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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 301
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 11:36 am: | 
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Perhaps if more of our youth were aware of these opportunities a few more would invest a little more energy in their studies...
Complete Article: http://www.nymag.com/nymetro/news/bizfinance/biz/features/15197/
"If the firm split its potential $11 billion pie equally among all 22,000 employees worldwide, they’d each get $500,000. But that’s not how it works.
There are 250 or so partner managing directors, each of whom would receive an average bonus of $2 million right off the top. The rest depends on the success of their part of the business, and it can be massive. Top income-producers like Mark McGoldrick, co-head of global proprietary investment, can make upward of $40 million.
Just-out-of-college analysts make $70,000 and hope to match that in bonus. Associates, with M.B.A.’s, hope to match their $95,000 salaries with a bonus, too. Secretaries who make as much as $75,000 have their sights set on bonuses of roughly $15,000."
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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Let's see, they have 22,000 employees.
Even if the workforce was all black (dream on) what would become of the other 39 million plus?
Face it they have almost as much chance of playing in the NBA, becoming a big time rapper or Hollywood actor (the current pipe dreams) as landing one of them jobs. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 308
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:53 pm: |
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22,000 is just one company in the industry. There are many others some of them Black owned though not nearly as large.
Dude every Black person (and white for that matter) is not capable of performing these jobs. However I believe that the avergae person has a much better chance at getting one of these gigs versus one in the NBA.
The problem I'm pointing out is that most of our young people are oblivious to the oppotunites. Opportunites that are more easily obtained. We see basketball players everywhere. The general poupaltion almost never sees the investment banker or trader.
Your are right we do have almost the same poor chance of getting one of these gigs today. But that is because of ignorance, and lack of perparation. The opportunites are there. Many of the companies (including this one) are going out of their way -- literally -- to attract and hire Black folks for these jobs.
Our African Brothers and Ssisters are competing quite well. Our homeboy's need to do better.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 12:44 am: |
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Troy,
Our African Brothers and Sisters are competing "quite well" because they come here with an education. We all "need to do better." In order to do this, we need better schools, teachers, curriculum, as well as parental responsibility.
The fact is, that uneducated Africans will not be the ones obtaining the jobs that you talk about. If their is a large African community, over a generation or so, maybe their children will get to college, because their community will ensure that some of them notice some social mobility. But if they are regular ol' poor Africans, like a considerable number of African Americans, there they will attend the same schools that regular ol' African American children attend, and they will lack the same resources that African American children lack...Work ethnic is only part of it...don't let thomas sowell fool you.
Have you read this article? Culture...thats what happens when u give an economist a few history books...distortions!
Crippled by Their Culture
Race doesn't hold back America's "black rednecks." Nor does racism.
BY THOMAS SOWELL
Tuesday, April 26, 2005 12:01 a.m. EDT
For most of the history of this country, differences between the black and the white population--whether in income, IQ, crime rates, or whatever--have been attributed to either race or racism. For much of the first half of the 20th century, these differences were attributed to race--that is, to an assumption that blacks just did not have it in their genes to do as well as white people. The tide began to turn in the second half of the 20th century, when the assumption developed that black-white differences were due to racism on the part of whites.
Three decades of my own research lead me to believe that neither of those explanations will stand up under scrutiny of the facts. As one small example, a study published last year indicated that most of the black alumni of Harvard were from either the West Indies or Africa, or were the children of West Indian or African immigrants. These people are the same race as American blacks, who greatly outnumber either or both.
If this disparity is not due to race, it is equally hard to explain by racism. To a racist, one black is pretty much the same as another. But, even if a racist somehow let his racism stop at the water's edge, how could he tell which student was the son or daughter of someone born in the West Indies or in Africa, especially since their American-born offspring probably do not even have a foreign accent?
What then could explain such large disparities in demographic "representation" among these three groups of blacks? Perhaps they have different patterns of behavior and different cultures and values behind their behavior.
There have always been large disparities, even within the native black population of the U.S. Those blacks whose ancestors were "free persons of color" in 1850 have fared far better in income, occupation, and family stability than those blacks whose ancestors were freed in the next decade by Abraham Lincoln.
What is not nearly as widely known is that there were also very large disparities within the white population of the pre-Civil War South and the white population of the Northern states. Although Southern whites were only about one-third of the white population of the U.S., an absolute majority of all the illiterate whites in the country were in the South.
The North had four times as many schools as the South, attended by more than four times as many students. Children in Massachusetts spent more than twice as many years in school as children in Virginia. Such disparities obviously produce other disparities. Northern newspapers had more than four times the circulation of Southern newspapers. Only 8% of the patents issued in 1851 went to Southerners. Even though agriculture was the principal economic activity of the antebellum South at the time, the vast majority of the patents for agricultural inventions went to Northerners. Even the cotton gin was invented by a Northerner.
Disparities between Southern whites and Northern whites extended across the board from rates of violence to rates of illegitimacy. American writers from both the antebellum South and the North commented on the great differences between the white people in the two regions. So did famed French visitor Alexis de Tocqueville.
None of these disparities can be attributed to either race or racism. Many contemporary observers attributed these differences to the existence of slavery in the South, as many in later times would likewise attribute both the difference between Northern and Southern whites, and between blacks and whites nationwide, to slavery. But slavery doesn't stand up under scrutiny of historical facts any better than race or racism as explanations of North-South differences or black-white differences. The people who settled in the South came from different regions of Britain than the people who settled in the North--and they differed as radically on the other side of the Atlantic as they did here--that is, before they had ever seen a black slave
Slavery also cannot explain the difference between American blacks and West Indian blacks living in the United States because the ancestors of both were enslaved. When race, racism, and slavery all fail the empirical test, what is left?
Culture is left.
The culture of the people who were called "rednecks" and "crackers" before they ever got on the boats to cross the Atlantic was a culture that produced far lower levels of intellectual and economic achievement, as well as far higher levels of violence and sexual promiscuity. That culture had its own way of talking, not only in the pronunciation of particular words but also in a loud, dramatic style of oratory with vivid imagery, repetitive phrases and repetitive cadences.
Although that style originated on the other side of the Atlantic in centuries past, it became for generations the style of both religious oratory and political oratory among Southern whites and among Southern blacks--not only in the South but in the Northern ghettos in which Southern blacks settled. It was a style used by Southern white politicians in the era of Jim Crow and later by black civil rights leaders fighting Jim Crow. Martin Luther King's famous speech at the Lincoln Memorial in 1963 was a classic example of that style.
While a third of the white population of the U.S. lived within the redneck culture, more than 90% of the black population did. Although that culture eroded away over the generations, it did so at different rates in different places and among different people. It eroded away much faster in Britain than in the U.S. and somewhat faster among Southern whites than among Southern blacks, who had fewer opportunities for education or for the rewards that came with escape from that counterproductive culture.
Nevertheless the process took a long time. As late as the First World War, white soldiers from Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky and Mississippi scored lower on mental tests than black soldiers from Ohio, Illinois, New York and Pennsylvania. Again, neither race nor racism can explain that--and neither can slavery.
The redneck culture proved to be a major handicap for both whites and blacks who absorbed it. Today, the last remnants of that culture can still be found in the worst of the black ghettos, whether in the North or the South, for the ghettos of the North were settled by blacks from the South. The counterproductive and self-destructive culture of black rednecks in today's ghettos is regarded by many as the only "authentic" black culture--and, for that reason, something not to be tampered with. Their talk, their attitudes, and their behavior are regarded as sacrosanct.
The people who take this view may think of themselves as friends of blacks. But they are the kinds of friends who can do more harm than enemies.
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 312
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 12:43 am: |
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"Work ethnic is only part of it..."
Sure Yukio this is true. However of all the parts you can think of, in the place and time, work ethic is the most important. If you can tell me something more important than work ethic, I'd like to hear it. Seriously.
I'm not quite sure how Sowell's name came up... however I did read the article and we have the book (Black Rednecks And White Liberals: And Other Cultural And Ethnic Issues
http://authors.aalbc.com/thomas.htm), though I've not gotten to it yet. I'm a firm believer in getting information from multiple sources including Sowell's.
Bottom line, I originally posted the link to the article 'cause I thought the compensation is just so amazing and I wanted to make sure more people were aware of this.
Chris rasied the issue of Black people not having a chance of getting these job. I'm not sure how he arrived at that conclusion. The latest issue of Black Enterpise shows a few of these millionaire Brothers.
While I appreciate that the Africans I see may be the best and the brightest their countries have to offer;, they are doing quite well compared to our best American of African descent (particularly African-American men).
It goes without saying that undereducated people will not be able to compete for these jobs or any decent job for that matter.
Sure "we need better schools, teachers, curriculum, as well as parental responsibility.; but how do you propse we get this? Obviously it does not come out of thin air. Should we wait around for "The Man" to give it to us? I thing we've already seen where that has gotten us.
Perhaps this work ethic thing would be a good start work and raising our children, work and becoming educated learning a trade, work at leaning history, work at maintaing relationships, work at working together.
This is not rocket science, but it does require effort; an effort many of us are unwilling to undertake.
If you have a better idea I'd like to hear it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 01:30 pm: |
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Troy:
Please don't simplify my points. Since I don't believe in using formulas for life, I would never say what is the "most important."
Work ethic no doubt about it is a necessary ingredient...a staple, if you will, but not to mention other variables is problematic. The latter was my point. Thus, there is no disagreement on work ethic, so lets lay that to rest.
Black folk have always worked hard...to use anecdotes as a comprehensive understanding of life is quite limited. There are also lazy white folk, but as a group they are ahead...at the same time,laziness is still is not sufficient to address poor whites, either.
Try outsourcing...both service sector and skilled jobs. In a global economy, US professionals are overpriced as compared with the cheaper African and Indian professionals. Thus, it is not purely an issue of race.
Again, work ethic is an issue but is minor.
"Should we wait around for "The Man" to give it to us? I thing we've already seen where that has gotten us."
I don't know what you're talking about. There has been no point in African American history where we have waited for whites to give us something.
"While I appreciate that the Africans I see may be the best and the brightest their countries have to offer;, they are doing quite well compared to our best American of African descent (particularly African-American men)."
I have not read any good comparisons.
I mentioned Thomas Sowell, because I know you are a fan. Sowell is an economist, with little understanding of social history and politics. Yet, much of his commentary pertains to the latter. Regardless of the ideology of an economist, their achilles heel, if you will, is that they are not trained to consider in a very basic way....people. It is really a question of epistemology.
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Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 172
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 05:20 pm: |
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Troy --
Work ethic is absolutely paramount to reaching a level playing field, and so is the ability to adapt to the environment, which is fluid and constantly changing.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 953
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 05:35 pm: |
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A work ethic is really fantastic...but it's more for "Worker Bees".
The ruling bees always possess a passion and hunger that goes beyond work ethic. They PLOT and study their environment scientifically. And that's why you often see them doing less work and more living and influencing.
Don't me hate me, fellas.
And one can easily adapt to the environment without becoming its wallpaper and rugs.
That, to me, has always been the measure of integrity, real human worth and real beauty.
The environment is like both a garden and a parade going by.
Stand your ground and just enjoy the parts that are serene--tuck away from the bad weather. 
My honest belief is that SO MANY people don't have a "core identity" that grounds them in a substantial base. Because of that missing core----they become logs for the fire. You can bend them to your will and lead them however you want to.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 954
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 05:53 pm: |
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On "environment", let me put it this way:
The white man has been in this environment (America) and been through all its changes for the last 650 years....and he's STILL......the white man. He's still who he came her as; still himself.
And when you look at these new middle class children that blacks have--you can see that he's just getting whiter and whiter.
You speak his language. He doesn't speak yours.
You were his clothes. He doesn't wear yours.
You worship his mother. He and you both defile and kill your mother.
Being an INTELLECTUALNels, don't mean shit.
Deed is deed.
A smart nigger on wall street with a white wife and kids that look like the white man is still......a nigger.
That's what I was saying....
...don't let the environment DICTATE your destruction and lack of integrity.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 955
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 05:55 pm: |
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Oh...
and I live on a $1.5 million ranch, I have NO MONEY and I've never worked a 9 to 5 job....
...IN MY LIFE.
And I'm not that cute.
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 315
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 09:57 pm: |
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Yukio, we don't agree on work ethic you believe it is minor I believe it is major.
Of course we, Black people, have a history of working hard. However if you ask me the last 30 years or so is a period in African American history when we have been waiting around for The Man to give us something.
I'm not sure how or why you believe Sowell has no knowledge of history...
Sowell is not the only person that impacts on my opinions. I read also Boof, and Hayden (seriously). I will admit however that a lot of what Sowell writes meshes well with my personal experiences, in other words it rings true to me.
See I'm over 40, grew up on the projects, witnesses, particpated in, the birth of hip-hop graduated from a top business school. I've lived in various cities and have been to almost all of the states in the union. I've worked for a decade in both the defense and financial services industries. So I assume my experiences are quite different than yours -- not better, simply different. Of course these differences will impact on our interpretations of the world.
Again, based upon my observations of our people in a wide variety of circumstances over almost half a century. Work ethic, or a lack of it, is our most debilitating characteristic.
It is like Robin Harris said, Brothers be sitting around smoking a joint waiting for a job to come knocking at the door.
Of course there are obstacles to thrawth even a hard working Brother's progress or to create a major disadvantage when compared to the other man.
Of course there are subtle biases that hinder progress in corp america. Many of us has no inherited wealth. Many of live in urban centers with poor schools, crime. Many of us are feeling the squeeze of caring for older parents and younger children at the same time, and on and on...
Besides work ethic, we also lack an real ability to support each other. Again, without a work ethic you can't even support your self let alone someone else. For Christsake we can't even support the mother of our own children.
Somehow we've adopted this notion that it is every man for themselvf and that I can only enrich myself at someone else's expense.
Nels agreed on adapting to the environment. That is especially important now.
Kola I believe after we get to a certain point, a period of time of hard work, we can have the luxury of manipulating the environment. However most of us are just trying to survive and many of us are barely doing that.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 958
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
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Troy,
As I told you a few years ago about Sowell.
When he made the claim about Black women in 1800's "New England" having babies by White men in one of his books, and claimed that if it was rape, they were free citizens and could have reported it--so it wasn't rape....
....he lost me forever.
You have no idea what those words sound like to a black female.
And I've noticed that about Black American men. Not only are black women and girls not protected and abused by ALL males in this society......but there's the constant LIE that we want the abuse.
We really have no choice.
Millions of black women have to suck dick and they "generally" (unless they're Diana Ross) have NO CHOICE what color that dick is.
OK
Unlike other races of women who have their pick. And I hate the fucker for that.
The lowest thing in this country is the Black man's mother
---because black men put her there.
He also made disgusting comments about Africa and African history (basically saying that blacks have always been chattel and nothing more) things that only a trained nigger with degree would say.
I could care less about his economics.
It's his mercilous selling out of Black people that makes me detest him.
Him, Clarence Thomas, Ward Connerly...these are the same asswipes.
Stanley Crouch is one, too, but at least he's got some CHAMP in him. He hates black women and black children, but he will try to sell out as a "black man" with balls---the others just plain rotten sell out trash.
I swear to GOD, most of the Black Men in positions of power hate black women and make excuses for why it's our fault.
We can do no right. Because we're not light enough, white enough.
It never fails.
I hate Thomas Sowell!
I wish I had remembered to talk about his ass in my book. God damn ribbit-croak'n frog motherfucker.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
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Troy,
Hmmm....To say that "work ethic" is not the most important variable is not to say that it is not major. I think it is major, but it is about self-worth, self-pride...the fact of the matter is, all groups have lazy people, no group has a monopoly on laziness as you seem to suggest.
My education matches yours...I grew up in tenements, motherless and graduated to the projects...and, like you, I am a poster child of the Horatio Alger myth, and I have had different jobs in different states, AND? I don't limit myself to experiences...this is the substance of our differences and method of analysis!
Speaking of your analysis:
Your analysis is anecdotal! Where is the substance...What does Robin Harris know about political economy? Yes, when in doubt, go to the common man's perspective...
To say that black folk have been waiting for handouts for the last thirty years (1975)...that was the moment and throughout much of the last 30 years that blacks have voted all of these black politicians into office. This is also the same moment when the black middle class has grown. And I can go on...what you say is illogical...
But what does this mean at the local level, no tax base, at the structural level...capital mobility, and outsourcing? In the last 30 years, how many wars has the US been in? How many of the soliders were black? How many have gone to the military because there wasn't anything jobs in their community? Have you been to Detroit? Appalachia? Pittsburgh?
If everyone worked their hardest, these other issues would remain and black folk would still be poor.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3126
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:24 am: |
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Oh come on, Kola, you are resorting to your usual maudlin histrionics. You just can't sit in the ivory tower of your million-dollar ranch in the year 2005, isolated from what's going on in "the club" and in the workplace or in a particular relationship, and speak for all African-American women, no matter what their color is. The situation is not as big a crises as you like to portray. There are a million-different scenarios within the black male/female dynamic and the black woman ain't always the loser in the match up. Or have I yet to figure out what your solution is to the disaster that you have ranted into existence. Using yourself as an example, why would a black man be inclined to love and adore a castigating female like you. Yet, some do. And it should be noted that all women have to deal with America's male-dominated society and that the battle of the sexes is as old as the human condition, even existing in the animal kingdom. In America, women didn't even win the vote until the 1920s. Yes, we have to air our grievances but the only allies we can turn to are our brothers in the black community, many of whom are supportive. And stop assuming that black males treat their mates like queens just because they are white or light-skinned. Color does not neutralize domestic conflict just as it doesn't dictate love. And also stop promoting the idea that the millions of black women are miserable because of their color, because too many of them are leading satsifactory lives, doin their thing, pursuing their careers, not victimized by the fall-out from the media imagery, happy to be independent - with a man in their life. Thomas Sowell is a polemicist. He frequently takes an unpopular position when assessing his race, and that's because he doesn't care if the truth hurts. He's not always palatable, but he is not always hard to digest, either. You are inured in the history of the black woman in America but the past can't be changed. And the future of African American woman just depends on what black woman you are talking to, many of whom don't share your radicalism no matter what color their skin is, - no matter how much this offends you. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 959
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
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Actually, Cynique. I haven't said that ALL BLACK WOMEN are anything.
Look at me. I'm certainly not suffering the ills that I complain of. But my ear is to the ground and my eyes don't lie to me---and it's my job to take up for the majority of women.
But it is sad that elderly women like yourself comes along and let the men off the hook, repeatedly. And after you've posted so many vindictive remarks against struggling black women--as you have and continuously do.
Thomas Sowell is a man so spineless he can suck his own dick.
--Kola Boof
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 960
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:36 am: |
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That's for my 19th century sisters in New England--who could no more report being "raped" by a white man in the 1800's than they can today.
And shame on that cabbage brained bastard for using his ignorance to re-molest those poor black women and girls.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3127
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:47 am: |
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Come on, Yukio, all people who have a good work ethic may not succeed, but isn't it logical to deduce that successful people got where they are by having a good work ethic? (And just for the record, I wouldn't call a person who inherited their wealth "successful.") You just can't dismiss having a good work ethic as incidental because if a person has all the qualifications it takes to be successful but is lazy, then he's a failure. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3128
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:56 am: |
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You don't have your ear to the ground where I live, Kola. The majority of black woman don't share your opinion whether you accept this or not. This "elderly" woman has spent and does spend considerable time interacting with black women of all ages from all walks of life and they aren't embracing your sentiments. You are a spokesperson for the cult of your personality. And it's a figment of your imagination that I have put black women down. For your own purposes, you continually try to accuse me of this. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 961
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 01:07 am: |
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Talk about "figments of imagination". Your own seems to be quite steady in your typical summarizing of me.
I could give a shit, though.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 01:14 am: |
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Isn't it logical to deduce that successful people got where they are by having a good work ethic?
Yes, it is logical. I have never disagreed with this logic, Cynique. I wonder why you ask such a question. I, for example, believe that I have a pretty solid work ethic...so lets lay this to rest. Please don't embarass me, and simplify my points.
Was my post too long? Lets do it quicker...Firstly, I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about African Americans. Secondly, I am talking about African Americans and how they fit in the US and how the US fits in the global economy. Is this not clear? Finally, I argued that these various factors--racism, globalization, deindustrialization--are responsible for poverty...not only among blacks but whites and others. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3131
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 09:50 am: |
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Our approaches to subjects always run parallel but rarely contradictory, Yukio. You regard focus on the individual as anecdotal, and I regard focus on institutions as theorhetic. You postulate and I speculate. But it's all good. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3132
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
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Kola, I never say anything about you that cannot be deduced from what you say about yourself. You spill your guts and I just draw conclusions from that. Yet, you persist in saying that I hate you and am jealous of you and that I am a colorist and an out-of-touch ol bitty, sitting on my front porch watching my grandchildren play, none of which is true. I say about you that you are a highly-opinionated person with a short fuse who passionately crusades for dark-skinned women at the expense of disparaging almost everybody else. I have never said that you are not intelligent, not talented, and not amusing. BTW, I remind you that I worked at the post office for 30 years in a variety of positions, rubbing shoulders with black folks from all walks of life. I still maintain my post office ties with my former female co-workers many of whom are much younger than me and this, along with the fact that I have children and grandchildren in all age brackets who have all types of friends, is what keeps me current on a broad spectrum of subjects. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 11:35 am: |
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Hmmm...I regard the individual as essential...it is essential, BUT!
In a basic way....a very basic way. I try to see the individual and its relationship to the world.
To view "work ethic" as the beginning and end is only looking at what the individual does. But what does the world do, and what is the relationship between the two.
This is all that I am saying.
I believe that I work extremely hard, extremely. I believe that I do ok. But I also see outsourcing...when I call Dell, I neither speak to an American nor a person in the US. Is this not an anecdote? I have always seen colleagues family members laid off in Pennsylvania...this is also anecdotal...they had jobs...that have left the country!
Well, how is this explained. Easy! British Colonialism produced a small educated class of Indians...now that India is "free," it neither has the resources or the economy to employ its professional and educated classes. In the past, they traveled here....Thus, doctors, nurses, etc....are found in US hospitals around the country....In the information age, these types of professionals do not need to travel...they can be employed and remain in India.
Well, what does this mean?
One, the multinationals have a cheap source of labor...Indian, Chinese, African, etc....
Two, so cheap that the Indian and African Diasporans are even too expensive in comparison to their brethren back home.
Since, three, the African or the Indian who comes to the US, London, or Paris can demand a higher salary than their brothers and sisters in India and Africa.
Fourth, this obviously, means that US citizens are also too expensive, right!
For the uneducated bunch...they have service sector jobs...many happen to be unorganized.
I haven't even talked about racism in the US, though I have indicated how people of color are globally exploited! I guess Africans are also lazy...their work ethic is also responsible for poverty in Africa, right?
I'm beginning to regard this work ethic myth as selfish and egotistical.
I'll leave this alone.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3133
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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Well, Yukio, the work ethic jumps into the picture because it is an argument raised when the subject of laziness comes up. Nobody is saying that a good work ethic is the end-all be-all, but when it is juxtaposed against the slacker mentality, then a good work ethic gains stature. I still say we are not disagreeing. And you introduced the fallacy of anecdotal arguments into the discussion. I just latched onto it because I do tend to rely on individual experiences when trying to make a point. Stop being so sensitive. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 14, 2005 - 02:04 pm: |
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hmmm...sensitive? No. Tired of this work ethic business? Yes?
At any rate, I never said that we disagreed, btw. Also, I never claimed that work ethic had no place. Finally, one of my points, though not directly articulated, in fact, was that these discussions are generally framed as a question of work ethic and "the slaker mentality," as if it is only a question of individual effort. Thus, the nature of the discussion is implicitly flawed.
At any rate, I also think of the individual experience...how else could I be a creative writer? Though, the creative side may be questionable....lmao!
Adios! |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 987
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 15, 2005 - 06:50 pm: |
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I would ask all human beings...to stop what they're doing and PLEASE care about this man's plight:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2152/8616.html?1134690058
This deserves our attention.
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 317
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 05:05 pm: |
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Yukio, why are you so quick to dismiss anecdotal observations? Because an observation is anecdotal does not make it wrong -- even when extended over a larger unobserved sample. Besides my observations are influenced by news, books, conversations with you guys, and of course personal experience. I do not live in a vacuum; but at the same time I'm not performing studies to support something I consider common sense...
Sure we have some similarities, I still find it interesting, despite those similarities, that we view the same things so differently.
I never suggested other groups do not have lazy people in them. There are Chinese people not good at math, Black people who can't dance and white men who care about others... Black folks don't have a monopoly on any good or bad characteristics. This too should be self evident -- attribute it to wanting writing skills rather than an inherent belief on my part.
You mention things like outsourcing and the historical conditions that brought it on, the military. To that I say a big "So what?". There have and will always be external factors (beyond one's control) that will help or hinder one's progress -- whether the "one" is an individual, a community, a ethnic group, a nation, religious group, etc; this too is axiomatic. Change is constant.
The trick is how do we handle the change. Do we sit back and complain about the man sending all of the telephone support and programmers jobs to India, or do we try to get our hustle on in a different way?
The "work ethic" I'm referring to is not simply getting up and going to a 9 to 5, day in day out, then coming home and watching TV until the next day. While even this is better than what many of us are doing. That is not sufficient to deal with changes in the global economy, racism, etc. We have to continue to learn about our environment and acquire skills that allow us to be successful in it despite the changes going on around us. The is the work ethic (and many the terminology is wrong) to which I refer. The same one that allowed us to survive our period of enslavement on these shores.
"If everyone worked their hardest, these other issues would remain and black folk would still be poor." See I do not believe this. Rather I do believe the issues would remain. However, I just don't believe we have to be hurt so badly. Next, everyone will not work their hardest (even if forced). That is impossible and not a goal worth persuing. However I do believe if enough of us can worked a little harder, things would be better for more of us than they are now -- less of us would be poor, more of us would be better educated and skilled, more of use would support our children, fewer of us would do things to land us in the criminal justice system, etc..
So Kola, does this mean you do not particularly care for Thomas Sowell? I simply do not believe that Thomas Sowell EVER said: "blacks have always been chattel and nothing more". Now I have not read everything the man has written or said, but that statement you quote him as saying simply does not make any sense. It is not something an educated man would say. If you can point me to the source I'd appreciate it.
Cynique, I could have replaced my last post with "Ditto what Cynique wrote". And I bet I have more in common with Yukio's background than yours (smile).
Peace to all of y'all!
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 997
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 17, 2005 - 05:28 pm: |
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I didn't say he made that exact statement.
But his overall remarks in the book I'm speaking of was to that effect, as he was discussing the Black Power notion that blacks once ruled great and vast kingdoms in Africa. He was basically saying that the Arab Muslims were the builders and rulers, that Mesopotamians and Europeans were the architects and that blacks have never truly competed on the world stage as rulers.
He also pointed out how blacks (and black women in particular) have always been chattel to other nations and rulers.
I summed it up.
And I'm not (nor would I) lie on the man.
No. I don't like him.
He's the kind of cold, clinical intellectual who I believe would have been a slave trader back in the old days.
We his type in Africa. Intellectualizing about why they have to sell their own people right now.
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Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 318
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 18, 2005 - 12:24 pm: |
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Well Kola you have to admit; you did make it sound as if Sowell made those exact statements. We must be very careful how we portray and what we say about each other. As it causes unnecessary divisiveness. If we are unnecessarily hyper-critical or exaggerate points on which we disagree and use those points to preemptively dismiss someone of potential value; we weaken ourselves. Don't you agree? Sowell should be our team, not the tool of the other man. Similarly, there are Black people that would reject you as easily as you reject Sowell.
As far as Sowell's comments as Blacks as Chattel. I think you'll read the Sowell comments tend to focus on the fact that all people at one point in history or another have been enslaved. Again, you'd have to pint out where Sowell says, in effect, alludes to or otherwise implies that Black women have always been Chattel. It is important to be clear, because someone well read what you wrote and believe you...
Yukio, I read a comment by Ronald Kuykendall; he was asked about Bill Cosby’s comments about underachieving African-Americans. ? Kuykendall responded by saying; "I was not offended by his comments; however his comments lacked a theoretic frame of reference and therefore appeared blameworthy, insensitive, and unsympathetic.". This made think of you in regard to your reaction to my anecdotal commentary.
From Kuykendall perspective he was not offended by the comments, as he said. However I believe even with a theoretic frame of reference, the same Blacks that supported him would have still supported him and those that did not have changed their opinions -- including those in academia like Dyson and others.
I find it fascinating that a Black person's wealth, income, education, sex, geographic region, religion. and upbringing seem to have little to do with determining our impressions on the importance of work ethic or impressions of Thomas Sowell.
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