perhaps you’re being unnecessarily absolutist in your thinking here. You do NOT have wholly OWN a car to attempt to drive it in a better direction, especially if the owners themselves fully assume, expect and appreciate that you are better prepared than they are to get you to where you ALL need to go. And, of course, you can’t teach kids who aren’t even in school. But if you’re working a trite, boring, ineffectual and wholly obsolete curiculum, one that often appear to degrade and insult students; and if many-to-most of your students are truant because they are so turn off with what you’re doing, why the hell are you continuing to do the SAME thing? In fact, if MOST of your kids are hardly even showing up to school, WTF are you still doing with a JOB? We do, however, see eye-to-eye on keeping kids in school as long as possible. I’d have them there 6 days a week, I’d eliminate most holidays, cut the summer vacation time +60% and SERIOUSLY assess the overall value the extracurricular programs to ALL students, not just those who might score b-ball scholarships to universities they may never actually graduate. Hell, when you consider how much MORE time non-American kids of industrialized nations spend in school versus that of our own, when you consider how America as a WHOLE has for a couple decades now been coming up on the a$send of comparisons of European and Asian elementary and secondary school systems, I really have to wonder WHY are we shehting ourselves pretending we are serious about educating our kids when such is so obviously UNTRUE? And make no mistake, I certainly empathize with schools having to struggle with disruptive children. I say make an earnest effort to curb or cure the child of the misbehavior. And if misbehavior persists, then you get their bada$ses out of Dodge City. Because as I consider the great enormity and gravity of our educational woes, I tend to view incorrigibly misbehaving students in a philosophy akin to that of the fabled Star Trek’s Doctor Spock: "The needs of the MANY outweigh the needs of the few..." | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10284 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
FK, When the current President whom the GOP had disparaged as "the most LIBERAL Senator in Congress" starts miming some of the Republican party line with respect to the problems of American education, you should KNOW the status quo simply can NOT and should NOT endure. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13613 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Altho you had a problem with my "bright idea" about computers replacing teachers, Troy, I find your proposal about enrolling black boys in boarding schools a viable one. These youngsters need structure and discipline and focus in their lives. Regimentation provides this. Children are not capable of making decisions that will impact on their future. All they know to do is rebel. We do not want to break their spirits but, as adults, we do have to exert control over what will best benefit our youth in the long run. Boarding schools are an old remedy, but introducing them into the public education sector is an innovative idea. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1737 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
"...or the one." Abm I don't mean to sound so black and white. Nothing in life is is a "this or that" situation there are always gray areas and exceptions. When I speak in absolutes I'm really reffering to the general case. That said, I agree with basically everything you wrote in your last post. Wheher it is boarding schools or extended school day/terms something needs to be done and in a hurry... | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1837 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Excuse me Yvettep Two men coming together on the battlefield after a great war ...my heart is heavy. See, this is how real men do it. Now, if we can stop all those women that want to tradein a briefcase for a man and a family we'll be doing something. Misery loves company and those sour grapes wish to stink-up the whole house with praise for being a women in a suit. Success will never be found on a dollar bill. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13622 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
Raising a family and keeping a marriage in tact is a very hard job. If a single independent woman wants to have a man on call, and access to other people's kids who she can borrow and spoil and return to their parents at the end of the day, then so be it. Who is to say that being single doesn't allow a woman to enjoy of the best of both worlds. Males are not qualified to speak on the subject of females who don't get married. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10291 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, My guess (and HOPE) is as, alas, things worsen, we are going to be FORCED to tear up A LOT of our current social, cultural and institutional paradigms. And Education sure will and MUST be included amongst such. And I predict that not only will forms of boarding schools increase in popularity, I believe ORPHANAGES will make a comeback as we become a lot LESS protective of the parental rights of those who reckless make and raise children. Because the cost - economically, socially and culturally - to ALL of us for such has just too dayam GREAT for us to continue to bear. | ||
| Ntfs_encryption "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Ntfs_encryption Post Number: 3592 Registered: 10-2005 Rating: N/A |
"And I predict that not only will forms of boarding schools increase in popularity, I believe ORPHANAGES will make a comeback as we become a lot LESS protective of the parental rights of those who reckless make and raise children." True. And Negroes have no one to blame but themselves....... | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1742 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique, raising a family and keeping a marriage in tact is a very hard job -- your get no argument from me on that point; the numbers speak for themselves. And, an independent women can certainly do what she wants. Though I would not equate having a man "on call" and borrowing other folks kids with having the "best of both worlds". A man on call and borrowing kids can, in no way, reach the beauty of a loving family and committed relationship. While I don't think ANYONE is qualified or, further, has a right to to speak on the subject of females who do not get married. I do however think men, should speak on the issue of women who have babies without being married. Perhaps as a society we all do. That is if you believe that single parenthood is a detriment to society. ABM, those ORPHANAGES you describe are called prisons... | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13626 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy says: "...an independent women can certainly do what she wants. Though I would not equate having a man "on call" and borrowing other folks kids with having the "best of both worlds". A man on call and borrowing kids can, in no way, reach the beauty of a loving family and committed relationship." Cynique responds: You are entitled to your opinion, Troy. But we did establish that everybody is not marriage material. This is not a cookie cutter world, and people who are able to compartmentalize booty calls and surrogot parenting may very well be the type of self-absorbed individuals who do not need to bond, who do not want the permanent responsibilties of a committed relationship; not when they can have it both ways. They want to be free to do their thing whatever it is and whenever they can - to travel, shop, eat out, be alone, spend money extravagantly, - keep a kid for a day or two, spend the week-end with a lover. This is what fulfills them. Marriage is actually a life style. Some people are, for want of a better word, "selfish" and prefer their lifestyle to be more flexible. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1744 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique, OK, I get what you are saying and fundamentally agree. But, for the sake of argument: Is marriage simply a "life style" or really the foundation of our community? Should we, as a Black community, strive to have certain goals for most of our members; including marriage, spiritual development, education, physical fitness, etc or should these things be left up to the individual to decide if they are worthy goals? It seems to me that part of the reason this country is falling apart, with Black folks on the bleeding edge is that folks are free to pursue their selfish desires without any checking from the community at large... I'm not saying a person has to get married -- far from it. What I'm saying is that it is better for society at large if these individuals did not have children. Because people use this exact same argument to have kids out of wedlock -- "it is a life style choice and no one has any business deciding what is right for me." | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10295 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, Let's pretend there is no such thing as marriage. At least not to the prevalence, degree and style we have assume such should be and/or have come to expect. Then HOW do you adequately raise, train and protect children? Moreover, how do we include within out post-marital world sufficient direction and rearing that account for the different needs, inclination, problems and talents that center on sex-gender? Because I as said in a prior post, the Black MALES are particularly screwed if they're going to be raised in household and communities that are almost entirely dominated by WOMEN. The males are NOT going to learn to adequately control themselves, how to understand what's going on within them, how to harness those energies and direct them into more productive pursuits. We see COUNTLESS examples of the consequences of what I describe everyday and myriad ways. I'll never tell anyone he or she MUST marry. But, to me, all that Independent Woman bvllsheht pretty ENDS when somebody gets pregnant. Because BOTH mother AND father are needed to aptly raise a kid. And generally when they FAIL do such - TOGETHER - we ALL are negatively affected by such. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10296 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy: "ABM, those 'ORPHANAGES' you describe are called prisons..." ABM: Indeed they are, my brotha. Indeed they are... | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13627 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
A truly independent person doesn't want a child. A child takes away a woman's independence. Motherhood robs her of her freedom. In a pluralistic society marriage is an option that is instrumental in preserving the family unit. However, the definition of a family has been blurred by the many variables that can come into play when people cobble together a group under one roof. A 2-parent home where the father is withdrawn, abusive or constantly at odds with his wife can be more detrimental to children than a female-headed household where the mother is a nuturing loving and capable. Marriage is not necessarily the salvation of children, but neglect is certainly the enemy of them, and neglect can occur in any domestic scenario. One solution to the black dilemma is a simple caveat. It's about birth control, about refraining from having more children than you can take care of. IMO. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1854 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well Cynique, you've done it again. You were doing okay until this dropped: "A truly independent person doesn't want a child. A child takes away a woman's independence. Motherhood robs her of her freedom" That is not a fact and it's baseless. Takes away from her independence?!?! Let me run to a dictionary and see what independence means. No, I should ask for yours because you have this thang all messed up. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13631 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
Independence means you are not dependent on anything that would impede your progress. In this case, not restricted by the constraints of a child. Because her child has to come first, a mother is not free to do as she pleases. Why is that so hard for you to understand??? Even after becoming an adult, a mother is always beholden to her childen, and this is reciprocal. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10301 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey, How many truly Independent Women would (or COULD) EXIST if their mothers were as stridently Independent as some would have them be? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13632 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
The answer to ABM's questions is "0". So what does that prove? That because their mothers had them, those who don't want children should be so grateful that they should have kids whether they want them or not. How silly. Some men don't seem to be able to fathom the idea that women have a right to choose motherhood. These males seem threatened by this idea, almost as if afraid that that if some women decide to be child-free, this idea will become contagious and other women will follow suit. There is no danger of this. Many more women want children than not. But for those who prefer to live life on their own terms, who do not cotton to having their world revolve around children, bypassing motherhood is and always has been a choice that affords a woman her independence. The same goes for remaining single. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1855 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
I understand, yet if we took the narrow scope of "dependence" that as been applied here, we all would have to stick our heads in the sand. To tag "dependence' as a negative is akin to saying we shouldn't eat because we are dependent on food. There is NO vocation/exitence in life that does not have a dependency on people, places or things. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13633 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Whether the words "dependence" or "independence" can be construed as being negative, is determined by the context in which they are used. I was not talking about life in general. I was speaking specifically about single women and the ramifications of their decisions in regard to having children. Furthermore, what you consider negative, Carey, could very well be considered positive by other people because this is a subjective issue. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1856 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yes, this is definitely a subjective issue. Since I nor you have every experienced the "independence" YOU feel a women would lose if see got married. I think we will/should agree to disagree. When I think of independence, I think of a persons ability to think on their own and without the constaints of several lifes struggles, other than children. It would be nice to see if women that consider themself "independent" have children. Then the answer would come from the subject and I doubt it would match any being offered here today. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13634 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
What are you talking about? I am an independent woman right now. Free to do whatever I want. No complaints here. You continue to think you can speak on behalf of the opposite sex. stfu.  | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13635 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
BTW, I don't have children. I have adults. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1747 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM wrote: Let's pretend there is no such thing as marriage.... ABM, we do not have to pretend as this is, effectively, the situation; and the results are disastrous. To answer your question: "Then HOW do you adequately raise, train and protect children?" My response is: I do not think we can. This is why I believe we must fix the nuclear family. Improve the family and everything else will follow. Allow it to continue to degrade and watch Blacks folks predicament continue to worsen. Cynique. In some ways I think two ideas are becoming muddled. First, I think, and at this point hope, we all agree that the ideal way to raise a child is with a married man and women who are in a mature loving relationship. Of course a child raised by a loving grandmother or a loving gay couple would most likely be better off than being raised in a dysfunctional family. Second, there is this issue of independence I don't recall ever disagreeing with you more or agreeing with Carey as much. In a normally functioning society no one is truly "independent". We all have some level of responsibility that prevents us from doing whatever we want or being free of "anything that would impede your progress..." (as you have defined it). We are ALL directly or indirectly responsible for the children in our society whether we birthed them babies or not. Minimally taxes guarantee this. More importantly however the statement: "A truly independent person doesn't want a child. A child takes away a woman's independence. Motherhood robs her of her freedom." I could not disagree with this more. Perhaps the ultimate expression of "freedom" is the ability to choose to gave birth. There are cultures that prevent men and women from having more than one child. Or even worse our own history in this country shows us a time when the white man could impregnate (read: rape) our women with total impunity. "Independence" is in concert with this freedom -- not opposed to it. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13636 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
I am speaking in the vernacular of the feminists. You males continue to inject your viewpoints - which are just that; viewpoints. Would you be more placated if I used the word "liberated" rather than "independent"? As I previously said, when independent is used in the context of child bearing, it is perfectly clear that this word means a woman who does not choose to have children has declared her independence from the traditional role society has desgnated as being the preferred norm for the female of the species. As far as a correlation between a good marriage and a well-adjusted child are concerned, who can argue that this is a valid claim?? But this does not preclude posing the question as to whether there is a correlation between a good marriage and good parenting skills? In the year 2009 where all bets are off, pardon me if I roll my eyes when I think how clueless some mothers and fathers are and how eletronic gadgets and on-line web sites have undermined parental influence, and how pop icons have become the role models of choice, usurping the stressed-out breadwinners and doting care givers who are still committed to their vows. The world has become a very complicated place, and you can no longer invest your hopes in what worked in the past. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3497 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Troy, your points sound nice. But I think you are speaking more of "reproductive freedom"--not independence in the way that the word is most frequently used. I cannot speak for men, as they often are given/take a lot more liberty in maintaining their independence as fathers. But for women, mothering definitely means giving up the independence you once may have had. You must, over time, learn to take back what independence and autonomy that you can. For me, this was deciding I would read novels again, and for that hour or two hours I was not to be disturbed short of fractured limbs, major blood loss, or fire. I also came to value my times away from my children while traveling for business. Frequently friends in various cities invite me to stay with them when I travel to their town. I politely decline. This is my opportunity to lounge around my hotel room in my undergarments, use the toilet with the door open, watch what I want on TV (or not watch TV at all), eat a leisurely meal without having to cut anyone's food. And most of all, be called by my name and professional title instead of "Mrs. [my husband's last name]" or "[my daughters' names]'s Mom." I do not for one second regret my decision to have children. This experience has resulted in a personal growth that I would never have experienced otherwise. Plus the type of love I feel for my children is beyond what I ever imagined could be possible. But I am in no way "independent." I did not have children until my mid-30s. As such, I do not feel I missed out on life as a without-kids person. I traveled the world, spent lots of time with my husband, did as I pleased. Thus, I did not feel "robbed" of anything when that was over. Plus, now as my children are getting older, I am able to reclaim more and more independence as they themselves become less dependent on me. But I know from my own relationship with my own mother that they will never fully be "grown"--I will always be their mama and always be there to step in and help even when that may mean putting my own needs and desires aside. You have to be in a place (again, especially as a woman) where you can accept this and come up with a workable re-definition of "independence" as a mother. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10304 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, I think we would agree that marriage is the most effective model for rearing healthy, productive and law-abiding citizenry. But my dilemma is as long as we are going to allow foks to frivolously procreate SANS marriage or even the merest promise of a commitment to responsibly raise children together, I think emphasizing marriage becomes a moot point thus we should at least start to discuss possible alternatives. Now, I probably would agree these alternatives will likely prove ineffectual. But at least we should discuss them... | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10305 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Perhaps, too often, mothers are made to sacrifice too much and fathers too little. Or, perhaps, mothers often make a fuss of doing certain things that a family could survive her not doing, or not doing as often. But we all - even those of us who are ourselves mothers - have and/or will reap the benefit of someone ELSE'S sacrificing some share of his or her personal freedom (money, resources, time and energy). This is what is required of ALL of us so that those who come after can survive and succeed. I think my mother is proud of me for several reasons. But what I think she is most proud of is that she thinks me to be a good father (and husband). She is happy that I have demonstrated the willingness and effort to do for her grandbabies what she did for me. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1858 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Okay, I am a man, but it's safe to say that ones independence is not defined by their sex. I have to champion the point Troy made: "In a normally functioning society no one is truly "independent". We all have some level of responsibility that prevents us from doing whatever we want or being free of "anything that would impede your progress..." (as you have defined it)." Then I looked at Yvetteps statement" "But for women, mothering definitely means giving up the independence you once may have had. You must, over time, learn to take back what independence and autonomy that you can. For me, this was deciding I would read novels again, and for that hour or two hours I was not to be disturbed short of fractured limbs, major blood loss, or fire" In her statement I noticed she said, giving up "THE" independence she ONCE had. She defined her independence. She did NOT give away her TOTAL indepentance. I believe this is were Cynique my be strandling the fench. I appreciated her moving from indendence to liberated yet it still shaded the issue. I agree with Troy, the field was getting muddled. No one is truely independent ...married with children or single with a dog. AND, as Yevettep illustrated, to be dependent is not a state that is continuous, even with children around (throwing a bone - a fig leaf). Sure, a responsible person may feel some constaints of being married with children. BUT, they never have to give up their total independence ....that's a fact. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13638 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I totally appreciate your personal perspective about motherhood and independence, Yvette. Why? Because you know whereof you speak. To me, men's minds seem incapable of fine-tuning the word "independence". They keep wanting to make it interchangeable with the word "dependence", or to stretch it and bend it and apply it to the world at large instead of focusing on the specific question of whether or not a woman sacrifices being able to live a life free of maternal obligations when she has a child. Carey certainly couldn't be accused of being independent because his irrelevant argument is dependent on blurring the issue by speaking in generalities. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1749 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
It is amazing where this conversation has gone considering where it started... Cynique, it seems you believe men are incapable of understanding very much of what a woman as to deal with in life as it deals with marriage or raising children; for the simple reason that men are not women. It also sound like fathers, do not loose nearly has much of their freedom or independence after their child is born, which further disqualifies men from having a meaningful opinion on the subject or understanding the women perspective. Is this an accurate assessment of how you feel? Yvettep, actually you probably could speak for fathers more than you know. As a father what you wrote resonated with me. I can easily relate to everything you wrote (save the name change). The experience you shared (at least in the post above) is universal to parents regardless of sex. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3500 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Troy, it may sound "universal" to you because of the type of father you are and choose to be. The fact is, men are given a lot more leeway as to how much independence they will retain after becoming fathers than women who are mothers are given. We can see this dynamic clearly with artists who are male and female. A male author who is a father rarely gets asked questions about how he "balances" fatherhood and his work in interviews. He is generally not looked down upon if he relegates his fatherhood duties (besides financial duties) in order to become a great author. Female authors are not given this same latitude--as evidenced, for example, to the various reactions around disclosures by Rebecca Walker about her mother. I'll give one other example, from my personal life. My husband is an excellent father. Yet he never thought it selfish to continue to do the things he likes to do after becoming a father--playing tennis, watching ESPN even when the kids are sitting right there, poker night, whatever. It just never crossed his mind that he should not continue to do these things. When he is out of town at a conference, no one thinks to offer me help with the kids, or asks him how he feels being away from his kids. For me, I had to actively negotiate both my feelings about pursuing my interests again as well as my ability to make that happen. I had to decide that "sneaking" to read a novel behind a locked bathroom door was not ideal and had to change. When I go to a conference, people do ask about my kids and how much I miss being away from them. Back home my husband nearly gets a medal for taking care of his own children in my absence. (You should see the way little old Black ladies treat him when they see him out grocery shopping with our daughters!) In other words, I think for men giving up independence to be a certain kind of father is more of a choice than it is for women. Carey: the fact that none of us is ever "really" or "totally" independent does not change my experience that, specifically as a woman, my hold on my independence post-childbearing was more severely loosened than that of most of the men I have observed. This is not to say anything disparaging about men or fatherhood. There is just a difference there. What I will also acknowledge is that for men facing fatherhood, the financial piece often weighs a lot more heavily on their minds than it does for women facing motherhood. Again--just a difference. And this, too, has to do with different expectations society holds for women/mothers and men/fathers. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 1750 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, that was very well put. You've made this very clear and I see where you are coming from. While I'm not willing to abandon marriage, at least not yet, as the optimal configuration for raising a child, and building our community, it is obvious marriage as we know it is failing in today's world. I suspect much of his failure has to do with the mismatch between the gender roles, and tasks men and women actually perform (or want to perform). Perhaps the two were never aligned... enter the feminist movement. Since a man's role, traditionally, was to be the bread winner he is perceieved as doing his job if he does this. Anything above and beyond this he is heaped with praise. If a woman does the housework she is looked upon as a good wife, however if she too is a bread winner (as most have to be) rather than heaped with praise she is somehow viewed as threating the husband's position (God forbid she makes more). Perhaps the resulting discord is one reason why marriages fail. Today we have a majority of people who are two or more generations deep in being raised without fathers in the home. The two parent household was never modeled and few people have a clue on how to make it work, or for that matter why it is important. Today a significant portion of people will never even try to get married. Of those that do the vast majority will crash and burn. I really hate to be cynical, but right now I see nothing on the horizon that will stem or even reverse the tide. I thought a seemingly model family like the Obamas might help. But I think the average person sees the Obama's as way out of reach -- in much the same way Black kids in the 'hood dismissed the Cosby's as "just a TV family", not real(istic). | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1861 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
I believe most in this discussion are in agreement. As Troy pointed out in one of his earlier posts, this medium has it's limitations. There seemed to be a road block with the word "independence" and what it means to each individual. As always, a few replies were fueled with emotions when others didn't agree with their view or they were unable to express it in specific enough terms. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13639 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Somebody once said that if men had to give birth, no family would ever have more than one baby. It's a fact that the brains of males and females are wired differently The role of a father and a mother in the family unit are different and always have been. And so it goes. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3501 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Heck, Cynique, if every woman was like me every family would just have one child (or one set of twins, as the case may be ). | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1864 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
And so what goes? You should be grateful that there are men around to help make babies like Yevettep, that can rescue you, Cynique. I can't believe you laid this on me ...."Carey certainly couldn't be accused of being independent because his irrelevant argument is dependent on blurring the issue by speaking in generalities" I know you didn't say "I" speak in generalities. I think you where the one that said women lose their "independence". Now how general can it get? That statement was asking for a good F**kin'. Your Godmother rescued you by defining what she lost. But hold up ...it's hard to "discuss" with a self proclaimed cynic who has said that she sees no rewards in affirming another's remarks/point. So your whole bag-gish is filled with generalities - smoke and screens. Hey Cynique, is it going to rain today? Cynique: Somewhere in the world it's raining Hey Cynique, are your eyes brown? Cynique: I don't know, am not looking at them right now, am looking through them. Hey Cynique, did you see a dog go by here? Cynique: I know some dogs and I go by here? Hey Cynique, do you ever agree with someone that has a somewhat different view than yours? Cynique: STFU | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 1865 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
*LOL* ...I know she's sleep right now. She was up late last night stirring up some hater brew . I thought I'd punch her in the face to wake her up | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10312 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, I believe very often women do too MUCH then get pissy when we men simply will NOT do the same, at least not to the degree or intensity that you do such. For instance, when my kids were young and I were away, my wife felt she had to constantly curb and check what our kids were doing. Conversely, when I were alone with them, I pretty much let them do what they want provided no one was getting hurt or breaking sheht. So, while she’d often feel overwrought by having to deal with them on her own, I’d pretty much be thinking to myself, "Why does she complain about seeing to the kids so much? This was EASY. *shrugs*" Now, did I often not do enuff to see after them? Sure. But did my wife often do too MUCH. I think that was OFTEN the case as well. Another issue we had was our youngest kids for the longest time refused to sleep in her own bed. Early on, our kid (who was also a premie) had sleep apnia, so we were on constant alert about her breathing while she sleep. She (Thank the LAWD!) soon got over the apnia but NOT the desire to sleep in our bed. Now I was totally cool with just putting the kid in her own bed and allowing her to deal with learning to sleep alone as ALL children eventually do. But my wife wouldn’t have it. She projected all sort of possible child psychosis into the sheht. So the kid’s not only sleeping in the bed with us, but she’s sleeping all on, under and atop my WIFE, pretty much wrecking her sleep. Then, of course, my wife COMPLAINED about not getting a good nite sleep and mostly blamed ME for it. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! And I can provide similar examples of our differing views and handling of chores, tending to and dealing with extended family and friends, etc. I think too often mothers do not seek and establish space for THEMSELVES within their marriage, then want to blame their men and the rest of society for what they simply failed to do for THEMSELVES. And here often lies this different perception and opinion of men having too much freedom within a marriage while women having too little. Bottomline: We men usually DEMAND more of our freedom than you women will demand. Now, yes, in prior generations, the roles of husband and wife, father and mother were very distinct and separate. But the men of today to NOT as rigidly implore such as their grandfather might have. There is room for women and mothers of today to live much more freely than their grandmothers might have ever dared to imagine. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13640 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
You and I are never on the same wave length, Carey. Nothing you say ever phases me because your rambling irrelevancy is never on point. Tell me, when I'm talking about independent women and you're going off on tangents talking about how everybody everywhere does this and does that, who is the one speaking in generalities??? Tell me also, what did I say about men that implied that they shouldn't be around to father children??? And what Yvette said elabaorated on my contentions rather than justified your muddled complaining. You seem to have a great need to have your claims validated. Why do you care whether or not I agree with you or with anyone else? You're a wanna-be mediator who is nothing more than a ol wimpy gadabout. If you call your post a slap in the face, I would hate to see what you call an "erection". Puleeze. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13641 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
 @Yvette. Maybe with the popularity of Caesarian births, nowadays men would have more than one child, the implication of this old saying being that male of the species can't stand pain... | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 709 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
While researching today, I found some stats that might be of interest to those participating in this thread: http://www.childrensjustice.org/stats.htm | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10315 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ferociouskitty, Yeah. The stats for children who are being born and raised outside of marriage are pretty dayam GRIM... | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 713 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
And there's a soon-to-be-release book, "Families Without Fathers: Fathers, Marriage and Children in American Society". I got an email about it this morning from Amazon because of my prior, related purchases. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1412810388/ref=pe_5050_11803860_snp_dp | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10319 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ferociouskitty, The Editorial Review for "Families Without Fathers: Fathers, Marriage and Children in American Society" included on the Amazon cite your last link references to included some interesting commentary: "Many 'experts' feel these seemingly inevitable changes should be celebrated; they claim that the "new" families, which often lack a strong father, are actually healthier than traditional two-parent families-or, at the very least, do children no harm. But as David Popenoe shows in Families Without Fathers this optimistic view is severely misguided." "Our situation will only get worse, Popenoe warns, unless men are willing to renew their commitment to their marriages and to their children." "He suggests concrete policies, and new ways of thinking and acting that will help all fathers improve their marriages and family lives, and tells us what we as individuals and as a society can do to support and strengthen the most important thing a man can do." It might prove interesting to observe how the author proposes reconciling men earnestly attempting to commit more to marriage and their children with the burgeoning freedom today’s woman and mother enjoy, especially as such is largely buoyed by a plethora laws and social policy and engineering that appear to encourage and maintain women becoming even more INDEPENDENT of men. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 13643 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
Married mothers and childless singles are not in the same category. No married woman in her right mind is going to discourage a man from being a good father, because the better a father her mate is, the better the chances of her reclaiming some of the independence she gave up when she had children. Married men trying to be responsibile fathers have nothing to do with the independence of a single women. Bottom line, backsliding absentee fathers are who create self-reliant mothers, not laws and societal mores. |
