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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 658
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:55 pm: | 
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I want you to want me
I laughed, I cried -- then I wondered: Why won't the "Wedding Crashers" crash any sister's wedding?
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By Debra Dickerson
July 30, 2005 | I was first in line for "Wedding Crashers" on opening night, hoping it would be as funny and sexy as it looked. It was. I laughed out loud and had enough naughty thoughts about surfer-dude Owen Wilson to make me squirm a tad in my seat. I'm dying to know what the deal is with that adorable crook-nose and, furthermore, hereby volunteer to faithfully brush those shaggy strands out of his eyes. When Vince Vaughn vulgarly announced himself a "cocksman" and bragged that he was 6-foot-5 -- I'd had no idea! -- there may even have been a slight arching of the back. The closest I've ever come to an interest in math is the few minutes I spent trying to triangulate how tall Owen must be when the two stood side by side. In particular, the highlight of the movie was the early and prolonged scenes of them partying down at a Benneton ad's confection of weddings set to "Shout" -- Hindu, Chinese, Jewish, Irish -- that will be wearing out the replay button on America's remotes when the DVD comes out.
But it was the montage of naked women cascading jubilantly into the rogues' beds, poufy bridesmaid dresses crumpled somewhere out of frame, that did the most for me. The sight of them -- alone, unarmed and unafraid, as one military motto goes -- was as deliciously sexy and just as much fun as the shenanigans at the weddings where Wilson and Vaughn wooed their willing prey. It was fitting, not to mention gutsy in these WWJD days, that this part continued to be set unapologetically to "Shout" and not some gauzy, romantic cop-out guck so we could forgive these sluts for schtupping a man they'd just met. "Crashers," at least in the beginning, wasn't about love. It was about making multi-orgasmic lemonade on love's fringes until it was your turn to star in a wedding.
That montage was a celebration of sex, carnality and the feminine ideal. It was a testament to the lion-tamer aspect of being a straight chick, that heady "bring a strong man to his knees" adrenaline rush that is one of the keys to understanding your power as a woman. At the same time it's a testament to the pleasures of surrender, that sweet, sweet payoff that can only come after a free-fall shuddering toward a landing site that has been promised but not verified, you tramp. That happy Vesuvius of perky breasts, firm thighs and concave tummies was a tribute to youth, to the search for adventure and to our enduring belief in romantic serendipity. It was a bungee jump with an elastic cord you're pretty sure is functional, but hey, if it's not, your wounds will heal. It was about optimism and thrill-seeking and I was proud of those sluts. They leapt before they looked and I don't want to know anyone who never has.
But, somehow, by the end of the parade of weddings crashed and women laid, I realized I was sad. It took me an entire martini to figure out why: The crashers seduced their way through every culture and every ethnicity but mine. Why don't Owen and Vince want to seduce me, too? Why don't they want to dance with my nana at a wedding?
It's confusing to me that in a nation, a world, where black culture so permeates, if not dominates, the entertainment industry that a major Hollywood release would throw up its hands and declare Negro culture impenetrable. There isn't a white boy in America who doesn't do a jerky cabbage patch when he's happy and pronounce himself "dissed" when angry, yet Hollywood can't break the code on LaQuisha and Raheem jumping the broom? Odd that "Shout," performed by black musicians, was chosen as the raucous anthem for an ode to collapsing racial and ethnic borders but excludes blacks, the lubricant by which this celebration of humanity, this transcendence of race, proceeds. More troubling, could it be that achieving racial harmony results from non-blacks banding together to exclude blacks? (If this seems extreme, check out David Roediger's excellent new work, "Working Toward Whiteness: How America's Immigrants Became White." He discusses the extent to which joining in pogroms against blacks helped the despised Southern and Eastern European immigrants "prove" their whiteness and become Americanized.) We can provide the soundtrack, we can entertain, but we cannot participate; where have we heard that before? Whites can dance the hora, they can play mah-jongg with Chinese grannies, they can go Bollywood with the Hindus, but they can't figure out the electric slide? (That's our wedding staple, by the way. I have yet to hear "Shout" at a black wedding.) I reject most conspiracy theories, really I do, but I suspect that black culture was, however subconsciously, deemed unworthy.
Please don't misunderstand. I hate those Negroes who would bean count for black faces in Antarctica so they can get airtime whining about "the lack of diversity" blah blah. Start a school! Take in some foster kids! Run for office! If patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel, cheap race-mongering is the last refuge of an idiot. "Niggardly," indeed. Anytime you want someone with a ghetto pass to tell them to shut up for you, give a sister a call. I'm talking about something else, something more than "gotcha, white folks," something y'all won't be able to dismiss as easily as all that. I'm talking about something that grieves black women, that breaks our hearts so much I have never had a conversation with another black woman about it. Or, at least not one that dared venture further than "I bet he's got a white girl" as a gorgeous brother passed by. Our hearts are broken because we are unloved. More than that: Black women are unlovable, or so the world tells us every day. Most often, it's a sucker punch.
Minding my own business recently, I was reading my friend's excellent nonfiction book, "Random Family: Love, Sex and Trouble in the Bronx," which chronicles the intersected lives of a hardscrabble constellation of Latinas. In lamenting the loss of a lover to a rival, one woman was dumbfounded that anyone would prefer a woman "with hair like a black girl's" to her. I am ugly by definition. Usually, though, our degendering and masculinization is pretty easy to see coming. I watch the promos for my hero Chris Rock's new series about his Bed-Stuy adolescence and cringe when his "mother" traumatizes her son with bellowed, emasculating, dehumanizing threats like: "Boy, I will SLAP yo' name out the phone book, then call Ma Bell and tell her I did it." Hilarious, no? He looks about 10 as she terrorizes him with psychotic threats that would make Uday and Qusay proud. Who would want to bed that shrieking harridan? Who'd want to live next door to or hire such a bitch? Bets are off on how far into the series it will be before this black harpy (how redundant) is swiveling her neck and reducing a good man to shreds with her razor tongue. I have a 4-year-old son and an almost 2-year-old daughter who would go into cardiac arrest if I spoke to them that way, even in jest. Forgive me, Chris, but your "mother" proves that Zora Neale Hurston nailed it when she noted that black women are "the mules of the world."
She was speaking of how hard most of our lives were in the 1920s and 1930s, she was talking about the patriarchy and misogyny within the black community that keeps so many of us mute chambermaids who are regularly beaten, but perhaps most important, she was talking about what that hardness did to us, or rather, to others in dealing with us. Our ability to survive atrocity, to make something from nothing, to bounce back day after day -- somehow, this makes the world see us as rhino-skinned, never soft. Quadruple-lunged, never asthmatic. Incapable of giggling, blushing or shutting the hell up. Sisters are essentialized as indefatigable, never in need of a door held open, a chair pulled out. A "how are you doing, really?" I have to believe that somewhere in there is also the belief that the niceties are wasted on us, coarse cows that we are. Bears are happy shitting in the woods and "sistaz" ain't got no time for no nonsense like sweet talk, a man who rises when we do, or a lover to whisper naughty things to in the dark. And we don't need no stinking flowers either, or at least Jamie Foxx's hospitalized mother didn't; in "Collateral," she rejected them and belittled him for his foolishness. The bedraggled dandelions I got for Mother's Day this year will shrivel up and blow away before I'll part with them.
Owen, Vince: We long for those things. It's a misery to black woman why our strength, the strength that kept our people from extinction and which holds the community together yet, makes us seem manly somehow, as if no white woman has ever roughened her pink hands or survived rape for her family's sake. Or been a bitch. Why is it so hard to fathom that we can raise our children alone (if need be, rarely by preference), work two jobs and still look good in a miniskirt. Still want to look good in a miniskirt. Sisters are simply not seen as either ladylike or, to put it bluntly, fuckable. Rapeable, certainly, as the history of slavery and Jim Crow prove, just not fuckable.
I realized this in the 1980s and '90s when, because of my career choices, I was usually the only woman and only black around. I'd say nothing as my office mates, the men I partied with and who backed me to the hilt professionally, would grouse about the lack of women. I was smarter and better-looking than they were. I was, to take a page from my plain-spoken Vince, hot. I wore uncomfortably tight clothing. Makeup and sheer pantyhose. Nail polish. Jane Fonda for daaaaays. My heels were so legendary, my nickname was Spike. Oh, Debra dressed shamefully in the summertime. But to most white men, to the men who occupied the world that my life choices drew me to, I was invisible. When I finally married at 40, it was to the first man who'd asked me out in five years. I had been holding out for a brother but, realizing that was even less likely to happen, finally let that go.
Even when I was a seven-months-pregnant behemoth, I was invisible as I hefted a load of packages to the post office at Christmastime, as I struggled with a pallet of sodas at Costco. I was even invisible in the Tiny Tim confines of the modern airplane. I could hear crickets as I struggled to get my bag into the overhead. Two seats away, an elderly white lady was swarmed by white men helping her with hers. They politely excused themselves as they tried to hurry past my bulk to her. It was all I could do not to cry. I did cry the time two white men "erased" me in a shoebox-size Dunkin Donuts in Logan Airport. One had filled the tiny room with his luggage, his restless kids and a complicated order. I waited politely in line behind him. As he was trying to get organized, he noticed the white man in line behind me and apologized profusely for holding him up. Then he waved him gallantly on to the cashier. White man No. 2 had to step over my luggage to reach the counter. However racist white men may be, a nice rack should be the great neutralizer in an encounter that will only last a minute. You have to give racism its props; it's the only force proven to trump what a hound dog the average man is.
In the '80s and '90s, I reacted to my sexual invisibility vis-à-vis white men with faux feminist sarcasm and wannabe black nationalist contempt. But I'm 46 now and far less full of bullshit. I'm not angry. I'm hurt. It's not that I want white men to want me. I want all men to want me. I want to be seen as desirable, if I actually am. As available, if I actually am. As fuckable, though you should be so lucky. But, because I'm black, I'm somehow seen as a gender crasher, an imposter fronting as a real woman. Liable to get the sexual bum's rush at any moment. No wonder so many of us are bitches. It protects us from rejection if we make it impossible to get anywhere near us in the first place.
Sitting there in the dark, halfway through the "Wedding Crashers" montage, I realized that I was jealous of those girls just setting out in life and thought I was getting over it. I had made the most of my youth; it was someone else's turn now. I went all Mother Earthy and wise and found myself watching them with something like a maternal respect and approval, like lagging back a pace so my daughter could take her first steps or cheering as she hit her first home run. I was passing the torch, one risk-taking hottie to another. Or so I thought. In the end, all I was allowed to do was watch how "real women" live. Every woman will be able to picture herself in that parade of female pleasure, female power and eternal youth. Every woman but the black ones.
A basically sweet, silly movie has me, late in life, reconsidering my impatience with nitnoy black separatism -- black dorms, Miss Black America pageants, "The Wiz." I still believe that true separatism is not a viable option for a group comprising only 13 percent of the population, but perhaps a psychological one may well be required to maintain our mental health. As with OJ and Michael Jackson, white folks have turned on me when I've been among the most "assimilated" of Negroes, and I went slinking back to the hood. I've been soothing myself, post-"Crashers," with marathon sessions of the Soul Food compilation. What a relief. What a refuge. In that parallel universe, that majority-black fantasy land, sisters can be mere women, just women, any woman. Ones with "hair like a black girl's" or ones with weaves. Light, bright, damn near white, chocolate and everything in between. Straight. Gay. Working-class and multimillionaire. Godless and God-fearing. Bitchy and sweet. All different, all little concerned with white folks, all getting laid since the brothers there (unlike in the real world) can't take their eyes off us.
For us mules of the world, it's too bad that world doesn't exist either.
http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/07/30/gender_crashers/index.html
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 87
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:46 am: |
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Until recently I didn't realize that we were treated just as badly as black men during slavery/Jim Crow. The thing that astonishes me the most is the psychological abuse placed on us. Black women were said to be mules, manly, unworthy of love, loose, and ugly. This was done mainly to give white men an excuse to treat us like animals. This became the way we were viewed by white people and apparently black men as well.
These stereotypes are more painful today because black men have decided to add to it. Like the article points out, men like Martin Lawrence, Jammie Fox, Chris Rock and virtually every black man in hollywood are doing exactly what white men have done since slavery. This author also spends time discussing the lack of attention she's gotten from white men. Eventhough I understand where she's coming from, I can care less about the attention of white men. It's when our own men treat us this way that I find it almost impossible to understand and digest. Black men cannot know what they're doing because I can't amagine they'd continue. If they do then I expect to know why because they owe us at least that much.
Tonya
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3938
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:34 am: |
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'Vette,
I don't know whether to weep for Debra Dickerson or to laugh at her.
In one sentence she decries diversity peddling (I recall her authoring a fairly successful book on this very thesis titled "The End of Blackness") but then in another she laments not being "f#$%able" to White men. (She don't know that all other things being equal, White guys enjoy hiring and working with chicks - White, Black, Asian and Eskimo - they'd like to bone?)
Man.
Only a woman can get paid for dealing THAT particular brand of duplicity.
And if "The Wedding Crashers" had featured Wilson and Vaughn nailing some Black chicks, wouldn't a cache of self-righteous Black scribes crank out myriad columns about how the skanky copulations demeaned Black women?
Lastly, did it ever dawn on Debra that it was NOT her color or race that thwarted her garnering the attention and good favor of men? I mean, hey, a successful, young, educated and cosmopolitan woman isn't asked out on a date ONCE in five years?
I think it was Shakespeare who said, "The fault lies not in the stars, but in ourselves."
PS: Where was Debra's (gallant White) husband while his impregnated wife struggled to score soda at Costco? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 395
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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ABM,
You obviously didn't read the article.
Just forget Debra Dickerson wrote it---and read it again.
Kola Boof could have written that article.
And certainly would have.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 396
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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TONYA---
black men DO KNOW.
But for (1) a great number of black men HATE black women and get pleasure being a position to inflict pain on them....and (2) they want black women to feel desperate--so they can exploit them and run through them, while saving their real morals for the White or Non-Black women who are much much harder to attain.
**This is why I have repeatedly said that Black women are "WEAK"---not strong---because NEVER have they started a "movement" for themselves...or been truthful about their rank within the black community (ever other woman can waltz right in be crowned Queen of the Hood)...or joined together as Black Women to effectively give birth to a new son---which I keep harping on---because SONS are the ones who will stand up and fight for their mothers, change laws for their mothers, make movies that include and celebrate their mothers---but ONLY if the mothers instill a sense of "identity" and "self-love" within the sons.
Black Women do not create Malcolm or Harriet anymore....they create Snoop Dogg and Bryant Gumble and Michael Jackson. Their self-hatred permeates their SONS and in turn...their sons victimize US.
When was the last time you saw a Black woman get behind somebody like Alice Walker, bell hooks or Jill Nelson---or ANYBODY who has a VISION for black women?
(1) They're too afraid to. (2) They're "weak" and don't think they deserve anything.
And you still these stupid ass women like Mary J. Blige on the cover of ESSENCE with flowing blond hair---talking about NOTHING.
Most Black women are "under-developed" as people and are plain stupid.
I've been saying from the beginning that Black women IN THIS COUNTRY are not even considered women----and half of them are too stupid to even see that.
And ABM, in the CONTEXT of this film "Wedding Crashers"---there's no way that Black women could complain about being sexualized, when every other race of women was done the same way.
EXAMPLE A:
A group of sexy, bikini-clad women is shown running on the beach.
Not one is Black (let alone "authentically black", which in actuality is the only way that ALL BLACK can be acknowledged in one blow), but anyway, not one is black.
Later--the girls are being shown having "hip talk" with the fat, sassy BLACK bungalow maid (or somebody's AUNT), who of course is beyond child bearing age and is out of shape and haggard.
Can you figure out what the message is about the Black man's MOTHER in that scene?
EXAMPLE B:
A group of smart, beautiful, sexy WHITE WOMEN, both young and middle aged, are shown in business attire cooking up schemes and being "women" at a restaurant...or in a courtroom scene...etc.
CUT TO...Shaquilla the street HO giving a tip to the cop investigating the murder of one of the white women.
OR...cut to EVIL MABEL, the sex-less BLACK judge who quips jokes and makes No-nonsense comments, etc.
Go back to the WHITE WOMEN...they're joined by a Black, "culture-less" wanna be WHITE woman who espouses the values of the dominant culture (by fading into the background) and putting her allegiance with this group of WHITE WOMEN...and not the black girls in the community who so desperately NEED her.
EXAMPLE 3:
In a film made by BLACK MEN...
the good, beautiful upstanding women of the movie are HIGH YELLOW with white Patrician features or long flowing Indian hair. The men are Chocolate and considered desirable because they had mothers who had could make them come out looking BLACK.
The dark women are portrayed in the movie as (1)The old fat loving MOTHER or Grandmother (2) The evil, golddigging jealous darkie bitch (3) The smiling MEDIUM brown little girl, niece at the wedding ,etc. (3) The masculine black woman cop.
**Really pay attention to films like "Coming to America" and "Rosewood" and "Low Down Dirty SHame"---notice the portrayal of the "Light skinned" women in relation to the roles of the "Dark Skinned" women.
Take a good look at "Save the Last Dance" where a White Woman is finally placed in the High Yellow girl's role.
In COUNTLESS films made by BLACK MEN...these images reinforce the exact same White Supremacist bullshit that White Films espouse.
A trio of Black men recently financed, produced and directed "HONEY"--a film that starred JESSICA ALBA, with two blacks playing her parents and a black girl as her "sidekick", as Jessica came to "SAVE" the black ghetto neighborhood with her beauty and her mixed-ness and have a romance with a Black man.
Of course, Black MALES are way too "stupid" and "colorstruck" to see that this Conquering they think they're doing....is really the destruction of their own genetic-chromosomatic existence (they are the ones being conquered!)--as this effectively breeds them out, making it easier for the dominant culture to rule, divide and eliminate them. In other words---the WHITE MAN continues to "get born" and continues to rule the world through the WHITE WOMAN.
Because the Black Woman is not considered a "woman"----the BLACK MAN rules nothing and is governed, through his mixed kids, by the WHITE WOMAN.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3943
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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Kola,
I wonder whether YOU thoroughly read the article. I do. Because, respectfully, had you done so, you would NOT have honored it by saying you would have written it.
I hear/appreciate everything you say above. But THAT is NOT what I received from Debra's article, at least not primarily. Had she specifically focused on instances of media female Whitening/Lightening (ala "Save The Last Dance") as you do, I would not have had much of a beef with her article at all.
But she, instead, focused much more upon being pissed that the White (fake@$$ surfer dude) Owen Wilson doesn't want to f*#$ her (which I find the mere image of to be downright nasty).
She was MUCH more concerned about not being adored and feted by WHITE men than she was about receiving such treatment from BLACK men.
Lastly, I'm a bit confused. In your Example 1 and Example 2, are you describing actual scenes in the "Wedding Crashers"? Or are those amalgams of scenes you've observed in other movies?
PS: And yes there would have been some complains about Wilson and Vaughn boning Black chicks. Because someone would have made an issue of where the women were from (e.g., "duh hood"), the women appearances (e.g., too "Laquita"-looking), where the sex with down (e.g., in a church pew) and what they ate after they were down boning (e.g., fried chicken). I'm telling you; I know how Black foks do. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 399
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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But ABM, here is why I agree with Dickerson on the whole issue of WHITE MEN not seeing black women as objects of desire.
(1) A good deal of Black men's non-value, mistreatment of Black Females...is based on the idea that nobody else wants them anyway.
No other culture, race sees "Black" women as "women".
And Dickerson is right---White Power plays up this void for "strategic" and "political" reasons.
If Black women are not getting fucked---then less Black MEN will eventually be born.
(2) BLACK MEN, on the other hand, are portrayed in the media (NOW) as "real men", as desirable, as "available mates" for white women, Asian, Latina, every kind of woman--but black women.
And I don't hear YOU, ABM, or any other black men objecting to Black Men being wanted/portrayed as desirable by every race of women....in fact, YOU, ABM have celebrated it several times on our boards....basically flaunting, "Lookee, lookee--everybody wants us."
In several Will Smith films, his desirability has been "AFFIRMED"(?) by Non-Black women. Going all the way back to Jim Brown and Raquel Welch and the Black Man/High Yellow woman movies since Oscar Micheaux---Black men have been portrayed as "MEN" who are desirable and wanted, chiefly, by WHITE FEMALES.
So why should Black women be seen as undesirable lepers....when the reality is....every race of man is also attracted to and attempts to fuck black girls ALL THE TIME! Why can't the movies show life the way it really is?
(3) Dickerson is RIGHT ON when she asserts that until WHITE MEN (the powerful men who black males take their orders from about what beauty/womanliness is) acknowledge that the black woman is a "woman"-----then nobody else really will. She is right, unfortunately.
MOST black males younger than 30 see Black women as "maids--matrons--sex candy that you don't mate with--baby's mamas--bitter bitches--golddiggers--church saints".
Any other woman--is just a female. Notice how not a single Black man publicly called Kobe's white girl in Colorado a "golddigging bitch". She remains UNSCATHED by black comics, black men. Imagine if she were black.
Eminem however PROVED that no one will stand up for the honor of a Black Woman. No one.
COMING AT THIS FROM THE BACK DOOR:
If Black films, videos, etc. made by BLACK MEN were not so fully colorist---then White Men would be FORCED to acknowledge the Black woman (as they were in the late 60's, early 1970's) because of Black men DEMANDING that the image of their women be considered "beautiful", "worthy of motherhood" and "valuable--to be protected". In that short span, White Men began to "respect" Black women---because they saw Black men doing it.
But now that we have the worst sons on earth---and are once again the most unloved, disrespected invisible women on earth---the WHITES have stumbled upon a brilliant new way of destroying the Black Race, as they've now discovered the black man's weakness, which in turn becomes the black woman's weakness. Through our collective weakness, and the MIXED people born out of it (who of course don't want to lose their Mixed-ness and have every reason to fear authentic black women; the main ones who don't celebrate their birth), we are being literally ERASED.
So I'm with Dickerson. Black Women are going to have to find some MAN on earth, who has POWER...and who will celebrate their desirability---and it wouldn't hurt if he were WHITE, the most powerful of all.
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Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 95
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:15 pm: |
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Kola,
I agree that many of us are weak, but how did we get this way in the first place? Was it the chicken or the egg? In other words, was it the abuse of black/white men or not? I'm not saying it's all their fault but they're the main reason some of us are this way. Still I understand and agree that we need to stand up for ourselves and change our ways as well.
ABM,
Do you know why some black men are this way? If so, can you add to what Kola said?
Tonya |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 96
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:27 pm: |
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Kola,
Forget my last question because you answered it in your last post. I'm a slow typer so it's hard to keep up with your responses.
Tonya |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 400
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:35 pm: |
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Tonya---
Black women are WEAK because they come from African tribal societies.
The "MAN" is everything/the women--in groups of 3 and 4--are merely "backbones".
You would have to know the history of Africa to understand where this "servile" attitude in black women that isn't in White women comes from.
White Men, being conquerors of the world, have taught White women that all other women are to be their maids--and give birth to their children for the "White Cause", which is what we do.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3944
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 02:47 pm: |
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Kola,
I don’t know. I will admit to perhaps being to well-adjusted to spy the confusing rationale you and Debra appear to assert. But it just seems to me the notion of pleading with White men to want to bone you so that it might inspire Black men to want to love you is by it very nature profoundly flawed.
You’re going to rely upon the people who first taught you how to hate yourselves to love yourselves...by their pretending to love you?
Huh?
And of course White and other guys would hop onboard a sistah assuming such is permitting. But that ain’t got nothing to do with whether they’d want to date and marry you (And, not, I am NOT suggesting that you’re worthy of such mistreatment!).
I would much more appreciate and understand you and Debra demanding that BLACK media producers and personalities provide fairer, truer depiction of Black women. And I’d agree that Will Smith, Jamie Foxx and Martin Lawrence. should be made to rep the sistahs better than they do. But I can’t get with making Ashton Kulcher, Brad Pitt and Matt Damon responsible for doing that. That just doesn’t register within my brain.
And neither I nor most brothahs has solicited White women adopt some wholesale lovejones for brothahs. That’s really all THEIR doing, largely via the glorification of the Black phallus (which has been promoted MORE by Whites than us).
We brothahs are really just, kinda, here...takin’ what they’re givin’.
Hey, if some White, Asian or Latina babes going to give me some ‘cause I’m a brothah, my masculine nature is to “Hit it...”. Now, where you and I might concur, though, is a lot of brothahs might do better to then “...quit it and forget it.”
Lastly, I do share your views of the inherent dangers to Black people of widespread miscegenation. I just DON’T think that THAT is the argument that Dickerson is making. But then, why would she, her having a White husband and all.
Tonya,
The woman of the conqueror will ALWAYS be made the Belle of the Ball. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 401
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 05:52 pm: |
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I detest Debra Dickerson.
But just the same...
...I want what the Black Man and the White Woman already have.
I want...everyone...to want me.
In order for Black women to have HALF A CHANCE with a black man---this bullshit loyalty, exclusively to black men.....has to END.
Otherwise, black men don't feel like there's any real challenge or special value in having a black woman.
And I feel just as Dickerson feels about the movie.
That in no way means that I don't want Black women with Black men---I do want us together, and if I had my way, we would only love each other, but still--that's not Good Strategy for Black women. It simply means that I want.....the whole world....to finally acknowledge that Black women ARE WOMEN--beautiful, fuckable, motherly and marriageable just like all other women.
We'll never get there through the insecure Black Man.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3945
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 08:03 pm: |
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Kola says: "We'll never get there through the insecure Black Man."
ABM says: And you will get there a WHITE one? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 403
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 09:08 pm: |
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ABM says: And you will get there with an insecure a WHITE one?
KOLA: YES...especially an insecure White man.
Think about it.
And further more, there's a lot LESS insecure White men than black men.
The 3 biggest groups of insecure people on earth are Black Women, White Women and Black men.
Black men's self-hatred (and their PHOBIA about everybody in the room being "black") is what keeps black women invisible.
We need a new son.
And we need friends.
We need to be conscious...for ourselves, and to let Black men fend for themselves.
I'm sick of waiting on Black men.....and YOU, ABM, seem to ignore the fact that you (and your attitude in support of black women) is a rarity...not hardly the majority. It would good if we could CLONE you, but we can't.
You don't even have sons!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3946
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 09:03 am: |
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Kola,
I don't see any scenario whereby White men will help remedy your concerns. They're the ones who primarily engendered them.
If you want Brothahs to provide fairer depictions of Black women, you should promote picketing/boycotting of their movies, music (including recordings/concerts), publications, etc. When their a REAL threat to their money is presented, they'll begin to think TWICE about what they're doing. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 406
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 09:36 am: |
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I so emphatically disagree with you, ABM.
I think that almost ALL OF THE TIME when a black woman---especially a dark skinned black woman---gets her big break in life or is given a voice, it's almost always given to her by a WHITE man.
There are countless examples that bear this out, I won't go into them---but the Black women reading these posts KNOW it's true.
I try to plant a seed for the Black Man to someday exist.
But I don't believe he does RIGHT NOW.
I hate MOST of our men, right now.
The few that I like, such as yourself, Derrick Bell, Troy, etc.--I surround myself with as thought trying to keep my hands warm by a fire.
But I'm not stupid enough to not realize that MOST black men thoroughly hate me for no other reason than my skin is black and my hair is nappy, and that's TRUE.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3947
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:50 am: |
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Kola,
Preface: What follows does NOT refer to all White men.
I have long suspected that part of the reason why White men eschew pursuing Black women is because they fear not being capable of sexually satisfying you, thus you will quickly lose interest in your relationship and will inevitably return to the arms and the (vengeful) phallus of a brothah.
Of course you know Black women have for centuries been billed as these lascivious, insatiable sex beasts. And although these days such is seldom overly articulated, the sentiment behind that still lingers.
Also, how could they ever dare to satisfy the natural mate of the d*ck god?
I would think that those would prove quite daunting to even fairly self-confident, successful White (and Other) men.
You’ve been around (if you’d pardon the expression). What say you about what I posit? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3948
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:56 am: |
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Kola,
I'm not sure I agree that Black men so seldom extent a hand to darkers sistahs. But even if that is true, it's probably because 95% of the time, it's the White guys who own/control the breaks that are for the giving.
Again, if you want to make these guys more accountable, band together a few 1,000 darker sistahs on this issue and make a very PUBLIC issue of it. Perhaps doing so will embarrass these guys and the rest of us into acknowledging what we're doing to ourselves. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 408
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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Abm, you and I are two different subjects.
SEX...has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
And please...how much more PUBLIC can I be? I can't make everybody else stand up.
I can't discuss it any further, because it's making me sick.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3951
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
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Kola,
Huh?
"SEX" is what initiated this thread to begin with.
This whole thing started from Dickerson lamenting she and other Black women not being considered f*$%able by White men and how that has filtered down into the society and culture.
Yeah. Maybe you SHOULD chill on this one, babe. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 659
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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Interesting exchanges, you two. Here's something else to nibble on.
I was speaking about this article to a couple other parents of girls and we were saying how dismayed we were that in 2005 we have many White Disney princesses, a couple from the Middle East and India, an Asian one, a Native American one. No Black or African ones. (Lion King does not count.)
Regardless of whatever problems I may have with these depictions (like their inherent dishonesty, e.g., Pocahontas, or their continuing non-feminist actions), I still have to ask: Why is it that little Black girls cannot see themselves as reflected as worthy of that kind of attention, love, beauty?
The closest my daughters get to this are "The Bratz" which are various shades of ambiguous brown (but, they are, afterall, "brats"...) And Dora. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3952
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:11 pm: |
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'Vette,
Are you referring to Disney cartoons or any Disney media? Didn't Brandy portray Disney's Cinderella (and Whitney Houston her Fairy Godmother) a few years back? |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 660
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:25 pm: |
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I'm talking mostly about their "Princess" franchise, complete with movies and cross marketing up to ying-yang: dolls, nightgowns, notebooks, board games, dress up outfits, McDonald's Happy Meal toys, soundtrack albums, movie sequels, etc. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3953
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:33 pm: |
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'Vette,
Well. What kind of African or African American (or West Indies, Afro-European, etc.) character would you make where you a member of Disney's creative team?
Also, what are your views of Dickerson's essay? |
Tonya
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 02:10 pm: |
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One of the only movies that has included authentic looking black women was "The Color Purple" which was created by a white man. Also, the TV show "Girlfriends" which gives a positive portrayal of all black women was created by a white man as well.
Contrast this with black promoters:
Holly Berry- Got her big break through black men.
Jennifer Lopez- Black men
Jasmine Guy- Black men
Paula Abdul- Black men
Jada Pickett- Black men
And the list goes on.
In addition, most of the new female R&B singers today are promoted by black men.
Although I've yet to see an authenticly looking black women being promoted by a black man, I'm not sure if protesting this is the answer to demolishing colorism. This is much bigger than Will Smith and Martin Lawrence. It's our culture that inspires these men to be colorist. It's been said that television shows us who we are. In the case of colorism and the black community this is painfully true.
Tonya
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 661
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
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What kind of African or African American (or West Indies, Afro-European, etc.) character would you make where you a member of Disney's creative team?
I have seriously been thinking about just this issue, and talking about it with a few other parents of Black children (especially girls). I'm still formulating my thoughts. Right not I am committedd to doing something--I don't know exactly what, but something. I cannot wait around for others and just complain anymore.
I'll keep the board posted. Whatever I/we do the input, support, assistance of those of you here would be wonderful.
what are your views of Dickerson's essay?
I think as Kola stated, I do not agree with a lot (most) of her politics. (At least, what I am aware of her politics.) But I do very much relate to her experiences of invisibility and being perceived as not worthy of being desired. I do not know of many Black women in the US who could not point to at least one such experience.
How I dealt with it, was I decided a long time ago to just be my damn self. I did not care if Black men (or White men or any other man) thought I was too much of a "nerd" or too "intellectual" or not "submissive" enough or didn't wear the "right" kind of clothes or didn't get my nails done or wear my hair "correctly" or any other numerous things.
I decided I'd just "love myself--fiercely," and others' loss would be my gain to focus on my studies, my travels, my friendships, my reading, my family, etc. I figured if I went along in that manner, eventually someone might notice and take interst. As it turned out, someone did.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2431
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 11:20 am: |
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You go, girl! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 101
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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It's different when they think you're too black. But she's right about just being your damn self. |
Rustang
Veteran Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 71
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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I suppose that different people have different experiences,but I'd have to say that I would be amazed if I saw a woman that was clearly darker in complexion than my wife.Since we've been married for what most would consider quite a while,I guess that would speak louder than anything I could say about how I don't have any problem with dark complexions.Maybe she really was having trouble finding a guy and just had to settle.Of course,I feel like she couldn't have possibly found anyone better,since that guy that doesn't exist.Have I ever got around to mentioning how I'm really quite a catch?That's right.I'm a hell of a guy.
Yvette,you chose very wisely for a person of that age.Many girls don't do so well.When my daughter was in high school there was a very nice boy that lived a couple of doors down from us.Well behaved,good grades,hard worker,etc...I was extolling his virtues to her one day and she listened for a while.She then blew everything that I said about the boy right out of the water with the observation "The nigga's a goblin."I guess that was that.He never came up in conversation again.Although she did marry a fellow with all of those virtues.Minus the goblin thing,that this.But a lot of girls seem to end up with some sharp looking guy that has the manners of a Bulgarian swine herder,a room temperature I.Q.,and has never hit a lick of work in his life,so I'd have to say that you chose very wisely indeed. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 02:36 pm: |
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Rustang, your wife seems like a lucky woman.
Every woman deserves a king like yourself, so hopefully you're doing what you can to inspire others. The truth is, for the current generation, that even the "goblins" are the most color-struck amongst us.
Tonya
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Rustang
Veteran Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 72
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 07:59 pm: |
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Thank you,Tonya.That is very kind of you.As far as the current generation goes,I'm afraid that I've had to take the same view that the ruling class of white folks did about the hippies of the 60s,which was just ignore them entirely and go to work on the next generation.If you accept the premise that the objective was to have a middle class that is dumber than a coal bucket,then the policies and trends of the 70s,80s and 90s make perfect sense.A stupid middle class is always a worthwhile objective for the ruling class.Poor people fight revolutions but peolple of the middle class are always the organizers of one.This generation pretty much has it's preferences and values carved in stone by now.We should be applying whatever influence we might have as individuals on the next generation and just scratch this one off of the list of things to waste time on.It is not possible,in my opinion,to cause the major sort of shift in perception required to bring about a change that profound in the fundemental values of millions of adults.My kid was raised better than that,and my grandchildren will be also.That's about all that I can do.But what was just one guy with some odd ideas 40 years ago is now about half a dozen people with some odd ideas,and if the progression continues with the granchildren marrying and having kids with odd ideas it'll just start snowballing.That's what I'm pulling for anyway. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 08:11 pm: |
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That's sad but true, Rustang. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 418
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 08:22 pm: |
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I love Rustang, don't you? Him and ABM and Chris and Annuaki are SOOOOO cool.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 106
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 09:09 pm: |
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That last post made me realize something that I guess I didn’t want to recognize before. I’ve been working hard to get my generation to see how blemished we are. I attend meetings and organizations that’s suppose to get young people to understand their worth as African Americans. Sometimes I ask myself why I do it, because things don’t seem to be changing. It never dawned on me that it’s not going to change for my generation, until now. That was probably the most insightful post that I’ve read thus far.
Thanks Rustang.
Kola you're right, he is cool.
Tonya
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3959
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 06:00 am: |
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'Vette,
I am happy that your way has worked out well for you.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2435
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Rustang is cool; his way with words has a certain cadence; he's like a senior citizen rapper.
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Rustang
Veteran Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 73
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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Now you ladies are just embarrasing me.I prefer to think of myself as a non-young citizen.One of the advantages of being in the post adolescent phase of life(there aren't many)is that I've had the opportunity to see a whole bunch of different people screw up a whole bunch of different ways and could extropolate a sweeping generality from what the individuals did.I seldom bring anything new to the table.It's just that sometimes I see the difference between what folks are looking at and what folks see.They're rarely the same. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 632
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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"I'm not angry. I'm hurt. It's not that I want White men to want me. I want all men to want me."-DD
To me, that sums up the entire piece she wrote. Her point is (completely) crystal clear. She wants equal respresentation of black women in the media--and in 'life'. It's so beyond being (merely) sexually attractive to men, it's about the essence of her womanhood being respected.
Interesting read!
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 423
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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MOON--you are absolutely On Point.
Thank you so much.
That's what I was trying to say to ABM. Which has nothing to do with sex.
But Black men are like so totally insensitive when they have to {think} about a Black woman--because it goes back to Dickerson's point---the "society" itself sees black women as mules and not women, including black men.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 110
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 07:18 pm: |
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Kola,
I guess the next step to becoming recognizable is going to white men and asking them to make us whole--which should put black men to shame. I know you say that we need to give birth to a new king, but what else can we do while we wait for him (the new king) to take his throne?
Tonya
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 424
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 07:49 pm: |
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Tonya,
I fully expect that many Black women will have no other options available to them than White or Latino men. That's obvious.
Going to white men and asking them to make us whole, however...is sort of a ridiculous statement...especially since they are NOT WHOLE.
But they do have POWER.
POWER is what Black women lack, which is why we're the lowest humans on the food chain.
More often than not---when Black Men have POWER, they use it to woo other women or...to hurt us (because we're the only people they have the power to hurt--which makes them feel even more powerful).
Steven Spielberg used his POWER to affirm black women when he made "The Color Purple". Cornel Chesney, a black man, used his POWER to affirm black women when created Door of Kush to publish my firebombed books.
Black women shouldn't "wait" for anyone to do anything. I would marry a white man or a latin if I felt that I needed a man that bad.
But I'm burnt out on men PERIOD.
When I say give birth to a new son---I mean a myriad of things, many of which don't have anything to do with having a baby. But many Black women just seem to be dumb as rocks.
For instance, they don't recognize that REVOLUTION and MOVEMENT comes through "MALE" aggression---in other words, SONS.
And these women coddle and create their sons in the image of the society's needs--instead of their needs as black women. They let the t.v. raise their kids---completely ignoring that the entire society is against their existense.
You see these Black women and girls walking around in front of black children with BLOND hair in their heads--fake blue eyes. These stupid, pathetic black women who've never been raised.
Many Black women think like SLAVES and they raise their children to go along with the general okeedoke--these women want their kids to attend "the best schools", "live in the best whitest neighborhoods"--be seen as "people" and not a "color"......and all the while, what they're wishing for "assimilation". Then they don't understand why they feel so empty and left behind when their "white acculturated" children go on to live the American dream----a dream which prohibits "black women" as a WHOLE fully black human being.
I often feel so disconnected from Black American women---because they refuse to see that POWER is the key to any society. They care too much what "white people" think........they put the black man on a pedestal, just like African women do---destroying themselves so that he can prosper.
They're too busy in some church whoop'n and holler'n and waiting for miracles to fall from the Sky. HIDING BEHIND "the church, Jesus".
Which is why I bear my BLACK breasts publically. POWER.
And tell the truth about what I think (instead of protecting and covering for sorry ass black men and self-destructive black women). POWER.
Everything I do....HONORS ME.
Fuck white men...fuck white women...fuck black men....
Fuck anybody who can't see me...as I see myself.
If you can find a good white man, Tonya, who is offering you something real....be good to him and go with him.
Deep down inside, everyone in this society knows the reason why you're with a White man....just as they know the truth about so many black men are with anything but a black woman.
The only people "delusioned" about the truth...are Black men.
And they've been delusional for a thousand years. That's how they sold their own children into slavery.
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 09:05 pm: |
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Is the situation between black men and black women becoming so bad that SOME of you sisters would consider dating or marrying a white man? I think that is so terrible. White men have no respect and love for black woman, especially here in America. As far as black men dating women of other races, you all must know by now that women all over the world love black men. A lot of black men in America who date white women are doing it to upset white men, because not so long ago, black men were lynched for even looking at a white woman. So, a lot of brothers see dating white women as a pay back for what was done to black men in the past and there's not a damn thing white men can do about it. Last but not least, black women must take a long look at themselves and change their stupid ass attitude, which is what's causing black men to date white women. Some black women think it's cool to have a nasty attitude, but you all better wake up or one day you will find yourselves old and lonely. |
Snakegirl
Newbie Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 21
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 09:13 pm: |
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Tanya, let's just not respond to him.
Whatever you do. Ignore him from here on out.
Maybe he'll go away.
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Rustang
Veteran Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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First let me agree that king boy here is not someone that should be taken seriously.To Tonya I would like to say,and this might take a minute so bear with me,this.The solution of actively going after any sort of person because of what they are instead of who they are is not a very good plan for a number of reasons.This entire thread is dealing with a subject that has yet to be clearly stated,so here it is.Everybody,independent of gender,race or ethnicity,has the basic need to love and to be loved.It is the most natural thing in the world to want to be cared about and appreciated for what you are.To find someone that you can care for,appreciate the good in them and overlook their human frailties,accept the entire package and be happy with it,and that will feel the same way about you is a very special thing indeed.Many people never find this in their life.It isn't about sex.It isn't about money.It's about experiencing the human warmth of loving and being loved.The lengths to which people will go to have the illusion of this in their lives is astonishing.They will endure all sorts of abusive,degrading treatment as long as the sham can remain intact.When the reality of the situation finally crashes in,they turn to something to anesthitize the pain,like booze,drugs or yet another bad relationship.But,along with that need to love and be loved most people seem to carry a fair quantity of baggage in the form of guilt,shame or fear and that causes them to have the idea that they somehow don't quite measure up.It's like the whole world seems to have something figured out and I'm the only one that just doesn't get it.As if they knew some secret but they just won't tell me what it is.That gives me that feeling that if they really knew how I am they wouldn't accept me,so I can try to mazk that fear with all sorts of weird behavior.When you see these younger brothers with all of their gangsta,thug 'lifestyle'or whatever they choose to call it,what lies beneath,and a lot closer to the surface than they care to admit,is a scared,lonely child trying to fill that need to love and be loved.
That need is met on a case by case individual basis.It can't be legislated into existence.There is no seminar to attend,no class to take.The person for you might indeed turn out to be a white dude.He might also turn out to be black or asian.Whatever he turns out to be one thing is for sure.It will be a specific indicidual with his own set of hopes,dreams,fears,assets and liabilities.A guy with a name and address.A guy that loves you.Not a randomly selected member of a given demographic block.No one should short change themselves like that.You will be amazed by how quickly your age will turn into my age.Then you start to realize that there is no destination,it's all about the ride.Look within yourself and discover what it is you really want,and what,if anything,is standing between you and your heart's desire.I think that it was Sun Tzu that said know yourself,know your opponent.I find things to be much simpler when I'm both of those guys. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 111
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 11:15 pm: |
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Kola/Rustang, gotcha both. Thanks.
Tonya |
Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 11:36 pm: |
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Rustang,
I am definitely a black man who should be taken serious. I am a strong brother and i do not chase after white women. I just think it is so sad to see black women who walk around with an attitude, thinking they are being strong, but in reality they are chasing away the good black men like myself. If i say something that you all don't like please don't get upset with me or ignore me. I am only saying what i feel. I LOVE black women with all my heart. |
Jackie
Regular Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 42
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 11:45 pm: |
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WOW KING MAN, What a broad brush. First of all, why would anyone take you seriously when you're generalizing. I meet women of all races with attitudes so therefore it has nothing to do with their race. What an insult to say that black women have attitudes. What's wrong with you ? |
Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:11 am: |
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Jackie,
If you are African American like myself, you know black women in America have an attitude problem. I would also say that the black man is not taking care of his responsibilty in the home which is destroying our families. I am not here to offend anyone, but the truth hurts. I am sure there are women of other races with an attitude. I was simply saying black women have an attitude because it's causing a lot of black men to seek white women. And if that continues to happen, we as black people will no longer exist in America, We would be walking around calling ourselves black, but be looking like Puerto Ricans. |
Jackie
Regular Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 43
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:19 am: |
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Well, first let's clarify something, let's use the phrase "bad attitude" because everyone has an attitude. Anyhow, I beg to differ about your categorization of black women in America. Maybe the black women that you've encountered have bad attitudes. Yes the truth does hurt, but you're not speaking the truth. You're generalizing just like most ignorant people do. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 425
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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Black King supposedly came here as an admirer of "Kola Boof"...
...but I don't think he will be an admirer of mines for very long.
I really don't agree with anything he's said since he's been here.
But I do agree with his admonition that he should be able to say what he really feels. He's right---and I was wrong to tell people to ignore him.
He says that he loves black women. But then look at the way he expresses it---with the ultimatum that we'd better take what we can get and be happy with it.
Some other shit he said:
So, a lot of brothers see dating white women as a pay back for what was done to black men in the past and there's not a damn thing white men can do about it.
By marrying white women--which hurts black women; breaks down the black community and obliterates the black man's seed.......he's getting back at the white man?
In other words---the destruction and erasure of the Black People---is paying back the white man.
No wonder the white man is the KING of this planet.
It seems to me that if black men and black women formed strong families and tight knit communities...THAT would be getting back at the white man.
He also said:
White men have no respect and love for black woman,
Well whatever they have for Black women...it's very often a hell of a lot more than Black men have for us.
And the latino and white man do think we're prettier than you do....they do say things to make us feel like women....they don't have the stereotypes about us that you do....and last but not least....
...white and latino men really are much better in bed than what our black fathers told us.
More from Black American King:
Last but not least, black women must take a long look at themselves and change their stupid ass attitude, which is what's causing black men to date white women. Some black women think it's cool to have a nasty attitude, but you all better wake up or one day you will find yourselves old and lonely.
Bullshit. Before you dated "white women"---you had a fixxation on High Yellow women. This color-coding has been going on for centuries now with BLACK MEN. Any woman that you could use...to wipe the black off your asses, you placed her above your own BLACK mother's image--whether it was a porky Yellow girl or a High Yaller or a club foot Indian or whatever the fuck it took, you have ALWAYS judged black women by the COLOR of their skin and not the content of their character.
So don't blame the insecurity and self-loathing of the Black Man us.
FUCK YOU!!
You chase, love and choose THE WHITE MAN'S MOTHER, because you hate yourself, which makes you hate US. You hate us for having nappy hair, for being black, for being everything that creates YOUR SORRY BLACK ASSES.
You betray, distrespect and kill the image of your own mother and then try to blame it on her.
YOU ARE SATAN...not the white man. YOU ARE!!
There is NOTHING wrong with black women that love and attention wouldn't cure in 2 seconds.
So tell that your fucking "brothers".
Take that shit and whisper it in the ears of these two faced White Bitches who lie and nod to your every Pimp-worded paragraph about how the mean evil black women drove you away.
Yeah, FUCK YOU!!!
If black women hate your black asses...then it's still not HALF AS MUCH as they should!!
And I'm too old to care about how you feel.
More than anything---as an African woman, I feel ashamed and embarrassed of Black men.
You say that every race of woman in the world loves and wants black men....but what are you without my love and respect? Not a goddamned thing!
You think we're impressed? Seeing you with a woman who can't even reproduce our RACE?
You look more like a fucking nigger now than you ever did!
Fuck YOU!!!
No, you don't like Kola Boof.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 426
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:24 am: |
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I hope that's enough attitude for your fucking ass!
I'm so sick of you wimp whining motherfuckers I don't know what to do!!!
A nation full of punk bitch ass nigger boys!
BRING ME A FUCKING MAN!
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:48 am: |
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LOL Kola,
I really do love and admire you for your bravery and honesty.I love ALL of you sisters. When i said black men date white women for what was done in the past, i didn't mean i date white women myself. I love full lips and wide hips and u know as well as i do that white women just don't have that.LOL..Kola, please calm down, my Nubian Queen, you are upset with the wrong brother. I wanna see black men and black women build strong and powerful relationships. |
Rustang
Veteran Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 75
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:50 am: |
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Kola,you need to quit beating around the bush and go ahead and say what's really on your mind.Tell us how you really feel about this brother. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 427
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 12:56 am: |
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Black King, you have made me cry.
I just don't belong in this country.
As soon as I get some real money, I'm getting my sons the fuck out of here.
I believed in God before I came to America.
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 01:10 am: |
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Kola,
Please forgive me sister. I hope i didn't really make you cry. You are our Nubian sister and of course you belong here with us. WE, as Black Amerians need more STRONG African sisters like yourself to unite with us and help us with the struggle. Please don't give up on us, we need your bravery and honesty. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 428
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 01:36 am: |
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I am NOT a Nubian.
I am Nilotic (Cushitic Hermetic).
Sunni Egypto and Waaq Oromo
with some Felasha.
Please quit all the flattery Black King.
I'm just a normal woman, not much different from the other women here. You don't need me--that's all in your mind. But I want so desperately to connect with Black American women, because I really like and admire them.
Yes...you DID make me cry. I would not just say that.
Why do Americans call EVERYBODY a fuck'n Nubian?
There's only 100,000 of them left and they're all in North Sudan. I am NOT a Nubian.
Black American people come from West African Kingdoms. Not Nubia.
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 01:46 am: |
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Once again, i truly apologize for making you cry. I feel so bad right now, please forgive me. I thought you were a Nubian, thanks for correcting me. And yes we do NEED you, because i don't see other sisters like yourself speaking the truth about Black America. I am so happy to know that you wanna connect with Black America.Just curious but why are you so interested in Black Americans? I have never been to Africa, but i definitely plan on visiting but i have no idea which country i should visit yet. When i do visit, i wanna be truly accepted as a brother. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 429
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 01:54 am: |
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I was adopted and raised by Black Americans. I feel that I AM a Black American. Don't I sound like one?
Here is a video about my life, you just watch it on your computer:
http://doorofkush.50megs.com/about.html
To be such a Kola fan, you sure don't know much about me.
Exactly how old are you?
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 430
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:02 am: |
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You should go to Senegal.
That is where the majority of your ancestors come from...and they LOVE Black Americans there. You will be accepted as a "brother" right away.
Visit Gambia while in Senegal (Banjul is the home of the mother of the Black Americans, Queen Tinka Tekur II)
Then go to Ghana, Mali and Niger.
Then go to Congo.
Then go to East Africa (Kenya, Ethiopia, Somalia and Uganda)
Then go to Egypt last.
Then you will come back with everything you need to know.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 431
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:07 am: |
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Don't go to South Africa.
The people have a slave mentality. Which is why AAs love them so much, but don't go there. It's too much like your own reality, nothing new.
Don't go to Sudan--it's not safe (although, both Cush and Nubia are in Sudan, but only the ruins remain and you might get killed in Sudan by accident).
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:13 am: |
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I really love you and i am a big fan of yours. For some reason i was thinking all of the people in Sudan were Nubians. A couple years ago i came across your site and i do remember you saying you were adopted by Black Americans,so now i see why you feel so close to Black Americans. I am 34. Thanks for the wonderful information. I had no idea that most of my ancestors came from Senegal and i have never heard of Queen Tinka Tekur II. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 432
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:26 am: |
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Queen Tinka Tekur II's sons were the first slaves of New York and Vermont.
Her daughters were slaves in Barbados and South Carolina.
Her sister, Queen Ambulla, was a slave in Jamaica.
TinkaTekur was put to death for killing a class full of Dutch children after her own 8 children were kidnapped from the beach.
She was burned alive at the stake in the 1600s.
____________
So you are 34 and live in California.
Now that's interesting.
But tell me...WHY do you really love me? For what?
And how come you don't know much about me?
HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT ME?
Have you read any of my books?
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 433
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:27 am: |
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What made you just pop up at this message board?
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:06 am: |
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LOL...I say i love you because you really seem to care about black people and especially Black Americans. Yes,i am 34 but i was born and raised in Mississippi. I came to California in 1985, but i don't really like the culture here. My heart is still in the south. I always like to research Africa's history and that's how i first came across your name and site and began to know a little about you. I don't know much about you, but i just love how you speak the truth about Black Americans. Black Americans are afraid to stand up and speak the truth, but you speak the truth no matter what people say and i admire that. No, i haven't read your books yet. I was on the internet and somehow i came across this board and i loved the topics that are discuussed here. So, about 2 days i decided to join but it has not been a good start for me and i hope it gets better over time if you all don't run me away...LOL |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 434
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:12 am: |
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Well, of course we won't run you away.
I love Mississippi.
What part are you from?
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 435
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:13 am: |
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Now where in California do you live?
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:20 am: |
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I live in northern California, not far from Oakland. The part i am from in Mississippi was not even a town, it was just open country, but the nearest town to my area is named Forest, which is about a 30 minute drive from Jackson, Miss. Jackson is the capitol. Mississippi, is probably still the most racist state in the country. Have you ever been there? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 436
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:28 am: |
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Yes, I've been to Mississippi. I really liked it.
I was in Jackson and went through the southern part of the state to several towns.
I loved the sea food and soul food. They have a lot of very very dark skinned beautiful people there. Exquisite looking blue blacks--which is a treat for someone from Sudan.
Have you been to Biloxi?
I didn't notice the racism too much.
Oakland is very far from me.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 437
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:29 am: |
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I believe that ABM is from Mississippi.
Not sure.
He is my favorite poster here.
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Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:41 am: |
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I'm glad you liked it, southern people are nice and friendly. Yes, soul food is very good and i miss eating it so much. No, i have never been to Biloxi. In the south you will see a lot of dark skinned African Americans. A few years ago i was watching a brother from Nigeria on BET and he was saying when he went to South Carolina he saw a lot of African Amercians who looked like people he knew in Nigeria. I hope one day to learn a West African language and learn how to play African drums. Whenever i hear those African drums, i just love it, it sounds so good. Do you know of any sites where i could listen to African drums? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3962
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:48 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
What "essence of [a Black woman's] womanhood" should be "respected" other than her sexuality? (And I am asking this of YOU who've often espouse some VERY pro-feminist thoughts here.)
Kola,
How many films have Steven Spielberg and other White movie producers/directors made before/after "The Color Purple" that have done as admirable job of honoring the lives of Black women (as you define such to be)?
White men have ALL the money/power in Hollywood (and the media as a whole). They can make ANY movies they want.
Don't you think that if White guys gave a dayam about rep'ing the sistahs the RIGHT way, they would have done a HELLOFALOT more of such than they've done by now? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 438
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:09 pm: |
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ABM, you really need to can it.
Especially considering that when BLACK MEN make movies---which is several times per year---their track record is MUCH worse.
White men give us films that are actually ABOUT black women's real lives and experiences:
"The Color Purple"
"Jackie Brown"
"The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman"
"What's Love Got to Do With it?"
A white man cast Esther Rolle in "GOOD TIMES"--as the wife and mother. Black man would NEVER have done that--regardless of the fact that so many wives and mothers look like her.
I'm totally AGAINST you on this.
The new film by John Singleton, "Four Brothers" is a GLOWING example of how Black Men routinely make films where black women don't exist.
If she does--she's usually a high yellow woman, a dark woman is either the villain or the old saintly Grandmother.
Is there a SINGLE Black American who noticed the BLATANT colorism in John Singleton's film "RoseWood". NO---because these fuckers over here are such white supremacists, they can't see!
Even many of the Spike Lee films have made--black women...AUTHENTIC black women are horribly represented.
He had the nerve, the gall to put down Quentin Tarantino for making "Jackie Brown" (one of the best films ever made about a black woman)---then he comes out with this "Girl 6" bullshit; although I liked it because of Theresa Randle and the other women in the cast---but as usual, it totally portrayed a BOGUS relationship between black men and black women in the entertainment biz. As Spike isn't MAN ENOUGH to get to the real issues of a Black woman's life--he tries to pretend that "White men" are our obstacle to finding ourselves.
Ousmane Sembene is the ONLY Black man on earth who cares enough about Black women enough to really capture their essence and souls--not to mention their beauty, undiluted---in motion pictures.
I didn't say that White men gave a damn about repp'n sisters.
But BROTHERS don't give fuck about sisters.
Who in the hell are you fooling? Shit.
I see more women who look LIKE ME in the music videos made by WHITE and LATINO men.
So what are you talking about??
Shit.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 439
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:12 pm: |
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You know what.
I'm so sick of you snide, selfish Black American fuckers.
Don't ask me shit else.
I HATE ALL OF YOU BASTARDS!! GET THE FUCK ON AND DON'T TALK TO ME!!
If you can't understand how I feel---then NEVER will.
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West_africa
Newbie Poster
Username: West_africa
Post Number: 25
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:17 pm: |
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False. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 633
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 03:33 pm: |
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Abm,
I believe a woman's "essence" is a combination of her spirituality, intellect, passion and physical well-being. Obviously, because each and every woman walks a different path, each story, and the way a woman's "essence" is projected into the world, will vary.
Pro-feminist thoughts, feelings and actions protect women when men don't.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 112
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 04:08 pm: |
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What "essence of [a Black woman's] womanhood" should be "respected" other than her sexuality?
What the Fuck!!!!!! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 113
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 04:13 pm: |
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And why the hell is a white woman being asked that question?!!!!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3963
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 04:32 pm: |
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Kola,
White men are the ONLY only ones who approve the production of major motion pictures.
The ONLY ONES.
Not Denzel Washington.
Not Eddie Murphy.
No Will Smith.
Not even Spike Lee.
So what you see coming from Hollywood is the result of what WHITE MEN want. If they to ANY degree cared about what you're espousing, THAT would be evident amid what's released every friggin' Friday.
Yes. White men might have made a FEW token gestures with as you describe above. But they PALE in paltry comparison to the 1,000's of OTHER films they've created that present Black Women in the more degrading, demeaning, and invisible light.
Moreover, you surely know better than I do that the VAST majority of CASTING that's done in Hollywood for all movies, even thoughs that feature Black stars, is done by WHITES. And many of the White casting agents will quite arrogantly assert that THEY are prepared to cast more authentic cinematic portrayals of Blacks than even BLACK foks are.
DESTINED's sister, niece and friends are actresses (several of them co-starred in Bernie Mack's recent "Guess Who") and my brother-in-law is a movie/TV producer (He's done awardwinning work with Mack, Cedric the Entertainer, "The Barber Shop" movies, etc.)
I know what the freak I'm talking about here.
Now, I would agree with you that Black stars and directors should extert more influence in how movies are cast. But I think they as a procedure/process are much LESS involved in such activities as you might expect.
White movie executive say: "Let's make a movie."
Black movie executive: "Let's go ask White men if we can make a movie."
And don't get so angry, girl. You know, right or wrong, you still mah nickah!
Moonsigns,
Okay. But Now tell the truth: Was all that "woman's 'essence'" stuff SUPPOSE to be reflected in a movie who's primary objective was to glorify indiscriminant skirtchasin'?
And are you saying a good man trumps Gloria Steinem rhetoric handsdown? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 114
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:03 pm: |
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First of all,
The white feminist movement was for white women, and white women only,so how can any white women, who doesn't know my experience, know anything about my womanhood (or essence for that matter).
And Secondly,
Although black men don't have executive power, they just happen to be the biggest promoters on the planet. They can promote a bag of sticks if they wanted to. Instead, they prefer to promote white and white looking women.
Tonya
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 663
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:14 pm: |
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Black movie executive: "Let's go ask White men if we can make a movie."
Then, they need to stop asking and start doing. I have no first hand knowledge of the entertainment biz. But these days there are fewer excuses than at any other time in movie-making history: With a few thousand dollars of equipment and software and a well designed (and simply designed) web site any upstart can get a leg up in making the movie and catching a "buzz" through viral marketing.
This goes for Black men (more who already have a "leg up") and for Black women--or any one else! I see what you;re saying AMB. I do not mean to speak for Kola. But for me, I expect so much from Black men, and so it is hurtful to see them use what little power they have to further denigrate us.
I do not think it is simply a matter of the "White men" saying they *can't* display different images of Black women. I think they are displaying exactly what they mean/want to display. And I think it shows their "issues" with Black women: mothers who have died, potential girlfriends who rejected them because they were too "nerdy" or didn't belong to the right (or any) fraternity, whatever.
On the other hand, I do not expect too much from White male directors. Which makes their (sometimes) successful attempts to portray a wider range of Black female characters more noticible, if not more "honorable." (For example, often I think that in WHite men's films, we Black women "stand for" or are metaphors for something else...but that's another story.)
One example--I know you all are going to stone me for this blatant showing of "colorism"--but one TV series that has been backed by a White man (Kelsey Grammer) is "Girlfriends." Yeah, it's a cast full of mixed women. But it seems like these women have been given full reign to create much more complex characters than in some other shows (*cough*The Parkers*cough*). |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 115
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:14 pm: |
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And lastly,
I don't give a FUCK who yo nigga is, umma give my god damn opinion!!!
Tonya
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2436
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:50 pm: |
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In regard to the image aspect of this subject, why is the focus limited to Hollywood's ouput? There is a thriving industry churning out the made-for-TV movies that appear on cable networks under the auspices of STARZ and BET. The black actresses in these low-budget but well-made films are on a par with white actresses; they are neither exploited or demeaned, but simply cast in true-to-life roles. I would also venture to say that blacks play very prominent roles in the casting, directing, and producing of these films. And, of course, black actresses get their props on the daily soap operas. True, these women are not plain, ordinary looking females, but then neither are any of the white actresses. Or are any of the handsome hunks playing opposite them just average Joes. If you want to talk about "essence", that is the essence of this arm of the entertainment business. It's about dream girls and hearthrobs. About escapism. Feminism is grounded in reality. Grim reality, |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3964
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:55 pm: |
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'Vette,
Yes. These days it is fairly easy to make a movie. But movies have to be DISTRIBUTED and SOLD or...GASP!...they won't make any money. And the vast majority of movie theatres, movie marketing apparatus, newpapers, periodicals...all that feeds into the moviemaking machine...is WHITE-OWNED.
But I agree it is NOT just about White men demand that non-Black looking women be cast.
And if you read some of my prior posts, you will see that I said the onus should placed on Black men and that perhaps one of the ways to compel brothas to do more is to pickett/boycott their work.
Hey. If you REALLY don't dig Will Smith french-kissing latinas in his next movie, then picket outside one of his homes or movie sets. I'll BET he starts to think TWICE about doing that stuff.
I don't much at all disagree with Dickerson and Kola to the extent they decry the infair presentation (or lack there of) of Black women. Where, however, we part company is how to ADDRESS the problem.
I just don't see appealing to the good graces of WHITE MEN, who have as much as ANYONE have STARTED these colorist problems, will do much at all to champion their resolution.
I DEFINITELY think there some serious revenge-of-the-nerds things going on in Hollywood, though I don't think Black men are unique in this regard.
For instance, notice how you often see the strangest looking White male stars with the most gorgeous White female stars. THAT's got geek-city all over it.
So, yes, I agree some of this is manifesting amongst those few Black men who score some Hollywood juice. They're getting the hotties (White, White-like, Asian, Hispanic, etc.) they couldn't get when they were in high school.
And I think the woman who plays the Lynn character on Girlfriends is married to one of the shows main producers (or he's its director). Thus, maybe the women have more control and influence over what goes on than they might otherwise have.
And I doubt the show's star a daughter of Diana Ross's would feel compelled to do ANYTHING she didn't want to do.
But PLEASE don't get me started on the Parkers! UUGGHH!
Tonya,
Be patient and strong. Because if you work some really long/arduous hours, you can be my nickah too. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 116
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 06:26 pm: |
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I couldn't help it, man, I just came unglued. I even used the word "goddamn", which I hate doing, so I'm sorry.
Tonya |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 440
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:28 pm: |
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ABM,
Why don't YOU...and BLACK men LIKE YOU---get out there and do the picketing for us?
Obviously...it's not US that you really want to see, because after 25 years of the Hip Hop Era, you (or men like you) haven't stood up for us ONCE.
Yet and still...you expect us to have to some animosity towards the WHITE MAN...who has done so much more for BLACK women when it comes to media images.
Angela Bassett sat up on The Charlie Rose Show and said straight out that she had been around for years and years (her 20's)---but started her FILM career so late (30's), because BLACK MALE directors/Producers/ETC. could not see where to cast her. She was too "dark" and her features were too "thick".
She said that if it weren't for WHITE MEN...she would never have gotten her big breaks...AFTER WHICH...after which....Spike Lee and John Singleton realized that yes!, a woman as dark as her who could ACT on par with Cicely Tyson...really could play the PRETTY wife and mother role.
That's a fucking disgrace!
But I give it to Bill Cosby--he did give us Robin Givens and a BLACK MAN (you all know the actor) went on to cast Robin in "RAGE IN HARLEM".
And Cicely Tyson has also lamented that WHITE MEN allowed to her to become the very first Black Woman in HISTORY (in the 1950's!!!) to model and appear on television wearing an AFRO and playing a "pretty black girl". In the 1960's, she continued--but she started in the late 50s. BLACK MEN, on the other hand, mumbled horribly behind her back.
BLACK MEN ALWAYS questioned...WHY was she being cast as the love interest in films of the 1960's--check her sexy role in "The V.I.P.s" wearing an AFRO and a mini-skirt.
Notice that although Cicely Tyson was THE major Black Actress of the 1970's---Sidney Poitier never once asked to have her as his leading lady---but for the film in which he falls in love with an African Princess (a role that the STUDIO WHITE MEN wanted to cast Cicely in)---he went out and got a HIGH YELLOW woman and had them paint her darker.
But ABM wants us to loathe WHITE MEN.
Wesley Snipes--had his dark chocolate beautiful co-star N'BUSHE WRIGHT written out of his "BLADE" movies once the first one was a blockbuster hit. He didn't want to have to be tied to a romance with a BLACK WOMAN in every movie-----but in the Comic Book that the movie is based on, N'Bushe's character and Blade become a dynamic duo in both love and action.
SO YOU SEEE....if it wasn't for WHITE MEN....us dark black women would not have NAOMI CAMPBELL, we would not have IMAN...God in heaven KNOWS...we would not have Alek Wek.
Although Black men will readily FUCK those women of African beauty and heritage-----they won't promote, hype and AFFIRM them to the world.
I swear to GOD...if you ever see a deep dark SEXY beautiful black woman cast in a movie...it's ALWAYS a WHITE director who stuck her up there.
Look at "Star Trek" and Uhura. Look at "Beyond the Valley of the Dolls" which featured the most beautiful dark ebony black woman I've ever seen.
WHITE MEN cast them...and BLACK MEN wouldn't.
Because Black American men, in GENERAL, are the most COLORSTRUCK, self-hating, openly intra-racist men ON EARTH.
And yet we're supposed to loathe and be angry with WHITE MEN out of some sick loyalty to their Black asses.
A foreign Black man---gave us Lauryn Hill. Thank you Wyclef...and his own wife is an authentic black woman, too. So maybe there's hope.
Denzel and Samuel married authentic Black women...and Denzel has DEMANDED, almost always, that his leading ladies be black. In 40 films, I can only think of 4 or 5 where his leading lady wasn't a black woman.
But these are exceptions to the...RULE.
Because the fact remains.....that the VAST MAJORITY of Black people in the United States are Black and Nappyheaded, so it would be NORMAL if most of our screen couples were also Black and Nappyheaded.
WHITE MEN and WHITE WOMEN use this as the explanation that they almost ALWAYS pair their images together in anything they do. They say---but this is how we live and look.
You never see a White man and White woman GOING OUT OF THEIR WAY to provide "diverse coupling" for their white offspring...you never see them denigrating WHITENESS and white beauty.
However, Black Men are the opposite. They almost ALWAYS portray themselves as "black" but are almost NEVER (and I mean NEVER) paired with an authentic Black woman. THIS IS HOW WE TRAIN OUR SONS...to imitate their father's behavior....because little boys grow up and do what they saw their fathers do. And little REJECTED black girls grow up to wear Blond hair weaves and fake blue eyes...desperate for their father's attention.
If the son's fathers were always chasing White women--then they EXCLUSIVELY date/mate with White women, because children grow up and become their parents.
Little Black girls grow up and become the COMPLAINING, unloved, displaced Black Women that were complaining about this shit 20 years ago!
In this way...Colorism KILLS US. Literally wipes our black asses out of existense, as our kids grow up and worship what we have worshipped.
I agree with Debra Dickerson and I TOTALLY feel...all the time...what she feels, as a black woman.
And my dear ABM----after chatting with so many WHITE MEN on the issue of colorism and how white supremacy disallows dark skin black women to represent "blackness"---I find that WHITE MEN are far more easier to talk to about this subject, they do not bury their heads in denial or start calling black women "evil, attitude bitches" for telling the TRUTH.....
...and you will also find
....that many Black men LIE about "White men" forcing them to cast light skinned actresses or to have white women in their music videos.....FRANKLY, the white executives often don't care one way or the other what skin tone the "girl" lead is...
Black men mainly want to impress other Black men--so they try to find the most EXOTIC Hawaii-look'n girl or WHite looking---they do that shit THEMSELVES.
Will Smith ALWAYS wanted to do a love scene with Eva Mendes. But he blamed it on the studio.
Michael Jordan says he had NO PROBLEM casting dark skinned Thereasa Randle as his wife in that live action movie he made with Bugs Bunny.
There is a WHITE MAN NOW..trying to shop my "Volcano Woman" superhero t.v. movie project...and although I started out with a Black man....it's the WHITE one who shares my vision and fights for it to be made the way that I envisioned it----and the only white woman in the whole movie is the evil villain "Poodle Woman", who I beat the living shit out of!!
___________________________
For "Dark Skinned" women seeking fair representation of their IMAGES in the media----WHITE MEN are not the problem.
The problem is that WHITE WOMEN and BLACK MEN are often the people that "Black Media" is left up to. The casting of black films are almost ALWAYS cast by a White Woman or a Black man--or BOTH.
In all the years that my novels, books have been submitted to the TOP PUBLISHERS in New York City---the editors are always either WHITE WOMEN or they are Black Editors whose WHITE WOMAN BOSS feels "disturbed" by the story of a black woman...and can't go forward unless we lighten this girl up or change her into a White woman's view.
White men have ALWAYS been good to me.
I simply CHOSE Black Men to be in charge of me and stayed in the Black Community, because I did not want to do it IMAN's way.
But DAMN. The shit is getting worse and worse for black women.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 634
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 09:12 pm: |
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Tonya,
If you read my first post, I completely agree with the point that Debra D. made.
When I speak of a woman's "essence", any woman's "essence", it is rather general. Obviously, I don't know you (personally) or every other woman on the planet, however, I believe there are principles/energies that are gender specific (and for good reason--they balance out one another--male and female).
While I can't totally relate to EVERY experience you've had, especially as a Black woman, I understand CERTAIN things by the fact that we share the same gender. And....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize and acknowledge that Black women don't get equal representation (and respectful respresentation) in the mass media--can you disagree? And, btw, that was my point all along--not that I was trying to saying I KNOW the essence of EVERY Black woman.
There are things, though some women hate it, that we all share....that are gender related. That is maybe why I can understand how it hurts another woman that she is seen by SOME as less than the woman she REALLY IS.
Damn. Who wouldn't that hurt?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 117
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 09:21 pm: |
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Abm,
You gotta admit--you could've been quoting Dickerson and not attempting to get more insight to something Moonsigns wrote. Anyway, I quess I need to apologize to Moonsigns as well. My Bad.
Tonya |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 635
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 09:28 pm: |
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Abm,
The point you have made is valid--how can women be truly respected in a movie that is exploiting them? No woman really can. However, there is a deeper point she is making and I think it is clear. The more serious side of the media, especially t.v. (news shows etc.) and movies (dramas etc.), rarely, if ever, have brown-skin and dark-skin women in leading roles.
And....although I (personally) don't give a shyt about (most) movies with zero substance (as this one seems to be) and I think the mass media SUCKS, I think for some people, the factor of inclusion is important. I may not totally agree with it (because there is SO much corruption in the media), I do understand how relevant it is in todays lifestyle. Therefore, I can understand why DD wrote this article.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 636
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 09:34 pm: |
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Tonya,
It's all good. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 118
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 09:36 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
First, I didn't read your 9:12pm post until after I posted my apology, so hopefully you understand that I intended to apologize even before you said something.
Secondly, this is all ABM's fault. Did you check-out the way he worded his post? He made it sound like he was asking a white woman how she felt about the respectability of black women.
Girl, you know how these men be trying to keep us against one another. Well that's what ABM was trying to do. Anyway, please accept my apology.
Tonya |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2439
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
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For me to be the oldest poster on this board, it amazes me how stuck in the past some of you can be. This 2005. What went on back in the last century, in the 1970s and 80s is ancient history. As far as women being exploited goes, nobody can exploit a woman without her cooperation. The only women who seem worried about this are the women who don't consider themselves being exploited. The ones who are out there in the spotlight, seem to be thriving on their visibility and apparently their definition of being exploited doesn't coincide with that of others. If a woman poses nude for Playboy and gets $100,000 for doing so, who's the sucker here? When woman is regarded as a sex object, what does that make the man who is beguiled by her charms? And what the hell is a man to her but a sex object. If black women are invisible, maybe they should focus outside of themselves and stop empowering men by yearning for their worship. When a man loves a woman, it's not because he gets a thrill out of treating her like a queen, it's because he appreciates her ability to hold his interest... Owwwww! Leggo my hair and stop tryng to scratch my eyes out! I take it all back. Damn. |
Blkamericanking
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkamericanking
Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 07:24 am: |
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I think white men only cast dark skinned black women because they feel the black community would be very upset if they didn't. Let's be real, what white male producer/director in America today would wanna be labeled a racist by the Black American community? Deep down inside those white directors don't give a crap about dark skinned women. If you see a dark skinned sister in a white man's movie, u can bet she's a damn good actress. A white man is NOT going to cast her simply for her dark skin. As far as black men casting light skinned women, unfortunately they have been trained by white men to think and act white, so therefore they are gonna do whatever to please the white man or white people in general. This is AmeriKKKa and the white majority is just NOT ready to accept dark skinned sisters, especially in a leading role. We as the black community must tell black directors who and what WE wanna see on the screen. We cannot afford to sit around and wait for white people to change the way they think about us. We have to change things ourselves.
BlkKing |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 124
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 04:32 pm: |
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*joking*
Girl, you know how these men be trying to keep us against one another. Well that's what ABM was trying to do.
HAHA!!!
Just kidding around!! Not meant to be taken seriously.
Tonya |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 3965
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 01:11 pm: |
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Kola,
I've not tried to encourage any more hate/resentment of White men that THEY themselves have already earned. And I resent your asserting otherwise.
I've just tried to tell the truth about how Hollywood works with respect to color and beauty as best I know such to be.
But I understand why you view things differently.
And I hope your Volcano Woman and other literary projects are aboundingly lauded and profitable.
Moonsigns,
I think we basically agree, though I think you gleaned more merit from DD's article than it warrants.
Tonya,
I did NOT attempt to illicit any trouble between you, Moonsigns and/or anyone else. I simply asked Moonsigns to clarify a point she appeared to be making.
Blkamericanking,
Like you, I don't expect for an INSTANT White men will make any meaningful, substantive gestures to bolster the image of Black women. Yes, they have and will make a few token gestures to glorify sistahs. But such efforts will continue pale in comparison to what they're most inclined to do and what they've ALWAYS done.
ALL,
I will not be posting on any of the Thumper's Corners sites for the foreseeable future. A dear family member of mine has recently passed on. And I think that perhaps it is time I use this transitional moment in my life to direct my efforts in other endeavors.
I wish you all the best in your pursuits and your lives. |
Crystal
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 227
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 02:49 pm: |
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I'm very sorry to hear this ABM. Best wishes to you and your family!
See ya when we see ya - hopefully soon. |
West_africa
Regular Poster
Username: West_africa
Post Number: 29
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 03:31 pm: |
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In New York City there is a weekly newspaper called The Village Voice.
There was a cover story once several years ago about African-American women and "feminism".
There's a point in that section where an older activist African-American woman is speaking during a dialogue with a young activist African-American woman.
Here is something she said to this bright, young articulate, energetic, activist African-American woman:
"You want to know the difference between your generation and my generation? My generation wanted to win. Your generation wants to be right."
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 443
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:14 pm: |
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I will miss you all my life, ABM.
Not that you care.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2447
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 04:27 pm: |
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Feminism, like many movements, strove for goals that meant nothing once they were achieved because everything else had changed. |
West_africa
Regular Poster
Username: West_africa
Post Number: 31
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 04:19 pm: |
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As an point of interest, what the older woman was trying to convey is beyond feminism.
She was speaking as an experienced, motivated African-American middle-aged woman to an energetic and articulate, highly motivated, younger African-American eye-to-eye in the arena of challenge, and trying to give her a sense of a point of wisdom she had become quite certain of: That, within the African-American experience, whether you choose feminism or any other "ism" as the construct within which you try to achieve, if you are not clear about your core motivation, you may find yourself satisfied, but satisfied by an effort or experience that does not lead to victory or even to real advance.
She is trying to tell her that we need victory, not rhetorical finesse, and that victory as an objective quite often requires us to sacrifice our attraction for stunningly exciting arguments, and displays of pseudo-artistic verbiage (e.g. Erika Badu's "Tyrone)--- to sacrifice by not choosing those options, and choosing instead values like loyalty, values like action instead of verbiage, values like respect, values like self-respect, values like silence when appropriate, values like unwavering committment, values like unselfishness.
To guard these values may be far less grand to those who crave credit and attention, but these are values that tend to assure pathways to the clearing, to assure the "inevitability" of victory.
Martin Luther King quite often confused the beauty of rhetorical formulation with the requirements of strategic assessment.
In feminism there are often similar cases.
The older woman (who was not really a feminist in her own mind, she was a female African-American activist) was urging her to remember what people she is a part of as a person, and to not become the psychological slave of any "ism". Be what we need for victory, or steps in that direction.
"That old bush just keeps on burnin'..." --- Earth, Wind, & Fire
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2451
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 18, 2005 - 05:14 pm: |
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Interesting. As they say - "there is no substitute for victory." |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 767
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 19, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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The article was interesting, but poorly articulated...what was her point? What was the thread that holds it together?
That black women are not loved?
That black women need to be loved by white and black men, but especially white men?
That since white men don't want me, i'll go back to the hood?
Black men exploited sisters? (Since she doesn't criticism whites, though she mentions slavery, should we presume that white men had no part in the exploitation of black women?)
Is she reaffirming Moynihan's underresearched thesis that black matriarchy emasculated black men?
That black women are less "womenly" because they beared the burden of poverty and they need men, especially white men because we don't love them, to save them?
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Aapoet
First Time Poster
Username: Aapoet
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 04:52 pm: |
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First, let me say that this is a well written piece and a good read. Debra Dickerson is a good essayist, though I think with this piece she writes about a subject for which her own experiences don’t follow what most people experience.
Black women are undesirable? The notion is so absurd that I nearly let this article pass without a response. Then I realized that this is just the kind of article that can help to feed that great want that many white people have to be superior. So, I decided to take the time.
Before I decided to write I sent the article to a number of black women that I know, just to make sure that I don’t make the same mistake as Debra, and write solely from my own opinion and experience. After all, I am a black man who finds women of all races attractive, but who feels that black women are heads and shoulders above the rest in terms of physical beauty and sexual desirability. The women I wrote to, to the number, responded that Debra Dickerson "has problems", or is "completely off base", or "doesn’t speak for most black women". In fact, one of the sisters I wrote to is a writer herself. She felt that Salon.com chose to publish Dickersons piece because it is more "readable" to the mainstream reader. They wouldn’t, however, have published an article written by her (my friend), telling the "truth" as she has experienced it.
According to her, she has a lot of white male friends, and every time they get the chance they try to get her into bed. She tells them that she doesn’t have sex with her friends, but the truth is that she is just not attracted to white men. And I have to admit, that her experience is much closer to what I’ve seen to be the truth in my life.
I went to a predominantly white university. I can say quite easily and honestly that, at least on this campus, white women threw themselves at black men. Maybe it was just the fact that it was the first time they were away from home and they wanted to do something that was taboo in their household, but it was not just a few of them. It was an everyday, reoccurring theme. Meanwhile, black women on the campus outnumbered black men by about 50%. So, many black women were lonely, and the ones who weren’t often times had to put up with cheating boyfriends because the brothers really did have choices when it came to partying.
Still, even with that being the case, every weekend you would see white guys approaching sisters, and getting shot down. Sister, even the single ones, weren’t interested. Now, remember, we aren’t talking about white trash and hoodrats. This is a prestigious university, so these are all educated women at their prime and perkiest. So, these horny college boys would be happy to take most of the women home, even if for their own taboo experience, but the sisters weren’t having it. And that probably has more to do with why there wasn’t a black wedding in the film than anything else.
Had a white guy who looks like Owen Wilson, walked into black wedding looking for a quick bang, he would have left wanting. Sure, the sisters would have gotten a laugh watching him try to dance to our music. A few may have even given him a novelty dance. But you can believe that Owen Wilson and Vince Vaughn wouldn’t have had the time they had at these other weddings. And they know that. Had they put a scene in the film where they went to one of our weddings and sweet talked some sisters into bed, there would have been more articles screaming foul than poor Debra’s.
See, as we all know, it is the woman who makes the decision about hooking up, whether it be for sex or anything else. A man may make the approach, but the woman makes the decision. That’s why it makes me laugh when people holler about black men wanting white women. Sure, we see more mixed relationships that way than the other way around, but like I said, it’s the woman that makes that decision. And quite honestly, I don’t think most sisters think white men have much for them.
The times you do see sisters with white men, the man is usually very successful. That scene we often see where a white woman is with a broken down black man on the street, or is taking care of a jobless black man, we never see the other way around. Black women have too much "flavor" and are too strong to put up with someone who can’t keep up AND is broke. Women usually want a man who is stronger than them, and who has the game to make her want to be touched by him.
Now I know people don’t want to hear this, but it’s the truth. It’s not hard to see either. Look around you. BET is such a popular channel because young white males love to see the sisters dancing around in next to nothing, and fantasize about them. Halle Berry and Beyonce Knowles are always among the list of the women they want to sleep with. (Gweneth Paltrow and Maria Sharapova are not going to be on the list of too many brothers.) The issues is that Beyonce wants a man like Jay-Z, and Halle, even with all her man problems, loves black men. So, white men go elsewhere to live out their fantasies.
Brazil has become one of the hot spots for vacationing, in large part because rich white men from Europe and America go down to take advantage of all of these brown skinned sisters with the round booties who have to sell themselves to survive. There, they won’t get turned down. There is even a documentary show on HBO about a legal brothel in Nevada that demonstrates the point. There is a sister there, who is not "all that" but who is envied because so many white guys come in there and want to be with a black women. It seems that she is always one of the most popular girls at the place. Again, the white guy doesn’t get turned down there.
Anyone who believes that sisters aren’t desirable has been caught up in the media assault that tries to teach us that European features are a standard for beauty. But honestly, I don’t even think most white people buy it for real. After all, I live in LA and I see ads for lip injections, and butt enhancement every day. And I doubt that sisters are their clientele. And that doesn’t even touch the tanning industry which is huge everywhere.
Don’t get me wrong. Any man who is not trying to prove something will tell you that there are very desirable women in every race. But the idea that black women are somehow less desirable than others, to anyone, is ludicrous. I think that Debra Dickerson is simply speaking from personal issues more than from a viewpoint she’s developed by observing others.
In fact, I would surmise that it’s the false standard of beauty that has Debra a bit confused. If I had to guess, I’d say she has a lot of white friends, and she judges herself based on her what her friends say and who they like. I assume that because of the way she phrases certain things, and the fact that she actually fantasizes about Own Wilson ...lol. To me, it’s similar to a white guy in a big city who hangs with a bunch of black guys and show signs of feeling unattractive and physically inferior.
Again, it was a well written article ... but don’t believe the hype.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 290
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 05:20 pm: |
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Aepoet: Go fuck yourself -- you crack-head, ignorant ass, bastard.
Where'd you get all that shit anyway? A movie?
You lonely asswipe!
Ain't no writer-sista-friend tell you no dumb shit like that.
And if she did -- tell that crusty ass, high yellow, crack-head, whore, to go jump off a bridge after she slit her fucking throat!
Tonya |
Aapoet
Newbie Poster
Username: Aapoet
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 07:17 pm: |
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Is this the same Tonya that originally responded to this post? If so, maybe you should reread my post, because you're original post makes my point exactly. My main point is that black women are indeed desirable, but that they don't particularly desire white men. In your orignal post you say that you "can care less about the attention of white men". So, why are you so hostile about what I said?
Also, my friend is a writer and she did indeed respond the way I said. I have a lot of friends who are writers, as I am one myself. And, FYI, she is a beautiful dark brown skin sister.
I really don't understand the hostility. Are you sure you didn't misread my response? If not, please tell me why you are so upset by it?
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 293
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 09, 2005 - 08:29 pm: |
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Aapoet, please go to "The Kool Room" and click on the "Do all black men feel this way " thread for my response. |
Aapoet
Newbie Poster
Username: Aapoet
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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Tonya, I have read your response in Kool Room. This is what I posted there.
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My sister,
I don't at all believe that white men seeking black women for the sole purpose of sex is something of which to be proud. I understand that it is indeed humiliating and offensive, just as it is when any man uses a woman as nothing more than a sexual object. I am not condoning or glorifying that practice. But being honest, that's exactly what Debra Dickerson's article is about. And that is one of the reasons I chose to respond to it in length.
The motivation for the article is that the sister felt left out of a film about men trying to do nothing beyond having sex with the women at these weddings. They were not looking for strong women to be their partners in life. They were looking to "fuck". And quite honestly, the article didn’t go much deeper than that. Debra wanted to be fuckable to these men. She felt that the strength that I believe makes black women so beautiful and desirable somehow made them unfuckable, and I feel that the whole notion is absurd. However, if I’m going to argue against her point, I have to debate on the same grounds she set, which is about no more than being fuckable. So, using the Brazilian sex trips and the prostitute (a very small part of my response), was simple to say that on that raw level of fuckability, yes, it’s obvious that these men want to fuck black women so much that they are willing to travel and pay to do so. So, her argument is not correct.
Then, I chose to go deeper than Debra, because I agree that the idea of being fuckable is very superficial, particularly when you are dealing with the issues of race and oppression, which can not be avoided in the discussion. So, I went on to point out what I feel are some of the real reason our sisters are left out of such scenarios in films, television, etc., when it comes to this subject.
To me, black women are appealing in so many ways. It hurts me that this sister feels the way she does, but I also feel that it has much more to do with her own personal brainwashing. No American, particularly black American escapes it. Those in power have tried, and to a great extent succeeded, to cause us to feel self hate and self doubt. And to me, that is what this article is really about. To say that black women aren’t desirable is ridiculous. The fact that a black women is saying it is a shame.
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Howard_roark
First Time Poster
Username: Howard_roark
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 07, 2005 - 07:26 am: |
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Kola_boof wrote:
The new film by John Singleton, "Four Brothers" is a GLOWING example of how Black Men routinely make films where black women don't exist.
If she does--she's usually a high yellow woman, a dark woman is either the villain or the old saintly Grandmother.
Is there a SINGLE Black American who noticed the BLATANT colorism in John Singleton's film "RoseWood". NO---because these fuckers over here are such white supremacists, they can't see!
Howard Roark wrote:
Blacks are often paired with non-blacks in films in an attempt to attract a wider audience. Films such as Baby Boy with depicts black men and black women in relationships are thought to be “black movies”, and as such white audiences may not feel welcomed and stay away. This is not a practice exclusive to black males and non-black females. Jennifer Lopez and Halle Berry often star opposite of white male actors.
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