AALBC.com's Thumper's Corner Discussion Board: Blaklioness or Little Kitty..???
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Ntfs_encryption Regular Poster Username: Ntfs_encryption Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2005 Rating: N/A Votes: 0 (Vote!)

Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:35 pm: |

Blacklioness wrote:
***Ok...shoot...I had to go back and read the header to this puppy to make sure we just took a slight divergence off the path instead of leaving the entire country! LOL!
### Sorry about this very belated response. I’ve been having problems with my network. Trying a wireless setup. Still having a few problems. I know the response to this post is past expiration and probably dead. But I still felt compelled to respond to our rather spirited ongoing dialogue. Again, I apologize for this extremely late response dating back to 30 October 2005 under the post “Should Oprah Speak Out”.
***Anyway, first of all, you need to know that unless something is GENUINELY impossible, I don't generally let people hold me to a different standard than the one(s) they hold for themselves. There's no hypocrisy in my world, so you won't get to insist that I show you "scientific proof" of the obvious while you get to refute my stances with emotional NON-responses. Fair enough?? Good! Moving on...
### I’m not exactly sure what you mean. I’m not holding you to a different standard. That is something I am very adamant about. I see people arrogantly holding people to various execrable standards that are only “relative” to their personal self serving agendas and issues. I have “one” standard and I hold everyone to that same standard. And I don’t recall refuting your assertions with “emotional NON-responses”. Sorry.
***I do NOT see anything funny about the notion of white supremacy---a system, whether or not you agree, that exists purely to destroy the global African population.
### Good. Neither do I. And I don’t ever recall meeting anyone who felt that racism was “funny”. I see no humor in the oppression and subjugation of black people (or any other group of people regardless of their race or ethnicity). So, this something we can both agree on.
***Further, I have NO problem deeming others who willingly aid that system (in whatever way) the enemy, as their destructive ideologies are not mere differences of opinion.
### Hmmmmm……..I’m not really sure what your personal definition of “willingly aiding” the enemy is. I guess it depends on what you believe aiding and abetting is. Difference of opinion? Not agreeing with you? And what exactly is your definition of a “destructive ideology”? Just curious.
***How effectively do you think you can compare white discussion/debates with black ones? This is like comparing apples and oranges.
### Very easily. Every argument or debate is not the same. But regardless, an intelligent and civil debate should not be restricted to racial genetics. My point was whites who passionately disagree with other whites do not inject race as a factor for disagreement. It is irrelevant (as it should be). However, there is an unfortunate contingency of self anointed blacks who believe that any black person who disagrees with their personal brand of political beliefs, must be punished, ridiculed and subjected to silly racist name calling. To them, it’s ok (and mandatory) to question the “race loyalty” of someone who does not share their personal ideology. Never mind the initial issue that is in dispute or disagreement, it’s “race loyalty” that is central to their argument (for disagreeing). This I find to be counterproductive and misleading. Stick to the pertinent facts of the disagreement and leave the “I’m blacker than thou” juvenile grandstanding in the parking lot.
***White people have NOT walked in our shoes, so they take for granted MANY things that Black people do not.
### This is true. I wholeheartedly agree. Most whites are totally ignorant to the issues that many non-whites face on a daily basis. White people can live out their entire lives and never have to think of themselves as being white. Being white is not tied to their central existence. Nor does having white skin deny them access to economic, political or social success. White people also do not have to concern themselves with being “perceived” as inferior or less qualified for no other reason than having white skin. As sad as it is, many whites find it extremely difficult to believe that racism still exists or that blacks and Latinos are treated differently than they are when given similar or identical conditions. To be fair, in many cases, I think its more ignorance rather than out right venomous David Duke or Tom Metzger style racism. But regardless, most whites are simply clueless to the inequities in American life based on skin color.
But how can they not be clueless when the world they live in is virtually all white. And supplement that world with people like Sean Hannity, John Gibson, Laura Ingram, Bill O’Reilly, and Rush Limbaugh (along with FOX News channel) telling them everyday that they are superior. These right wing conservative pundits maintain a daily bleating mantra, stating anyone who disagrees with the present presidential administration, disapproves of the war in Iraq, is not a Christian conservative, is pro-choice, or believes there are situations where affirmative action may be appropriate, is wrong and unpatriotic.
***You are right when you say that whites don't play the "race card" when debating/disagreeing with each other----what history do they have that would allow for this?
### This is true. But still, it does not matter. For example, if you and I debate about whether affirmative action should be allowed in college admissions, why can it not be a civil debate about the facts rather than a “race loyalty” litmus test ? Let us say you feel it degrades blacks by suggesting they lack the genetic skills to compete with other groups coming from similar or identical socioeconomic backgrounds. You also maintain it serves to increase racial tensions and misconceptions about the intellectual abilities of blacks. I may counter that by stating “white affirmative” action is constantly at work. Whites are constantly given jobs, promotions and opportunities regardless if they are qualified or not on a daily basis (it’s called nepotism, networking, just being there at the right time, being connected and keeping it in the family). No one (white) complains nor openly discusses this. It’s only a problem if the individuals skin is black. I may also state that numerous major corporations and educational institutions feel that recruiting minorities for diversity is a plus for them and the country at large. Blah, blah, blah….. But why would I have to resort to calling you an “Uncle Tom” or a flunky for white people because we disagree? It’s not necessary. It would only cheapen my argument and reduce it to a race baiting rant.
*** I asked you about the effects of institutional racism because when I laid my ideas on the table, you blatantly rejected them under the guise of lack of scientific "data".
### No I did not. You need to go back and read my post again. I know how institutional racism can affect people. What I rejected was your naïve promotion of racial hacks (i.e. F. C. Welsing) and simple minded racist demagoguery.
***I insisted, as you insisted of me, that you present your scientifically supported notions about the effects of racism on the Black mind.
### Ha! Ha! Ha! Let me get this right. The almighty fierce “Lioness of Blackness” is unaware of the affects of institutional racism??? I have to present you with academically verifiable information to prove that racism can have profound affect on the psychology of people? Wow! I’m shocked. Uhhhhh…ok….if you like, I can provide you with a listing of creditable books and references for your personal research. I can do that.
***Thus far, the only "evidence" you have presented is your selection of six personal friends who all denied the color factor in their choice of mates. Again, I'm not a statistician, but both you and I know darn well that that is NOT a scientifically/statistically sound way of gathering data.
### Did you carefully read what I wrote???? I never stated nor claimed it was a scientific polling! I just happen to know these people and asked them. I was curious about their personal experiences. That was it. I WAS VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS. I in no way suggested their responses represented a general population at large. Just because you don’t like their personal choices for mates, that does not make faulty or politically suspect.
*** What makes Welsing's research "quackery" if you cannot DISPROVE what she says? We're not all scientists, so we make observations and analyses based on our experiences; so, if you want "proof", then you'd better be prepared to give it.
### OMG! This seems to get worse as I read on. You actually believe that I have to “DISPROVE” (as if her ridiculous notions should actually be taken seriously enough to merit a serious academic rebuttal) to you that white people were originally “genetic black albinos” who were driven out of Africa by darker skinned blacks or that white people "have great difficulty in absorbing energy data from the universe at multiple frequencies deep energy levels" (those are her words -not mine)? I have to “disprove” the aforementioned? Ha! Ha! Ha! I don’t think so. If you are comfortable believing that, I can live with it. Trust me. If you seriously cannot see the silliness and racist absurdity in such fatuous contentions, I seriously doubt anything I can say will help you. I don’t debate or argue for the sake of doing so. At some point I have to draw a line between the ridiculous and the intellectually worthy. This definitely is not one of them. Please remember something my dear: WHO REALLY IS A FOOL? SOMEONE WHO IS A FOOL? OR SOMEONE WHO ARGUES WITH A FOOL? E’nuff said.
*** You doubted my SPECIFIC beliefs on the psychological damage incurred by racism but, despite that, you did agree that there was an impact. Again, as I stated earlier, you need to state the nature………I stated that Blacks, as a whole, have done nothing about the PSYCHOLOGICAL damage caused by our enslavement (plantation and colonial).
### I have never denied nor questioned the affects of racism on black people. Where you and I seem to disagree is to the extent and what exactly are these pathological manifestations. I am not as caviler as you are about condemning and calling people “damaged” simply because they do not agree with my personal brand of politics and ideology. You seem to be very comfortable calling people names and labeling them as “damaged” for no other reason than not believing what you believe or making choices in their personal lives that you disagree with. And what exactly must a black person do in your eyes to execrate themselves of the psychological affects of white racism? To think “authentically black”(?) according to the minimum requirements of the Lioness “keepin’ it real” protocols? Details please.
***Pick a better country to do what?? There is NO plausible way you can manipulate your way around the fact……………………. leaving the U.S. is like going from the fryer to the fire, but what I state is nonetheless true. So, I'm going to ask you again...pick a better country to do what????
### Very simple. Since you rant and rail away about the evils of America and it’s government (and I’m not defending any of the wrong doings and duplicity of American history or the polices of the government, both foreign and domestic –I want to be very clear about this), name a better country where black people have a superior standard of living, political and social freedom and economic possibilities as in the United States. You can gnash your teeth, pound your fist, foam at the mouth and scream every bellicose racist insult possible, but you cannot name a single country with an overhaul superior standard of living, opportunity and achievement possibilities for black people. NOT ONE!!! Oh…am I wrong? Ok. Once again, do you care to give me a list of countries where black people have a better standard of living and are freer than blacks in the US? Where? Brazil? Cameroon? Cuba? France? Swaziland? Saudi Arabia? Sudan? Never mind personal attacks and vindictive toxic name calling, just answer the question. Talk the talk, walk the walk. I’ll wait for you to post your list of “I picked a better country than the horrible disgusting USA” albeit a diatribe.
***You like to argue that Black people are just making choices. So, if we're dealing with Black women and the hair issue, I will say again, IF THE CHOICE TO PERM, STRAIGHTEN, ETC. IS PURELY ABOUT STYLE, THEN POLL BLACK WOMEN AND SEE WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THOSE WOMEN WILL GO WITHOUT PROCESSING THEIR HAIR FOR A GIVEN PERIOD OF TIME.
### Oh, that’s not necessary. I can tell you right now without resorting to personal polling. Many black women simply straighten or perm their hair for manageability. They are not attempting to make a political statement nor are their lives “politically suspect” as your nefarious accusations suggest. Unlike you, I don’t judge black women for perming their hair. If they choose to do so, fine. If not, I have no problem with that either. Currently, a very popular trend with black women is wearing long braided extensions and weaves. I see it every single day. I’ve asked a number of black women about this and their response for doing so was one of “convenience” and not having to deal with prepping and primping their hair (their words –not mine!). I personally don’t care for them (extensions and weaves) but I will not judge a black woman for having a “weak political ideology” simply because she wears extensions and weaves. Same goes with straightening or perming their hair. Why should I? That’s your job. You have arrogantly assumed the self designated authority to demonize, call names and denigrate people for not thinking like you. I do not attach political correctness and acceptability to the manner in which black women wear their hair. Some of the most successful, politically fierce and astute black women in history have straighten or permed their hair. Fanny Lou Hammer, Zora Neal Hurston, Madam Walker, Shirley Chisholm, Ida B. Wells, Constance Baker Motely and Althea Gibson, all straightened or permed their hair. But simply because of this (and only this), they do not pass the Lioness’s litmus test for “political Afrocentic purity” and acceptability. Ok, ok…they do pass, but they should have points deducted for not wearing an Afro or corn rolls. Right?
****You will quickly learn just how much shit you're shoveling. You claim that Madame Walker "helped" Black women. Helped Black women how? How does inventing something that perpetuates going against the nature of who you are "helpful"?
### Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. Then again, it’s very sad if you don’t
understand. But to be fair, I do understand your stance against black
people straightening their hair since that is not in their natural
genetics. I don’t have a problem with that. Not at all. But you and I do
disagree when it comes to “condemning” black women by suggesting that
they have some type “psychological damage” or they are politically weak
for doing so. Such thinking is shallow, self absorbent and misguided.
***…..so proud and fierce in fact that she helped raise a child who raised a child who keeps racist "friends" who ignorantly believes that ALL Black women have crusty feet!
### That’s his issues, not mine. I’m not responsible for his personal
experiences or his personal thinking. We share many other subjects of interest
( music, art, cinema, literature, politics, health and fitness, etc). I’ve known him for
more than 20 years. I had no idea he felt that way until last year. I was
not about to start foaming at the mouth, ranting, calling him names
and dismiss him for giving his personal opinions and beliefs, whether I
agreed with him or not. I thought it was ridiculous and we did disagree on this
particular subject and moved on. That was that. The subject never came up again.
So, if you’re attempting to infer that I am somehow doing something unacceptable
or politically incorrect or that I should sever my relationship with him over a
disagreement, it’s not going to cut it. Sorry.
***You claim I'm downgrading the quality of an individual's talents or
skills because of who they marry or date. I say ………….Henry Louis
Gates can write and speak well, but that does NOT mean his message
is not tinged with white supremacist (i.e. Eurocentric) rhetoric.
### Once again, I’m going to ask you for clarification. You have suggested Mr. Gates is somehow “not authentically black”(?) in his thinking and that his writings are “Eurocentic” regurgitations. Can you please explain exactly what you mean? Do you have any specific examples of this alleged intellectual purveyor of white supremacy? I don’t recall Mr. Gates spouting black inferiority or unjustly demonizing black people. Do you have specific examples of so-called racist Eurocentric rhetoric or anti-black inferences he has made? I’d like to see them. Again, details please…
***Again, I'm going to insist that you not muddle issues for your convenience. You're deluding YOURSELF by thinking that who someone chooses as mate is not about that individual's politics and character when we are discussing THIS particular issue. What is "meaningful dialogue" when you can't speak honestly without being mislabeled "racist"?
### I’m deluding myself? I see. Uhhhhhh….seems like you are on some type of a roll here but I’m not sure what you were attempting to say here. It doesn’t make much sense. Could you try again?
***Justice will have its day in court. What do you THINK I mean by that?? I used myself to represent similar minded African people who will see justice for all the wrongs that have been committed against us (by ANYONE) under white supremacy.
### Oh really? I see…..so what exactly is this perceived “justice” going to be? And how will the transgressors be punished and exactly who will mete out the justice? Just curious……

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