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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2963
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 12:42 am: | 
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An interesting article by one of my home girls. Some of her references are kinda "dated" but what she has to say is still provocative.
Cynique
Thuggin' white kids shine light on contradictions
November 6, 2005
BY MARY MITCHELL CHICAGO SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST
Apparently, only black people can have a "straight thuggin' " party. Both the Associated Press and the Chicago Tribune reported that when a group of about 20 white students at the University of Chicago held a straight thuggin' or "ghetto"-themed party last month, black students were appalled. The white students wore their baseball caps sideways, hung heavy gold chains around their necks, pulled on some droopy pants so their underwear could show, and listened to music by the likes of Nelly and 50 Cent.
The university's president, Don Randel, is now concerned that the party will "undermine" the university's attempts to build stronger ties to the surrounding poorer communities and further isolate black students on campus.
Randel sent a letter last week advising students that the "straight thuggin' " gathering of whites was "offensive" and "parodied racial stereotypes based on assumptions about economically disadvantaged members of society."
In other words, white students didn't have any business trying to look like the rappers on BET.
The hapless group of white students are now perceived as having done something "racist." African-Americans, on the other hand, are being portrayed as victims. But they aren't victims. They're probably embarrassed.
Because blacks have allowed a handful of talented rappers to basically define the black experience, more people are getting offended by these images. Yet they are hard to stop.
Sunglasses, afro, gold chain
Talk about a money-maker -- last year, Sprite launched "Miles Thirst," a hip-hop doll that pronounces "motto" as "mah mah-toe," as its pitchman.
I questioned a spokesman about this decision, and was told that the company's own research showed that white youth were fascinated with the way black teens dress. "Thirst," with his wrap-around sunglasses, heavy gold chain, afro, gym shoes and baggy jeans, is a stereotype of black youth.
But hip-hop represents only one segment of the black community. "Straight thuggin,' " or "Gangsta Rap," as it's been called, has nothing whatsoever to do with the lifestyles of most of the black students who end up at the University of Chicago.
And Randel, who criticized the white students for perpetuating racial "stereotypes based on assumptions about economically disadvantaged members of society," means well, but doesn't get it. There's nothing economically disadvantaged about Nelly, Jay-Z and 50 Cent.
Still, I want to help white people avoid these unpleasant moments. Here's a brief excerpt from my handbook: What Blacks Can Do; What Whites Can't, which should be on shelves soon.
Blacks can call the ghetto "fabulous"; whites can't even call it the ghetto.
Blacks can wear their pants so low we can see their underwear; whites can't. (Well, Eminem can.)
Blacks can wear gold chains, flash gold teeth and carry gold canes; whites can't.
Blacks can wear dreadlocks, braids, twists and afros; whites can't.
Blacks can shave their heads; whites can't shave their heads, because only white supremacists shave their heads.
Blacks can call each other the N-word, and, of course, whites can't call blacks the N-word. For example, recently state Sen. and the Rev. James Meeks said police officers often stop drivers in cars they deem to be "N-----mobiles." A white state senator would have been tossed out of office for the same remark.
Blacks can shoot up their neighborhoods, rob the elderly, rape women, abuse children and kill each other, and whites can't say anything about that lest they be accused of stereotyping the black community.
Black gangs can run amok; whites can't even label black thugs a gang.
Blacks can use racial slurs to exclude other blacks from the political arena; whites can't.
The latest example of this phenomenon is Michael Steele, a Republican and lieutenant governor of Maryland. Steele is trying to become the first black senator elected from that state.
But Steele has been subjected to the worst racial slurs imaginable. At one debate, a group of black people pelted the stage with Oreos. Last week, a black liberal businessman with a blog depicted Steele as a black-faced minstrel and "Sambo."
Of course, you know What Blacks Can Do; What Whites Can't doesn't exist. But maybe it should. Because there are glaring contradictions in the way black people have approached racial issues. We shouldn't expect whites to treat us any better than we are willing to treat ourselves.
So if black students at the University of Chicago are really offended by the idea that their white classmates are mimicking black rappers, they should make sure they aren't going to any straight thuggin' parties of their own.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 951
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 07:57 am: |
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Interesting article...I completely disagree. It is a question of cultural practice, on the one hand, and cultural exoticism, on the other. This, in my opinion, is the foolishness of it. It is ridiculous to talk about what people can do; it presumes from the beginning that we are all the same....more foolishness.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 757
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 09:02 am: |
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So if black students at the University of Chicago are really offended by the idea that their white classmates are mimicking black rappers, they should make sure they aren't going to any straight thuggin' parties of their own.
Please. What makes this writer assume that they are? Chances are, at University of Chicago the last thing most of those Black kids have time to do is go to "straight thuggin" parties. The mistake this writer makes is--
Oh, forget it. The mistakes are too numerous and I gotta get my kids to school.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2964
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 09:37 am: |
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I'm sure Mary will get a lot of flack from the article. What she writes is usually controversial but her redeeming feature is that her articles make both blacks and whites angry. Incidentally, she is in her early 50s and is one of 10 children who grew up in and escaped from the "ghetto" of Chicago's inner city. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 952
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 10:32 am: |
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Cyn: Her past history is inadequate to corroborate her analysis. This is like folk who assume that they know black history because they're black...this is solipsism at its worst.
The fact is, the ghetto of the past is NOT the same ghetto of the present. The "ghetto" of the 1920s was not the "ghetto" of the 1940s and 50s. The "ghetto" of the 60s and 70s is NOT the "ghetto" of the early twentieth century.
If anything, her past may explain her generational contempt and misunderstanding. But her past doesn't address her ahistoricism and faulty analysis. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2965
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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I'm not defending her, Yukio. And I did say she was "dated." I just offered a little background on her. If the article proves anything, it's what I've always reminded; that around Chicagoland, yesterday's ghettoites, are today's bourgeoise. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 953
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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gotcha! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 01:57 pm: |
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Mary Mitchell--somebody ought to take that bootlicker out in the woods and tar and feather her. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 851
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 02:11 pm: |
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Chris!!! 
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh by the way, CHris.
DOK needs a color photo of you. They're making these huge posters of each author's books to go in bookstores.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 02:49 pm: |
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Kola:
Thanx!
I have contacted them about it and I am working on it. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 812
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 05:27 pm: |
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Very, very good essay Cynnique. I don't think she's dated at all; in fact, the issues she raises are right on time.
This was not the main point she made, but I thought it was significant:
***...they aren't victims. They're probably embarrassed. Because blacks have allowed a handful of talented rappers to basically define the black experience, more people are getting offended by these images.***
As many have said countless times before, when you look at the origin of hiphop (hiphop being different from gangsta rap) it's easier to see what it is and why *some* feel the way they do about it. As Pat Collins wrote in her latest book, after urban white/black flight and the impact of the Reagan Admin., black men and women were left to rot in what became what we now know as the ghetto.... Because of boredom, devastation, and having nothing else to do, the younger folks developed hiphop (rap) to occupy their time & cope. As many ackowledge, the lyrics they came up with was/is, for the most part, a description of urban black life. That's all they knew, so they sung about it.. sort of like they did during slavery: they made songs (hems {sp}) about their experiences as a way of coping.... So, when people are "embarrassed" by hiphop they may actually be embarrassed by urban black culture; specifically the glamorization of it. (It's ok. as long as whitey doesn't see it). Some of the things that AAs find "offensive" about hiphop could be nothing more than urban black culture; thus, their being "offended" offends a lot of people....
My personal take: it could be important to think about what you're saying before you jump on the "I hate hiphop" bandwagon. If you don't like what you see (as I don't *some* of it) focusing on changing the culture, as well as the music/images, is probably the best solution. You might want to do some soul searching, however, if your problem is that you feel inconvenienced just because the images and lyrics "embarrasses"/"offends" you.
Tonya |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 954
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 05:41 pm: |
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hmmmm....Yes, they are embarrased by certain thematics in urban black culture, BUT they are also embarrassed by some of the basic themes that are apparent in black culture in the general...sex, masculinity, and misogyny. This is apparent in r&b and the blues; thus, this criticizes is an old discussion in a new guise. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 813
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 05:52 pm: |
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Yes, Yukio, I know that and I feel the same.... That's why I wrote this:
"If you don't like what you see (as I don't *some* of it)..."
The "sone of it" is exactly as you described: sex, masculinity, and misogyny....
SO STOP FLIP-FLOPPING ON ME BOY! Or did you just want to make sure that I point that out?
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 814
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 06:04 pm: |
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But Yukio... since you brought it up, do you think that covering it up ( sex, masculinity, and misogyny) is the answer?
Maybe hiphop is doing us (black females) a favor, in a way. Those issues probably wouldn't be getting the attention they're now getting, which is mostly due to hiphop.
Tonya |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 957
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 06:35 pm: |
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Flip floping, eh?
I think people should go for what they know! There should be people trying to make better music, but not censor what is out there...as you say change it, but not to the degree where folk are silenced. There should be alternatives!
Another part of the story is, I don't agree with Mitchell's analysis. I'm sure some folk are angry that hip hop has led foolish whites and others to equate african american culture with hip hop. BUt I also think that black folk are pissed because, as I stated initially, that white folks do it as a form of exoticism, as a way to be free like the black animals who grab their dicks, use credit cards and swipe big jungle bunny nigga bitches asses, etc...it is how whites have always use our culture as a way to get closer to their "human/animal" origins. Or as some say, "going native"! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2966
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 06:54 pm: |
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Well, Tonya, I called Mary dated in her references because she apparently doesn't know that when it comes to the bling-bling, gold is "out" and platinum is "in." Also nowadays young white kids do wear baggy pants hanging off their butts. And how significant is it that a 30-something like you related to what Mary wrote and a 50-something Chrishayden predictably blew her off. Yukio and Yvette also were put out with her comments, but who knows what the bougies and bohos among the the University of Chicago's student body think about the article. For those who are not familiar with its prestigious reputation, the University of Chicago is a corner stone of education in the midwest, on a par with Harvard and Yale. Its student body is about 4000 with only 190 black scholars enrolled. Also, the U. of C. has always been known for its intellectual atmosphere of free and radical thought. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 815
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 08:21 pm: |
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***I don't agree with Mitchell's analysis. I'm sure some folk are angry that hip hop has led foolish whites and others to equate african american culture with hip hop.***
Yukio, she didn't say African American Culture, she said "the black experience" and she's right; hiphop does define the black experience... more than anything else. The question is, can the black experience over the last 30 years or so be defined as a culture? I say yes.
If you agree with most or all of this, then whites are not being foolish when they equate hiphop with the current African American culture.
As far as agreeing with Mitchell, I can tell by some of her comments that she and I have two completely different outlooks on AAs in general, but still, she makes some really good points and overall her essay is extremely provocative.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 816
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 08:34 pm: |
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Also, the larger and probably most controversial question is, is it a negative culture? I think that's what it all boils down to. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 853
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 09:46 pm: |
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I agree.
I think that Hip Hop culture is the "ugly truth" about Black People and Black global culture.
It's the worst part of us showing itself through.
And it's awful reminiscent of the 1920's, 1930's Black culture.
The 40's and 50's returned AAs to a sense of "family", community responsiblity and an abhorrance for racism.
The 1960's saw the full blooming power of what had been germinating in the 40/50's
So who knows...
perhaps we are not that far away from a "wake up" generation who will "unify" the black people and perhaps tackle White Supremacy this time...instead of just the sub-text for it. Perhaps we really will see a day when our great grandchildren EMBRACE blackness and demand that it exist as itself and untampered with---which would be the ultimate way of surpassing white supremacy.
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Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 154
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:15 am: |
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"What Whites Can't Do"
They couldn't last three days in the skin of a "black" person. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 817
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 05:41 am: |
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Funny Nels! Kola, here's something else I'm sure you'll be able to relate to...
Let's say hiphop is the most powerful tool (i.e. culture) to ever define a culture.... If it's a tool that can define, and also has the ability to replace, could it not then also erase?
Accurately or not, hiphop has been defining urban black men and women since it's birth... but, sytematically, it's been visually erasing black women to the point where she no longer exists -- she's been replaced by the mulato and non-black women; so, although she still lives the lyrics, visually she is no longer a part of the song. Now, if we look at the "tool" as a culture (which it is) that means the culture is erasing itself. Right now it's erasing the women but ultimately it will erase the whole culture...
My point is, Hiphop seems to be the visual effects of EVERYTHING you've been preaching on these boards.
Sex, masculinity, and misogyny or extremely important aspects of hiphop (and the culture) but the eraser (which involves all three) is the most imminent threat.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 818
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 06:23 am: |
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Clarification:
My point is, Hiphop the industry, which illustrates the culture, seems to be the visual effects of EVERYTHING you've been preaching on these boards.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 759
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 08:05 am: |
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sytematically, it's been visually erasing black women to the point where she no longer exists
Have you seen the female love interests in the trailers for two recent hip-hop influenced movies (Fiddy/Usher)?
Not only that, but 50 Cent taking up for G-Dub over Kanye? Forget "rap culture" equaling "Black experience"--It's all about stright up Republican values now, apparently. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 760
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 08:11 am: |
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Talk about a money-maker -- last year, Sprite launched "Miles Thirst," a hip-hop doll that pronounces "motto" as "mah mah-toe," as its pitchman.
I questioned a spokesman about this decision, and was told that the company's own research showed that white youth were fascinated with the way black teens dress. "Thirst," with his wrap-around sunglasses, heavy gold chain, afro, gym shoes and baggy jeans, is a stereotype of black youth.
Actually, it's "my motto"="mah mah-tow." And note, the spokesman she talks to says this is a way to attract *Whites.* This strategy of using stereotyped Black images to sell stuff to majority culture is old as the hills--from soap powder to flapjacks. Hip-hop culture did nothing to start this trend. One difference now: For the first time many are able to get some money for their own (our) exploitation--Something that rappers back in the day viciously attacked MC Hammer for.
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 761
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 08:24 am: |
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Blacks can call the ghetto "fabulous"; whites can't even call it the ghetto.
What Blacks is she talking about here? I do not know one single person who calls the ghetto "fabulous." WHen I hear the term used ("ghetto fabulous") it is to denote a certain low-expectation, big fish in a small pond mindset.
Blacks can wear their pants so low we can see their underwear; whites can't. (Well, Eminem can.)
Where has she been? WHite kids (and Hispanic, and Asian) around here where their pants like that all the time, and have been for at least two years. Some girls, too.
Blacks can wear gold chains, flash gold teeth and carry gold canes; whites can't.
Someone already mentioned the gold chain thing--kinda passe for a while now. As far as the gold teeth, I wonder how many of these U of C Black students have gold teeth. And I have seen Whites with such dental work. Is it a social class thing? And *canes*--seriously? How many Black folks do you see walking around the hood with canes of any kind?
Blacks can wear dreadlocks, braids, twists and afros; whites can't.
Again, she's just behind the times. More White kids on my campus have locks than Black American kids. One of the teachers (White) at my kids' school has locks down her bottom. There are even specialty stores in town that charge them lots of money to start and maintain them. (One woman told me she had to begin hers with gum-like material to get the hair to bind.)
Blacks can shave their heads; whites can't shave their heads, because only white supremacists
Again, where has this writer been???? WHite men all over the Twin Cities have shaved heads--many pull it off quite attractively. WHen this trend first migrated to White guys, it seemed to be mostly gay guys (perhaps just a Twin Cities thing). But now I see all sorts of men with gleaning pale domes.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2969
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
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Rapper 50-cent was a guest on David Letterman's last night. During the interview, "fiddy" repreatedly made reference to the hard times he had gone through during his early years and how once he found his calling in life, he went on to achieve great success. When Dave asked him if there was any helpful advice he would offer to all of those youngsters who were now going through what he went through, Fiddy's gave Dave a blank look and replied: "I can't save the world." After a silent pause, the audience erupted in applause. What is the message here? That nobody can save the world. And he's right. No one can save the world because we all view it differently. As 50-cent would seem to prove, it is all about finding your calling in life. And if your calling in life is to save the worrld - lotsa luck. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 764
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 02:22 pm: |
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CYNIQUE:
"That nobody can save the world. And he's right. No one can save the world because we all view it differently. As 50-cent would seem to prove, it is all about finding your calling in life. And if your calling in life is to save the world--lotsa luck."
MOONSIGNS:
I agree, Cynique!
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 819
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 02:33 pm: |
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Apparently, he wasn't being asked to save the world -- he was being asked for advice; damn, he can't drop a few simple words of advice for the millions of yougsters who support and are influenced by him/his records? I wonder if that same mostly white audience would have "erupted in applause" had he been a influentail white superstar refusing to give POSSITIVE ADVICE to young white children. How many white adults cheered Eminem when was behaving as if he didn't give a damn about white women and children; yet they're applauding 50 Cents for doing the same? Whatever!
Tonya |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 856
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 02:43 pm: |
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I think Jesus Christ and his advice and leadership saved the lives of millions.
Ditto for Malcolm X, Gloria Steinem, Ghandi, Oprah Winfrey, Nelson Mandela.
What 50 Cents said on that show----preceded by a "blank" stare mind, you (because he's so stupid and pretentious)----was a COP OUT.
A COP OUT.
And whether one human being can save the world or not, I've always admired Jesus's example that it's at least...worth trying to.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 767
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 02:51 pm: |
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Jesus preached about the "Kingdom of God" but individuals had/have the choice to embrace or reject His message. It's always been about free will.
I think 50's comment is really proof that social class has more influence in this capitalistic system than race/color. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 857
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 03:07 pm: |
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Are you claiming that there's no advice that a person who has left one class and gone to another can give to those who remain stuck in the same situation
----not even if that advice is simply "Pray"?
You're trying to make an excuse for this selfish egotistical dude's COP OUT.
EVERY HUMAN BEING is "born".
From the day they are born, they receive advice and leadership from those tending and nurturing them.
It's not about saving the world. What bullshit!
You don't have to save the world to tell your child that when his nose is bleeding---to put his head back.
50 CENT is self-absorbed, rich, has a huge ego and is more interested in servicing his DICK than taking a moment to think up some healthy advice he could give younger people he left behind and who look up to him.
These "young people" make it possible through their DOLLARS for him to be a success, so the least he could have said was..."Keep your head up."
Nowhere in your last 2 posts, MOON, do you even broach the subject that's being talked about.
Who in the hell brought up class and race?
And now that you did. I maintain that you're totally FULLA SHIT about social class being more influential in how people are treated in this society than "race and color".
You're a total bird-brain. Just fucking looney.
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Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 265
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 03:25 pm: |
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I dont want my grankids taking advice from someone who felt he wasnt worth at least a 1.00
LiLi |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 821
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 03:37 pm: |
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Yvette,
No I haven't seen the trailers, but if you're saying that 50 Cent's support of Gearge W is an example of the hiphop industry/culture erasing itself, I agree with you wholeheartedly. What an excellent point.
And, notice how white people are cheering him on.
Tonya |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2970
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 03:49 pm: |
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What's with this claim of millions of lives being saved by one person, Kola?? Millions of Christians have also been killed and did kill millions of "infidels" starting with the Crusades right up to the present war in Iraq. Religion in general, and Christianty in particular, has been at the core of more death and destruction, cruelty, and corruption than any other force in the world. And the idea that Malcolm X saved millions of lives is debatable. He was, after all, just a figure head, a dynamic speaker who didn't believe in nonviolence and never led a movement and whose influence today is felt very little. Orpah? Saving millions of lives? Come on. All she's doing is telling middleclass white woman to stop being tight-asses and portraying herself as a victim of everything under the sun when actually, she didn't get to where she was by being a victim, she got there because she was lucky to be in the right place at the right time and had a suppport group who she rarely mentions because it takes away from her claims of an abused child who overcame her plight. Furthermore, her philanthropy is very selective and does little for those who need it most. Millions of poor blacks whose lives she ain't saving. Gloria Steinem. Forget it. The Feminist movement is currently in a state of disarray trying to recover from the damage it did because it wasn't really in synch with the psyches of millions of females. The world is in a state of random flux and those who gain recogntion as "saviors" are simply people who have been on a collision course with an evolving idea whose time had come.
As for 50 cents, maybe he figured that he doesn't have to tell kids anything because he is the living and obvious examply of someone who got his shit together. At least he has sense enough not to try and pass himself off as a role model. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:11 pm: |
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Verily I say unto ye, Hell hath no fury like a Cynique scorned! |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 859
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:13 pm: |
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Oh please, Cynique.
With all you just said...
those PEOPLE still changed other people's lives in a positive way.
NO ONE can save the world and nobody's ever been stupid enough to expect a person to do that.
But Oprah has saved MY LIFE...so has Gloria Steinem.
So has Jesus Christ and so has Malcolm X.
And 50 Cents does not have his shit together. He's a materialistic golddigging savant, who helps to corrupt the minds of those who left behind. He works for the "SYSTEM" in a new way, instead of selling drugs to his own people.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2971
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:25 pm: |
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Yeah we know, Kola, you have to believe what you say because of your ongoing mission to save the world. But spare me from your usual habit of making wild claims because wild claims have such a dramatic effect! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2972
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:38 pm: |
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So, tell me, Chrishayden, how is your ongoing quest to save the world progressing? Having trouble recruting followers? Don't get discouraged. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2973
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:46 pm: |
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Li-Li:
"I dont want my grankids taking advice from someone who felt he wasnt worth at least a 1.00"
Cynique: LMAO. We can always depend upon you to put things in their proper perspective. I love it! |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 861
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:53 pm: |
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Cynique,
NONE OF US HERE...have ever claimed to be trying to save the world.
You're just bitter and cynical, because you're an ass and we're not.
You fear people who care about other people and who want to see justice----justice that goes beyond your parquet floor and t.v. controller.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 768
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 05:06 pm: |
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KOLA:
"Are you claiming that there's no advice that a person who has left one class and gone to another can give to those who remain stuck in the same situation."
Kola goes on to write......
KOLA:
"And 50 does not have his shit together. He's a materialistic golddigging savant, who helps to corrupt the minds of those who left behind. He works for the "SYSTEM" in a new way, instead of selling drugs to his own people."
MOONSIGNS SAYS:
Kola, you talk out of both sides of your mouth--what helpful "advice" can a man such as 50 possibly give? Oh yeah. I forgot, he can tell people who are "stuck" like he used to be, to "pray"? WTF?!!!! "Pray" for what, Kola?--to be "blessed" with the "fine art" of being able to lyrically and commerically exploit black women and women in general?! How phuckin brilliant!!!! And I'm the "bird-brain"?! LMFAO!!!!
IMO, 50 is no one who I consider to be a role model--nor would I expect him to think of himself as such. That's why I understand his comment is not a "cop out". He's not an intellect. He's not someone to be respected for his "talent/gift". And he's not a real man to me, either. That's why I don't have to make excuses for him.
Kola, sounds like you need to make-up your mind about who and what 50 means to you and those he has the power to influence.
Turn him on or turn him off? Take your pick--it's your CHOICE.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 865
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 05:19 pm: |
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No, No MOON
...even SATAN can give the "right" advice.
Have you heard the saying, "Do as I say...not as I do?"
JANIS JOPLIN was a druggie, sexually promiscuous...all sorts of negative things....
but she still told teen fans at high schools...to stay in school, stay away from drugs, believe in themselves and don't turn out like her
So there's BOTH SIDES,Moon.
Don't be mad because you're so one dimensional and I'm not.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 769
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 06:23 pm: |
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Kola,
satan can never give the "right" advice. The mere suggestion is completely absurd. And that old school "saying" is complete bullshyt--used by hypocrites.
And yeah, there are "both sides"--and most likely, the mind of an impressionable youth that is knee-deep in the commercialism of American culture will choose the road traveled. They don't have the will nor desire to be righteous when wealth does not have to be obtained by righteous means.
I'm one dimensional in the sense that I refuse to take advice from idiots that I don't respect.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 824
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 07:32 pm: |
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That wasn't your argument before, sistah. At first you were like: "Go fifty!!! It's your birthday!!! Get busy now!!! ...... I'd like to give a shot out to Fifty!!!"
Now you all like: "Phuck that bastard! He don't know what the phuck he's talking about! What kind of advice could that scum bastard give!?!"
Wutchoo back peddling for???
Tonya |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 960
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 08:58 pm: |
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Tonya: My point doesn't change, whether it is AA culture or the black experience. I understand her usage of the socalled black experience as African American experience. It is not unusual for African Americans to conflate all black folk. Secondly, hip hop, to me at least, neither defines nor equates to the socalled black experience; it is the part but not the whole.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2974
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
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Of course you would call anybody an ass who doesn't pay homage to your divine plan to make yourself a goddess, Kola. Nobody can save the world, and when time brings change it won't be because of anything a melodramatic meglomaniac like you brought about. You're no different from 50-cents. You're selling the opiate of Kola's Boof's plan to get rich and famous by exploiting anybody impressionable enough to think that a middle-aged has-been like you has any talent to speak of.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 866
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 12:01 am: |
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Oh, Cynique, YOU ARE SO jealous.
MY GOD!
Are YOU getting free ink pens and notepads and coffee coasters from Random House?
.... ..... .......NO you're not.
And with all the writing talent that I DO have, wouldn't I get richer and quite a bit faster and easier if I just wrote safe little books like the other authors and entertained folks
...rather than challenged them?
I mean THINK abou that--your theory doesn't hold water.
And you've gotten to the point where your arthritis and rheumatism are causing you to SLUUUUUURRRRR these pages...like 10 feet long and shit.
You write two sentences...then you SLUR the page.
God. You need to stop dribbling and just face the fact that you're wrong.
50 Cents's comment was a COP OUT...and the blank stare before it was because he's stupid and didn't know what else to say.
One of his HO's probably told him, "Stop thinking so much--you can't save the whole world. Just give that money to me 'n forget everybody else."
You don't believe me? Ask that daughter of yours.
Tah, tah ENDORA. For now.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2975
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 01:16 am: |
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Yeah, yeah, Kola, fall back on the same ol desperate accusation of jealousy, and bringing family members in to it, something you don't want to do unless you want me to start talking about those 2 chimps you gave birth to and who you make money on the week-end from by renting them out for children's birthday parties. And believe me, I have no desire to be anything that you think you are, or that you think you are going to be. If I was inclined to be jealous it would be of my fine, young, successful daughters. (OK, goof ball, now get the pictures ready to run) As for 50-cent, he is doing his thing just like Donald Trump and Bill Gates and all the other millionaires who got where they are by being ruthless. I don't defend or condemn him. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 867
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 01:26 am: |
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LMAO!!!!!!
I think I won.
I have nothing further.
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Anunaki3600
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Anunaki3600
Post Number: 116
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 04:05 am: |
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50 cent's best advice would be "Get Rich or die trying".
Another thing, I thought culture had to do more with
language+food+traditions
ebonics+big mac+bling bling = 50 cent culture LMAO or is it AA culture???? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 829
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 06:10 am: |
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We don't have our own language, a whole lot of food, and we're ashamed of our traditions; we only have our experiences.
Funny how you think that's funny.
Tonya |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 09:24 am: |
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Well, Kola, guess you did win the decision if points are given for going off on tangents, responding to issues that I didn't raise, and resorting to the same ol stale rountine about physical infirmities that I don't have. yawnnnnnn. And, it figures that you would proclaim yourself the winner because you proclaim yourself to be all the other things that you're not, you Oprah wanna-ba. And speaking of Oprah, - now she's somebody to be jealous of. I could really "live the life" if I had her money! You? You're small potatoes. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 961
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 01:48 pm: |
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hmmm....we seem to have such a fixed understanding of culture. Life itself is not fixed, so what should culture be any different? Anytime, a subordinate group in within the cauldron of another, its language, foods, etc...will often be similar, but also different. I gone! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 830
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 07:46 pm: |
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***It is not unusual for African Americans to conflate all black folk. Secondly, hip hop, to me at least, neither defines nor equates to the socalled black experience; it is the part but not the whole.***
Fellas -- if one black guy wears a pair of Jordan's while making a few "runs" and the other wears a bow tie while running the business, are they usually still affected by the same racist black experiences? YES!!!
Ladies -- how different are the rich surgeons who marry high yella and the broke thugs who do the same? NONE!!!
Point is, we ALLLL share the exact same racist/colorist/misogynistic (black) experiences; which means we're all a part of the same prejudged, colorist, misogynic black culture.... And whether we like it or not -- a group of black and latino kids defined that culture.. which they've been doing it ever since.
The dilemma: For the first time in history, black folks are defining themselves... but, even though we don't like what we see, that leaves little room for debate.
...That's the dilemma.
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 962
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 09:09 pm: |
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Let explain part of what you quoted, because it wasn't directly relevant. And this is my own fault.
When I said that African Americans conflate all black folk. I was differentiating people of African descent who are descendants of slaves in the US and continental Africans.
I wasn't talking about class differences among African Americans.
------------
Point is, we ALLLL share the exact same racist/colorist/misogynistic (black) experiences; which means we're all a part of the same prejudged, colorist, misogynic black culture.... And whether we like it or not -- a group of black and latino kids defined that culture.. which they've been doing it ever since.
No, you have equated a 30 year old subculture with a 400 year old culture. Again, hip hop is only a part not the whole. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 869
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 09, 2005 - 10:15 pm: |
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Tonya, I totally disagree with this statement:
For the first time in history, black folks are defining themselves
When black slaves "jumped the broom"---when they created the "Afro pick"---when they created the "straightening comb" and chose to use the word "Nana" instead of "Nanny".....they were DEFINING themselves.
I do agree with other BLACKER blacks---that "American Negroes" have this habit of thinking and talking as though they're the only black people on earth--and that they're the complete creation of only themselves and that white people hatched them from eggs on plantations. I'm not being shitty--I'm just say'n.
And on what exact "day" 400 years ago did your culture suddenly begin? That, too, is bullshit----but since YUKIO isn't man enough to AFFIRM..."BLACK people" (because he fears what it will uncover about "HIM" and his people's hand in all of our destruction)..., but hides behind the pretention that it's perfectly normal and natural for black people to be SEPARATED and Conquered through BASTARDIZATION----and that nobody should address this,
but rather embrace an illness that can't have a CAP put on it and that actively feeds and sustains White Supremacy and the Dominant Culture, is just proof that he's never going to grasp the full depth of this subject anyway.
I just saw the previews of "RENT" and Rosario Dawson----and I'm sorry---but I don't want any part of that "diaspora", the self-defeating Taye Diggs Super-Nigger or the ISOLATION they suffer--that's not GOOD ENOUGH for my children--just to be able to say, "I live on the same block with the Dominant culture".
If I ever have a daughter, I don't want her to look, think or act ANYTHING LIKE Rosario Dawson.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 831
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
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This 30+ year old culture is not a subculture (not in the context you're using it in) it's the current black culture. And, by the way, what do you think brought us here??? Could it be that 400 year old (culture?) history you mentioned?
Kola: A) I was talking about "defining" through the media. B) We were discussing AA culture. We know we're not the only blacks on the planet.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 832
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:49 am: |
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Yukio: Again, hip hop is only a part not the whole.
Tonya: Historically, no. The current culture, yes.
Otherwise, explain please: A part of what? The whole of what?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 833
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 01:18 am: |
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Another thing, let me make myself completely clear -- HipHop is not a culture.
It defines the current culture. It's the definition of a culture, if you will. That's why they call it the hiphop culture. I don't like the (childlike) name; and the images it's using to define, either. But that's part of Mitchell's point: we let a handful of kids define our cultue and now some of us are embarrassed.
Tonya |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 963
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 07:12 am: |
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Tonya:
No, you have equated a 30 year old subculture with a 400 year old culture. Again, hip hop is only a part not the whole.
The subculture is hip hop (30 years), and the larger culture is African American culture (400).
I agree with Kola, where she brilliantly states: When black slaves "jumped the broom"---when they created the "Afro pick"---when they created the "straightening comb" and chose to use the word "Nana" instead of "Nanny".....they were DEFINING themselves.
In other words, in the naming of objects, rituals, etc...African Americans created, through their experience in the US and the confluence of various African cosmologies what I call a New World African culture in the US (this was the crux of my conversation, if u call, with elder Rustang). This is why I've stated, African Americans make up a nation within a nation, a nation with its own culture.
At any rate, we can not agree on what a culture is, so let me move on to Kola Boof.
Kola Boof:
More rubbish..., as usual.
And on what exact "day" 400 years ago did your culture suddenly begin? That, too, is bullshit----but since YUKIO isn't man enough to AFFIRM..."BLACK people" (because he fears what it will uncover about "HIM" and his people's hand in all of our destruction)..., but hides behind the pretention that it's perfectly normal and natural for black people to be SEPARATED and Conquered through BASTARDIZATION----and that nobody should address this,
but rather embrace an illness that can't have a CAP put on it and that actively feeds and sustains White Supremacy and the Dominant Culture, is just proof that he's never going to grasp the full depth of this subject anyway.
This is quite interesting, isn't it. Somehow, you have read the prose of my soul. Is that so?
Now, besides the typical ad hominem, in this case since I've said that I embrace people who are among the spanish caribbean as black (tito trinidad, for example) then i believe in bastardization, what is useful in this recent diatribe? Also, but how typical, you are trying to push us to your favorite topic--colorism. I'll not go there, for we have what? three years discussing color AND we have done so only a week ago, so sorry kola, I'm not interested with that discussion...It is funny how you have nothing to say to me except when u get a chance to denigrate me based upon what u think I think about color...I thought we were talking about Mitchell, oh well, you are infamous for your selfish tangents!
Let me leave you with this:
And you can talk about America....and your EXPERIENCES in it for 400 years....and how you got your own culture now.....all the fuck you want.
I'm 26,000 years old baby boy!
And your 400 year old
BLACK...NIGGER...PLANTATION...YELLOW ASS
That was only a week ago...November 02, 2005 - 01:59 am, just in case you've forgotten! How consistent we are? Where goes your consistency? There goes your anger, there goes your ad hominem, there goes your colorism....how typical!
And on what exact "day" 26,000 years ago did your culture suddenly begin?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 834
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
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When's the last time you've seen a couple jump the broom, a brotha or sistah sport an Afro pick, or use a staightening comb, and how many of use still use the word "nana"( I don't know anyone who does). None of this is the CURRENT CULTURE which has been my point all along. We're in a culture that, to my knowledge, lacks universal language+food+traditions. Just because you refuse to acnowledge it's existence does not mean it doesn't exist. And you kill me when you can't come up with an argument -- you become patronizing and you make it seem like the other person don't know what they're talking about: "we can not agree on what a culture is." Well, tell me then, since you already admitted it's not class, what makes the hiphop culture/experiences different from the rest of AA culture, thus, making it a subculture?
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 835
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:32 pm: |
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And... As I think Kola alluded, if you wan't to get technical.. since slavery, we've never had a real culture to begin with; language+food+traditions ect were taken from us -- and shortly thereafter, we've been needling and threading pieces of a culture together; which is why we now find ourselves in the current *PSEUDO* culture that we're in, IMO.
Tonya |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 770
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:37 pm: |
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Your last post had such good points, Yukio! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2980
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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I agree, Moonie. In avoiding emotional hyperbole and sticking to logic and established criteria, Yukio makes credible points. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 873
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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Yukio, to me, you're a big coward on each subject I raise and in serious denial.
No matter how the Tater Tot twins try and rub vicks vapor rub on your weezy chest.
You dismiss the reality that came before your own reality....claiming that I have nothing substantial to say. Nothing of any use.
Yeah. That's what your great/great X10 grandfather used to say as he sold your people into slavery---while ignoring the words of African mothers and women. 500 years later, you're still the same arrogant "clinically-speaking" mule-bone head.
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Enchanted
Newbie Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 9
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 03:21 pm: |
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Yukio I'm so glad you told this Kola person where to get off. She is so annoying and foolish. Cynique made all the sense in the world about why on earth anyone should think they are god.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2983
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 03:25 pm: |
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Screw you, Kola. Even when I don't agree with Yukio, I still realize that he has legitimacy. We slavery descendants's don't need a name-calling interloper like you. All you do is to use your standards to judge us by and your standards are so totally imbued with your identity that they are not of any "substance" to us. You are not our mother. Or even our sister. You are not a prophet or a Seer. You are an alien in our midst, a visitor from planet Kola. Who needs you? |
Enchanted
Newbie Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 03:34 pm: |
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Hooray Cynique! I'm glad somebody said it.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3970
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 03:40 pm: |
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Interesting discussion about hip-hop, culture, etc. But if you all wouldn't mind, I'm going to redirect the discussion back to the University of Chicago (UC).
Supply-side, trickle-down, rich-foks-FIRST economics was born amid the lofty environs of the University of Chicago. They gave Nobel Prizes to UC professors/scholars for concocting those theories.
UC helped give us Ronald Reagan.
Voodoo Economics.
George Bush Sr.
Deficit spending.
George Bush Jr.
Tax-cuts for the rich.
And that most dreaded dark lord...DICK CHENEY.
Consider that...
Then consider that only 4% of UC's undergraduate student body is Black. THAT...in Chicago, who's Black population dwarfs any American city save, perhaps New York.
We can (and likely will) harp on the relative virtues and demerits of hip-hop ad infinitium.
But when I think of Mitchell's article about the University of Chicago (and other schools of its ilk) I can hardly give a dayam about Jay Z, gold teeth and sagging pants.
Instead, I think of theories being crafted, decisions being made and strategies being implemented that have reaped havoc upon us all...and we are not even in a place to refute, much less thwart, them. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2984
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 04:37 pm: |
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The atomic bomb was also developed at the U. of C. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3973
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 04:51 pm: |
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Cynique,
Yep. That's what I'm talking about... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 964
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 06:02 pm: |
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ABM: Welcome back. I hope all is well for you and your family. You have been missed.
Cynique and Enchanted: Thank You!
Tonya: You have said there is no culture, and I have said there is a culture. We've reached an impasse...what is patronizing about that?
Kola: Your hypocrisy has, again, been shown. Is this why I am a coward? When I point out your shortcoming using your own posts, is then why I am "arrogant"? Again, you are shown to be disingenious and dishonest:
Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 02:54 pm
You dismiss the reality that came before your own reality
Yukio, November 10, 2005 - 07:12 am:
In other words, in the naming of objects, rituals, etc...African Americans created, through their experience in the US and the confluence of various African cosmologies what I call a New World African culture in the US (this was the crux of my conversation, if u call, with elder Rustang). This is why I've stated, African Americans make up a nation within a nation, a nation with its own culture.
Clearly, I DONT "dismiss the reality that came before" my "own reality."
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 836
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 06:15 pm: |
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***Tonya: You have said there is no culture, and I have said there is a culture. We've reached an impasse...what is patronizing about that? ***
You're such a liar... but that's ok. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 966
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 06:41 pm: |
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Tonya: Liar? No!
As I stated before, we can not agree upon what culture is...impasse!
You stated:
which is why we now find ourselves in the current *PSEUDO* culture that we're in, IMO.
Ok. Let me restate, you believe that we have a culture, but it is fake. Is that better?
The CURRENT CULTURE is part of the larger, older culture. The way many black people cook their foods, worship in church, the language, have not died! These rituals and customs still exist, and actually I know many couples who've jumped the broom!
Call and response is from the black church! How do you understand Lil Jon and hip hop in general without call and response? Every thanksgiving, black folk prepare some of the same foods that white americans prepare, but we do it differently; we put different foods together, use different seasonings! Socalled soul food is slave food. Good or bad. Chitlins, etc...was all we could get as slaves. Now, I don't know bout you, but I luv me some chitlins...cept I'm not trying to clean them! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 837
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 06:46 pm: |
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We live on two different planets, bro. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 838
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 07:22 pm: |
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By the way, when they created the "Afro pick"---when they created the "straightening comb" and chose to use the word "Nana" instead of "Nanny"... that Was black peoples way of reclaiming themselves, not defining themselves... cause even then (AFRO) they had SOMEBODY ELSE sticking a camera in their faces and defining what they saw. When I say, for the first time in history, black folks are defining themselves, I mean homeboy next door picking up pen & papper and defining his culture... not some hollywood executive, or the white news media.
Tonya
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 773
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 08:44 pm: |
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KOLA:
"I just saw the previews of "RENT" and Rosario Dawson----and I'm sorry----I don't want any part of that "dispora", the self-defeating Taye Diggs Super-Nigger or the ISOLATION they suffer........If I ever have a daughter, I don't want her to look, think or act ANYTHING LIKE Rosario Dawson."
MOONSIGNS:
Poor Rosario!!!! With her talent, fame, stunning beauty and the girlfriend of one of the hottest--most FIONE-- freakin' men on the damn planet (Jason Lewis), I'm sure she's just so heartbroken, isolated and incomplete without the love and acceptance of Kola Boof.
LMAO!
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 839
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 09:44 pm: |
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Dictionary.com: culture is, “The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. “These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population.”
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 879
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 09:55 pm: |
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That's interesting, MOON.
You see Rosario as having "talent" and being a stunning beauty.
I MISSED ALL that.
This may come as a shock to a Deerfield White woman like you---but I don't like her looks.
I mean, she's no Lauryn Hill or Melinda Williams.
Who's Jason Lewis?
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 967
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 01:23 am: |
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Tonya: Homeboys and homegirls next door picking up pen and paper included Frederick Douglas, Martin Delany, Charle Chestnutt, Zora Neale Hurston, Richard Wright, Maya Angelou, Ntozake Shange, Octavia Butler, Gloria Naylor, August Wilson, Harriet Wilson, Gwendolyn Brooks, Amiri Baraka, Langston Hughes, Toni Morrison, Audre Lorde, SOnia Sanchez, Lorraine Hansberry, Alice Walker, Toni Cade Bambara, Etta James, John Coltrane, Duke Ellington, Miles Davis, Nina Simone, and many, many others.... all of these people defined our culture at a particular time, BUT it is possible to identify "patterns and traits... considered as the expression of" African American culture in general.
KRS ONE, Ice-T and NWA were talking about police brutality in the late 80s, early 90s....
Poem about Police Violence
by June Jordan (1980)
Tell me something
what you think would happen if
everytime they kill a black boy
then we kill a cop
everytime they kill a black man
then we kill a cop
you think the accident rate would lower subsequently?
"If We Must Die" (1919) by Claude McKay
If we must die, let it not be like hogs
Hunted and penned in an inglorious spot,
While round us bark the mad and hungry dogs,
Making their mock at our accursed lot.
If we must die, O let us nobly die,
So that our precious blood may not be shed
In vain; then even the monsters we defy
Shall be constrained to honor us though dead!
O kinsmen we must meet the common foe!
Though far outnumbered let us show us brave,
And for their thousand blows deal one deathblow!
What though before us lies the open grave?
Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack,
Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!
In Ida B. Wells-Barnett's Southern Horrors and Other Writings (1892) she states:
"a Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black house...It should be used for that protection which the law refuses to give. When the white man who is always the aggressor knows he runs as great risk of biting the dust every time his Afro-American friend does, he will have greater respect for Afro-American life."
Again, hip hop is part of the whole of African American culture....it is a different form, within the musical tradition. |
Prettybabygirl
Newbie Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 01:54 am: |
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Hi Yuko.
Know I have not post in a minute, since April, LOL. Not trying to start nothing, but it could be argued that Kola Boof is a part of our culture too now. She has taken pen to paper and was voted by Howard University Student Union the favorite new writer award a few years ago.
http://www.geocities.com/district_edu/howarduniversity.html
I don't post because I mostly agree with everything you been saying on this thread, but sista with the controversial views is repp'n for a whole lot of black folks who feel closer to her than yall, they just on the DL. I have not enjoyed the harshness of her posts on this board, but I live by her published works. She is unshakeable for those who read her and one of my favorites.
She's from D.C. to me. She is defining our culture as we speak.
Word. Back to lurk.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 968
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 02:19 am: |
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Prettybabygirl,
I can not speak on Kola's work, for I have not read it, but if you say so, then I will respect that! My abbreviated shopping list included people i've read and musicians I've listened to, who have a sensibility that express, in my opinion, African American culture. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 774
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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Kola,
There you go with your assumptions. It doesn't shock me (at all) that you don't find her attractive--as beauty and what one considers to be beautiful is relative. How you feel about Rosario regarding her looks is similiar to how I feel about Angela Bassett (sp?)--so I understand perfectly well. Beauty is different to different people--that's nothing to debate.
However, what I do find interesting is how just because you don't seem to think she has certain qualities, you assume she is "suffering" from "isolation". In that respect, I absolutely disagree with you. That theory is baseless.
KOLA:
"Who's Jason Lewis?"
MOONSIGNS:
Do a google or yahoo search for pictures and information--if you haven't already.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 840
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 01:07 pm: |
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Yukio:
First off, they defined us for whom? Secondly, each one of them (the authors you quoted) only gave part of the story. Not only does hiphop bare the whole story (dirty laundry and all) it's baring it for the whole world to see. Understanding and knowing oneself is great! But isn't the purpose of defining oneself (especailly in the context of our discussion) so that *OTHERS* can get a clear understnding of who you are. None of the authors you quoted bared the *WHOLE* truth, especially in a clear precise mannor, and none of them have done it in a way that is even close to being comparable to the way hiphop has done it. Hiphop is global... and it transcends age, race, gender, color, sexuality ect. -- eveybody knows about it the majority of whom can/do relate to it. Those authors you quoted didn't come close to having that effect. So I'll ask again: defined us for whom?
Prettybabygirl,
I don't know who you are, but if you notice, in an earlier post I said: Hiphop the industry, which illustrates the culture, seems to be the visual effects of EVERYTHING you've {Kola Boof} been preaching on these boards.
So, I agree with you. She is defining our culture as we speak. And I'd go further by saying that she is doing it more clearly, much more precisely, therefore, a hell of a lot better than ANY of the authors that was previously quoted.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 841
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 01:52 pm: |
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Also:
***Again, hip hop is part of the whole of African American culture....it is a different form, within the musical tradition.***
You keep confusing music and images with culture -- that's why you keep saying, it's only a part.
Let me try it one more time:
HIPHOP IS NOT A CULTURE. THE MUSIC & IMAGES DEFINES A CULTURE; THEREFORE, THAT CULTURE WAS *DUBBED* THE HIPHOP CULTURE. JAY-Z'S LYRICS ARE NOT A CULTURE -- THEY DEFINE A CULTURE. SINCE YOUNG KIDS WERE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAD THE BALLS TO DEFINE OUR FUCKED UP CULTURE, THEY GET CREDIT FOR DOING SO; HENCE, THE HIPHOP CULTURE.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 842
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 02:47 pm: |
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Lastly, if you're saying that the lyrics only define one part of the culture, understand, hiphop is like poetry -- the lyrics expresses a lot more than what they say. Yes, rappers like Public Enemy rapped about police brutality in the United states, but they were also talking about the treatment of blacks in Africa and around the world. I've never lived the life that Jay-Z has, yet I can relate to alot of what he says because the lyrics (and the way they're contructed i.e poetry) has many meanings... and, believe it or not, much of it have nothing to do with violence... but if you don't know you will misinterpret it that way.
I don't know what they're doing or saying today -- it's been a few years since I've listened to the music. But unless their *technique* (not the words) changed drastically over the last three or four years, their lyrics relates to ALLLL of us... if interpreted the correct way.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 843
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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... Oops... forgive my subject, verb agreement. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 969
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 03:01 pm: |
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Tonya: Lets go from the bottom up.
You keep confusing music and images with culture -- that's why you keep saying, it's only a part.
That is your opinion; one I disagree with. The music and images both define a larger culture and constitute the particular subculture. This is my argument, which you disagree with and thats all to the good.
Concerning my shopping list. It was meant to show that prior to hip hop there is/was a long list of people defining themselves. This was a response to your position. Im not sure what you mean by "the whole story" or the "whole truth," (Personally, I don't think the 'whole truth or story' can be depicted; that is, is believe, in the realm of the spirit life) but if by that you mean the good, bad, and the ugly then most of the people I listed did so.
If Gayl Jones' literature doesn't speak the "truth"? Her literature is much more raw and emancipatory than hip hop. Claude McKay didn't speak the truth? Nina Simone didn't speak the truth? Again, if the truth is telling it like it is, good or bad, then these folk were some of the best!
Concerning the global issue. This has some merit as it regards that yes, the music is global. But, concerning the nature of our discussion, it is really irrelevant because the folk I listed (though the musicians are actually global...miles, coltrane, sarah vaugh, nina simone, etc...) did not live and create and fight racism in such a technologically and commercially advanced period. Without US'cultural hegemony (technology, multinationals, MTV, etc...)hip hop would still be a US phenomena. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 887
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 03:40 pm: |
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Hi Tonya. Thank you so much precious. I love you so much.
Prettybabygirl!!!!!!
Where have you been?
Thank you so much.
And I just noticed that you've only posted 24 times on this board! It seemed like more than that. You really do lurk.
But I was not voted "favorite new writer", I was voted "favorite woman of 2002".
God bless you and all the students at HOWARD U.
Kola
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 888
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 03:45 pm: |
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And you both are right.
Kola Boof is an AMERICAN CITIZEN.
She lives in the United States.
Her following is MOSTLY Black Americans...and she is accultured to the point that she SOUNDS like a Black American.
What I bring to the pot.....
is that I am YOU, before you was YOU
And I used to be downhearted, but God has shown me that he placed me here for a reason--to bring up things that other AAs would not ordinarily bring up, but to be close enough to them to have communication.
Most Africans in U.S. are not close to you. So they can't communicate.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 844
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 05:11 pm: |
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***The music and images both define a larger culture and constitute the particular subculture. This is my argument, which you disagree with and thats all to the good.***
No, that's not true. First of all you're referring to class; and we already agreed to put class aside, remember??? But, the bottom line is, you're (now) admitting that *IT* - that which "contitutes a subculture" - defined black culture....
That has been my point from the very begining.
...(And you know that)
The fact that you're saying the music and images constitute a particular subculture, I disagree with wholeheartedly. Now, if you're saying that the images and music (not necessarily the lyrics) define (not constitute) a particular subcuture; one which is normally comprised of the young; and, transcends race, color, class ect., then I agree. I'd also agree that this subculture is rapidly influencing all of the larger cultures, i.e. those who are included in and being represented only by the lyrics, and others.
***Concerning my shopping list. It was meant to show that prior to hip hop there is/was a long list of people defining themselves.***
To who? You still haven't answered that question. And, as I said before, understanding and knowing oneself is great! But isn't the purpose of defining oneself is so that *OTHERS* can get a clear understnding of who you are.
***If Gayl Jones' literature doesn't speak the "truth"? Her literature is much more raw and emancipatory than hip hop. Claude McKay didn't speak the truth? Nina Simone didn't speak the truth? Again, if the truth is telling it like it is, good or bad, then these folk were some of the best!***
But were they clear and precise, or were they hard to understand, for some? You and I have decided to put class aside, but maybe that's the problem. The difference between Gayl Jones and Jay-Z has more to do with class... but the fact still remains: Jay-z told the truth to the world.... Who did Gayl Jones speak to? I agree that Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Zora Neale Hurston and others are extremely good at *ALLUDING* the truth, some may have even told it, but did they tell it in a way that *everyone* could undertand?
...Okay, Yes... just as some of us have a problem understanding/relating to many of those you listed, some also have a serious problem interpreting Jay-Z. But, still, you can't deny... Jay-Z and the plainer, yet poetic, technique he uses to get his point across has reached not only the people it was intended for, it has reached millions around the world. Maybe that goes to show that class doesn't always prevail... and even though I truly adore some of the people you mentioned, I'm almost sure that, in this case, class not prevailing didn't turn out to be the least *effective* thing.
Tonya
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 889
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 05:59 pm: |
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Tonya--Gayl Jones was badder and more real and more TRUTHFUL than Jay Z will ever be.
She's in a mental institution right now (her husband committed suicide the night before she went in). But that was one bad sista.
And please don't get mad.
But I really believe that BLACK PEOPLE have been defining themselves and have been creating a specialized "acculturation" amongst themselves long before Hip Hop.
Nina Simone and the "Afro pick" (which was CREATED and MARKETED by "BLACKS" for their own hair texture---whitey had nothing to do with it) and so many others---Curtis Mayfield was damn sure the truth and repped the culture.
Gil Scott Heron. Malcolm X.
They DID clearly define BLACK culture...and then WHITE PEOPLE STOLE IT.
There's nothing that Hip Hop has extolled that wasn't extolled by The Cotton Club.
And remember those old stories where black men claimed they could only have "nearly white" females perform at the club, because of white men setting the rules?
Well that was bullshit. Upper class BLACK MEN, it turns out, were the ones who wanted a fantasy mecca where they could oggled White-looking women and cater to their White patrons at the same time.
Josephine Baker's son has now told the story over and over again about how she REALLLLY came to Paris....after a "Black male" Stage Producer said that she was (too dark and negro looking) to have the LEAD in his play and she'd have to remain the comical relief in blackface. She left for France the next day.
So Hip Hop is NOTHING NEW.
What happened...is that De-segregation revealed another, uglier truth about Blacks.
It revealed their self-hatred and their abiding trust in all things white.
Without being FORCED to live together---they were now free to show how they really felt and what their real dreams were.
Movies like "The Mack"(1974), "Superfly" (1972)....clearly glamorizing being a Pimp and drug dealer and blatantly show black men disrespecting black women and glorifying white women as a "prize". The whole Hip Hop "basic attitude" came from these movies.
I mean---you want truth---read "Black Boy" by Richard Wright, which was published in the 1930's. He CLEARLY DEFINED black culture.
Zora Neale Hurston's "Mules and Men" (I believe this is the anthropology books she did) is another one that CLEARLY DEFINES black culture.
Get yourself a Bessie Smith CD. She clearly DEFINED black culture-----she made countless hits about "colorism" and about the joys of being a lesbian or the joys of being of sex with men ("Deep Sea Diver").....and Black Culture, from the food to the bed linen fabric were documented in her music.
This is NOT the first time that Black culture has been defined.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 845
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 06:29 pm: |
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Kola, please, lol! I would never get mad at you for saying what you think. That's partly the reason why I'm here.
***I really believe that BLACK PEOPLE have been defining themselves and have been creating a specialized "acculturation" amongst themselves long before Hip Hop.***
***amongst themselves***
I don't disagree at all with that part, because, untill now, we have been talking amongst ourselves. But as I said twice before... understanding and knowing oneself is great! But isn't the purpose of defining oneself is so that *OTHERS* can get a clear understnding of who you are.
See, that's what I think all the hype is about. I still maintain that hiphop is the only tool in history that has effectively defined us (TO OTHER PEOPLE)... but what does that mean. We'll, it means that, for the first time, we're being defined to other people... and we don't like what we see, because it includes our dirty laundry; and for yeeeaaars we didn't want *THAT* to get out. "Defining" ourselves (if that's what you wanna call it) amongst ourselves is one thing, dirty laundry and all. Defining ourselves to others (the whole world) is another, especailly when our dirty laundry is involved. Hiphop has done the unthinkable... and that's what the hype is about.
Tonya
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 846
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 06:47 pm: |
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Here's an excellent example of what I'm talking about. If I were to present all of the facts you brought up in your last post to MOST of the non-black people I know, they would't know what the hell I'm talking about. But if I were to mention a verse from a Jay-Z song, not only would they finish it, they'd tell *ME* where the hell he's coming from.
Ain't that some shit?
They may not totally understand, but they can relate... and I'll be damned if they don't relate it to their own experiences. They couldn't/wouldn't do that with Malcolm X.... That's my point.
Tonya |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 847
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 07:03 pm: |
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...And these people are not radicals -- they're your average middle class and upper class white folks. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 890
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 07:45 pm: |
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I still maintain that hiphop is the only tool in history that has effectively defined us (TO OTHER PEOPLE)..
But what about the Harlem Renaissance?
What about Jazz and Blues?
What about the Black Power Culture---which was DEFINITELY a "culture" producing its own music, its own movies and everything!
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 891
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 07:50 pm: |
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Tonya, you may be arguing the OPPOSITE of what you're claiming.
If Whites can relate and know Jay-Z better than we can...then it COULD BE that Hip Hip
is really defining MADISON AVENUE and not us at all.
I think you're arguing that we're being REPRESENTED by something that's not us.
But honestly....it's not that Blacks haven't been defining themselves. It's that Whites are interested right now.
And plenty whites were into John Coltrane and Miles Davis..the way they are with Jay-Z
Whites were all into the Harlem Renaissance
Whites have always been able to tell you about black culture.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 970
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 08:04 pm: |
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Tonya: I think Kola and I are making the same point. We differ on a couple points, however. 1)Here comment that about self-hatred and African Americans "abiding trust in all things white" is overstated. There are a sufficient people here--including yourself, KOla, and her African Americans constituency--to suggest that isn't true. Malcolm, Garvey, and others are glaring examples. (2) I would go further back to desegregation. The proof is there in Claude McKay's Home To Harlem, as well as much of Rudolph Fisher's Short Stories. This was the tension between the black elitists (Du Bois, Charles JOhnson, etc..) and Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes, McKay, Wallace Thurman and others....beyond those two points, Kola and I are in general agreement.
This leads to the question of to whom were these people defining themselves to? You and I, it seems, disagree here.
To who? You still haven't answered that question. And, as I said before, understanding and knowing oneself is great! But isn't the purpose of defining oneself is so that *OTHERS* can get a clear understnding of who you are.
Hmmmm....the people on my list were defining their own representation of the culture to themselves, their people, and whomever chose to listen (white people). Remember, in a basic way culture is information, so whoever choses to listen will do so. Hip hop, as I pointed out, was for black folk; once it was commodified it became global, as did blues, jazz, and r&b. But when you claim that hip hop is "truth," you should consider the content of the music before and after it was commodified on a global scale. This is an old discussion, for many believe that much of the content is both glamorized and even exoticized for white consumption.....
This leads to a bastardization of the art form for money...to cater to whites' racist internalized imagery of black men and women.
This is why, my initial contribution to this thread talked about how white students exoticized the entertainment and social practices of black people.
This is not new! White folk have always slummed to black areas and attempted to reproduce the same atmosphere...this occurred in the 19th century and black and tans. I am more familiar within the 20s, however. Read Carl Van Vetchan's Nigger Heaven...or watch the movie The Cotton Club...
Also, I am a student of Toni Morrison, though maybe not as good as Kola...don't know. At any rate, Morrison argues that her literature filled in a literary gap, because, unlike Richard Wright and Ralph Ellison, she made no attempt to engage white people. She, in other words, did not feel the need to represent black folk for white people. This is important, for to talk about blacks only when white folk are involved is to presume that the culture and existence of black folk is limited to their dealings with white folk....this was my point to elder Rustang. That although African Ameriacns are the amalgamation of africans, indians, and europeans cultures, we constructed this culture, we used the ingredients, in our own way, which accounts for the similarities but the independence of African American culture. I do not know why I have been charged with excluding African culture, for I have stated for years, that African American culture is African, although the ingredients include European and Indian. I have called this New World African culture...
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 971
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 08:05 pm: |
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yes...kola, you have beat me to the punch! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 972
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 08:17 pm: |
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I disagree. Toni Morrison has argued that european culture is about europeans, but we can see universal themes....love, hate, war, etc....
This is the same in all of African American culture....who can not identify with the blues? Maybe this is generational? (though I am a rather young man...and don't ask!)But jazz, blues, and r&b have all done what hip hop is doing....if u go to europe and talk to someone in their 50s...what do they identify their personal history with the Motown Sound....watch some of these Americanized British romantic comedies....they play r&b, blues, and jazz....shit, if u wanna a good sound track, just buy of them! Who inspired Eric Clapton, the Beetles, the Rolling Stones?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 848
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 08:41 pm: |
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***Tonya, you may be arguing the OPPOSITE of what you're claiming. If Whites can relate and know Jay-Z better than we can...then it COULD BE that Hip Hip is really defining MADISON AVENUE and not us at all.***
I already stated in an earler post:
Let's say hiphop is the most powerful tool (i.e. culture) to ever define a culture.... If it's a tool that can define, and also has the ability to replace, could it not then also erase?Accurately or not, hiphop has been defining urban black men and women since it's birth... but, sytematically, it's been visually erasing black women to the point where she no longer exists -- she's been replaced by the mulato and non-black women; so, although she still lives the lyrics, visually she is no longer a part of the song. Now, if we look at the "tool" as a culture (which it is) that means the culture is erasing itself. Right now it's erasing the women but ultimately it will erase the whole culture...
I also said: No {Yvette} I haven't seen the trailers, but if you're saying that 50 Cent's support of Gearge W. is an example of the hiphop industry/culture erasing itself, I agree with you wholeheartedly. What an excellent point. And, notice how white people are cheering him on.
I'm not contradicting myself -- I'm just stating what I see.
***Whites have always been able to tell you about black culture.***
Yes, *some* have... but I'm not just talking about an intelluctual standpoint -- these white, Asian, Hispanic, young, old, rich, poor, male, female, American, foreign, Arab, Christian, Buddhist, people can honestly relate to it similarly to the way you and I relate to it -- both intellectually and through experience -- cause they can/do apply it to their own experiences.
Tonya
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 849
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 09:01 pm: |
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I'm through with this thread! Not because I'm mad -- it's because ya'll think I'm dissin' people (historical black figures and litterary legends); therefore y'all refuse to grasp what I'm talking... and I'm tired of repeating myself, lol.
But before I go:
***Remember, in a basic way culture is information, so whoever choses to listen will do so. Hip hop, as I pointed out, was for black folk; once it was commodified it became global, as did blues, jazz, and r&b. But when you claim that hip hop is "truth," you should consider the content of the music before and after it was commodified on a global scale. This is an old discussion, for many believe that much of the content is both glamorized and even exoticized for white consumption***
If you can say that about almost EVEYTHING about our culture, INCLUDING OUR BOOKS; WHICH IS ALSO A PART OF AN INDUSTRY... what's your point?
Tonya
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 850
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 09:08 pm: |
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My bad, "literary legends"... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 973
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 09:41 pm: |
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tonya: how ya gonna say you're through, but then you ask a question? lmao!!
Is it possible that we grasp what you're saying and we just disagree?
If you can say that about almost EVEYTHING about our culture, INCLUDING OUR BOOKS; WHICH IS ALSO A PART OF AN INDUSTRY... what's your point?
Two points: (1)The point that Hip hop speaks "the whole truth" is not new. In fact, others have done so before hip hop. In this sense, hip hop is a reflection of what came before it. (2) And, that white folks, poor and rich, have always listened to and read black music and literature. Asians and others are a reflection of the present...that fact of immigration, the commodification of music, so that it can reach folk through the television, internet, i pod, airplanes, etc....
On another point, I'm not sure nonblacks can identify with these cultural symbols the same way culturally african americans can.
Hip hop, at least its origins, is based on a working class African American culture, so it is not unusual, for example, for middle-class suburbans African Americans to be out of touch with the issues, symbols, etc... of alot of hip hop. In this sense, it is not just about being African American, but it is also class, region, etc...so if other African Americans can't get some hip hop, I doubt if asians and others are gonna get it they way we do!
My background is similar to many rappers...but different from Will Smith's, for example. If we look at Philadelphia, for example, there is a difference between The Roots and Will Smith, whether you talk about both artists early or late in their careers! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 851
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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Clarification: I was through with this thread cuz I was hungry.... Now I'm back.
***...I'm not sure nonblacks can identify with these cultural symbols the same way culturally african americans can.***
I didn't say the same. I said similarly... meaning, intellectually and by relating it to their own experiences.
***Hip hop, at least its origins, is based on a working class African American culture, so it is not unusual, for example, for middle-class suburbans African Americans to be out of touch with the issues, symbols, etc... of alot of hip hop. In this sense, it is not just about being African American, but it is also class, region, etc...so if other African Americans can't get some hip hop, I doubt if asians and others are gonna get it they way we do!***
Yeah? Well, why is it that I get Bill O'reilly so well??? Even though we most likely come from different backrounds, are from different races, different genders, different age groups, and I disagree with much of what he says, just a few hours ago it was reported that he said something like, he wishes San Francisco (and nobody else) gets obliterated the the next time Al Qaeda comes. Less than a year ago, I swear to god, I was wishing for all of the "red states" (and no other state) to get obliterated the next time Al Qaeda comes; so for that reason, I'm not offended by what Bill O'reilly just said. Point is, through my understanding of politics and my ability to relate it to my own experiences, I can relate to someone like Bill O'reilly. What makes you think that through hiphop, if he took the time, Bill O'reilly can't relate to someone like me?
Keep in mind, when I say they can relate, I don't mean like, love, agree, or anything like that -- I just mean relate.
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 975
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Tonya: Thats funny! You were hungry, eh? You are silly!
Same does not equate to similar. You are certainly correct, there!
I don't disagree with your general point, which is, I think, that people of another culture can relate to what hip hop expresses. I think there is very little of substance that you and O'Reilly would agree upon....but I don't know you from a can of paint...so don't start me to lying!
At any point, my point was that they (other groups) will not get it the way certain African Americans get it. But, as you have pointed out, you said similar and not same, so my point is irrelevant...forget it!
I, in many respects, would say "similar" is too strong a word...but thats me!
You get O'Reilly because you are a product of this country. You were born here and you have to be familiar with white "mainstream' Culture, as most African Americans and nonwhites do....it is not reciprocal, however. This is a white world, so whites don't have to know about us...we can remain exotic....thus, they can throw "thug" parties and believe that they are representing hip hop culture. If we don't, however, take them seriously, it is possible that our life chances will be null and void, unless you are a drug dealer, pimp, liquor store owner, etc....and live off the misery of your own community!
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 892
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:57 pm: |
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Yukio are you saying you are a student of Toni Morrison's literally?
Or you meant you read her works and don't know her?
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 976
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
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I've read and don't know her. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 852
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 12:14 am: |
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Yukio,
It sounds like you're saying that they *CAN* relate; so, You're right; On that point we don't disagree.... And, No, I don't always agree with Bill O'reilly.
***You were born here and you have to be familiar with white "mainstream' Culture...***
No I don't. In fact, I know many people who aren't.. and, believe it or not, they're doing just fine.
***it {being familiar} is not reciprocal, however.***
That's further from the truth than I think you may know. Whites don't have to know about us; yet, you'd be surprised at how many are familiar with us. Again, I don't mean: like, love, agree, or anything like that... and I definately don't mean that they completely understand our pain (one can only do that after experiencing it) -- I just mean that many are familiar with who we are.
That said, I don't disagree, at all, that many of them are being insensitive when they call themselves emulating us.
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 978
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 03:20 am: |
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Well, I disagree. Are we not conversing in english? What African languages do you know? What nation do you belong to? Are your clothes African or native american? Are they european? Do you not know about Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, etc...do you know of Mali and Songhai? How do you understand time? Is it linear...do you understand time as the simultaneity of past/present/future?
What are the standards of beauty in this country? Are they African? Why are you so concerned with colorisms? When you go to Walmart, why is there a small section devoted to you, but everything else devoted to white people. Where do you work? Who owns the business where you and most of the people you know, where do they work? And who owns the business in which they work? Why do white people call black people black, but they call other white people....people?
You are mistaken, Tonya. You are and have always dealt with white folk! You know many people who aren't....ok, if you say so!
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 853
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 04:21 am: |
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Uh-uh.. no! You ain't gettin' away that easy!
You said.. and I quote: "'mainstream' Culture."
And...
Last I checked, (A) those bastards BARELEY knew who Thomas Jefferson was, (B) they can't tell time, either.... The only thing that keeps them mainstream are the french vanilla lattes (lol).... That's funny but the shit ain't no lie.
But, yes, I do know many people (black and white) who aren't familiar with the mainstream culture; which not only means they don't drink lattes (lol) -- they don't no anything about the economy, politics, and NOBODY'S CULTURE (including their own).... And, I'm talking about Nurses, Chiropractors, other healthcare professionals, ect.... Now, I've never met a doctor (a real M.D.) nor a lawyer that wasn't keenly familiar with the mainstream culture.. but I have met a college professor who taught math, wasn't familiar with the mainstream, and knew NOTHING about the democratic process; yet the brotha was doing just fine. So, trust me, it happens!
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 980
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:23 am: |
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Tonya: No. I don't mean "pop culture." Reread the context of the two posts. I don't equate "mainstream" culture with "pop culture."
But here's clarification....here's what I meant! In my mind "mainstream" means white....I'm not talkin about "pop culture." Here is how I intended for you to read the post:
First I said that you were born here. This meant that this is a white controlled country, with white standards, etc...Then I said mainstream. When I said mainstream, I'm thinking of the arguements purported by the Moynihan report, Thomas Sowell, and Dinesh D'Souza NOT vanilla lattes! All have basically stated that blacks are poor because they have failed to assimilate to "mainstream" culture...these folk aren't talkin about lattes, Tonya.
Again, if we put it in that context....reread the second post and tell me you are not part of "mainstream" culture as I understand it!
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 981
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:28 am: |
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Rather not part of, but that you have to deal with it in an intimate way! Again, if you reread the first post, the logic of it basically states this is a white world and we have to deal with it in order to survive...thats it! Even the leeches I identified pimps and drug dealers....have to deal with the white man's law, so they don't escape, either! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 854
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 01:11 pm: |
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***I'm thinking of the arguements purported by the Moynihan report, Thomas Sowell, and Dinesh D'Souza NOT vanilla lattes! All have basically stated that blacks are poor because they have failed to assimilate to "mainstream" culture...these folk aren't talkin about lattes, Tonya.***
Except for what you stated, I don't know anything about the report you mentioned, but don't worry, I think I got you right, Bro -- the lattes were just my way of joking (lol). As for the what you recounted, my last post clearly disagrees with it. Yes, that's no big surprise since I rarely agree with anything I read by Sowell; still, I wouldn't discount my position as having anything to do with being biased. As I stated in my last post, I know many people (whites & blacks) that haven't assimilated into what I know as mainstream white culture. (That's minus the lattes to avoid confusion {lol}).... Nevertheless, these people are doing satisfactorily, financially & vocationally. What I've witnessed isn't anything I can control -- it is what it is; so, if I had to go with Sowell's report or my experiences, I haven't agreed with him so far; why start now (lol).
But, what you described sounds more like European culture.. and, in that context, I still disagree with you: some feel the need to adapt; and I agree that one must adjust.. but not much though.. it can just be a little.... That's all one needs in order to thrive and/or survive. I've meet many foreign students and Afican doctors who spoke very little English, abided mostly by their native cultures (several of which were not grossly tainted by European influences); yet they still managed nicely to practice medicine and become educated in this country.
So I don't buy the "assimilation" dupery. It doesn't fool me.. not one bit!
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 983
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 02:44 pm: |
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Tonya: Take my post as a package, as it is meant. I was talking about two basic levels. From the territorial and political sense and (2)the cultural and intellectual sense. I should not have used mainstream, for it does not do the work I wanted it to do!
At any rate, I am talking about white power and black mandatory engagement with this power!
The people who are "doing fine," who do they work for? Do they work for themselves, or do they work for white folk? Are these people the exception or the rule?
What language do you speak? Is it not english?
The fact that you use the term "foreign" is my point. This is not our original land. I know you know this, but get my point! I know that I have said that there is an African American culture that is distinct, but it is also embedded in a White culture, as well as African. And the white part is what I'm talking about. The white part attempts to erase the African...Where does the colorism which you hate come from?...It is not the African!
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 858
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 04:40 pm: |
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So what's the answer... assimilation? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 985
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 06:23 pm: |
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What's the question?
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Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 191
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 06:55 pm: |
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Some seem to think that 'assimilation' is like in Invasion of the Body Snatchers.It isn't.When an individual lives their entire life surrounded by and saturated with a particular culture, it is inevitable that the culture will rub off on them to some extent.The United States is predominately white.That's just how it is.That makes certain things acceptable and other things unacceptable in the United States.Again,that's just how it is.If I am to have a shot at feeding, housing and clothing my family, then I must operate within the parameters of the society I live in.I have been fortunate enough to have been able to accomplish the goal of taking care my family.In order to do that I needed first of all to be able to go to work every day.To be able to go to work every day, I needed to acquire a set of marketable skills and hone them to a degree that made me very difficult to replace.I also needed to be sufficiently pleasant company to negate the desire to replace me.I also needed to have the people I did business with, which were mostly white, be able to understand the words coming out of my mouth, so the accent and speech patterns I grew up with, which later became known as ebonics, had to go.I accomplished this by reading everything that I could get my hands on.Books are not written in ebonics.If a person reads regularly, they will almost have to start thinking in standard english, and the language one thinks in is the language one will speak.In just getting by day by day I suppose that I have swung towards the middle a little bit.If that is assimilation then so be it.The by-products of that have been that I have been able to put my daughter through college, giving her opportunities that I never had. I have been able to supply my wife with a comfortable life and I am generally at peace with myself and my neighbors.That's my idea of keeping it real.Keeping my family real happy, keeping my bills real paid and keeping my transportation real reliable (and real pretty )Person 'A' has to meet person 'B' somewhere near the middle for that to happen.Racism has really taken a beating on my block over the years.Once my neighbors figured out that I wasn't trying to sell drugs to their children,impregnate their women and burglarize their homes, we actually started getting along pretty well.But that took some time to accomplish.I had to be pleasant and articulate and, most importantly, I had to be seen busting up out of the house every morning and going to work.I guess that is assimilation, but I'm sure ok with it. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 860
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 09:00 pm: |
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Hi, Rustang! Good to have you back! Your post is interesting, but I wouldn't call that assimilation because all of what you described is, without a doubt, what everyone (YES, INCLUDING BLACK FOLKS) should do... and, since it all can be done while valuing oneself, in fact, can help to value oneself, theres no reason to think a reasonable person would think otherwise. I'd like to see the day when we start giving each other credit for being reasonable -- at least the same amount we give others, who, by the way, are viewed more reasonable simply because they value themselves.
Assimilate:
social sciences integrate: to integrate somebody into a larger group, so that differences are minimized or eliminated, or become integrated in this way.... Encarta ® World English Dictionary
vti phonetics sound like adjacent sound: to make a speech sound similar to an adjacent sound or to become similar to an adjacent sound....
Encarta ® World English Dictionary
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 986
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:06 pm: |
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TOnya: What elder Rustang described fits your definition. What people "should do", is questionable. The argument that people can do this and "value oneself" is also questionable. "Should" is relative, as is "valuing oneself". The choice is complete rejection of other culture and die or assimilate and live. There is of course a middle group...a strategic assimilation; this is what the Japanese did! But of course, they have their own distant and distinct island to do such, unlike the African American case.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 895
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 11:29 pm: |
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Yukio,
It was just brought to my attention that I mistakenly typed that Queen Latifah and L.L. aren't black to me.
That was a typo. I wish you had responded so I would have known that my jumbled thoughts made me mess up what I was writing.
I meant to say that I see them as my people, as black people.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 861
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 11:48 pm: |
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***Tonya: What elder Rustang described fits your definition.***
Please highlight an example from his post and without being TOO philosophical, which I believe you can, explain how the example fits my definition.
***What people "should do", is questionable. The argument that people can do this and "value oneself" is also questionable. "Should" is relative, as is "valuing oneself".***
Watch this:
Yeah, Homeslice.. cuz what people should question is "questionable." That's cuz "questionable" is "relative" as is "relative." The only thing I've said that ain't "relative" is that "relative" is "relative" cuz "relative" is "relative" is absolute.
Tonya |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 987
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 12:26 am: |
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Tonya:
Assimilate:
social sciences integrate: to integrate somebody into a larger group, so that differences are minimized or eliminated, or become integrated in this way...
Rustang:
"also needed to have the people I did business with, which were mostly white, be able to understand the words coming out of my mouth, so the accent and speech patterns I grew up with, which later became known as ebonics, had to go.I accomplished this by reading everything that I could get my hands on.Books are not written in ebonics.If a person reads regularly, they will almost have to start thinking in standard english, and the language one thinks in is the language one will speak.In just getting by day by day I suppose that I have swung towards the middle a little bit."
"Racism has really taken a beating on my block over the years.Once my neighbors figured out that I wasn't trying to sell drugs to their children,impregnate their women and burglarize their homes, we actually started getting along pretty well.But that took some time to accomplish.I had to be pleasant and articulate and, most importantly, I had to be seen busting up out of the house every morning and going to work.I guess that is assimilation, but I'm sure ok with it."
He assimilated: He learned standard english, different from what he grew up with (ebonics), in order to be understood at work and improve economic possibilities.
If he did not assimilate, it would have been more difficult for him to live the life that he presently lives.
It wasn't purely a question of skill, it seems to me, but his facility with standard english, being a model citizen, and skill...generally speaking, it is enough for whites to have job skills, sometimes they don't even have that!
The contradition, I believe, is that whites don't even have to meet their own standards!
By the way, you said that his comments were not assimilation because what he described "what everyone... should do." And I said this is questionable and relative! A person can disagree with Rustang's life choices and say that he should not have learned standard english because it is no better than "ebonics." And what he should have done was demand that whites learn ebonics, because this country claims to be a democracy and one dialect should not be standardized, for to do so is to be undemocratic and monocultural rather than multicultural, which is what this country proclaims.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 988
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 01:07 am: |
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hmmm....i just watched the ending of Spanglish...if u have a chance, watch it and you will see my point! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 862
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 03:28 am: |
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I understand your point but I still don't see how Rustang assimilated. What was it about his post that pointed to his differences? He needed to learn a skill; people from all backrounds and all walks of life do that every single day -- and humans learn new skills from the day they are born. Learning new skills is a human trait. What else? He needed to learn a language.... Ditto. Finally, last but not least, he needed to maintain a pleasant attitude. Well, all of us wasn't blessed that way, but from what we know of Rustang, for him that, too, is a human trait. And, when did he say he became a part of a group in order to minimize eliminated or integrated his differences. The things he did were all done only to earn money & take care of his family.
I think there is a big difference between getting along and assimilating or integrating. Sometimes I get along not because I have to or want to, but because it's the easy thing to do. But at no point do I become a part of the group. Even if I have to be a part of a group therefore having to get along, at no point have I ever (as an adult) felt the want nor need to be like the group. And, when I'm with a group that I want to be accepted into, I get along, yet still I don't feel the need nor want to be like it.
So getting along and assimilating/integrating are different things to me... and I don't see the act of assimilating in Rustang's post.
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 989
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 04:19 am: |
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you've said it; he needed to learn a language. What is more evident of difference than languages. Ask Africans how their language and customs both differentiate them and at the same time hold them together...within that answer, you will find a history of conflict and assimilation.
Anyways, elder Rustang said he grew up with ebonics (language 1) and that he had to "learn standard english" (language 2).
In the act of being part of a group, you are becoming like the group. Assimilation is a process. And, one doesn't have to completely assimilate. I speak, when need be, standard english. In that sense I have assimilated or adapted; I neither grew up listening nor hearing standard english...it is something that I work on, presently. Now, I am, as quiet as its kept, as "ghetto" as the rest....this is result of my culture and class...not poor but po'. But I code switch, though differently than the culturally black elite, whose switching is based upon racial difference rather than race and class. There is an old black elite; their values, standards, language, is the same as the white elite. The difference is that many have pride in their blackness and have no desire to be white, though they see culture as colorless...I am a bit suspicious of this, but I am certainly tainted by present and ancestors relationship with race and racism!
Anyways, I gone! I'm not hungry, but I'm tired...good night! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 864
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 05:57 pm: |
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But everyone "differs" in that way. There are white soccer mom teachers who are now having to learn spanish in order to keep their jobs. Are they assimilating or are they just trying to keep a job? For most people, learinig a new language is done to (a) be able to communicate, (b) keep a job, and (c) for enjoyment; therefore, learning a new language is something people do (voluntarily or involuntarily) ALL THE TIME. So, how is Rustang, or any black man who has to/chooses to learn a new language, become bilinqual, different from anyone else? Remember, the purpose of assimilating is to eliminate differences.... How is he different?
See.. it sounds, to me, that you guys are whinning about having to be bilingual and having to work hard. But that's not assimilation and it damn sure ain't racism. IT EFFECTS ALL RACES AND GENDERS. He had to learn a skill.. so does everyone else!!! He had to be pleasant.. Who doesn't? How is that racism?
Okay, You said that you choose to "code swith" (i.e. change your identity).... I understand that clearly -- women DECIDE whether to do that, ALLLL THE TIME. And if you're a black women, W-E-L-L, for some, code switching is the name of the game.... Is it due to sexism & racism? Of course!!! Our identities are unique (different) so feeling the need to change them in order to fit in, code switching, (i.e. ASSIMILATION) can be a result of racism/sexism. That I understand -- but is it sexisn/racism??? Absolutely not!!! Cuz bottom line: YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO IT. It's a personal choice therefore you have a choices. Actual racism & sexism leave practically no choices. And, since plenty of successful non-black women and blacks REFUSE (choose not to) code switch, that proves that it doesn't have to be done, it aint racism, and it's DEFINATELY not the only way out! Maybe, it makes some things a lot easier, in fact, I have no doubt that assimilation/code switching does. But that doesn't, at all, mean that it's the only reasonable alternative for black folks because those who refuse to do it are still being seen surviving, thriving, and some are living quite handsomely.... It can be done. You just have to work harder and not whine about it...
that's all.
Tonya |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 192
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 09:39 am: |
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Interesting discussion.To Yukio I would like to say that simply having the ability to perform a certain job is not enough for a white guy either.Let that white dude show up at work drunk or miss a day too many or antagonize an important client and he will be just as fired as the blackest man on the the planet.Racism exists to an astonishing degree in the workplace, but sometimes racism is used as means to avoid accepting resonsibility for one's own actions.A quick story to illustrate this.I used to work at a fairly large shop back in the 70s.There was another brother that worked there as a mechanic also.One day the owner brought in his wife's car for what should have been a 15 minute/15 dollar repair and, long story short, the brother ended up setting the car on fire.We pushed it out the door to prevent it from setting other cars or the building itself on fire and then started putting it out.The owner happened to glance out the window of his office and there's this huge fireball that used to be his wife's car.He went off and cussed the brother out as effectively as he knew how,(which was pretty effectively it turns out)but he didn't fire him.After things settled down,the brother mentioned to me how the owner talked to him like that because he didn't like black folks.I asked him if he was some kind of moron or something.The owner has to go tell his wife that her car got burnt up.He will then have to buy her a brand new new one if he ever wants to eat supper or sleep upstairs again.It has nothing to do with racism.This got me labeled as an uncle tom, of course.The point of this is that sometimes my perception of things is not as accurate as it could be.If I search for racism, I will find it, even if, in one particular case, none exists. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 992
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 01:00 pm: |
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Rustang: Point taken. And I agree to a degree. I have similar stories and have heard a few throughout the years.
I am, however, not a person who lives by ancecdotes, however interesting. I engage the individual experiences with the historical and structural factors. There were cases during slavery times where masters treated their slaves well. There were, as we know, black masters, as well. And, we also know that whites participated in the civil rights movement; that many black students are lazy; that many blacks exploit welfare; that some brothers are unemployed because they are, indeed, lazy; that some black people are criminals because they are... just criminals.
This is nice and well. I am not blind to black complicity, but this doesn't change where the reins of power lie. They lie with whites--as individuals, institutions, and as a culture.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 993
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 01:01 pm: |
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Rustang: Point taken. And I agree to a degree. I have similar stories and have heard a few throughout the years.
I am, however, not a person who lives by anecdotes, however interesting. I engage the individual experiences with the historical and structural factors. There were cases during slavery times where masters treated their slaves well. There were, as we know, black masters, as well. And, we also know that whites participated in the civil rights movement; that many black students are lazy; that many blacks exploit welfare; that some brothers are unemployed because they are, indeed, lazy; that some black people are criminals because they are... just criminals.
This is nice and well. I am not blind to black complicity, but this doesn't change where the reins of power lie. They lie with whites--as individuals, institutions, and as a culture.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 872
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 04:18 pm: |
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Yukio, I hope you are not upset with me. There's really no excuse for my insensitivity, but I do have one that you probably wouldn't understand. Anyway, I hope you're not done with me -- you and Rustang are two of the nicest posters we have -- I wouldn't want to alienate neither one of you. So, please accept my very sincere apology; and, if I'm coming across as being too melodramatic, which I think I might be, I apologize for that too.
Tonya
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 994
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:44 pm: |
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Tonya: Thank you! No apology necessary. You have neither offended nor alienated me. |
Rustang
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 193
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 06:47 pm: |
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To Yukio:I agree completely that the reins of power rest in the hands of whites.That is the world that we live in and a person would have to be an idiot to argue otherwise.It is, however, my opinion that cultures and institutions are comprised of a whole bunch of individuals, most of which have no grasp at all on the significance of their choices and actions.The small cadre of individuals that actually understand what is happening and have both motive and means to maintain the staus quo are the ones that we need to worry about.Cultural cross-contamination, for lack of a better term,is merely one spoke of the wheel.The objective seems to be having the entire world be a third-world in which everybody's a 'nigger'with the only exception being that tiny group making up the royalty class,which will be the only 'authentic' white folks left.I am still of the opinion that there will be very ugly times coming in the very near future.If things like 'street cred' are a priority in the mind of a person past the age of about nineteen, then that person will be useless as anything other than cannon fodder in the times to come.I, for one, do not condone using people as cannon fodder,so it seems to me that we need to attempt to jump-start a renaissance within the black community,shifting the priorities away from becoming thugs, pimps and strippers and towards becoming doctors,engineers, artists and craftsmen.The focus should be on teaching some viable parenting skills to the adults and commending children for academic excellence.I still think that something like the saturday schools utilized by the jewish folks would be a wonderful thing.The black community should take some responsibilty for educating the black community.If we wait for the white community to do it our children will be ignorant and broke until the day that they die.But, I could be wrong.
To Tonya:you don't have to worry about alienating me.Life is a team sport and we are all in this thing together, and we will stand or fall together.I can honestly say to you that I am on your side.I am on Yukio's side, Cynique's side, Kola's side, and everyone else's side that comes here. |
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