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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 465
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 06, 2005 - 10:40 pm: | 
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ColorLines
It's Personal: Race and Oprah
by Tammy Johnson
Tammy Johnson takes on the Queen of All Media.
Every true Oprah Winfrey fan knows the Diana Ross story. Glued to the family television set, a young Oprah marvels at the sight of a self-assured, brown-faced sister on the Ed Sullivan Show. "Look! There are colored people on the black and white! Maybe I too can work a microphone some day?"
Well, Oprah was the Diana of my childhood. She looked like the women in my family with her broad smile and bold brown presence. I recognized some of myself in her penchant for asking questions, stating her opinion, and needling the big shots with sharp one-liners. Donahue move over, there's a new sister in town!
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Oprah seems to take on the role of new age mammy for suburban soccer moms.
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More than 15 years later I'm still perched in front of the television watching Oprah. And I am not alone. Her 7 million daily viewers are also reading O Magazine, starting Oprah book clubs, watching the latest movie from Oprah Winfrey Presents, surfing her Oxygen website, and attending her sold-out seminars. Tagged "Queen of All Media," Winfrey's "crossover" appeal to the white public is matched by only a handful of celebrities of color, like Tiger Woods and Colin Powell.
So why do I have an uneasy feeling about this "little brown girl from Mississippi makes good" story?
Winfrey is acutely conscious of her career and image. She has parlayed her intelligence and acumen to become one of the most influential people in the country. But even Oprah cannot transcend the boundaries of race and power in America.
Oprah skillfully markets herself as the griot figure--one of the few legitimate roles Hollywood has for black people. Like Whoopie Goldberg, she plays the wise black matriarch who redeems white people from their misdeeds and foibles by helping them embrace love and realize their true, good selves. Oprah seems to take on the role of new-age mammy for suburban soccer moms. In the process, she safely reduces all things racial to the personal, sidestepping the hard questions of institutionalized racial oppression and white privilege.
The First of Many Questions
A moment of clarity struck me during her tribute to Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. "If you could heal racism, where would you start?" The stories had a recurring theme. During jury duty, a black woman confronts her mistrust of white people and befriends a white juror. A former neo-Nazi sees the error of his ways through the patience of caring foster parents--"they loved the hate right out of me." A white English teacher starts a Freedom Writers club in response to students' racial stereotyping. "A teacher, a mother, and even a stranger, these are the people who are living Dr. King's dream. This is how change happens, one moment, one person at a time."
Many of Oprah's shows follow the mainstream spin: that racism is mainly an issue between black and white people who just don't understand each other, a personal problem that must be addressed through the self-empowerment of people of color and white compassion.
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To receive Oprah's absolution, white viewers need only show a little compassion, perform a few acts of kindness (if only in their own minds), and all is right.
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Take her show, "Thomas Jefferson's Black and White Relatives Meet Each Other." The questions raised would have fit right in on a 60 Minutes or Primetime Live segment. Could such a power imbalance between Jefferson and his slave, Sally Hemings, yield real love? Why does the Monticello Association refuse to accept Jefferson's black descendants into the family gravesite? Note the brave solidarity between some of the modern-day descendants of Jefferson and Hemings. The show concludes with a lesson on reconciliation: descendants of slave and master in one family coming together on "I'm Sorry Day" in South Carolina.
Surely there is value in personal redemption. But why not discuss the broader institutional implications of Jefferson's actions? Why not ask how Jefferson could father children with his slave, then turn around and deny their personhood in the country's constitution? And how is this power dynamic replayed by modern-day white leaders who claim to have affinity for people of color yet deny their basic human rights? Aren't these questions worth investigating with a national audience?
A Voice in Politics
The Oprah factor loomed large during the 2000 presidential elections. With Gore and Bush polling at a statistical dead heat, appealing to Oprah's soccer-mom demographic became the priority of both campaigns. Oprah's interviews could either seal the deal or alienate candidates from key voters. Instead, she confined herself to softball questions--what is your all-time favorite song or childhood memory?--and missed the opportunity to delve into the hard issues affecting people of color.
Few would disagree with Gore's proposal to expand preschool. But why didn't Oprah challenge Clinton and Gore's eight-year failure to address rampant racial disparities in public education? "Mr. Gore, what will you do about the unacceptable dropout rates of young black and Latino students?" Instead Oprah suggests a system to teach parenting. Say what? We want a system--one that would rather imprison our children than educate them--to teach us how to be parents?
And just when I thought things could not get worse, Bush took center stage. Oprah began the Q&A by repeating Bush's tepid rendition of problems in education. There was no discussion about the unequal access to quality education in Texas, or how race plays into issues such as the death penalty or taxes. Bush was free to advance his message. "I've got an agenda that says we're going to elevate the individual in America, not empower the government." Decoded: I will protect the privileges of affluent America and to hell with the rest of you. Oprah seemed satisfied with the response.
An Interesting Contrast
Oprah is no stranger to activism. She was a vocal proponent of the National Child Protection Act, giving testimony before Congress and attending its signing in 1993. Whether it is the bucketfuls of cash that viewers pour into the Angel Network, or building houses across the country for Habitat for Humanity, we know that Oprah can make change happen.
Recently, she has joined the growing international movement against government-sanctioned violence against women. Oprah has promoted a number of women's rights organizations and causes and raised awareness about the struggles of women of color around the world. But her activism on these issues has translated into an all-too-familiar clash between race and gender. When it comes to issues that disproportionately affect women of color, white women are needed to legitimize it, while we are forced to take a secondary role in our own struggle.
In two shows highlighting these issues, Sanctioned Violence Against Women and Uniting Women of the World, who are the leading voices bringing the message about the plight of women from Africa and the Middle East? Jane Fonda, Calista Flockhart, and Madeleine Albright. Where are the women of color, like Alice Walker and Stormy Ogden, who have been working on these causes for years? Why aren't the leaders of grassroots organizations that fight these battles on a daily basis front-and-center on the Oprah Winfrey Show?
Oprah's challenge to her viewers is, "Now that you know, what will you do?" Stories of benevolent white women who raid brothels in Bombay, India, or support refugee women through charities, are interspersed with the shocked, tearful faces of audience members. She appeals to privileged white women to write a check, take in a child, or challenge the laws of a savage foreign country.
But what has Madeleine Albright done during her tenure as Secretary of State to stop U.S.-sanctioned violence against women? Why hasn't she stopped the U.S. from manufacturing and distributing the experimental chemical, Quinacrine, which causes the nonconsensual sterilization of women in over a dozen countries including Chile, China, Costa Rica, Egypt, and Pakistan? What is our government's role in endangering the lives of these women? Those questions don't get asked on the Oprah Winfrey Show.
Winfrey also seems to have a racial blind spot when it comes to government's impact on women of color in the U.S. "Making It On Minimum Wage" is a script in point. White women talk about their shock at finding themselves on welfare after a divorce. Barbara Ehrenreich and Katherine Newman give expert testimony about the inhumanity of trying to live on the minimum wage.
Once again, it is the questions that are not asked that leave me wondering. Race is a prominent factor in the welfare and wage debate. Why not expose that a drop in welfare rolls does not equate to a drop in poverty, especially for women of color? Why is it okay to discuss how public policy impacts class and gender issues, but not race?
Instead we get more pull-yourself-up-by-your-own-bootstraps stories. We are told about the perseverance of a black woman, Elizabeth. "A single mother of three, she now lives in her own house, is off welfare and working two jobs--but barely has time to spend with her three children." The concluding feature story is about Cindy, a white woman on welfare who makes good. "I managed to get an interview at the local radio station and I was determined to get the job, and I did!" The only thing missing is the chorus of "We Shall Overcome" in the background.
Oprah, again, misses an opportunity to tell a broader story about racial bias in the job market and welfare policies. Viewers are not told that white women are leaving welfare rolls at much higher rates than black or Latina women, indicating that whites are making a more successful transition into the labor force. Or that black women are more likely to be required to take pre-employment tests and undergo background checks and drug tests than their white counterparts.
Mother To Us All
To her credit, Oprah did try to stretch the racial boundaries with what she saw as her gift to America, the movie Beloved. Despite a full-court press by her PR machine, the enlistment of Oscar-winning director Jonathan Demme, and a talented cast, Beloved was greeted with mixed reviews and lackluster box office receipts. Longtime fans were not prepared for their daytime diva to confront them with slavery's lingering residue.
In the New York Daily News, media analyst Ken Smikle was on point in his explanation of why the film failed to mimic Oprah's television success. "Despite a relatively unknown cast and horrific subject matter, Schindler's List became a box-office smash because the story is well-known and has empathy among the general population. The slavery story is also well-known, but you have to create empathy, and that's tricky." The one time Oprah, the queen of empathy, waded into the waters of institutional racism, albeit wrapped in the personal story of one woman, she lost big time.
When Oprah speaks in the voice of concern and reconciliation, she is accepted. But when she depicts a woman so anguished by racism that she would rather kill her child than let slavery commodify her, Oprah crosses forbidden racial lines and her audience rejects the image outright.
In an attempt to turn a criticism of her maternal roles on its head, Oprah actually embraces the mammy image. In an interview with the online-zine Well Rounded Entertainment, she stated, "First of all, let me address the `mammy' thing. We are all here because somebody was maternal. I think that's about the best thing that we have going for ourselves." But in the American psyche, mothers, especially black mothers, have their place. White America wants its wounds cared for with a kiss of clemency, not the sterilizing truth of an institutional analysis of racism.
Oprah is surely mindful of what happens to black celebrities who transgress the racially-defined boundaries society creates for them. White America's rabid attacks on Paul Robeson, Muhammad Ali, and Eartha Kitt, who criticized America's involvement in wars and the treatment of people of color, no doubt loom large in the mind of Oprah and every other black public figure.
Final Questions
Oprah Winfrey acknowledges the dishonesty of colorblind theory: "You cannot live in this country and not see color. We all need to step out of the naiveté box and stop pretending it really doesn't exist. We need to understand that we live in a world that gives certain people privileges because of the color of their skin."
So why can't she acknowledge that white-skin privilege is linked to institutional racism? To receive Oprah's absolution, white viewers need only show a little compassion, perform a few acts of kindness (if only in their own minds), and all is right.
By failing to address the systematic and institutional impacts of racism, Oprah helps disappear the harsh realities of millions of people of color who are denied quality education and health care, or are shut out of high-wage jobs by racist government policies and corporate practices. The beautiful black woman from Kosciusko, Mississippi--for years the highest earning entertainer in the world--has yet to find it in her heart to focus the cameras on the true dimensions of our plight and struggles.
Oprah, when you're ready, I'll be there.
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Deebaby
Regular Poster
Username: Deebaby
Post Number: 43
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 02:45 am: |
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Excellent article.
Oprah definitely plays it "safe."
Perhaps one day she will determine she has enough millions, fame and fortune, is sick and tired of Mammying and flip her script.
BTW, Iyanla Vanzant, whose first couple of books I liked, went from spirituality and Black women's (and men's) issues to Mammying as well (definition used here) when she got her own show.
Unfortunately, her show didn't last long. Now she's coddling white women and helping them to deal with their issues on the show "Starting Over"
Like Dr. Phil, after appearing on Oprah a few times, she got her own show.
Who's surprised the Black woman's show flopped and the white man's is going strong and raking in the dough.
Has anybody been to Iyanla's website lately?
(I haven't)
Heard any speaking engagements of hers?
Is she still writing?
I ain't mad at her for cha-chinging with all those books saying the same thing, but I got turned off to her when I watched her show and later a couple of episodes of "Starting Over."
Matter of fact, lemme check out her website and see what's popping there and/or if anything has changed.
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Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 215
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 09:52 am: |
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Frankly I think folks who write those types of atrticles are jealous of Oprah. I aint mad at Oprah, she puts her money where her mouth is and if the author dont like what they see on Oprah; I say
"Get your own show".
LiLi |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1503
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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Libralind2
Was anything the writer of the article said untrue? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2685
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 02:25 pm: |
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When I think of Oprah, I keep having to remind myself that nobody's perfect. Yes, she is to be commended for her philanthropy and social consciousness, or do I think she really has an obligation to take a hard-core political stand on her show. My criticism of Oprah comes from a different dynamic. Oprah, as so many people of power do, seems to have surrounded herself with lackeys who humbly co-exist with her in a world according to Oprah, a sphere where what Oprah says is the gospel. Not being a bona fide intellectual, she compensates for this by simply imposing her will on any one who disagrees with her entrenched opinions, and pointedly ignores any valid rebuttals to her pontificating. As a result, her show is simply a showcase for her self-styled omniscience. She dominates her interviews, inteprets everything her guests say, probes into their personal lives, all the while injecting her pat little formulas for success into her lectures, scolding those who don't see things the way she does. And in keeping with being a media goddess, she anoints those who fawn over her, and picks and chooses who she will bestow her favors on, showing a preference for the white people who comprise her largest constituency. So what's wrong with this picture? Nothing really. Why doesn't Oprah inspire my adulation? Because I think she is the product of her immense wealth; money enables a person to be a do-gooder and sharing a little bit of it with others does not a saint make. To me, Oprah is just an ordinary woman who got an extraordinary break in life. That fact that she is flawed is her most human characteristic |
Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 219
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 09:36 pm: |
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Umm Chris..? What is your point..? You cant goad me into a debate about Oprah. I love Oprah, who she is the person. Im sure some of what she does is dictated by the billions she brings in but this sistah aint hating..
LiLi |
Nels
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Nels
Post Number: 106
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 03:03 am: |
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Let Oprah find a really "bbbblack" version of her beau Steadman Graham, and then everyone might really see her true colors. Is she colorstruck? Likely. Does it affect hear personal (and [not] business) judgment and social behavior? Probably. Will she ever see beyond the pained faces of her mostly white constituency. Probably not. |
Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 220
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 09, 2005 - 09:54 am: |
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Sex Offender Nabbed After Oprah Show
FARGO, N.D. (Oct. 7) - The same week Oprah Winfrey began devoting time on her show to tracking down sex offenders, she has a collar to show for it.
William C. Davis, 33, of Wadesville, Ind., was arrested in Fargo on Thursday, two days after the talk-show host broadcast his face and offered $100,000 for information leading to his capture.
Jean Rosenthal of Moorhead, Minn., recognized Davis as "Mark," a neighbor of her friend Karie Miller. She called Miller on Wednesday, and the 29-year-old Fargo deli worker discovered the man's identity Thursday morning on a Web site.
"His picture came up and I started shaking so bad, I couldn't hold my coffee," Miller told The Forum of Fargo in Friday editions.
Davis, who was on the FBI's Most Wanted Fugitives list, was one of several fugitive sex offenders shown on Winfrey's program Tuesday. The reward, offered by her production company, applies to fugitives presented on the show and on www.oprah.com.
Davis faces felony charges of molesting three Evansville, Ind.-area boys last year and failing to register as a sex offender. He was convicted of child molestation in 1992.
Davis, arrested by FBI agents, was in jail, awaiting an extradition hearing to return to Indiana.
Karie Miller was in shock after learning of her neighbor's background. She had helped care for him since he broke his leg in a car accident a few weeks ago.
"I've been cooking for him; I've been doing his laundry," she said.
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Ntfs_encryption
Newbie Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 07:23 pm: |
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Let Oprah find a really "bbbblack" version of "her beau Steadman Graham, and then everyone might really see her true colors. Is she colorstruck? Likely.
### What evidence to have to prove that? And if she is, why would you personally care?
The criteria people choose for people they are attracted to is highly individual and personal. Some men like women with big butts while others prefer petite or slim women. Some women prefer very tall men while others have no height perquisite. There are people who prefer blondes while others prefer dark hair or red hair. Why should Oprah be any different? Where is it written that you must like everyone regard less of what they look like? That simply does not exist. Personal preference is something that cannot be regulated since it is something none of us can really control. I know there are certain physical characteristics a woman may have that I am immediately attracted to. I’m certainly not going to apologize for it.
Does it affect hear personal (and [not] business) judgment and social behavior? Probably.
### How so? Once again, I assume you have some empirical researched data to substantiate your claim. I’d like for you to post it. I’m very curious.
Will she ever see beyond the pained faces of her mostly white constituency. Probably not.
### "See beyond the pained faces of her mostly white constituency"? Duhhhhh? What is your point? I don’t watch her show because I think the general guests she has are boring, silly and consists primarily of so called media stars. And she rarely ever discusses anything that I’m interested in. But regardless, I feel she has every right to set the agenda of her show based on the success of her audience ratings. It’s business. If you have an issue with her, do like I do and turn the channel. Petty accusations and cheap race baiting is meaningless and generated by those who seem to take cynical glee at carping at blacks that do not meet their “personal” political issues and concerns.
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Blaklioness
Newbie Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 08:09 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption:
Preferences are FOSTERED by the social environment in which you live; so, by and large, they CAN be controlled. I, for one, believe they are total bullshit. Respecting an image that's not your own is one thing; WORSHIPPING that image is another. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 604
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 08:26 pm: |
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Is Oprah color-struck?
I think so. Not only because of her dating Steadman , but I agree with Nels, that's one of the biggest things that points to her being color-struct. Another thing is the way she wears her make-up. When she takes it off, her skin is about five shades darker, (she's naturally my complxion yet she wears a color that would easily fit someone like Nia Long) her nose is much broader and her lips are a lot fuller. That, the fact that she kisses up to whites (mammy), and because she chose someone like Steadman, all point to her being color-struck.
By the way, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone like Steadman Graham would not have chosen to be with someone like Oprah unless she was indeed Oprah Winfrey. (And, yes, when he met her she was on her way.)
Tonya |
Ntfs_encryption
Newbie Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 04:02 pm: |
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Preferences are FOSTERED by the social environment in which you live; so, by and large, they CAN be controlled.
### That may or may not be true. The preferences many people have are related to nothing more than personal taste. It has nothing to do with society or politics. But to be fair to your assessment, yes, I’m sure there are situations when a particular image is projected and promoted via the media or social/cultural standards. So yes, it can have an impact on an individuals perception. I don’t think many people will argue this particular point. But there are also times when an individual may have a affinity for certain characteristics of the opposite sex(or the same sex –depends on your orientation) that they find very appealing and attractive. Whether it is physical or non-physical. To suggest every individuals personal preferences are based on some abstract social environmental determinant, is ludicrous. If that were the case, we all would be attracted to nearly the same thing. Reality simply does not bear that out.
I, for one, believe they are total bullshit.
### I have no idea what you mean. What is “total bullshit”? The fact that some men are attracted to tall buxom women while other men like small petite small women? Women who like bodybuilder types versus women who like slim athletic physiques? Long hair versus shaven? Long straight hair, short natural, curly hair, dreads or extensions? Intellectual, basic or bad boy types? What specifically is busllshit and what exactly is “exceptable” to you?
Respecting an image that's not your own is one thing; WORSHIPPING that image is another.
### Once again, I have no idea what you mean. Exactly what do you mean by "worshipping an image"? And who determines what should be "acceptable personal standards" for attraction and what should not? Who or whom sets these standards? And what exactly do they mean? And finally, when does individual taste and preference trump social/political determinates as you have suggested? Details please.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 665
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 04:20 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption is just another high yellow or WHITE person....who is understandably defensive.
And watch him/her come back claiming (as BabyGirl did) that she's dark chocolate with an afro.
LOL!!!!!
But it's obvious that Encryption is in denial like most Black people are.
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Blaklioness
Newbie Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 05:08 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption:
My point is pretty basic...if the image ain't yours (more or less), then perceiving it as more attractive or superior than your own is abnormal. I'm not necessarily talking body TYPES here because even people within the same racial groups don't necessarily have the same physiques; so in THAT sense, "preferences" may not necessarily be out of the ordinary. What I'm talking about is my ability as a Black woman to look at a Black man and have love for that image as a reflection of my own; I'm not saying that a particular Black man and I would be compatible simply because we're Black. Neither am I saying that people don't have a right to make a choice. But, many MANY people are in denial about the level of psychological damage that was levied on the Black race as a result of large scale slavery and colonialism. Instead of people garnering the courage to face that, so that healing can begin, we choose to cop out by saying that our "worship" of the nonblack image at the expense of our own is a simple matter of "preference" or "humanism." The reality is, if I perceive a Black man as unappealing BECAUSE of his African features, and I have those same basic features, how could my rejection of him NOT be a reflection of what I think of myself? Let the truth be told. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 671
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 06:40 pm: |
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This says it all:
if the image ain't yours (more or less), then perceiving it as more attractive or superior than your own is abnormal.
--Blaklioness
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Ntfs_encryption
Newbie Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 06:49 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption is just another high yellow or WHITE person....who is understandably defensive.
### Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. But regardless, skin color is independent of faulty and flawed thinking. Stick to the facts and leave the petty race baiting outside.
And watch him/her come back claiming (as BabyGirl did) that she's dark chocolate with an afro.
### Nope. Not gonna do that. There is no need to emphasize ones skin color or hair style. Sticking to the facts and the issues at hand is more meaningful. The color of my skin is superfluous and has no bearing on our differences.
But it's obvious that Encryption is in denial like most Black people are.
### I think you are the one in denial my dear. I see you could not answer any of the questions I posed nor could you give an intelligent rebuttal. It is very obvious your emotional fatuous response is void of anything of substance. What gives you the authority or the information to conclude that I (like most black people) are in denial? Why is this? Because we may disagree with you? And denial of what?
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Blaklioness
Newbie Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 08:11 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption:
I'm not quite sure who you're addressing, but I'm pretty sure you're not as daft as you come across. The pseudo intellectual angle doesn't work on me. Exactly which of your questions did I NOT address in my last post? You are capable of understanding summarizations are you not? Either you are of the privileged class or you need to become acquainted with the Stockholm Syndrome. |
Ntfs_encryption
Newbie Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 08:12 pm: |
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My point is pretty basic...if the image ain't yours (more or less), then perceiving it as more attractive or superior than your own is abnormal.
### And what proof do you have to support that being attracted to someone who does not share your physical appearance is “abnormal” or somehow “pathological”? How did you come to that conclusion? Is this thinking based on some well documented research that can be substantiated? Or is it your personal opinion? There is a difference.
I'm not necessarily talking body TYPES here because even people within the same racial groups don't necessarily have the same physiques; so in THAT sense, "preferences" may not necessarily be out of the ordinary.
What I'm talking about is my ability as a Black woman to look at a Black man and have love for that image as a reflection of my own; I'm not saying that a particular Black man and I would be compatible simply because we're Black.
### I agree. But why does being attracted to someone who does not have the same skin color (or race)suggest that the person is somehow damaged or “abnormal”? Again, do you have researched data that clearly supports the idea that a person is “abnormal” because they are attracted to someone who do does not have the same skin color or race as they do?
But, many MANY people are in denial about the level of psychological damage that was levied on the Black race as a result of large scale slavery and colonialism.
### Why would a person have to deny anything? I’m not denying that racism has not had a profound impact on black Americans (or black people any where else in the world). It would be foolish of me to do so. But I’m not sure what you mean when you assert black people are in “denial” because of a person they date or attracted to.
Instead of people garnering the courage to face that, so that healing can begin, we choose to cop out by saying that our "worship" of the nonblack image at the expense of our own is a simple matter of "preference" or "humanism."
### Interesting point and well taken. However, it depends on how you define “worship”. If some how an individual becomes obsessed with emulating someone or something to the extent where they are incapable of recognizing or accepting their own genetics, to the point where they loath themselves or openly deny what is obvious, then yes, I would say there could be a problem (i.e. Michael Jackson).
But if a person finds something attractive about another person who may not necessarily share a similar genetic heritage, that in itself does not denote some form of deep rooted pathology or abnormality as you have suggested. Again, if you have aboveboard research to support this, I would be very interested in seeing it.
The reality is, if I perceive a Black man as unappealing BECAUSE of his African features, and I have those same basic features, how could my rejection of him NOT be a reflection of what I think of myself?
### Good point. But how many black women openly reject black men simply because “the man is black and for no other reason”? I suspect such a number would extremely small. Small to the point where such numbers have no significant impact or influence on the daily lives of black people as a group. I’ve personally never met a black woman who thought like that although I’m sure they exist. So why would you or I even care?
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Ntfs_encryption
Newbie Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 08:23 pm: |
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I'm not quite sure who you're addressing, but I'm pretty sure you're not as daft as you come across. The pseudo intellectual angle doesn't work on me.
### There is no pseudo intellectual spin here. Just very basic questions and commentary. Nothing more.
Exactly which of your questions did I NOT address in my last post? You are capable of understanding summarizations are you not?
### You made some statements that I specifically asked you to respond to. You did not. Please read the post again and reference the questions I asked. That’s all.
Either you are of the privileged class…..
### Nice try, but not hardly. I have no special privileges nor am I a member of a wealthy class. I have no interest nor ambitions to be a member of the privileged class as you have suggested. Sorry.
……or you need to become acquainted with the Stockholm Syndrome.
### Ha! Ha! Ha! Again, that’s funny. But I’ll keep that in mind.
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Blaklioness
Newbie Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 09:10 pm: |
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Nfts_encryption:
There is research out there that discusses the issue. The vast majority of that research comes from those who challenge the status quo, so often, people who are in denial will not accept it. Research people like Dr. Frances Cress Welsing (Yes, she is a REAL certified psychiatric doctor who has been researching and dealing with the effects of white supremacy on Black minds for over three decades.), Dr. Jewel Pookrum (Yes, she's another REAL certified medical doctor who has been working on challenging the destructive thought patterns of Blacks---especially Black women.), and Dr. Na'im Akbar (Yes, he's another REAL certified psychologist who has worked on changing the damage caused by oppression.) These are a very few of the people I can name who have worked and researched tirelessly to help us get our crazy asses off the plantation over 150 years AFTER the chains were taken off. Again, do some research into the Stockholm Syndrome---the research that provides information into how traumas often lead the oppressed to become identified with the oppressor. Probably, what you need to be aware of is that MOST psychiatric/psychological literature will not identify the thought patterns of Black people as being sick because to abnormalize the behavior would be to the detriment of the established white supremacy system...and we can't have that now can we?
The physical attraction to nonblacks is generally perceived VERY differently by Blacks...so you don't just have people looking at some individual of a different race and thinking that person's cute. In 2005, Black people have operational---OPERATIONAL definitions of "good" hair and "bad" hair. In case you don't know what that means, in Black American slave culture, "good" hair is perceived as any grade or texture of hair that is as close as possible to European hair, and "bad" hair is any grade or texture of hair that very closely resembles African or Black hair. In 2005, you have Blacks who select a mate based solely on the potential of that mate to lighten (i.e. Europeanize) their offspring. (Incidentally, this is my concept of "worship." Remember the Stockholm Syndrome?) These people all claim they're normal. I say they're not, as I don't need a PhD to identify self-destructive behavior.
Be aware that I'm not just talking about Black women. That example was taken from my own perspective as a Black woman. Racism has effected Black men and women equally; however, because of gender, it has tended to impact us differently. Frequently (and generally), for Black men it's in who they tend to select as a mate; for Black women it's in how we tend to measure ourselves against a nonblack standard of beauty.
It's clear why you wouldn't care, but why wouldn't I? Be aware that the concept of privilege means that "the privileged" generally engages in behaviors that work against "the underprivileged." When someone works overtime to deprive me of my God-given rights of dignity and self-respect, I take that very seriously. Very seriously. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 672
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 09:30 pm: |
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I love you, BlakLioness. 
Girl, you be breaking it DOWN!
LOL
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Blaklioness
Newbie Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
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Ok Kola Boof...remember what I told you...hang in there girl, hang in there! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2814
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 12:41 am: |
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Hang in there,ntfs. You can always depend on color being injected into the discussion when you engage people of Kola's persuasion and this automatically renders their opinions subjective and - suspect. |
Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 225
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
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Ya'll kill me with all this color bull. Oprah likes Stead in spite of the fact he is "yellow" not becuase of it, in MY VIEW. Her best friend (for all you color struck folks) is the same color as she is. She has BLACK and WHITE dogs..
Oh gawd..Im caught up..let me get out this conversation before Kola calls me a name
LiLi
going to bed |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 717
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 22, 2005 - 11:21 pm: |
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Hey Lili,
I NEVER once commented on this thread or on Oprah's choice.
I do recall that 2 previous boyfriends of OPRAH's were on her show once (anybody else remember?) and they were both the same color as Oprah, slightly darker.
I also recall Oprah swooning over Danny Glover and Jaime Foxx, both on her show. And she wasn't kidding. She was HOT for those men.
Last up, though. Oprah has ADMITTED on her show a couple of times that she has color issues and has spent her life working on them, because she knows it's wrong. Her dark mother favored her lightskinned sister and neglected Oprah.
ALEK WEK's appearance on her show was of those times when Oprah talked about her own colorism.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 729
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:43 am: |
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Oprah--colorstruck because Stedman is "yellow"?!!!! That's some of the stupidest shyt I've read! I guess some are so hypersensitive that they can't even look at two, healthy, productive members of society and assume the better instead of the worse! Incredible!
If Oprah is colorstruck what does that make Stedman?
Lastly, Oprah discusses issues that pertain to the human experience. She doesn't play the "mammy" role and I don't think whites (in general) think of her like that. Although I would (also) like to hear her bring more pressing issues to the table, she's not obligated to discuss certain topics just because of her social status. When all is said and done she (definitely) puts her money where her mouth is (when she is passionate about a social issue). This is a capitalistic system. Individuals who disagree with her always have the opportunity to start their own show and boycott the media with their finances--two powerful tools.
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Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 234
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 12:09 pm: |
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LiLi seeking clarification, Kola, I see a few posts above with your name so Im really confused..hep a sistah. Your only making comments to the person and not on the topic..? I apoligize in advance if I made a mistake. Actually, the comment was made in jest. I dont think you would call me a name for stating my view.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 661
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 02:02 pm: |
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EAT MY ASS - BITCHES. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 722
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 02:20 pm: |
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Hi Lili,
Yeah. I was only making comments to people; never spoke on the issue of the thread.
Sorry. LOL
But I'm an OPRAH fan, so yikes.
But she has admitted that she has, for most of her life, believed that "light skin" is better---prettier, etc. As a middle aged woman, she is starting to change herself.
Unlike Black Males---black females are more likely to acknowledge these traits and not try to defend/make excuses....but change themselves.
Black men go into dramatic denials and make outrageous excuses...and then people like MOON help them to do that. Just as she just tried to scoop OPRAH out of it---ignoring the fact that OPRAH has on more than one occasion acknowledged this.
I guess Moon missed the episodes where OPRAH was talking about why she wore "green eyes" for so many years----and then STOPPED, because she realized she had a problem.
Another episode was when Alek Wek was on and she mentioned that if Alek has existed when she was a little girl--she might have accepted her own color better.
Oprah's mother neglected her (Oprah's dad raised her) and doted on her high yellow sister.
Moon, the typical self-absorbed and patronizing White woman, missed all this.
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Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 237
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 02:41 pm: |
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Hi Kola thanks for the clarification as I aint trying to get on your bad side. ::big grin:: I agree with your comments 100% and I forgot about that "green-eyed" thang as well. LOL
Umm and who is Tonya talking to..? :::gasp::: PRAYING I aint said nofing to offend. I aint into freaky stuff like dat but if anyone is, pick up "Ice Cream For Freaks" Dejon ::zipping lips::
LiLi |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2858
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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Oprah wears make up to lighten up her dark skin color and she also wears hair extensions and has a perm. Nothing wrong with all of this, but she is hardly a poster girl for authentic blackness. |
Libralind2
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 241
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 03:55 pm: |
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I would add, the lighter make up looks "better" on camera..? Im just saying. One day I noticed she didnt have on a lot of make up. Thinking about it, it was the day Ricky Martin was on.
LiLi |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2863
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 23, 2005 - 10:37 pm: |
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Yes, everybody on TV wears make-up so that the camera will show them in their best light. But Oprah also wears make-up that lightens her skin in public. But who cares? Oprah is a very rich and powerful woman so she can be a mammy and a know-it-all, and a phony and anything else she wants to be and tell the world to kiss her ass in the process. |
Ntfs_encryption
Newbie Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 09:09 am: |
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I apologize for this very late response but my server was down for a few days. I’m back online again.
__________________________________________________________________
There is research out there that discusses the issue. The vast majority of that research comes from those who challenge the status quo, so often, people who are in denial will not accept it.
### What is there to deny? I’m not sure what you mean. Because someone does not agree with a particular point of view, why must they be in denial? Too often this convenient cliché is used to dismiss people who do not agree or accept someone’s perspective.
Research people like Dr. Frances Cress Welsing (Yes, she is a REAL certified psychiatric doctor who has been researching and dealing with the effects of white supremacy on Black minds for over three decades.),….
### I am very familiar with Dr. Welsing for more than 20 years and I dismissed her comical but tragic brand of fallacious racist mumbo jumbo theories long time ago. The woman is a total hack. I have no problems with anyone who makes the assertion that black people have been affected in some degree or another by generations of institutional racism. I would be dishonest or stupid (or both) to disagree with such a fact.
Some of Welsing's observations about the symbol structure connected to white supremacy are thought-provoking but totally suspect. Her writings concerning white supremacy are a concoction of strange paranoid fake science mumble jumble. Welsing seems obsessed with a mythic origin story of white people. She professes that whites are genetic "albino mutants" with "defective skins" (her words –not mine). In her book (The Isis Papers) she argues that white skin is a "disease" and suggests that white people are evil simply because they're white.
In addition to railing and demonizing people on the basis of their skin color, she is also homophobic, claiming it to be "a strategy for destroying Black people". I’m not advocating gay rights but homophobia is just another form of racism and discrimination.
She tries to decode the world according to her twisted conspiracy paranoia. Welsing even sees a sinister significance in the fact that "God" spelled backwards is "dog". Duhhhhhh???? Another bizarre assessment she asserts is white people "have great difficulty in absorbing energy data from the universe at multiple frequencies deep energy levels" (again –her words, not mine). Now that sounds academically and scientifically sound don’t you think?
Although you may believe that Dr. Welsing is a brilliant race theorist and scholar, I’m probably going to provoke you even further because I have thoroughly dismissed her belief that the white race is a spawn of “genetic albinos” that were driven out of Africa by its blacks inhabitants. I doubt very seriously if you will find any accredited geneticists, historians, anthropologists or medical scientists that will give any credence to her strange and nefarious mutterings about the origin of the white race.
Perhaps she borrowed some of her ideas from the NOI belief that whites are the results of a “genetic experiment” by Dr. Yackub!
Her twisted sexual theories go as far as suggesting that the Washington monument represents white supremacy while some of our sports paraphernalia represents white inferiority. Welsing says that the large balls used in some sports are dark and represent black sexual superiority (i.e. footballs, bowling balls, basket balls, etc). She also asserts that the small balls used in some sports are white and represent white sexual inferiority (i.e. ping pong balls, golf balls, baseballs, etc). I could on and on but I think this is enough. Dr. Welsing’s theories of race are nothing short of
racist neo-Nazi propaganda in blackface.
If you are interested in the history of black Americans or the effects of racism, there are many brilliant writers and scholars, both black and white, who can give you a clear and accurate account of the history of racism and how it has impacted black people. Henry Louis Gates or John Hope Franklin, two of the most distinguished scholars in the field of black American history, certainly don’t subscribe to Welsing's silly racist historical views.
The truth is black Africans and their American descendants were very instrumental in the building of the nation that has become the United States. Up until recently, black Americans were not given any acknowledgement or credit by a society that is still maintains an uneven playing field. No one in their right mind (unless you are a conservative republican) would attempt to dismiss or debate the negative impact of institutional racism. I suggest you refrain from referencing racist Afrocentric crack pots and hacks to bolster your argument.
Dr. Jewel Pookrum (Yes, she's another REAL certified medical doctor who has been working on challenging the destructive…….. and Dr. Na'im Akbar (Yes, he's another REAL certified psychologist………… These are a very few of the people I can name who have worked and researched tirelessly to help us get our crazy asses off the plantation over 150 years AFTER the chains were taken off.
### Ok. Again, I have no issues with anyone who attempts to explain or bring to light the destructive nature of racism. But I am at odds with anyone who advocates silly and racist theories with the intent of “make me feel good” racist propaganda designed to absolve people of personal responsibility and accountability. Such individuals actually work to keep you on a plantation. A plantation that is mired in a spurious psychology of victimization and entitlement.
Again, do some research into the Stockholm Syndrome---the research that provides information into how traumas often lead the oppressed to become identified with the oppressor. Probably, what you need to be aware of is that MOST psychiatric/psychological literature will not identify the thought patterns of Black people as being sick because to abnormalize the behavior would be to the detriment of the established white supremacy system...and we can't have that now can we?
### I’m very familiar with the Stockholm Syndrome. Four Swedes were held in a bank vault for six days in 1973 during a robbery. They became attached and identified with their captors. A phenomenon that was later dubbed the Stockholm Syndrome. Psychologists have attempted to explain this behavior of why the abused bond to their abusers as a means to endure violence. But I think you are stretching it when you suggest black people have identified with whites who have abused them through racial discrimination and violence. Blacks have always resented and loathed the horrendous treatment they have received from American racism. Yes, there is a plethora of survival skills and behavior blacks have adopted to survive racism but I seriously doubt that American blacks as a group, have capitulated to white racism. Black have always resisted and continue to do so.
The physical attraction to nonblacks is generally perceived VERY differently by Blacks...so you don't just have people looking at some individual of a different race and thinking that person's cute.
### And how do you know that? Are you speaking for yourself or black people as a group? There is a difference. I disagree. I see this kind of thing all the time.
In 2005, Black people have operational---OPERATIONAL definitions of "good" hair and "bad" hair. In case you don't know what that means, in Black American slave culture, "good" hair is perceived as any grade or texture of hair that is as close as possible to European hair, and "bad" hair is any grade or texture of hair that very closely resembles African or Black hair.
### I agree. Personally, I have always detested such a self degrading and embarrassingly mindless epithets as “good hair” and “bad hair”. It is a term I never pass up the opportunity to confront. True, some hair is much more manageable than other types of hair. This is a physical fact that cannot be politicized. But to refer to it in simple minded terms like good and bad is ridiculous.
In 2005, you have Blacks who select a mate based solely on the potential of that mate to lighten (i.e. Europeanize) their offspring. (Incidentally, this is my concept of "worship." Remember the Stockholm Syndrome?) These people all claim they're normal. I say they're not, as I don't need a PhD to identify self-destructive behavior.
### Again, you and I do not agree. Perhaps you have some well researched statistics or scholarly information to support your assertion that black people pick non-black mates with the conscious intent of producing offspring that are lighter than they are. To be fair, I’m sure there have been instances when such a decision was made. But to generalize that black people who select non-black mates do so with the conscious intent of producing lighter offspring is ludicrous and I challenge you to produce researched information that supports this claim.
For the record, I have heard this before and I asked six different blacks I personally know who have non-black mates if they had considered the color of their offspring. EACH ONE OF THEM WERE PUZZLED AT THE NATURE OF THE QUESTION AND DISMISSED IT. They stated personal reasons for attraction and interest. Skin color was not one of them.
Sorry, but I don’t think your belief has any solid general application or validity. None of the blacks (that I talked to) were being abused or subjected to false imprisonment by their non-black mates. So the Stockholm Syndrome does not apply.And I’m sure most blacks who have non-black mates are not abused or held captive (at least in America) either. Thus the Stockholm Syndrome is irrelevant.
Be aware that I'm not just talking about Black women. That example was taken from my own perspective as a Black woman. Racism has effected Black men and women equally; however, because of gender, it has tended to impact us differently.
### I agree with your comment. I readily recognize black women face a dual sword of discrimination for being black and being female. Racism and sexism has always been (and continues to be) a barrier for black women.
Frequently (and generally), for Black men it's in who they tend to select as a mate;
### Not sure what you mean. I have an idea but I would prefer that you elaborate. Details please….
…..for Black women it's in how we tend to measure ourselves against a nonblack standard of beauty.
### Yes, unfortunately this is true. Many black women are continually comparing themselves to other women who are non-black. That is a mistake that only black women can rectify. None else can do it for them.
It's clear why you wouldn't care, but why wouldn't I?
### Well, why would you? What is it that you fighting against? You have no control over who someone else dates or becomes involved with. And why is it your business? Why can’t you be satisfied with your personal own life? And what crusade are you attempting to establish? Demonizing people who make individual decisions about their own lives that you do not personally agree with?
Be aware that the concept of privilege means that "the privileged" generally engages in behaviors that work against "the underprivileged."
### Uhhhhhh…..ok. That’s a given.
When someone works overtime to deprive me of my God-given rights of dignity and self-respect, I take that very seriously. Very seriously.
### Who specifically is working to deprive you of your dignity? And how can someone deprive you of your self esteem and dignity unless you let them? All the racism and discrimination American could muster could not deprive Josephine Baker, Paul Robeson, Marion Anderson, William Grant Still, Fannie Lou Hammer, Benjamin Davis Jr. or Dorothy Height of their dignity and self esteem. Why would you allow it to happen to you? There are many great black Americans who fought bravely with determined resilience against racism and fallacious notions of racial inferiority that you should emulate. Focus on your abilities and accomplishments and leave the hating and bitterness to those who have nothing better to do than criticize others for what they are doing in their personal lives. E’nuff said.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2866
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 09:37 am: |
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Go 'head on, ntfs! I'm so glad there are posters like you around who can break things down and cite references and alternative studies when refuting an argument. Now all I have to do is say, "I agree." Of course others will go ballistic and attack you, and in response to them, all I have to say is: "I disagree". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2867
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 10:10 am: |
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Well now, Moonie, I represent a different phase of the full moon when it comes to Oprah. You confidently state that she is not a "Mammy" and white folks don't think of her as one! In my opinion, Orpah is, to borrow a phrase from Tonya, a "modern-day Mammy figure." She's buxom and brown with a bright smile and a pleasant apple-cheek face and relishes the role of nurturing her guests with her home-spun advice and counsel. Of course, white people don't consciously regard her as a mammy figure; but they fall under her sway because she uplifts them with the feel-good comfort zone she provides, a scenario that harks straight back to slavery days. And I always wink-wink at the claim of Oprah putting her money where her mouth is. As a billionaire, she can well afford to be generous, especially since her accountants can write off her charitable donations as tax deductions. I know I sound like an Oprah basher, but it's just that I resist the idea of idolizing the rich and famous. |
Blaklioness
Regular Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 01:02 pm: |
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Ntfs__encryption:
Your responses are pretty typical of ANY person who wishes the white supremacy establishment to go unquestioned, and believe me---I understand. Research isn't as objective as you imply, and given that, OBSERVATIONAL research is just as good as any. You indicate that institutional racism does have an impact, but you don't indicate WHAT impact? You don't agree with my assertions, but what are yours?...and remember, you must provide hard data to back them up. And this time...please try not to let it take you a week ;)
You choose Eurocentric "crackpots" like Henry Louis Gates (a man with an established history of being involved with nonblack women) who you consider "safe" and decide with certain arrogance that these are the authorities to whom I should be referring. Meanwhile, you adamantly dismiss the authorities I referenced but failed to produce any UNDEBATABLE counter research with which to refute it. You have a problem with Welsing...that's fine. Her ideas on the origins of the white race are indeed controversial, but be aware that she herself has often described some of them as theories. Again, however, can YOU disprove them?? Correct me if I'm wrong---didn't "accredited" scholar Shockley try??
So you'll be aware, I have walked in Black female skin ALL of my life. Therefore, I am ACCUTELY aware of the culture of Black people in this country. The terms "good" hair and "bad" hair are actively used by African American people TODAY---that is NOT some simplistic concept I pulled out of my ass. Have you ever thought about why the VAST majority of Black women in this country perm their hair---I mean the REAL reason? MOST Black women will feed you the 'preference/style' rhetoric, and for a very few, this may actually be true. That is not the reality of the masses, because MOST identify with the image of the oppressor or some variation thereof. If you want scientific-mathematical proof, gather statistics on what percentage of them will go WITHOUT those perms for a given period of time. If you want further scientific-mathematical insight into why given choices are made, I propose you use a couple of techniques I was taught about in a series of school psychology courses---the interview and the aforementioned observation.
My comments about Black men and their choice of mates is linked to what I noted about Black women and our self-image in regards to nonblack icons of beauty. Since you conceed that we do live in a society that is both racist and sexist, then you must realize that the emphasis on looks is centered around women; this is primarily why men tend to get away with certain physique issues like weight that women will NOT escape. It doesn't mean that men are above the physical issue, it just means they tend to center it around women---not themselves. I hope that's clear.
You indicated that you see Black people perceiving other races of people as attractive ALL the time. Does this not prove my point? You see it ALL the time, but WHY?? You picked six--count them SIX--black people out of thousands who mate/date/marry interracially, and all of them swear that color wasn't an issue. What scientific proof do you have that they were telling the truth? I mean O.J. Simpson would probably tell you that he doesn't have a problem with Black women either---but the evidence of that remains unseen. Further, mathematically and scientifically, given that we live in a racist society, where, according to the musings of a wise man, "..Institutional racism does have an impact...," what is the likelihood of that? Incidentally, how many Black people do you know??
What generally happens when people are engaged in a cycle of abuse or oppression for extended periods of time? Does not the RESEARCH frequently tell us that the cycle is often continued? What happens to a child who is repeatedly physically and sexually abused over the course of their development? Are not the statistics in favor of that adult child spreading those abuse values to his or her own children if no treatment is sought? Black people went through traumas greater than we may ever know on those plantations and under colonialism because you don't make a slave simply by putting chains on their limbs, you must put them on their minds. We have been IN those situations a lot longer than we have been out of them. Black people in this country have done NOTHING as a whole to deal with those psychological scars because the pain of it (much like the pain of an abused child) is so tremendous, that denial has become the order of the day. Most of the collective energy we have spent has been on integrating into(economically, socially, and politically) a society we KNOW to be corrupt, and it's costing us. Yes, we do need to be responsible for our own healing and the reclamation of our power; however, that will not happen as long as we are in denial because if you don't know your sick, you won't go to the doctor. So that people will get the FULL spectrum of the Stockholm Syndrome and how it can be generalized to the issue at hand, check out this site:
http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/stockholm.html
It continually fascinates me how the ETHICS of the practices I'm addressing keeps being muddled with a supposed lack of respect for the RIGHTS of individuals to engage in them. I'm extremely respectful of people's RIGHTS; but I am NOT obligated to appreciate or embrace WHAT people do or HOW they think. No...you won't put that off on me...the only things I hate are self-centered arrogance and privilege. Not too worried though...they will have their day in court,and I will be one of the judges. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2873
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 01:51 pm: |
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Pick your expert, folks! In a trial, the defense and prosecution always have 2 authorities with diametrically opposed opinons, so a jury has to goes with its gut feelings. And, I for one, am wary about the use of the phrase "white supremacy." It has become a buzz word designed to silence any black person who doesn't agree with the dogma of the authentic black crowd. It's like the label "Communist" used to be. All the right-wing conservatives called anybody who didn't agree with their partisan views a "Communist". Words can be powerful weapons to manipulate the gullible. A side note: a looong time ago I attended the U. of I. with Frances Cress' sister, and I had a occasion to see Frances in the company of her 2 sisters, one of whom was light, the other who was brown, and I could've predicted waaay back then, just from body language, how the darkest-skinned Frances was going to come out. There always seemed to be an undercurrent of bitterness in her writings. Whatever. |
Blaklioness
Regular Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 02:36 pm: |
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There is no silencing of ANYBODY in this society who upholds and benefits from the white supremacy dynamic. As for Dr. Welsing, if none of what's being relayed here is true according to you, then what's she have to be "bitter" about? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 675
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 02:45 pm: |
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Homeboy did take a whole week to come back with his response....
"my server was down". Yeah, okay (wink-wink)..... A whole week and that's all he came back with... (LOL)....
Tonya |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2878
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 03:21 pm: |
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blaklioness, I never said anything relayed here is not true, except maybe that opinion you just rendered about white supremacy. I just remarked in an earlier post that colorism does exist but is a problem that isn't likely to be solved because people can't change their color and not a whole lot of people are inclined to change their attitude about color. You apparently think differently. But trust, me. America is not going to accomodate your grievances or is it going to drastically change. It's all about who holds the winning cards and it ain't you and yours. |
Blaklioness
Regular Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 04:19 pm: |
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Cynique:
America is on its way out for all of the many injustices it was founded and exists on...you think me and "mine", despite current appearances, won't see justice?? AGAIN...we shall see says the tortoise to the hare...we shall see... |
Blaklioness
Regular Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 04:50 pm: |
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Cynique:
It's funny that you would say that it's people of your ilk harbor the winning cards when earlier you put yourself in the shoes of the underdog. Wasn't "communist" used to describe the political stance of a SMALL number of people who supposedly posed a threat to the status quo? How do you, the "winning" card holder, fit into that description? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 731
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 06:14 pm: |
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CYNIQUE:
"she uplifts them with the feel-good comfort zone she provides, a scenario that harks straight back to slavery day."
MOONSIGNS:
I understand the point you're making. I have a question, do you feel that this dynamic will ever have the possiblity to change? If so, how?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2880
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 07:20 pm: |
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Blaklioness, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say people of MY ilk hold the winning cards. I meant that the powers-that-be hold the winning cards. I just know how to play the game. That's how we "black" folks have always gotten over. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2881
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 07:32 pm: |
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Moonie, Oprah is one of a kind! In a way she "stoops to conquer." And conquer she does. Nobody is really harmed by the subtle mammy image she personifies and as long as white people regard her as non-threatening, this symbionic love-fest between her and her audience will continue until she retires from the public eye. IMO. |
Ntfs_encryption
Regular Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 26
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 05:12 pm: |
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Ntfs__encryption:
Your responses are pretty typical of ANY person who wishes the white supremacy establishment to go unquestioned, and believe me---I understand.
### Ha! Ha! Ha! That’s funny. When I first read that I laughed because I thought you were joking. But after further reading your post, I realized that you were serious and you actually believe this. First of all, it never ceases to amaze me how self anointed “Black-ologists” have taken on the lofty role of delegating who is black and who is not. No room for disagreement or serious intellectual debate. Bottom line: “If you agree with me, then you are ok and you will receive your Premium Black Folks membership in the mail within 10 working days. If you do not agree with me, then you are a self hating Uncle Tom (who receives daily briefs and designated action items from white racists) who is working tirelessly to under mind the progress of black people. Done deal…end of subject.” Truly amazing.
Any black person who holds an opposing view or opinion must some how be suspect. An agent of white supremacy as you have suggested.
Have you ever noticed when whites disagree, race is never an issue? What do I mean? You could take a hard line white conservative like a Sean Hannity or David Horowitiz and pit him against a so-called white far left liberal like Al Franken or George Soros, and let them debate the war in Iraq, abortion, affirmative action, racial profiling by the police or border control and immigration. You will see a very heated and passionate debate in which both sides will not temper their distain for the other. But one thing you will not hear is one calling the other traitors to the white race or hating themselves for being white. What you will see is an intense disagreement and unabashed loathing of the others politics. Unfortunately, some black people do not believe or will not allow this type of disagreement. Race loyalty must be at the core of the disagreement. The Black-ologists will not allow another black person to disagree with them without childish name calling and mindless race baiting. And the reason is very simple. Since most of their racist arguments are void of substance and verifiable meaning, they have to reduce an otherwise spirited debate into a rant that is groundless and petty. Never mind the initial issue at hand, just call the person you disagree with names and accuse them of selling out to the white man or unwittingly supporting the subjugation of black people for disagreeing with you. Yeah….right!
You indicate that institutional racism does have an impact, but you don't indicate WHAT impact?
### Why should I? You don’t know? Where do you live? You have suggested that you are a fearless and proud black woman but yet you need me to outline the affects of institutional racism? To be fair, I will if need be but I’m surprised you would ask me to do so.
You don't agree with my assertions, but what are yours?...and remember, you must provide hard data to back them up.
### No I don’t. You are the one who is making sweeping generalizations about people based on race and gender, not me.
Let me give you an example. A friend of mine who lives in NYC wrote me last year and stated; “Black women wash their feet only when they have a medical appointments” (I am I not lying –he actually said this!). Naturally, I had to question this assertion. I asked him where he got this information and he told me a “black female” friend of his told him that. He and I had a heated debate about this because he actually believes it. But it is easy for him to except this nonsense since has no use for black women and will not date them. Regardless, he failed to provide irrefutable evidence or research to prove that black women as a group, have poor hygiene, and only time take the time to wash their feet when they have medical appointments.
So why would I have to prove that “black women do wash their feet” regardless if they have medical appointments or not? HE IS THE ONE WHO SAID BLACK WOMEN AS A GROUP DO NOT WASH THEIR FEET. The burden of proof lies with him since he made such an outrageous accusation. I don’t have to prove anything. He does. Just like you. You are the one making generalizations about the behavior and psychology of black people that you do not agree with, not me. So the ball is in your court to prove your sweeping generalizations are no more than personal opinions and faulty conjecture.
And this time...please try not to let it take you a week ;)
### I apologize for these very ate posts. I’m working on a number of personal projects and I don’t always have time to respond in a timely manner. But I shall try to do better. Again, I apologize.
You choose Eurocentric "crackpots" like Henry Louis Gates…..
### Groan….here we go again. Why is Gates a Eurocentric crackpot? What did he write or say that is rooted in ongoing nefarious statements? What exactly does he lie about or fabricate? Not saying that he has not, but since you stated he was a “crackpot”, what evidence do you have that he is? I’m more than willing to entertain any evidence you have. Details please.
(a man with an established history of being involved with non-black women)…..
### And? What does that mean? And what does that have to do with his academic accomplishments and abilities? What does his personal life (when criminal or illegal activity is absent) have to do with his credentials? Is his accomplishments null and void simply because you have an issue with who he sleeps with? I guess you believe that Fredrick Douglass, the great black American abolitionist who escaped from slavery and then risked his own freedom by becoming an outspoken antislavery lecturer, writer and publisher who lectured throughout the US and England on the brutality and immorality of slavery, was suspect since his wife was white. Right? Should the musical genius of innovator Charlie “Yard Bird” Parker be dismissed also since his wife was white? Marian Anderson, Charles Mingus and Quincy Jones should all be striped of their artistic accomplishments and contributions simply (and only because) their mates were non-black, correct? Ok. That makes perfect sense. Sounds intelligent, logical and morally flawless. You win. My bad.
…….who you consider "safe" and decide with certain arrogance that these are the authorities to whom I should be referring. Meanwhile, you adamantly dismiss the authorities I referenced but failed to produce any UNDEBATABLE counter research with which to refute it.
### Oh really? I have to prove to you that Frances Welsings assertions that whites were originally genetic "albino mutants" with "defective skins" who were driven from Africa by their non-albino relatives (black Africans) is not ridiculous? Or that white people "have great difficulty in absorbing energy data from the universe at multiple frequencies deep energy levels"? Why should I have to prove such racist silliness is “not true”? Because you actually believe it? You can’t tell the difference between something that is medically or scientifically plausible and something that is intellectually insulting? You’re having problems “not believing” such cretinous nonsense and I have to prove that it is not true? Uhhhhh….no thanks. I’ll pass. You win again.
So you'll be aware, I have walked in Black female skin ALL of my life. Therefore, I am ACCUTELY aware of the culture of Black people in this country.
### Oh really? OK. Sounds possible.
The terms "good" hair and "bad" hair are actively used by African American people TODAY---that is NOT some simplistic concept I pulled out of my ass.
### Never suggested that you did. I suggest you go back and read my last post. I stated my personal revulsion at such nonsense. Oh….I forgot. I have to “prove” to you that such inane terms as “good” and “bad” hair is ridiculous. No?
Have you ever thought about why the VAST majority of Black women in this country perm their hair---I mean the REAL reason? MOST Black women will …………gather statistics on what percentage of them will go WITHOUT those perms for a given period of time.
### Why would I have to do that? To prove something that I already know? You contend that the reason black women perm their hair is because they have suffered some kind of long term psychological damage from white brain washing or self hatred. I’m sure such instances have existed. But to make a “generalization” that black women as group perm their hair because they loath being black is insulting. My grandmother straightened her hair and she was the fiercest and most proud black woman I have ever known. I guess you believe Dorothy Height, Ida B. Wells-Barnett, Zora Neale Hurston and Augusta Savage were all psychologically damaged and brain washed because of a personal decision they made about their hair style, right? Perhaps you should do some research on Madam C. J. Walker and how her invention changed the lives of generations of black American women. But of course, you will contend that her invention was the outgrowth of self hate and racial confusion. And anyone who defies your lofty and self-righteous nationalistic bombast is a damaged and in denial.
Since you conceed that we do live in a society that is both racist and sexist, then you must realize that the emphasis on looks is centered around women; this is primarily why men tend to get away with certain physique issues like weight that women will NOT escape.
### True. I have no problems realizing this.
It doesn't mean that men are above the physical issue, it just means they tend to center it around women---not themselves. I hope that's clear.
### Crystal clear.
You indicated that you see Black people perceiving other races of people as attractive ALL the time. Does this not prove my point? You see it ALL the time, but WHY??
### Uhhhhh….I’m sorry but you totally misunderstood me. When I stated I see this type of thing all the time I was referring to the fact that I see individual black people who are attracted to non-blacks for whatever their personal reasons are. I think you are suggesting I said “black people are always perceiving non-blacks as attractive”. I was not stating blacks as a “group” do this. I was stating I see some blacks as individuals (not as a group) who are attracted to people who are not black. Their reasons vary just as blacks who see other blacks as attractive vary. It’s never exactly the same for everyone whether the individuals they are attracted to are of the same racial background or not. People are attracted to other people for different reasons. Have you ever noticed how some of your friends may find someone attractive or appealing but you do not? You may ask yourself what in the world do they see in that person because you personally do not find them desirable. Why is that?
You picked six--count them SIX--black people out of thousands who mate/date/marry interracially, and all of them swear that color wasn't an issue. What scientific proof do you have that they were telling the truth?
### Well, why would they lie? Not saying it’s impossible, but I doubt it. There was no reason for them to lie because there was no right or wrong reason for their personal choices. I was not challenging them nor demanding an explanation for the mate they selected. There was “no penalty” for giving me the wrong answer. Unlike you, I was not going to castigate them for their personal choice. I was not going to attempt to denigrate them and call them names because of my “own personal issues”.
I was not conducting a scientifically verifiable poll with sound statistical analysis and standardized methods. That was not necessary. I just know them personally and I asked them. That’s all. I wasn’t attempting to prove anything other than the fact that “six people” I asked did not complement your assertion.
Black people in this country have done NOTHING as a whole to deal with those psychological scars because the pain of it (much like the pain of an abused child) is so tremendous, that denial has become the order of the day.
### I have no idea what that means. And I also have no idea why you are so convinced that black Americans suffer from severe psychopathological damage. Your comment smacks of self righteous demagoguery and racism. Black people are psychologically scared and damaged as compared to whom? What is the litmus test that a black person must pass in order to get your rubber stamp of approval? What ten point Rorschach or race based Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory Test must a black person must pass to rate your thumps up? I’m sure you have established a measurable empirical set of criteria for a racially healthy black person (i.e. Frances C. Welsing) and one for an institutionally damaged brain washed one (i.e. Henry Gates). Correct? Just because a black person does not choose to think like you does not mean they have racially inflicted psychological scars.
Most of the collective energy we have spent has been on integrating into(economically, socially, and politically) a society we KNOW to be corrupt, and it's costing us.
### Oh really? Costing you what? Well, I’ll be the first to admit that America has a very brutally racist history that was enforced through dehumanizing laws and an indifferent lethargic national government. This is not a personal opinion but one of documented fact. But having said that, I’ll ask a question that Ken Hamblin (and no –I am not a Ken Hamblin fan or supporter) asks: “Pick a better country. Never mind all the corruption, lies and inequity, pick a better country”. Don’t give me a rant, a predictable Uncle Tom accusatory lecture or an impassioned diatribe. Just give me a name.
There is not one country that exists on this planet were it’s government and society is free of corruption, lies, nepotism, class and race inequities. None! Black people face tremendous hurtles and obstacles in every country. So, where is life better or more promising for a black person? Brazil? Cuba? Sudan? England? Where? In Africa, extreme poverty is endemic, with nearly half the population in sub-Saharan Africa living on less than $1 per day, and almost four-fifths living on less than $2 per day. Life expectancy is less than 50 years, due in large part to armed conflicts and never ending revolutions,, the AIDS epidemic, brutal ethnic/tribal cleansing, inadequate and in many cases, virtually non-existent health care and social services. The human suffering underlying these statistics is horrifying. Do you care to debate this? Or do I have to “prove it?” Bottom line is this, yes there many problems and daunting issues blacks face in this country. That cannot be denied. But regardless, I’ll take my chances here.
Yes, we do need to be responsible for our own healing and the reclamation of our power; however, that will not happen as long as we are in denial because if you don't know your sick, you won't go to the doctor.
### The problem with the Black-ologists is they have failed to come to grips with the historical reality that the history of black Americans is quite different from that of the people who were colonized in Africa or the Caribbean. None of those people had the same fundamental impact on their colonizers as did black Americans on this nation's development. The imprint of identifiable influence blacks have had in America is irrefutable and indelible. Black people in America have the highest level of income, education, health, socioeconomic ability, unrestricted artistic access and political freedom than any other group of blacks in the world. Bar none! So I’m still not sure why you are committed to this mantra that black Americans are “sick”. I asked this before and I’ll ask you again, “sick compared to whom”? What is this standard that you are using to determine that black people sick? And in denial of what? What is there to deny? That you don’t have job? That you have children with no father or male figure in their lives? That you have a drinking problem? That you want a better job? That you’re overweight? Or how about denying the reality of racial profiling or poor urban school systems? What are they in denial of and exactly what is this “sickness” you are so strident in proclaiming?
It continually fascinates me how the ETHICS of the practices I'm addressing keeps being muddled with a supposed lack of respect for the RIGHTS of individuals to engage in them.
### Well, perhaps you may consider respecting and accepting the fact that individuals are “entitled” to make decisions about their personal lives without being subjected to petty names and the misguided specious rhetoric by self anointed haters. It seems to me the core of your angst stems from your inability to accept the idea that individuals who do not agree with you are not “scared” and “damaged”. Your relentless intolerance for those who have opposing political views seems to be more than you can stomach.
I'm extremely respectful of people's RIGHTS; but I am NOT obligated to appreciate or embrace WHAT people do or HOW they think.
### Good. I don’t have a problem with that. But I do have a problem with people who attack other people simply because of the personal preferences and choices they make in their lives. Civil disagreement and debate is healthy and should be encouraged. But racist brow beating and intimidation by playing the race card and making unnecessary factious accusations about whether they are “black”(?) for no other reason than disagreeing with a person, is counter productive and smacks of an argument without substance. Such ploys are cheap and undercut meaningful dialogue.
No...you won't put that off on me...the only things I hate are self-centered arrogance and privilege.
### Oh…..?
Not too worried though...they will have their day in court,and I will be one of the judges.
### Their day in court and you will be one of the judges? I see…..and what court is this? And why would you be in the position to judge someone? Just curious.
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Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 09:23 pm: |
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Nfts_encryption:
Here we are playing a game of cards; you get up to take a break and stay so long you can't even remember what cards have been played. ;) It's alright though...I ain't mad atcha!
I'll be back from my own break in a bit with my counter arguments and some reminders...meanwhile...find some FRESH material why don't ya. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 774
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
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LMAO!!!!
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Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 52
Registered: 10-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 03:24 am: |
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Nfts_encryption:
Ok...shoot...I had to go back and read the header to this puppy to make sure we just took a slight divergence off the path instead of leaving the entire country! LOL!
Anyway, first of all, you need to know that unless something is GENUINELY impossible, I don't generally let people hold me to a different standard than the one(s) they hold for themselves. There's no hypocrisy in my world, so you won't get to insist that I show you "scientific proof" of the obvious while you get to refute my stances with emotional NON-responses. Fair enough?? Good! Moving on...
A.) I am a person with a sense of humor and enjoy being around others who can laugh as well. I am not, however, a 24-hour clown, and I do NOT see anything funny about the notion of white supremacy---a system, whether or not you agree, that exists purely to destroy the global African population. Further, I have NO problem deeming others who willingly aid that system (in whatever way) the enemy, as their destructive ideologies are not mere differences of opinion.
B.) How effectively do you think you can compare white discussion/debates with black ones? This is like comparing apples and oranges. White people have NOT walked in our shoes, so they take for granted MANY things that Black people do not. You are right when you say that whites don't play the "race card" when debating/disagreeing with each other----what history do they have that would allow for this? You need to keep in your mind the depth of the divide and conquer strategies that have been used against people of African descent. The only thing white people argue over is HOW they're going to control us. THAT, my friend, is the REAL premise of politics in this country and abroad. Many Blacks have gotten so sidetracked by the facade, that they actually believe that our ULTIMATE happiness depends on which slavemaster is running the big house!
C. I asked you about the effects of institutional racism because when I laid my ideas on the table, you blatantly rejected them under the guise of lack of scientific "data". I insisted, as you insisted of me, that you present your scientifically supported notions about the effects of racism on the Black mind. Thus far, the only "evidence" you have presented is your selection of six personal friends who all denied the color factor in their choice of mates. Again, I'm not a statistician, but both you and I know darn well that that is NOT a scientifically/statistically sound way of gathering data. The fact that you already knew this small group (out of THOUSANDS of individuals who date interracially) makes the sample not only insignificant but tainted. Try RANDOM sampling next time. Try questioning techniques that are more INDIRECT so that you lessen the chances of the "lie factor" occuring. You know the proof really is in the pudding. This is DEBATE...if you have an argument, then yes....you absolutely DO have to prove it, OR you must counter your opponent. Otherwise, what turns my "facts" into "opinions"? What makes Welsing's research "quackery" if you cannot DISPROVE what she says? We're not all scientists, so we make observations and analyses based on our experiences; so, if you want "proof", then you'd better be prepared to give it.
D.) You doubted my SPECIFIC beliefs on the psychological damage incurred by racism but, despite that, you did agree that there was an impact. Again, as I stated earlier, you need to state the nature of that impact. You need to go back and read my last post to you again, so that you can understand the context of the analogy of the abused child. HOPEFULLY (although I seriously doubt it), that will clarify why I stated that Blacks, as a whole, have done nothing about the PSYCHOLOGICAL damage caused by our enslavement (plantation and colonial).
E.) Pick a better country to do what?? There is NO plausible way you can manipulate your way around the fact that the United States is as "great" as it is BECAUSE of the corrupt things it has done and IS doing in many of those very same countries you listed. No way. Yeah, I understand that leaving the U.S. is like going from the fryer to the fire, but what I state is nonetheless true. So, I'm going to ask you again...pick a better country to do what????
F.) You like to argue that Black people are just making choices. So, if we're dealing with Black women and the hair issue, I will say again, IF THE CHOICE TO PERM, STRAIGHTEN, ETC. IS PURELY ABOUT STYLE, THEN POLL BLACK WOMEN AND SEE WHAT PERCENTAGE OF THOSE WOMEN WILL GO WITHOUT PROCESSING THEIR HAIR FOR A GIVEN PERIOD OF TIME. You will quickly learn just how much shit you're shoveling. You claim that Madame Walker "helped" Black women. Helped Black women how? How does inventing something that perpetuates going against the nature of who you are "helpful"? I'm sure your grandmother was a "proud, fierce" black woman---so proud and fierce in fact that she helped raise a child who raised a child who keeps racist "friends" who ignorantly believes that ALL Black women have crusty feet!
G.) Ok...again, I detect a tiny bit of hypocrisy on your part. You claim I am a name-caller but you choose words like "Blackologist" and "Afrocentric crackpots"?? Please. Practice what you preach.
H.) You claim I'm downgrading the quality of an individual's talents or skills because of who they marry or date. I say absolutely not. Michael Jackson can sing and dance his ass straight off this planet, but that does NOT mean he is a mentally healthy individual. Henry Louis Gates can write and speak well, but that does NOT mean his message is not tinged with white supremacist (i.e. Eurocentric) rhetoric. O.J. Simpson and Charles Barkley were (I suppose) extremely gifted at manipulating balls, but that does NOT mean that they are not extremely sexist and colorist in their thinking. Again, I'm going to insist that you not muddle issues for your convenience. You're deluding YOURSELF by thinking that who someone chooses as a mate is not about that individual's politics and character when we are discussing THIS particular issue. What is "meaningful dialogue" when you can't speak honestly without being mislabeled "racist"?
I.) Justice will have its day in court. What do you THINK I mean by that?? I used myself to represent similar minded African people who will see justice for all the wrongs that have been committed against us (by ANYONE) under white supremacy.
I THINK I have addressed your comments from that last "book" you posted...otherwise, I'm certain you'll get back to me.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 778
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:08 am: |
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Wow, Blaklioness.
You do not play!
I love it so much I almost cried.
I have felt so exhausted, making these same posts for 4 years around here.
And what these men fail to realize...is that as Black WOMEN, it's our responsibility to nurture and "dream into being" black children.
So, naturally, we would be consumed by these issues and would feel defensive against anyone who threatened to erase our children.
You would think that on that level IF NOTHING ELSE...these men would understand what the real deal is.
But they don't.
They're so selfish and self-absorbed and so removed from REAL black life...that they can't even appreciate what is natural love.
They don't give or know love---but expect us to believe that they found it in the arms of death (ie. his friends).
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 779
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:39 am: |
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Ny-crptyion wrote:
Black people in this country have done NOTHING as a whole to deal with those psychological scars because the pain of it (much like the pain of an abused child) is so tremendous,
Children who have been abused...often become abusers themselves and inflict pain, abuse and destruction on those around them.
In Africa, extreme poverty is endemic, with nearly half the population in sub-Saharan Africa living on less than $1 per day, and almost four-fifths living on less than $2 per day. Life expectancy is less than 50 years, due in large part to armed conflicts and never ending revolutions,, the AIDS epidemic, brutal ethnic/tribal cleansing, inadequate and in many cases, virtually non-existent health care and social services.
You know...this is such American Media Bullshit, propogated by WHITES to make Black Americans ashamed to be descended from African people.
It's like saying ALL BLACK AMERICANS live in the ghetto and are poor and dying of AIDS----which is simply not the case. But it's the only image of Africa you ever shown.
I was born in Africa and lived in Sudan--in a virtual paradise....and as an adult, I went back to Africa and lived.
MOST people in Africa who are dirt poor...have no idea, no knowledge...that they're poor. So they're VERY happy and lead simple, fun lives---just as I did as a kid.
And for every 1 person who is suffering the tragedy and misery that you described, there's 3,000 Africans...who aren't.
African people are so tired of these stereotypes and the White people searching out and ONLY REPORTING the very worst images of Africans that they can find.
And like a typical ignorant "lackey" of a White person, you spew the same DISHONEST garbage about an entire continent of 50 nations that has 850 million inhabitants and is no where near as desolate as you think.
A friend of mine who lives in NYC wrote me last year and stated; “Black women wash their feet only when they have a medical appointments” (I am I not lying –he actually said this!).
This is what WHITE people used to say about BLACK people, remember?
And if that's your friend...it says a lot about you.
Black people in America have the highest level of income, education, health, socioeconomic ability, unrestricted artistic access and political freedom than any other group of blacks in the world. Bar none! So I’m still not sure why you are committed to this mantra that black Americans are “sick”.
You think material possessions are that important?
You just said that your BLACK FRIEND in N.Y. believes that "all black women" have hygiene problems...and you don't think he's sick?
Black Americans are VERY SICK. I don't care how rich and vapid they are.
But to make a “generalization” that black women as group perm their hair because they loath being black is insulting.
Where would BLACK WOMEN (or African women) even come up with the idea to straighten their hair?
It's completely unnatural and unnecessary.
So why on earth would a whole nation of them just UP and start straightening their hair?
To look like who?
They sure as hell never straightened their hair in Africa. It doesn't come from black culture.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 780
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:53 am: |
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Africa is a continent
of 50 nations that has
850 million inhabitants
and is no where near
as desolate as
AMERICAN MEDIA would
have you think.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 781
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:58 am: |
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This is where
BLACK AFRICAN
People live in
their own world.
You don't need a lot of money
to live in Africa.
Trust me.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2916
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 11:17 am: |
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Once again I make the judgment that all the ongoing debate between nfts and blaklioness proves is that there is a broad schism within the African America community. And to me it all boils down to the pragmatism of survival versus then romanticism of upheaval. Talk is cheap but reality is expensive. The bottom line is that in America whether we like it or not, blacks and whites are so intricately entwined that they need each other. After all, how can this white supremacy thrive without another race to compare itself to. And in order for black people to justify their shortcomings and vent their anger they need white supremacy to place the blame on. I would also suggest that blacklioness and her like-minded vigilantes seek an alliance with the terrorist community and together by making plans to blow up buildings and poison the water supply, they stand a chance of punishing white America for not being benevolent enough to relinquish its power. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 11:20 am: |
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Kola:
Those pictures are beautiful... and powerful. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
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Cynique:
Is that Buddhism 101?? Please...I'm going to suggest for you what I suggested for your hero...try a NEW tactic. There is no NEED for white supremacy...none whatsoever. I have no delusions of grandeur about blackness...primarily because I know that if we hadn't been screwing up ALREADY, whites and other nonblacks would NOT have ever had the inroads to carry out THEIR destructive acts (in their MANY forms) against us. I'm no fool....neither am I an aimless, careless, senseless destroyer. You KNOW I ain't lying....you KNOW it.
With that, the Lioness says, "Buddha loves ya!" ;) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2917
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 01:08 pm: |
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When you bitch about something there is always a need for a scape goat, no matter what you call it. And it certainly enhances your argument when you substitute white supremacy for racism - which is your tactic. And I have no heroes, only comrades. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 57
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 01:51 pm: |
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You say tomAto...I say tomOto. Oh well.
Incidentally, there is ONLY an extremely fine line between white supremacy and racism. I STILL maintain that, in general, people of color (especially Blacks) are some of the biggest practicing white supremacists on this planet. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2919
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 02:22 pm: |
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Well, the white race has superior power which they acquired from practicing superior treachery and superior ambition and superior aggression. A lot of people are mesmrized by this because everybody loves a winner. Black folks seem to be stuck in a losing mode because no superior mercy was ever shown them. But that's the way of the cruel world. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 02:59 pm: |
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Ahhh yes...now, how long was the devil given to rule again??? 6000 years?...tick tock, tick tock, tick tock... |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 784
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 03:11 pm: |
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Cynique:
Well, the white race has superior power which they acquired from practicing superior treachery and superior ambition and superior aggression.
So when you're accusing me of having those same qualities----why isn't admirable?
Why can you only appreciate it in Whites?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2920
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:07 pm: |
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Did I say that I admired those qualities in whites? And I never accused you of being superior at anything, Kola, except having delusions of grandeur compounded by a messianic complex and a short fuse. Puleeze. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2921
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:42 pm: |
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Well, blaklioness, I don't personify the devil since I am not a creationistwho takes the bible literally but I do give consideration to the powers of evil and good. In the big picture, however, these 2 vibes might be nothing more than opposing forces with no judgment attached to them. And, worldly concepts might be better left alone, since after all, evil is relegated to the dark side and good to the side of light. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 05:12 pm: |
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Then why describe the world as cruel?? If there's no judgement attached to our actions, then I suppose maybe I should rethink my stance on the full scale killing of the white/light races eh?? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2924
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 05:23 pm: |
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Didn't I say that I personally give consideration to the forces of good and evil, blaklioness. But who knows about THE BIG PICTURE. And I am not trying to reform you. You keep injecting religion into the situation. Didn't I tell you to go hook up with the terrorists? Follow where your Christian sentiments lead you. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 05:59 pm: |
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For the record, I am not religious, although I do believe that SOME historical truth can be found in all religious doctrines; those references are largely about analogies and allegories. Further, it ain't ME who goes into countries and communities where the people don't look like me in an effort to destroy them on every level so that I can live a privileged existence; THOSE are the REAL acts of terrorism...watch where those other three fingers are pointing now...watch 'em.... |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 789
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 06:11 pm: |
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Uh OH!
Three fingers.
LMAO!!!!
lioness, you talk like my Nana.
Are you from North Carolina?
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Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 06:22 pm: |
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nah...but I am a Southern girl... |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 753
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 06:35 pm: |
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Blacklioness, you laid it down on the "brotha"!
Without getting sweaty, indignant, or irate you erased ALL his haughty assertions and you simply schooled him.
But this quote said it all:
I'm sure your grandmother was a "proud, fierce" black woman---so proud and fierce in fact that she helped raise a child who raised a child who keeps racist "friends" who ignorantly believes that ALL Black women have crusty feet!
...(LOL, Chile!) You put it on his ass!
You could've started it and ended it right there....
Tonya
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2926
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 07:06 pm: |
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Well, blaklioness, invoking the name of Jesus Christ and the devil in lieu of rebutting my arguments does seem sound a little religious to me. And I don't know what relevance your statement about Christian missionaries has. I'm certainly not someone who praises them. Why would I? You are also the one talking always taking about self-defense, and I don't know what you have in mind when you mention it, but the only effective self defense you and your compadres could muster would have to be in the form of hit and run terrorist attacks. |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 65
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 07:34 pm: |
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Tonya, girl you are a mess....a straight up firecracker!!
Cynique...please...you really need to follow my intent a little better...peace... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2928
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 01:10 pm: |
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Now that I have some idea as to what your intent is, I will keep your responses to me in perspective, blaklioness, and I certainly respect the restraint you exercise in defending your cause.(something I'm not used to from other hot-headed adversaries who shall remain nameless. LOL) |
Blaklioness
Veteran Poster
Username: Blaklioness
Post Number: 71
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 02:27 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption:
Here's some more research that may help you gain understanding...it was carried out by a CREDENTIALED psychologist:
http://www.posttraumaticslavesyndrome.com/
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