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Mahoganyanais
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 04:35 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4628960

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Cynique
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 06:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Dyson in one area, and that is that his arguments are abstract and the arguments of his opponents are simplistic.And since the black population itself is so divided about the siutation, the picture is even more blurred. The bottom line is that the problem of the poverty-stricken black underclass in America has always been around and shows no signs of going away. It is an issue that sells books and makes good subject matter for a debate that neither side wins. It's enough to make me wonder if the fact that one person makes it out of the ghettto and goes on to better himself, and another person from the same circumstances never escapes his plight has something to do with the individual, not the group.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:09 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been meaning to post this--I'm glad you did, Mahogany. The audio is definitely worth a listen if you missed it on the radio.
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:30 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First of all, I don't think this subject deserved a whole book written about it---or at least not with Cosby's NAME attached.

Second, while I don't dare espouse some love for the Black Middle Class----I definitely believe that it's an abomination to (a) prohibit the Elders from speaking and to (b) try to dictate what they say.

Whether they are Wrong or Right---the Elders have the highest right to speak.

I did not agree with the "way" Bill Cosby said what he did (the classist undertones)---but I did agree with the OVERALL temperment and his Urgent Insistence that something must be done!!

I'm not too big on black men these days. And Cosby isn't one of my favorites.

BUT...I really do believe he's always TRIED to strengthen and nurture the community. I truly believe that. I also think he's much better for us than men like Sidney Poitier, Quincy Jones, Harry Belafonte, John Edgar Wideman---men I generally think of as weaklings and glorified "Lackeys".

But Cosby at least agitated people and brought discussion and heat to an area that desperately needs it.

Of course---"the black poor" is more of a reject heap presided over by the Black Woman, who has been betrayed and abandoned in this country by the Black Man. And my main problem with "MALES" speaking on the state of "the black poor" is that they're never willing to see the part THEY PLAY now that they've gotten their "civil rights" and MOVED ON to greener pastures and mostly done it.....off the blood, sweat and tears of the inner city "followers" that they no longer have any use for.

I love Michael Eric Dyson, but I just don't think this is an important book at all, and it was obviously RUSHED into production and rushed into the stores....to capitalize and make money off a recent event. Which doesn't say much for Dyson's own integrity, right?

I love Dyson and Cosby BOTH.



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Libralind2
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with most of the above comments
LiLi
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Yvettep
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Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 10:39 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree about the book being rushed to cash in on some controversy. I have not, however, actually read it so perhaps it is deeper and more insightful than I assume.

One of the callers to the radio program made a good point. She said that what the Cos said was no different than what enerations of various Black leaders have said about Blacks (particularly "poor" or "uneducated" or "inner city"...) The only difference this time was that "White folks were listening."

Of course she was not the first to make this observation...But it did make me think. Is there any "private space" now where We (whoever "We" may be) can go and talk in provate about these types of things, away from this kind of scrutiny? Even here, I often feel freer to talk candidly about my opinions about issues of race but of course this is not "behind closed doors."

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Kola_boof
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 03:12 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette,

The answer is NO.

You can't hide your dirty linen from White Folks when they're now LIVING INSIDE your house and have more access to your community...than you do.

I say it all the time, and it's tragically true---there is no more Black Community, because the fact is....things are 600 times WORSE than what Cosby said. He didn't even scratch the surface.





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Rustang
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This might sound a little strange to some,but it is actually a good thing that Cosby's hateful and mean spirited remarks got so much attention.It throws a subject into the public eye that is desparately in need of being addressed.Eventually people are going to realize that the issues are not simply black and white,they are affluent and poverty stricken.Go to a dirt poor trailer park populated by white people and observe how those people act and you will see no difference.They talk to their children like dogs,there will be high levels of alcoholism and drug abuse,the dialect spoken there bears little resemblence to standard english,much higher rates of teen age pregnancy,unwed mothers and single parent homes,etc.,etc....It will also become apparent that poor people,black or white,where not presented with a list of viable options and then stupidly selected ignorance and brutal poverty as the lifestyle of choice.A person is born where they are born.They are raised by the parents they have,and they will tend to behave in the same manner as everyone around them.To Cynique I would say that it is true in a very limited sense that the reason one person rises out of that and many others do not is indeed the product of qualities possessed by the individual.But the possession of those qualities is the result of having been dealt a much better hand at birth than the ones that don't make it out.If you put a hundred children in a room,one of them is going to be just plain smarter than the rest of them.Some people are just plain luckier than others.When all of the stars line up just right for a kid,then he's smart enough to realize that poverty sucks and formulate a plan to get out of there.He must also be extremely lucky and stumble into opportunities and again,be smart enough to recognize the long term advantages of something that,to the casual observer,looks like just another way to work your ass off for peanuts.He must also be willing to work towards the accomplishment of his goals.Most people do not have all of the requisite qualities to do this.Certainly not at an early enough age.They surely don't realize that the last decision a person makes that really matters concerning the course their life will take is made at about age 13.Of course,you can make bad decisions and wreck your life at pretty much any stage of it,but the opportunities for improvement run out at a very early age.And most folks take what seems to be the path of least resistance,which is also the road to poverty.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola you are 600% right. I work in the community and I have no answers as to what we should do because we have been given "answers" and ways to dig out but folks are for lack of a better word seemingly complacent which makes me sad. Dr Claude Anderson in the book "Powernomics" has laid it out as one example of someone giving the community "answers" but the folks who need to read it....::sigh:: are not.
LiLi
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 12:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LiLi, you bring up an interesting point and an important problem: It is one of finding the correct message/medium/audience match.

Do you ever notice the instructions in Braille at the drive-through windows of bank ATMs? Who the hell is that for? As one comedian I heard once observed, what blind people are driving around in cars looking for an ATM?

This is what the whole Cosby bruhaha reminds me of.

I guess that is my overall beef with Cosby's remarks: Considering who he was addressing, it would seem that his remarks should have been what middle class folks needed to do to help the situation. He might have talked, for example, about how middle class Blacks are going deeper and deeper into debt to buy bigger houses, buy their children expensive gaming systems, and so on. He might have talked about middle class Black folks tithing money to megachurches on Sundays instead of contributing that money to storefront churches in the 'hood that are trying to run a little day care center.

Now, if he wanted to give that particular message, then why not go to the appropriate audience, in the appropriate venues--which, btw, wopuld have also afforded a chance for those folks to talk back?

(He also might have thought about his, er, proclivities going on in his own glass house before he began tossing stones--but that's another topic...)

In short:

What good did he expect to come out of his remarks, given that the people he was addressing were not in a position to take action on them and given that the people who might be in a position to take action were not even there?

Perhaps banks have the raised dots-instructions on their ATMs as some sort of grandstanding measure, to give the illusion that they care about the banking needs of their non-sighted customers.

And Cosby's remarks--to me--have that same kind of granstanding feel.


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Kola_boof
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 01:32 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The good of his remarks, Yvette,.....was that with all the DAILY MESSAGES from "Hip Hop Culture" and the complacency from Slow-as-Snails Social Workers that encourage masses of black people that it's OK to self-destruct.....

.....he at least was HEARD by the masses giving a vastly different message....and one that INSISTED that there is a major problem. The fact that black people didn't like his message is IRRELEVANT.

Blacks "NEVER" like to hear anything that's "GOOD" for them.

I don't actually agree with Cosby's message in totality or the ELITIST way he did it....

...but I do believe that he CARES about black people's future AS A PEOPLE....

....and how dare we pussyfoot about MEANINGLESS speculation like "why/how/etc." .....when the fact is....the ISSUES HE RAISED need to be addressed, even if he isn't the one qualified to do them justice.

The fact is....SOMEBODY needs to get in "black folks" FACES and start some shit.

What I find is that Black Intellectual People are COWARDS and often waste a lot of time talking about NOTHING and doing NOTHING.

Cosby's remarks were most definitely grandstanding.....but GOOD, SO WHAT.

I'd rather from him than that stupid ass Grandstanding PUFFY COMBS and his empty messages.....and I respect COSBY a helluva lot more than I do RUSSELL SIMMONS who grandstands and PIMPS the community just like COMBS does.

Something said is better than nothing said at all.

Black People in this country need to be cussed out and insulted so much more...it's not even funny.

The fate of our entire race, WORLDWIDE, depends on the choices and decisions that Black Americans make.

And we are going...the WRONG WAY, and have been for 20 years.

People have every right not to agree with Bill Cosby.....BUT......he has earned the right to speak and to say whatever the hell he wants to say. He is an ELDER.

I don't see anyone devoting threads to the grandstanding of Russell Simmons and Sean Puffy Combs and 50 Cents and Howard Stern and the rest of the Numb-skulls who have 10 Times more INFLUENCE than Cosby and spew their bullshit more often.






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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 01:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My question, Kola, was what good did he expect to come out of his remarks--not what good may have, in fact, ensued.

I still feel he had no intentions of his remarks helping in any way. He was grandstanding, entertaining, provoking. And yes, he has every right to do that--as an elder, as a celebrity, as a man of wealth and means, whatever.

By my saying I think Cosby was grnadstanding, I in no way am saying he is the only one doing so. And part of Dyson's response, I think, comes from the fact that he is an academic, and as such, must "produce" ideas in the form of journal articles, books, etc. If you heard his radio interview, you know he can grandstand with the best of 'em: talking (almost rapping) at a lightening-speed clip, giving dead-on Cosby and "Fat Albert" impersonations, throwing out $2.00 words when 50-cent words would do, etc.

I agree with you that "The fact is....SOMEBODY needs to get in black folks FACES and start some shit." But I think that Cosby largely failed at this: In large part his remarks and the way he made them made middle class Blacks more comfortable ("It's all THOSE Negroes"), put many low-income Blacks on the defensive ("What the hell right does he have to tell me what to name my kids when he ain't giving me no pampers money") and generally amused and/or mystified and/or validated most Whites ("Oh, those crazy Blacks...").

If he was trying to "start some shit," I think what has happened is that we are in the exact same place we were before.
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:20 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whites...SHOULD BE....amused and feel superior to Black Americans. I don't know how they couldn't with so many black tongues up their white asses.

Cosby didn't have to open his mouth for that.

ONE THING blacks should STOP DOING is caring what "white people think" about them. That in itself would be a step toward self-actualization. You know what Whites thought from DAY ONE---which is why it's ridiculous to care what they think NOW.

__________

I agree with you on this:

In large part his remarks and the way he made them made middle class Blacks more comfortable ("It's all THOSE Negroes"),

And I detest the Black Middle Class. I really do.
____________________

No we're not exactly where we were before----because Dyson had to write an entire book and we're having this discussion.

We are ALL...selfish people. Cosby can't be expected to be "God". But at least he did do something......and regardless what anyone says, his body of work DOES INDEED highlight the humanity of black people in a very positive way----the images that he set in front of our people's eyes have been LIGHT YEARS better than what so many other black male icons, ie. Sidney Poitier and Harry Belafonte have given us.

The REAL TRUTH...is that Black Americans hate being criticized in ANY WAY.....they still walk around thinking they have some "moral superiority" over whites......when the real truth is.......THEY'VE BECOME THE WHITES.

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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BTW, Kola, over on the "POV" thread (http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/5002.html?1115577275) Cynique called an image I posted "Kolaesque." I love that word! I'll never have your knack for prolific image-posting, but I do like the idea that something I did had a "Kola flair" LOL!

(Someone should start a new thread: "WWKP" ["What Would Kola Post"] where we try to anticipate your reaction to certain topics and then you give prizes to whoever comes closest!)

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Kola_boof
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Yvette.

It's you that "I" love, sister.

________

That would be cute about the prizes. But everybody here already knows what I would say.

Except with the MADONNA thing. LOL

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Kola_boof
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Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 02:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ALSO:

I can't post on THUMPER's board...so I didn't comment on that thread.

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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 09:32 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I’ve spoken ad nauseum about Cosby. So I won’t say much.

My biggest problem with what Bill said was that it was unnecessarily and unfairly contemptuous of poor Black people. Many of us middle and upper middle class Blacks behave as badly as he describes, which is, to me, even worse because we have few reasons for carrying on as such. Yet he reserves his revulsion for those amongst us who have the least power to rebut him.

In a way, I found what he did to be akin to bullying – picking on the weaker kid.

Btw: I wonder what REALLY happened to that charge the Canadian chick made against him? (“Class? Can someone explain to me the definition of the word 'bribe'”?)
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Mahoganyanais
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 09:44 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM: Btw: I wonder what REALLY happened to that charge the Canadian chick made against him? (“Class? Can someone explain to me the definition of the word 'bribe'”?)

Mah: She filed a civil suit. Don't know if it's still pending. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0308051cosby1.html
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 09:59 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mah,

Thanks!

("Class? Also look up the word 'karma'")
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 11:08 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am so thru with the whole "It was consensual!" defense. Maybe these men ("elders" and young bloods alike) will eventually learn to keep their jello-brand puddin' pops to themselves and their wives.

But, unfortunately, I doubt it.
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Cynique
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 06:21 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, school teacher. Glad class is dismissed.I'm tired of this subject.
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Mahoganyanais
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 06:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Every time I saw "Mabley", I thought "Moms Mabley." Worlds colliding...
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Cynique
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 06:54 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oops my post was in the wrong place. Belongs under the "race interrupted" one.
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Ancestry
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Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 09:58 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, Michael Erik Dyson has been talking about Cosby since last year. Check him out on Tavis Smiley. Here is the link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1912340
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 03:54 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette,

If you started a post about what Kola thinks about some Black MAN, that would be about as predictable as the frequency of Spring rain in Seattle.

HAHA!


All,

I’d like to expand upon a point that Rustang appear to allude to: The margin of error for poor, Black young people is RAZOR thin. I don’t think we underscore that point enough.

If Black kids do things their suburban peers are slapped on the wrist for (e.g., smoking dope, vandalism, loitering, etc.), they get cited, arrested and convicted.

Every freakin’ weekend, millions of White teens are getting bombed out of their stringy-headed minds on alcohol, marijuana and Ecstasy (cement glue, lighter fluid, kerosene...all KINDS of crazy@$$ $#@+!). Yet how often do ANY of them suffer arrests/convictions? How often do you see THEIR faces on TV and newpaper reporting?

Conversely, Black youths are arrested/convicted of drug-related offenses in rates +10X those of Whites even though many credible studies have indicated that Black kids are often LESS likely to consume alcohol and illegal drugs than Whites.

So you can’t just say it’s about what the individual does.

We must also insure that our institutions, laws are fair/just. Because as long as they are not, we will have +1,000,000 White kids being put on one type of life-track and +1,000,000 Blacks put on another one...for essentially doing the SAME friggin’ things.


LiLi,

If you haven’t already, I’d suggest you also read Claude Anderson’s “Black Labor, White Wealth”. It provides a succinctly compelling treatise on how Blacks have always been and continue to be viewed by Wealthy Whites as a vehicle of wealth/power maintenance and development and until we view all of our dealings with Whites from that perspective – rather than via all the socio-cultural rigmarole – we’ll continue to be misused.

One thing in Anderson’s “Black Labor...” I (and I imagine Kola might) find particularly interesting is Anderson recommends we Blacks institute some HARSH penalties against Blacks who operate in disconcert with the best interests of the MAJORITY of Blacks foks. How of course such could/would actually be enforced is topic I think is worthy of exposition.


Kola,

I agree with you that what Combs and Simmons do are in many instances worst than what Cosby does. However, Cosby’s generation fathered/bred that of Combs/Simmons’.

So my question to Bill and his generational peers who think like him (e.g., Cynique) is simple: What the HELL have YOU been doing the last +30 years? Oh, I know: Gettin' pimped and paid by rich/powerful White foks...just like Puffy and Russell.

NNNEXT!
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A_womon
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 07:56 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM and Rustang, you make much needed, very salient points that have been largely overlooked, and sadly mostly left unsaid. BRAVO!
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Libralind2
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 10:52 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whew..I will be back as you all raised points I must address..or I wont be able to sleep. LOL I just dont have time to do it now.
LiLi
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Cynique
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Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 02:31 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I say what I have to say, ABM, and if you don't agree with me, too bad. And, naturally, nothing you say on this subject impresses me greatly because you identity a problem and then delude yourself into thinking that the people you accuse of causing the problem will solve it. The System don't work that way, babe. As your boy Jesse says, the only one who can save "us" from "us" is "us". So people like Bill Cosby have a right to offer constructive criticism, as opposed to all of you verbose apologists who do nothing more than identify and describe the dilemma, actually thinking white capitalistic America is going to reform. Sheeze. Truck on down that yellow brick road, kiddies, and say hello to the White Wizard for me.
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Abm
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 03:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,

No...YOU mistakenly assume because I identify who causes the problem mean I expect them to solve it. But then it don’t surprise me you might make that error, seeing as how we all know what happens when one ASSumes.

And if one attempt to provide nuance to problems and inequities that unfairly impact the Black community, one’s by your definition an “apologist”?

HAHA!

I imagine you’ve been the belle of many GOP...’balls’.


But lemme try to be fair.

I’ll make a deal with you: When Cosby can keep his own dayam “pudding pop” (Haha! Good one, 'Vette!) and family outtah trouble, maybe I’ll then become especially interested in something HE declares.

K?

Otherwise, I’ll pretty much rank Cosby’s rant with that of pill-popping Rush Limbaugh’s castigations of (other) drug abusers.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 09:59 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

MANY Powerful men have a "problem", "issue" or "whatever" lable you choose to use when it comes to sex but for me I dont get caught up as it is a distraction to the more pressing issues we deal with in the community. SOME folks are still pissed with Frederick Douglass for his choices but do we throw out his concern for the Black community as legit..? I think not. He is just one example of many but the main point is, our community is in crisis. Its not getting better and Cosby is just one voice beating the drum. He does not speak for all but I agree with most of his comments 500%. I have stated before I work in the community so I see what he is saying DAILY. Up close and personal. Im not going to dismiss his comments because he doesnt have control of his "puddin" pop. LAWD LOL
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Abm
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:38 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LiLi,

Okay. I'll grant you that.

But Cosby's also had a drug addicted daughter and a son who was killed by a - WHITE, not BLACK - man while pursuing a 2:00 AM tryst with a - WHITE, not BLACK - woman.

So even if you toss out the stuff about his having a extramarital child, sex abuse charges and other alleged "pudding pop" offenses, you STILL have in Bill Cosby a man who's FAR afield from being the best purveyor of how we should think/live.

And, again, it's not so much what he said, but rather how and to whom he directed it. Had he directed his ire to ALL Black people (including HIMSELF), not just the poorest/weakest amongst us, I think it would have been less divisive amongst us and encouraged us all to embrace some scheme to move forward...together.

But what we have now is largely classist squabbling that's not going to do anyone much good. Because the middle class foks are more inclined to continue to blame/abandon the underclass foks amongst and they'll in turn be less inclined to appreciate/embrace help.

And jus' 'cause you have money/fame don't mean that YOUR $#@+ don't stink too. Cosby's sure as HECK does!
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Yvettep
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:43 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LiLi: What leaders do with their puddin pops is VERY relevant when one of the things they are trying to lead about is morality, sexual restraint, personal responsibility.

I do agree with you that Our community is in crisis, and I would have hoped Cosby and others could have delivered a message about what We (all of us) should do about it.

Cynique, I'm all for constructive criticism. Tell me: How is making fun of low income people's child-naming choices in an arena where those folks aren't even present "constructive"?

My issue is not that he "shouldn't" have said what he said or that he somehow doesn't have a "right." Just that I think what he was doing was purely entertainment, a kind of stand-up routine. As an entertainer and former/sometimes stand-up comedian Cosby has every right and skill to do just that.

But. For us to try to analyze his remarks as deep cultural analysis is, I believe, a mistake as well as a waste of breath (and book pages...)

The positive work that Bill and his wife have done in the Black community, higher education, children's programming (recent, e.g. "Little Bill") cannot be denied. And I do not deny these efforts.

But just as we should not always be distracted by folks' "extracurricular" activities to the detriment of their good deeds, we should also stop being so willing to give some folks a "free pass" when it comes to their inability/unwillingness to practice what they preach.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 10:44 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

x-post w/AMB. Ditto.
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Cynique
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 02:07 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Apparently because you folks don't like the messenger, you are discrediting the tough-love message. Bill Cosby is of the "don't do as I do, do as I say do" school of discipline. Or maybe the "those who can, do, and those who can't, teach. Millions of black Americans who aren't Republicans agreed with what Cosby said, so how errant can his message be? Since he made millions of dollars on his own merit and he doesn't depend on anybody else to take care of him, then he can say what he damn well pleases. If people object to his criticism, then they should come up with something that works instead of something that explains.
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Abm
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 02:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,

Millions of foks also STILL think there're weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

Foks are funny.

And Puffy Combs has earned as much money as Cosby at half Bill's age. That don't mean I think Combs knows a DAYAM thing about how to repair our communities.

But I agree we could all stand to do less gabbing and more building. You grab one end and I get the other. :-)
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Cynique
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 03:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Forget the weapons of mass destruction analogy. It isn't as if what Cosby said is so outrageous. Black leaders didn't disagree with his advice, they just didn't like him airing our dirty laundry in public. And maybe if Puffy would say what Cosby said, he would make an impact because his audience is the one who needs to heed Cosby's suggestions.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 08:02 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One thing I find so interesting about this topic where ever it is held, is we all agree there is a problem. I agree with Cynique about the messenger, you dont have to like it but the message is clear our kids have issues. I have the perfect example. It is on the news here so Im not disclosing something you couldnt research.
My friend has a son who is a 4.5 student. He has a full ride to OSU and there are allegations he was found selling pot to an undercover (so he can buy clothes..I was told). My own grandson is dealing with the court for being found with "some" susbstance on him. This is what Cosby was saying. Both these young men KNOW better. My grandson and the OSU student BOTH volunteered in the program I run as tutors. Both had goals but for some reason (Im calling them both crazy) they get caught up in the fast money game and we are now at a loss as to the "why" when they both have parents who gave them money. Mother and Father. Im sure Cosby had no control as well over his kids so I certainly will not say Im not trusting his judgement based on the actions of his son and daughter. Im at a loss right now and actually lost my train of thought as I worry of the outcome of both my grandson and my friends child.
LiLi
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Abm
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Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 11:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LiLi,

Thanks for helping to make the very point that I’ve attempted to make ever since this Cosby brouhaha erupted.

It AIN’T just the po', ignant foks who are screwin’ up. We ALL are!

THAT’S why we’ve got to stop the finger pointing at others. Because if we don’t, no matter our economic/educational station, we too are going to be on the receiving-end of some scolding...followed by handcuffs and prison sentences.

And THAT’S why I think the manner of Cosby’s delivery and to whom it was directed is most problematic. Because if he had directed his commentary to ALL Black people, we could ALL start talking about how to preempt ALL our children – including those from the ghetto and suburbia - from as you describe indulging the “fast money game”.

But instead, Cosby’s mostly given others incentive to throw rocks at HIS glass house.
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 12:05 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But instead, Cosby’s mostly given others incentive to throw rocks at HIS glass house.

______

Well, I can't deny ABM. That is very true.


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Jmho
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Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 03:40 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, I agree more with you, because it's hard for one to tell another parent how to they should be raising their wayward children when his or hers are just as wayward. Have to wonder why one can give such good advice, but can't seem to follow it themselves. On one hand, he wants to condemn 'baby daddies', yet he's one himself. As Cynique said, it's school of thought, do as I say and not as I do. But one's actions speak much louder than their words.

It seems when one's child act out then it's all upon the child, but when other people children act out, then it's the parents' fault. Sometimes children do things because they are children, and don't really consider or know the consequences of their actions, and the learning of such is a part of the process of living and maturing. The role of the parent is to guide and instruct but they must also lead by example, and not by just talking of what should be done.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005 - 08:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jmho..his antics as an adult aside..you dont think Cosby was a good father..? I know I was the best mother I knew how to be and my daughter turned out pretty good. She works, raises her children the best she knows how and has been there in all the kids corner 500% yet her son, my grandson made this decision that has us shaking our heads wondering "why"..? "What else could we have done..?". I dont think Cosby is any different in his parenting and surely Camilla had to be a positive influence on the children if folks insist Cosby wasnt. I cant make that leap that Cosby is a fugged up parent because his kids did whatever whatever and that he cant tell SOME parents you need to look at what your children are doing. I still agree with him and it needed to be said. Abm does make an excellent point that perhaps had Cosby spoke to the masses and not "turned folks" off it might have been received better but Im not sure.
LiLi
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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 10:14 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LiLi,

I agree with what you say about the hazards of parenting. But when you deride OTHERS for their faulty parenting, your house had better dang-sure be in order. Otherwise, foks are going to point fingers back at your @$$.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

you dont think Cosby was a good father..?

LiLi: What proof do we have that Bill Cosby was, in fact, a "good father"? Note, I am NOT asking what proof do we have that Cliff Huxtable wasn't a good father. It's just when we think of Cosby and fatherhood, I think it is easy to assume all sorts of things based on our love for his character.

More likely, I think, is that like most children of high achieving, high profile parents who are in time consuming careers his own children may have experienced some degree of ambiguous father-absence. Yeah, kids will do what they wanna do and you can't blame everything on parenting. But many times children's "acting out" is a bid for parental attention. (Though, frequently, so is children's super-duper high achievement...)

Not saying I know ANYTHING about Cosby's situation. I'll just echo ABM's point and restate that I find fault with the fact that he chose to deliver a message that he himself did not appear able to heed...
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:25 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

if Puffy would say what Cosby said, he would make an impact because his audience is the one who needs to heed Cosby's suggestions.

I agree, Cynique. (Tho P., too, would suffer from the same "glass houses" issue...)
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 12:47 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You Know YVETTE, I recently read Rebecca Walker's book "BLACK, WHITE and JEWISH"...........and I was SHOCKED to discover that my hero and IDOL, Alice Walker, was such a bad mother.

Rebecca really didn't spare Alice one bit. She let everyone know that she practically....and LITERALLY....raised herself, by herself.

I still LOVE and ADORE Alice Walker as much as I ever did.....but I was just so disillusioned to read about her private life. And yet is was CLEAR---that Alice loved her daughter deeply.



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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 01:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, Kola. Again, I think this is not an uncommon thing among children of rich/powerful/famous/successful public people. Perhaps you really cannot have it all: a very successful busy public life and a stable, nurturing home one. That shouldn't stop those of us who don't have to be raised by these people from loving and respecting their work.
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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 04:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'Vette,

Well said. I think what also happens is the children are often compelled - either by the parents, outsiders and/or internally - to either become or surpass their famed parents.

Imagine for all your childhood being told you are NOT as beautiful, smart or funny as you mother or father. That can drive even some of the most well-adjusted kids batty.

The weight of such can urge the children to into all kinds of eclectic, even reckless behavior/circumstance, all in hopes of distiguishing themselves.

Therefore, I don't necessarily BLAME Cosby for his familial troubles. We ALL have'em. And the unique circumstance of his life certainly complicated things. Again, I just don't dig his fingering others sans himself.


All,

Debra Dickerson is interviewing Dyson primarily, though I’m sure not entirely, about his “Cosby” book on Book TV (CSPAN II) tonite. Check your local Cable/Satellite listings for airtime.

This should make for an INTERESTING interview as author/columnist Dickerson has recently made a name for her herself by assuming a more 'critical' perspective on Black life, particularly via her "The End of Blackness" book.

So fireworks between these 2 may be in the offing.


Also, my wife has been enjoying Dyson’s book. She thinks it’s a bit “fluffy”, but good.
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Abm
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 06:49 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All,

I hope yawl are watching the interview I mentioned above.

DAYAM!

Dyson is scrait diggin' deep down into Cosby's @$$!
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Ancestry
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It would have been nice if Dyson wasn't so long winded; I did agree with all of his comments, however. I wish I had access to Cosby's speech or at least the transcripts. It seems that Cosby was more more venomous than the one would have thought.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:31 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's one place--it's "unofficial" but it pretty much captures the extended reports I have heard.

http://www.eightcitiesmap.com/transcript_bc.htm

It's a mixed bag, as far as I'm concerned. One minute I'm with him, agreeing 100%. The next I'm thinking he's gone too far in his over generalizations. A couple times I thought he was just plain mean-spirited...

I'm sure this will do nothing to sway folks here one way or the other from the positions we've already taken up. At least, though, we have a little more context.

I'll have to check out the BookTV spot when it's archived online.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2005 - 09:46 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvettep: I dont have proof of the kind of a father Cosby is/was. At the same time Im not going to make the leap because his children had issues in their own life it was "his fault" because of his parenting skills or his failure as a human being.
LiLi
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 08:31 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Then I would hope we could allow other parents that same humanity.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 08:35 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unless we only give parents the benefit of the doubt when they have vast resources...
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 08:50 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Listed below are my observation of the interview between Dyson and Dickerson.

I agree Ancestry that poor Debra hardly was able to get word in edgewise (Hehe!).



Dyson is disappointed there were few worthy retorts to his commentary.

Dyson thinks The Black Media Failed. Black press caved to Cosby’s power/celebrity. They only offered agreement with him sans debate.

Believe both style/substance of what Cosby said was lacking.

Dyson said those who even disagree with him appreciate there being SOME debate of what has otherwise been one-sided Cosby ranting.

Dyson agrees with Cosby that dirty laundry should be aired. But don’t think Cosby provides a full/fair accounting of such.

Dyson said Cosby even said something as OUTRAGEOUS in his original speech to the effect of things are so bad in the Ghetto, men will be impregnating their grandmothers!

Dyson noted instances where Cosby during his youth used curse and the n-words publically, things he now criticize poor Blacks and younger comedians for doing.

Dyson said Cosby had previously said he tired of speaking on race. Whites see himself as a non-Black person, and that that was to his advantage. Why NOW must assume the mantle of publicly speaking on what Black people are doing wrong when he never taken a public face on the race issues before.

Cosby ain’t said nothing new. Black leaders have ALWAYS spoken on personal responsibility. Even Jesse has said many negative things about Black. Difference is they ALSO hold Whites responsible for the problems.

Dyson called Cosby a racially Johnny-Come-Lately. Should be careful about how he says things and where he says them. Because Cosby has been silent on things issue over the decades, he’s ill prepared to do so now.

Debra says he never claimed to be saying something new.

Cosby started as a Dick Gregory...angry critique of racism. But he evolved into a race-neutral comedian. Doesn’t fault him for that but consider that to be contradictory to what he’s attempting to do with his barnstorming rants.

Respects Cosby’s talents, skills and perservance as an artist. Don’t have a problem with his race-neutral comedy. But Cosy make statements of race without prior practice...unlike fellow Black comedians Richard Pryor and Dick Gregory who has skills/experience for discussing race, comically yet with heart, skill, experience and nuance.

Cosby’s philanthropy arrested dissent and critique of what he had the say. So many people, White and Black feel beholded to and respectful and loving of him that few dared to confront the style/substance of what he said. And Cosby has used that sentiment in a bullying fashion here.

Dyson said rather than blaming poor Black foks Cosby should start with the White House. It there, not the ‘hood’, where issues about education and illiteracy are most affected. The White House plays up dumb-dumbism and uses it to manipulate the masses into think Bush (Harvard/Yale) grad is just an ordinary guy, when he isn’t. Why doesn't Cosby confront THAT?

Cosby decries consumerism amongst po Blacks ($500 sneakers). Yet he himself has hocked Jello, Ford, EF Hutton. Cosby has supported/boister the artificial, material desires in people yet now complain about consumerism.

If he came along now, he’d be hocking stuff like rappers/athletes.

Dyson said he to has been subject to scrutiny from progressive Blacks. So his view isn’t one-sided. He caught a lot of flack for his book about MLK. Progressives andBlacks were pissed.

Cosby rants only reinforced the enemies of Black people, that they’re struggle via their own fault, without regard for racism.

Debra thinks he regret that speech. Dyson rebut there’s no evidence he does. She admit his speech is pretty “rough”.

Dyson wants to debate or wishes he’d at least debate ANYONE on the subject. But don’t think Cosby interest in dialog. He just wants to make proclamations without rebut.

Cosby trades (e.g., via the Cosby Show) on Blackness without acknowledging it fully/fairly in all its nuances...unless it concern po Blacks who can't defend themselves.

Dyson find it inconsistent when Cosby makes mostly subtly/quiet promotion Blackness but makes overt/loud castigations of po’ Blacks.

Debra suggest much of what’s going on with him is is intergenerational or a result of a generation gap. Dyson concurs.

Dyson thinks vulnerability of poor make them easy pickins’. And Cosby’s lack of compassion in this regard is what he resents about what Cosby did.

Dyson contrasted Cosby with Chris Rock. Rock does comedy routine about race but gives both Black and White the business.

Dyson things others project good intent (love for poor Blacks) upon Cosby's words that are NOT evident among what he said.


LiLi,

Don't you realize that that statement directly contradict the substance of Cosby's rants?

Simply, if we can't fault Cosby for the errors of HIS children, how the heck can HE do the SAME to poor Black foks...who have a HELLOFA lot LESS to work with than he does?
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 08:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Addendum:

Dyson as said that most poor Blacks want their children to be educated, articulate, self-supporting and live happy, safe, productive lives and find it wrong/unfair Cosby suggests they don't. That biased, stereotypical thinking proves just how ignorant of and out-of-touch Cosby is with what he's ranting about.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:14 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"...Five or six different children, same woman, eight, ten different husbands or whatever, pretty soon you’re going to have to have DNA cards so you can tell who you’re making love to. You don’t who this is. It might be your grandmother. (laughter) I’m telling you, they’re young enough. Hey, you have a baby when you’re twelve. Your baby turns thirteen and has a baby, how old are you? Huh? Grandmother. By the time you’re twelve, you could have sex with your grandmother, you keep those numbers coming. I’m just predicting..."
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:16 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

you can tell who you’re making love to

Unless they "slip you a mickey" LOL
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 09:21 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

'Vette,

Thanks for the reference. JEEZ! It's even worse than Dyson alluded to in he interview.


My wife says what she thinks is going on with Cosby is he's never gotten over his son's murder and he's now suffering from some form of mental illness whereby he find it intolerable that guys like, say, Snoop Dogg (and all he represent) are alive, rich and beloved...while his son Enis is dead and gone.

And if that's true, what's perhaps saddest of all is NO ONE has the guts to confront him about that.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:26 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I give. It's clear the messenger has issues but the problems still exist and I like to offer solutions not keep beating a dead horse. I have my own family crisis as I mentioned. Im at a loss at the moment what I can do to make a difference in my own situation let alone try to figure out what is Cosby's problem.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 10:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My friend has a son who is a 4.5 student. He has a full ride to OSU and there are allegations he was found selling pot to an undercover (so he can buy clothes..I was told). My own grandson is dealing with the court for being found with "some" susbstance on him. This is what Cosby was saying. Both these young men KNOW better. My grandson and the OSU student BOTH volunteered in the program I run as tutors. Both had goals but for some reason (Im calling them both crazy) they get caught up in the fast money game and we are now at a loss as to the "why" when they both have parents who gave them money.

LiLi, in all seriousness let me say this. What you describe here are very difficult, complex family situations. Middle class and upper class families have to deal with such complexity--and pain--just as low income families do.

Are middle class young men getting "caught up in the fast money game" to somehow "prove" themselves to their working class peers? To impress some girl? To appear "cool" and unique to their upper income White peers? Because they like the excitement and challenge of walking on the "wild side"?

It's hard to say. And the fact that we can't say makes it that much harder for middle class parents to see thier children going down the wrong path after all that they've sacrificed for them. These parents deserve assistance and support.

Not derision.

I say the same thing about low income families and parents. I can only speak of the parents I know personally. I know that they "got pregnant" because they had some hope that things were not going to always be so bad for them and their little bundles of joy. They thought maybe this little baby would beat the odds.

These were not parents who were on their way to becoming Rhodes scholars if only they hadn't gotten pregnant.

These were young people who had spent the last 15, 16, 17, 19 years (to use a few ages of actual people I'm thinking of) in crumbling neighborhoods where the factory that formerly employed their grandfathers and great-uncles closed down.

These were young people who had spent their whole school years in schools that were mainly designed to keep them off the street and out of the rest of our hair instead of really trying to educate them.

One friend of mine told me yeah, she always bought her son the shoes he wanted. (NOT $500 pair, however, as Cos seems to imagine.) Because she didn't want him getting them through some other means. This son recently graduated from college.

The younger son has not done as well. Is this her "fault" for buying him, too, the shoes he wanted? Or did he feel pressure to live up to the good example of his older brother? Or was it genetics from his father? (The boys have different fathers.)

It's hard to say.

But I say again:

This parent deserves assistance and support.

Not derision.


As do you, your child dealing with your grandson, and your friend. You will be in my thoughts.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 02:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I appreciate your kind words.
LiLi
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 02:56 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

‘Vette,

Well said. And BRAVO.

I grew up in ‘dah hood’. I was a good kid. No crime. Never smoked a joint, much less indulged crack, smack, etc.

But I was in MANY scenarios that just by virtue of where I was at a point in time through NO fault/intent of my own could have resulted in my being arrested/convicted/imprisoned.

So whenever I hear a Cosby blame poor Blacks without acknowledging their struggles, the forces that lure and coerce them into trouble, that $#@+ don’t sit well with me one iota.


LiLi,

No one’s trying to “win” an argument here. Truly, I think we ALL are afraid of and overwhelmed by what going on. We want to blame and lash out out someone, anyone. But turning a blind eye to your own struggles, you're own complicity to the problem, even if your Bill Cosby, won’t solve anything.

It'll only worsen things.

I sympathize with what your family is enduring. I hope that your grandson and his companion are getting the best legal help possible. And that even if they’re found guilty (Though, remember: They are “innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law.”), they’re able to survive whatever punishment is dealt to them so that they can still become healthy, productive and law-adiding men.

What I’d ask you to do is consider your situation as a microcosm of, as suggested by ‘Vette, a confluence of various issues and influences. That they cannot be simplistically addressed via biased, one-sided rhetoric and that we ALL are responsible for their cause...and, thus, their cure.


Btw: I was reading in a newpaper recently an example of prosecutors releasing a young Black kid because it was discovered, totally unbeknownst to him, that drugs had been planted on him by someone else. So PLEASE be sure to give your grandson a fair chance to prove his innocence before you presume his guilt.

And may GOD Bless him, his parents and you. :-)
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Jmho
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 04:45 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jmho..his antics as an adult aside..you dont think Cosby was a good father..?

JMHO responds:
If I am using his standards as to how he defines a good parent -- one's children and their actions as the barometer -- then I would say it's debatable. That was the point I was trying to get across. The standards in which he is deciding who's a good (or bad) parent should also be applied to himself. Just as Cosby don't want to be judged as a good parent, by the actions of children, then why does he think it should held for others. He doesn't get to be the exception to his rule, just because he gave a lot of money to colleges/universities, he had a hit TV show, his wife was a good mother, etc. If he think a child's actions, good or bad, are reflective of the parents, then he is included, too.


I still agree with him and it needed to be said.

JMHO responds:
Honestly, do you think that what he said, that most people didn't know already or it haven't been said before? Okay, so it's been said again, by Mr. Cosby himself, but has anything changed? Ironically, he didn't speak directly "those people" he was talking about, so how did he think they were going hear what needed to be said to them? To me, it was all about grandstanding.
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Jmho
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 04:55 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not directed at anyone specifically, but I never could understand, when a child does good, then the parents get a share of the kudos, of the child's achievements, but when a child goes astray, then it's totally the child's fault, and the parents are absolved of any 'responsibility' or blame. To me, either parenting skills do have an effect on the child or they don't. And, not just when the child does good. This is the graduation season, and at each program, I'd bet, parents of the graduates, are acknowledged, for their hand, they've had in their child's academic success. But let a child land in jail or prison, then it's taboo to acknowledge the parents' role. Just something I've noticed and often wondered about.

I do understand you can be the 'perfect' parent and your child can still come out screwy but then maybe that was part of the problem -- perfection.
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Cynique
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 04:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Libralind, your story is a familiar one. As they say, it happens in the best of families. They really need to decriminalize pot possession. It's no worse than alcohol. Hope everything works out OK. I have a grandson and I feel your pain.
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 05:14 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jmho,

I agree the contradiction you describe appear prevalent.

But at some point or level we're all individuals and march by the beat of our own drum. Therefore, I don't think that most parents should be especially blamed or congratulated for the failures and successes of their offspring.

Could Cosby be at least partly at fault for his daughter's cocaine addiction? Perhaps. But his 4 other children apparently eschew such trouble.

Thus, perhaps that particular daughter defied her parents tenets.

She was exposed to some set of stimuli unique to her.

Or maybe her @$$ just wanted to get 'high', dayam what Bill, Camille and the rest of the world thought.

Go figure!

We probably will never be able to fairly discern what happened. Nor is that really important.

Because I (and most parents) could comfortably presume that Cosby has done the very best he can for his family, provided he do that same for those who are not as blessed as he.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Monday, May 16, 2005 - 05:55 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

JmHo: All your points are valid. I stand by my comments.
Cynique: Thank you much for your kind words.
Abm: I have found out my grandson is being charged with "abuse" and the prosecutor can call him back anytime from a year to 6 years. Thanks for your kind words as well.
LiLi
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Jmho
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 12:15 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was shocked to read the following in a review:

Not surprisingly, Dyson says Cosby's attack on these groups amounts to casting the first stone and seeming not to realize that he lives in a glass castle. He points out that Cosby dropped out of high school after flunking the 10th grade three times, earned his GED after enlisting in the Navy and never finished his work for a bachelor's degree from Temple University. The degree was eventually bestowed on him because of "life experiences," Dyson reports, adding that the doctorate Cosby was awarded in education from the University of Massachusetts was not without controversy, either.

According to Dyson, one member of Cosby's dissertation committee, Reginald Damerell, reported that Cosby hardly took a class and claimed Cosby's degree did not "attest to genuine academic achievement."

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/entertainment/reviews.nsf/book/story/1A9E61DB69 5E0EFC86256FF900722B9B?OpenDocument
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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 03:49 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If I hadn't already known this about Cosby, I still wouldn't have been surprised. Richard Pryor and Chris Rock were also drop-outs. Having a gift for comedy is not something you have to go to school for. Many comedians were poor students and mis-fits, people who glean their material from the school of hard knocks and use humor to poke fun at their own shortcomings, often satirizing pomposity in others. Bill Cosby is an imperfect man. And he certainly leaves something to be desired when it comes to being a role model. But none of this disqualifies him from looking around the black community and "tellin it like it is." And who is to say that he hasn't paid his dues???
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 03:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have no education either.

So this only makes me feel kinship with Cosby.

I don't agree with EVERYTHING he says---and of course, he's been RICH for a very long time---but I DO feel that he's "FOR US", not against us. I really do. And I do think that fathers tend to come down hard on their children when they love them.

I don't see why we cant' forgive the "tone" and take some nourishment from the message.



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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 03:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,

This has little to do with the qualification of becoming a comedian.

The difference between Cos and those other brothahs is neither Pryor or Rock have peddled themselves as some self-righteous, self-aggrandizing, pseudo-intellectual. And Pryor in particular has been FAR more critical of HIMSELF than he has of anyone else.

So, for me at least, it's easier to vibe with them over Cos.

And, yeah, Cosby's definitely earned the right to tell it like it is. Dyson, myself and many others think, though, WE have the right to "tell it" when/where he's WRONG.
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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:04 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola: "I don't see why we cant' forgive the "tone" and take some nourishment from the message."

ABM: I think its because a lot of us view Cosby's "message" much like how you view those uppidy blue veined DC'ers. It's only in support of certain Black foks, and denegration of others. You, being the great advocate of social fairness/equity amongst Blacks, MUST appreciate that.
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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

This has ZERO to do with whether or how many degrees one possesses. I'd place YOUR knowledge and writing abilities amongst those who hold high-grade PhD's.

This is about someone arrogantly mouthing one thing and BEING something else and NOT even having the stones to abide being called on his duplicity.

But I love Bill Cosby too.

And I think he's a profoundly accomplished, skilled and talented man. I even think he's probably be the very best father he could be given his profession/profile.

And we ALL are human. We make mistakes...sometime really BIG ones, even.

So if he'd just climb down off his highhorse, admit to his own mistakes/hypocrisy and say Mea Culpa, then start talking about how ALL Black foks need to come together to move forward, I'd not only never give him another moments trouble...I'd volunteer to help him.
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:14 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But ABM....this is "BILL COSBY".

Do you really believe that he doesn't identify with POOR BLACKS?

I don't believe that.

I truly believe that he understands black people in poverty IMMENSELY.

But why is it that the "poor negros" of 2005 are so much more Misguided, Unruly and Self-Destructive than the ones in the 1950's?

This indicates that he's right.

I believe that the QUALITY of person has truly degenerated---and I blame the "moral values" of the HIP HOP Revolution, which is basically a PIMP-HO culture that says....."don't hate, anything goes"....."me, me, me"....."bling, bling"...

I do not buy into the notion that Bill Cosby doesn't care about or understand POOR PEOPLE....or that he was attacking us for being poor.

I agreed with a lot of what he said, because it was just plain COMMON SENSE.

I most definitely know the CIRCUMSTANCES and the sense of HOPELESSNESS that causes our people to be so wayward......but at some point you have to endeavor to change your situation......and as Lauryn Hill recently sang with regard to blacks at the bottom, "I am the problem---the problem is ME."

We've not set the EXPECTATIONS very high for the "inner quality" of our children.

Just look at the Florida kid with a leash around his neck and a white girl.

All of this shit is connected.

NOW...I also agree with DYSON and with YOU that MOST of this degeneration has been caused by the MIDDLE CLASS selling us out and creating poisonous leadership. COSBY fails to mention that.

Blacks don't have anybody but each other---I don't care how they look at it.

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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:31 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I said Cosby was flawed. And being a hypcrite puts him in league with a lot of other black leaders. Cosby has given millions of dollars to black colleges, so he at least puts his money where his mouth is, and really isn't obligated to be get off his high horse. BTW, when Chris Rock did his "I love black people but I hate niggas" routine he said in essence what Cosby echoed.
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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kola,

I may WANT to believe him. I can't really imagine him being anything other than what you describe.

But I'm fortunate enough to enjoy having seem all of what Cosby's done and contextualize it with the bigger picture.

But A LOT of foks are going to view all of what he's about via the the prism of some n*%%@-made-good brothah who stupidly speculate that po' Blacks are so ignant and lustful that they'll mistakenly nail their grandmothers.

And, presuming po Blacks are dumber than their impoverished predecessors (which is in many respects a subject for vigorous debate), I'd say they're that way LARGERLY because the Cosby's of the world have long-since gotten there's and skeedaddled from the hood.

There's little social, intellectual discourse across the class/economic divide.

You blame things on hip-hop. I say hip-hop, at least in it's most degrading forms, might never have garnered a foothold within our communities, had the Cosby's not bailed.

And I recall Russell Simmons saying that when he first started trying to market hip-hop, he was rejected by every BLACK record exec - which, btw, is Cosby's generation - in the music biz.

It was mostly WHITE execs that gave hip-hop at chance.

(You think White guys were gonna give a dayam about the cultural impact of gangstah rap on the hood if they're making BILLIONS of dat $#@+?)

Now, imagine if Berry Gordy or an equivalent had had the foresight to support hip-hop at it's infancy. We might have a very DIFFERENT - perhaps more uplifting - brand of popular music altogether. (Plus, there might be A LOT more Blacks making fortunes from it than are now.)

Now I agree that's all hindsight. But my point is its foks like Cosby who've either directly or indirect help make the mess we're in.

So for him (them) to come along now and self-righteously point fingers is as hypocritical as it is ineffectual.

And for a man who reputes to be a great advocate of education and self-discovery, it seems oddly unfortunate that he (and those who think like him) fail to see that.
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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:37 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,

1) "Niggers" come in ALL socio-economic backgrounds. Baby, there are straight NIGGERS who live in mansion and have 8-figure trust funds.

1) When Cosby tells a SINGLE joke as acerbically critical of WHITE people as Rock's done DOZENS of times, send me a shoutout.
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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(I guess that second line item should have been preceeded by a "2)". See what happens when you get too comfortable riding on your high horse? Hehe!)
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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:48 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why would I send you a shout-out because Cosby and Rock represent 2 different styles of comedy?? And there's something to be said for niggas who are self-sufficient. Also, be advised that I'm seeking neither your approval of, or agreement with that statement.
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Abm
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 04:53 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique,

There're different styles indeed. One's timely, provocative, relevant...edgy.

Then there's Cosby's.

Define for me a "self-sufficient nigga". Such appears oxymoronic to me.

Cynique, the day we consistently agree is the day I fire my primary doctor and start making burial arrangements.
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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 05:50 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A self-sufficient nigga is self-explanatory, using your broad range of where niggas are found.
Primary doctor, huh? What's wrong old guy, ya got high blood pressure? Not me.
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Kola_boof
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:04 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cynique, I wish that Troy would fix the "profile" THINGY on my board so that you would post.

I have asked him, but gotten no repsonse.

I'm sorry and hope you don't hold it against me.


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Cynique
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Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 11:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't have a problem posting on your board, if add an extra "n" to my name. When I find an interesting subject to comment on there, I do so.
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Libralind2
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Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 08:28 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm writes: And we ALL are human. We make mistakes...sometime really BIG ones, even.

Oh how I know this to be true...
LiLi
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm

Post Number: 2902
Registered: 04-2004

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Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 08:57 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LiLi,

EEWWW! Just how "true" is that for you?
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Libralind2
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Libralind2

Post Number: 92
Registered: 09-2004

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Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 09:33 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm: too many for me to write here. LOL In fact Im mulling over the "book"
LiLi
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais

Post Number: 484
Registered: 01-2005

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Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 05:23 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In between the T&A videos, Michael E. Dyson is on "Rap City" on BET.
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Abm
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Username: Abm

Post Number: 2945
Registered: 04-2004

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Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 05:28 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mah,

If the mountain(s) won't come to Muhammad, Muhammad must go to the mountain(s).
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Nels
Newbie Poster
Username: Nels

Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2005

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Posted on Thursday, July 28, 2005 - 02:23 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wouldn’t it be interesting to anonymously poll the targets of the Cos’ comments, and see exactly how many of them agree with him. The results might actually be suprising.
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Deebaby
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Username: Deebaby

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2005

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Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 06:26 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill Cosby

*shaking head*

He's been out of the hood for a looong time.

I hope he feels better soon.

Certainly enough havoc has taken place in his own life for him to use himself and his family as examples instread of referring to other people's children as dirty laundry.

He touched on so much that really doesn't much matter in the larger scheme of things - dress, children's names, use of slang.

Don't even wanna start picking that mess apart, again.

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