| Author |
Message |
    
Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 46
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 12:23 pm: | 
|
Frankly, we should be relieved they didnt shoot her.
KINDERGARTENER'S ARREST // Videotape shows police handcuffing 5- year-old; [SOUTH PINELLAS Edition]
THOMAS C. TOBIN. St. Petersburg Times. St. Petersburg, Fla.: Apr 22, 2005. pg. 1.B
Full Text (1429 words)
Copyright Times Publishing Co. Apr 22, 2005
Videotape was rolling March 14 when the 5-year-old girl swung again and again, her bantam punches landing on the outstretched palms of Nicole Dibenedetto, the new assistant principal at Fairmount Park Elementary.
She tore papers off Dibenedetto's bulletin board and desk. She climbed on a table four times. About an hour had passed since she refused to participate in a kindergarten math lesson, which escalated into a series of defiant and destructive acts.
Dibenedetto had used tactics from a Pinellas school district training called Crisis Prevention Intervention:
Let the child know her actions have consequences but also try to "de-escalate."
Give her opportunities to end the conflict.
Try not to touch her, defend yourself and make sure no one else gets hurt.
As St. Petersburg police officers arrived shortly after 3 p.m., the girl suddenly sat quietly at Dibenedetto's table. And, just as suddenly, the tactics used by educators gave way to the more direct approach of law enforcement.
An officer sternly said the girl's name. Then: "You need to calm down. You need to do it now. OK?"
Seconds later, three officers approached and placed their hands on the girl's wrists and upper arms. They stood her up, put her arms behind her back and put on handcuffs. She bent over the table and let out a terrified scream.
"No. Nooooo. Ahhhhh."
The tape ends there.
Largo lawyer John Trevena provided it to the St. Petersburg Times this week after obtaining it from police.
"The image itself will be seared into people's minds when you have three police officers bending a child over a table and forcibly handcuffing her," said Trevena, who represents the girl's mother, Inga Akins. "It's incomprehensible She was sitting calmly at the table. There was no need for that."
The Police Department declined to comment, citing an official complaint by Akins that has sparked an investigation by the supervisor of the four officers involved. Two are new officers who were being trained that day. Police spokesman Bill Proffitt said the investigation would be complete in about two weeks and the findings would be made public.
The tape's existence is a fluke. The girl's teacher, Christina Ottersbach, was videotaping her class as a self-improvement exercise, district officials have said. Educators simply kept the camera rolling when the girl began to act out, prompting Dibenedetto to intervene and Ottersbach to escort her other students to another classroom.
Later, Ottersbach retrieved the camera from the classroom when the girl began to make a mess of Dibenedetto's office.
The tape, which lasts about 30 minutes, begins with Dibenedetto alone in the classroom with the girl, saying the child's name frequently as part of her commands.
"You need to stop," she tells her, using her hands to make the sign language signal for stop. "You don't get to wreck the room."
Using her radio, she calls for help from teacher Patti Tsaousis. She also asks the school office to call the girl's mother and tell her the school will have to call Pinellas Schools police if the behavior continues.
Word comes back that the mother would not be able to make it until 3:15 p.m. It is shortly after 2 p.m.
A short time later, the girl is heard off camera breaking a ceramic or plastic apple on Ottersbach's desk.
"Oh, you broke her apple," Dibenedetto says. "That is so sad."
Throughout the 23-minute segment in the classroom, the assistant principal tells the girl many times to stop, that her actions are "not acceptable." She tells her she needs to take her to her office to prepare for her mother's arrival.
The girl responds to each request with a curt, "No." When the girl reaches out to strike them at times, Dibenedetto and Tsaousis tell her to stop and hold their hands up in defense.
Dibenedetto and Tsaousis have two breakthroughs - once when they persuade the girl to clean up a small mess she made near Ottersbach's office and another when they finally get her to leave the classroom with them.
In the second instance, Dibenedetto brings herself to eye level with the girl and tries to get her to talk about why she's upset. She gives the girl the option of walking with her or Tsaousis to the office. When the girl relents, the educators praise her for making an "excellent choice."
The Times interviewed several top educators, including two district officials who had seen the video and two professors at the University of South Florida's College of Education.
All praised Dibenedetto for using patience and good training in a tough situation. They said she gave the girl wide latitude to opt for better behavior, used clear commands, called for help from another educator, removed the other students from the room for their safety and to eliminate an audience for the girl, reinforced commands with hand motions and successfully avoided physical confrontation.
Touching the girl, they said, would have escalated the situation.
The two educators "can't control what the children do, but they can control how they respond to it and, to me, they responded admirably," said Robert Egley, an assistant education professor at USF in St. Petersburg. "I give them an A-plus."
Trevena, the lawyer, disagreed, saying it appeared to him the two educators followed the girl too closely around the room. "It almost seemed like there was an intent to provoke the child," he said.
Akins, the girl's mother, said she had complained to the school about the assistant principal's treatment of her daughter. She said the administrator has been too harsh with the girl. The police had been called to the school at least once before in response to the girl's behavior. The girl has since transferred to another public school.
Dibenedetto could not be reached Thursday for comment.
More clear cut, Trevena said, are the police officers' actions and the Police Department's reaction. "It should have been denounced (by department higher-ups) as absurd, as excessive," he said. "That, I think, is even more alarming."
After being handcuffed and placed in the back of a police cruiser, police released the girl to her mother after the State Attorney's Office informed them a 5-year-old would never be prosecuted.
Educators declined to discuss the Police Department's role in the incident.
But they all agreed that once police are called to a school, the situation is theirs to run. "I wasn't physically there," said Mike Bessette, an area superintendent whose responsibility includes Fairmount Park Elementary. "I take it they felt they needed to do what they did."
ON THE WEB
To view the school video, go to www.sptimes.com.
12 MINUTES: Nearly halfway into a 30-minute videotape provided by a lawyer for the girl's mother, assistant principal Nicole Dibenedetto, in red, and teacher Patti Tsaousis sit with the girl as she cleans up a mess in the classroom.
18 MINUTES: Dibenedetto comes to eye level with the girl, trying to get her to talk about what is bothering her. The discussion eventually leads to the girl's decision to go to the assistant principal's office.
24 MINUTES: Later in the assistant principal's office, the girl swings at Dibenedetto several times. "Don't touch," the administrator says. "Do not hit." A school staffer is heard to say, "We need more suspensions."
25 MINUTES: The girl, her shoes untied, climbs onto the table in the assistant principal's office four times. Each time, Dibenedetto reaches to her waist and removes her.
27 MINUTES: The girl sits quietly as four St. Petersburg police officers arrive. One of them knows her from when she acted out days earlier and police were called. "You need to calm down," he tells her. "You need to do it now."
27 1/2 MINUTES: "No. Noooooo," the girl screams as police place metal handcuffs on her. They later switch to "zip-ties" to fit her small wrists. But when she kicks an officer in the cruiser, they put handcuffs on her ankles.
[Illustration]
Caption: 12 MINUTES: Nicole Dibenedetto and Patti Tsaousis sit with the girl as she cleans up a mess. (ran City & State, Metro & State); 18 MINUTES: Dibenedetto comes to eye level with the girl. (ran City & State, Metro & State); 24 MINUTES: The girl swings; at Dibenedetto several times.; 25 MINUTES: The girl climbs onto the table in Dibenedetto's office. (ran City & State, Metro & State); 27 MINUTES: The girl sits quietly as four St. Petersburg police officers arrive. (ran City & State, Metro & State);; 27 1/2 MINUTES: "No. Noooooo," the girl screams as police place metal handcuffs on her.; Photo: PHOTO, (6)
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 125
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
|
I read about this case today. Just shameless. Really. Especially as I sit here looking at my two little brown 5-year-old girls playing. I hope everyone checks this out who responded to my "It Takes a Village..." thread. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 126
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
|
Frankly, we should be relieved they didnt shoot her.
Hmmm...Relief is at the bottom of the list of my reactions to this. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 202
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
|
Wow.
This is something.
The Police Officers reaction was too harsh and overly dramatic. Further proof that the same (immature/power) type of people who are attracted to "gangs" are also attracted to being "cops".
But then again, maybe they were trying to send a Psychological message about "power". I think it backfired.
I really don't know. I'm just shocked.
I do wonder, though--why do children act like this in 2005 and wouldn't dare when I was growing up?
Irregardless of my "feelings"....if I had behaved that way in public with adults.....My AA mother would have had her foot so far up my ass I'd be singing "Get on the good foot---Shop At Payless!"
I'd have wished for handcuffs by the time she got through.
Why didn't the child just LEAVE the room and demand to have her mother contacted to pick her up or something?
I have to admitt...because my sons (7 and 5) are so well behaved and totally different from their ERRATIC MOTHER (they basically raise me)....I'm just not used to children who act out like this.
___________________________
I'm sure the child needs more love, more attention and some SWIFT discipline.
____________________________
The Police need their asses kicked.
|
Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 47
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 01:11 pm: |
|
Yvettep: I was being facetious based on this portion of the article:
27 1/2 MINUTES: "No. Noooooo," the girl screams as police place metal handcuffs on her. They later switch to "zip-ties" to fit her small wrists. But when she kicks an officer in the cruiser, they put handcuffs on her ankles.
The kick could have lead to..ya know a justified shooting. They have used less reasoning to shoot young folks. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2190
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 02:03 pm: |
|
I saw clips of this confrontation on television and calling the police was an overraction to a situation that needed to be handled differently. But it is also a indication of how helpless adults are when it comes to dealing with an unruly child. Children embody a lot of power just by being children. |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 02:25 pm: |
|
I think a lot of the power children embody and the helplessness adults experience comes from the overall inability to discipline these children without the risk of someone wanting to arrest or sue you.
Kola made an interesting point. There was a generation of us that would never have dreamed of acting out in public without knowing it would have meant having the skin peeled off our butts when we got home. And you not only risked that discipline coming from home, but also those neighborhood watchdogs who'd whip you then take you home to tell your parents so you'd get whipped again. But what was once called discipline is now called child abuse.
Compound this with the fact that most of our children today are being reared by young people who are barely out of childhood themselves, uneducated, impoverished and influenced by political agendas and government entities who say they know better than our elders ever did and we've got a situation that surely isn't going to ever get better for our youth. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2337
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 02:28 pm: |
|
We are reaching a point were we may have to SERIOUSLY consider taking 100,000's of Black children from their woefully inept birth parents and putting them in highly regimented orphanage systems. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2191
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 03:47 pm: |
|
Hey Babygirl, and Abm. Glad you 2 are back in the fold.
Babygirl, your remarks coincide with the ones I made in another post in regard to babies raising babies and The System reinforcing dire conditions in order to perpetuuate itself. Too bad we ain't in charge of things. LOL. And, Abm, I guess the Division of Children and Family Services (DCFS)is sadly the closest we'll get to a regulated orphange. Drastic measures need to be taken, but nobody would EVER consider mandatory birth control for single females up to a certain age. And I was angrily challenged when I once quoted the simple formula a social worker offered for alleviating the child-rearing crisis and all of the bad ramifications that it spawns. Her advice for young girls was simply to graduate from high school and delay pregnancy. Maybe this is an oversimplification, but following this advice couldn't hurt. Too bad the burden of all of this falls on the shoulders of females, instead of the males who are a big part of the problem. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 128
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 04:01 pm: |
|
Libralind2, sorry-I understand what you were saying now.
putting them in highly regimented orphanage systems--Oh, but Abm, we're already doing this--it's called foster care, juvenile detention centers, and prisons.
Too bad so many of us are so quick to write off a whole generation of young parents.
I'm sure the child needs more love, more attention and some SWIFT discipline--Kola, yes, quite possible. It's also possible that this child has medical and/or mental health needs that are not being attended to. I wonder were she white would her difficulties be handled in the criminal justice system instead of the medical system...
|
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 203
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 04:14 pm: |
|
Hi Yvette.
Although I was a quiet, introverted kid---I spent my childhood in Psychiatric Care, because my parents were so OBSERVANT and attentive of all 8 of us, and I agree---many children in the black community who have emotional problems are IGNORED and grow up with no therapy at all.
There's a radio interview with my adoptive mother posted in the KOOL ROOM. Not sure if you listened to it, but you should find it interesting.
LAST NOTE:
My mother always told my sisters and I....."Don't have your first baby until you're 25."
That was her RULE.
I had my first son at about 29 (had only one abortion at 17). And I am SO GLAD I listened to my mother.
You're just so much more competent and ready and "know what to do" if you wait until your twenties.
Both my sons own land in Africa, which they can sell and is accruing interest (they're not even 10 yet!)---all because I waited and PLANNED on being "secure". It makes a world of difference and my mother DRUMMED that in.....hourly.
|
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 07:43 pm: |
|
Hey Cynique, glad to be back. Vacation was great, being home is better!
Yvettep: Too bad so many of us are so quick to write off a whole generation of young parents.
I don't know if its about writing them off as much as acknowledging that they need help and we don't know how to do that or aren't allowed to do that. Drastic measures such as those Cynique noted would go against the status quo and that agenda that wants to perpetuate the idea that black mothers don't have a clue about raising their own daughters to be good mothers. We tell our children one thing and the media and government are quick to tell them something else.
There was a time when we were not only taught not to get pregnant but to abstain from sex until we completed school or were at least in a committed marital relationship. Boys were made to own up to their responsibilites even if it had to be done with a shotgun. Like Kola said, there were rules and we followed those rules. Now a days, we can have rules, and the powers that be are telling our children our rules don't mean a thing if they don't like them and all you have to do is pick up a phone and call your local police to get out of the punishment for breaking those rules. Not married, no job, no education, two kids and another on the way - No problem!
Suddenly sexual gratification and a "me, myself,and I" attitude usurps every piece of sound advice our grandmothers and great-grandmothers taught us. Too many of our young women today are so desperate for love and attention they're willing to do anything and anyone to get it and the result is these babes are having babes they don't have a clue what to do with and those sperm donors who enjoyed the moment suddenly don't think they have to enjoy the 18 years of daddyhood that came with it.
And ABM is right, we have to SERIOUSLY figure out how to take back control of our children, no matter how extreme the methods might be.
And I'm ranting...I'll stop now... |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:55 am: |
|
Abm:
You gotta be kidding. If you are not kidding, you are crazy.
All:
There is nothing that any five year old child can do that can justify handcuffing her--her--It was a GIRL they did this to!
Somebody tell me they would have done it to a white child.
I know--they wouldn't have had to. They know how to act.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 145
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
|
Yeah, Chris--funny how a conversation that started off being about teacher and police (inappropriate) action morphed into a discussion about these unruly, all-powerful, awfully-parented Black children.
Did you all even look at the video? At the point where the police officers (note: plural OFFICERS) come in the girl is sitting quietly at the table! All the while the one woman (asst principal) is "handling" the situation, the other woman (teacher?) is rolling tape (hello? How about putting the d*** camera down and helping?) and talking loudly to other folks coming around to see what's going on.
At one point the girl is sitting down and the woman filming captures a pictire of her through the vertical blinds of a window in an absolute compelling shot that reminds me of jail bars or zoo bars... The girl looks up, straight into the camera, aware that she is being filmed.
Come on, folks. Is this how we want our children treated? Is there really so little crime in St. Petersburg that they can spare officers to handcuff 5 year olds when teachers are unable to do their jobs? And I say this as a former Head Start teacher (teaching some of the roughest 3, 4 and 5 year olds you've ever seen) and K-1st grade student teacher, and parent of two five year olds.
WTF?????
|
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1105
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
|
All:
Come on. When was that when there existed kids that did not act out in public? I never seen it.
Everyone talks about a mystical time when kids either did not act out in public or they got swatted and stopped.
Well, I was there and I know of times when kids acted out in public and were warned and stopped, and they acted out and they got swatted and stopped, and they acted out and they beat the hid off them and they didn't stop until you had beat them until they were exhausted--
And then as soon as they recovered they acted out again.
This is not about corporal punishment or parents faults (who here knows what home she was in--and who knows what the teacher or principle had done to the little girl or been doing--let me tell you, kids are not wrong all the time, and they can pick up when somebody does not want them around--which is I suspect what is the case)
The thing is there is nothing a five year old GIRL--still nobody is getting this--can do to get handcuffed like a felon.
I mean, how do you expect black children to have any respect for themselves or for us if we allow this.
ABM, you got daughters. They probably can say something--suppose I think, well I'd punch a man in the mouth for saying what they said, and punch her in the mouth?
I know--they wouldn't do that blah blah blah.
This is why exploitation of children will never end. This is alright to do to somebody elses' child--
|
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 120
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 01:44 pm: |
|
Yvettep wrote:
Yeah, Chris--funny how a conversation that started off being about teacher and police (inappropriate) action morphed into a discussion about these unruly, all-powerful, awfully-parented Black children.
But wasn't it one of "these unruly, all-powerful, awfully-parented Black children" that caused the police to have to be called to the school, in the first place? How can the child, and her behavior, be excused or exempted from the incident? I saw both videotapes, and I was just as shocked by the child's behavior, both in the classroom, and in the office, as some seemed to be regarding the teachers, and the police officers.
The mother was called, to the school, but said she couldn't come. Couldn't she have sent the girl's father, her granny, her auntie, a neighbor, anyone to get out her out of control child? All the while, the child is showing out, her classmates are missing their math lesson. Should one child be allowed to totally disrupt the entire classroom and basically hold them hostage from learning?
If a teacher or anyone had haul off and hit that child, to stop her from trashing the room or the office, then the same folks who think they should have been able to control her, would be screaming about that too. (How dare that white teacher hit that misbehaving black child?) And, they certainly couldn’t let her continue, least she hurt herself, like falling off that table and through that glass wall, or hurt another student or teacher, of which she did hit and kick. They tried talking to her for over an hour but to no avail.
Based on what the officer said, in the tape, of which included, this wasn't the first time she had come in contact with him. Me thinks there is way more to this that what was recorded on film that day.
It's as if some think, the 'white' teachers decided, hey, let's call the police to come and take away a 'black' child in handcuffs/plastic ties, just to add some excitement to our day. A lot of parents can’t control their kids yet they expect everyone to be able to do so.
Definitely wished she didn’t have to be restrained in that manner but then I also wished she had stopped when told to do so too.
|
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 204
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 01:47 pm: |
|
I agree Chris.
The cops were dead wrong.
Although, I do think the child is being given too much "slack" by the mother's raising process.
And more than likely----like so many black women who are not "critical thinkers" and don't take the time to be AWARE of the social realities/affects on "Black Female Children"----the mother is vastly ignoring some major issues with the child, and may not even be equipped to grasp the complexities of 2005 society versus 1978 society.
I didn't look at the video.
But most of us believe that our children are just..."normal", "good" like everybody else's kids.....and we encourage them to "fit in". Especially black children with "issues" are told---"don't whine, don't rock the boat"---FIT IN.
Conform.
We put ribbons in little black girls' hair (hair that is often chemically treated as young as 5) and give them dainty dresses and send them off to a society that HATES them---and hates them "increasingly"---because the word on the street NOW (and this wasn't the word in 1965), but in 2005 the word is that black girls are obsolete--unless they're mixed or look like T.V. black girls.
Little black girls are teased and ignored by EVERYONE. Many black boys take supreme joy in feeling superior to/harassing black girls (the only thing lower and less protected than they are) and encourage little girls of OTHER races to do it---for their watching enjoyment and so that they can build SOLIDARITY with "those girls" who society says are "normal" and "acceptable". The thread on FANTASIA where the black boys sided with the Mexican girls AGAINST the black girls in not allowing Fantasia's photo on the wall.....pointed that out big time.
These FACTS....are commonly IGNORED by black people in our communities. DENIED and overlooked.
Black women roll their eyes and suck their teeth all the time when I mention these INTRICATE realities. They push their processed hair out of their faces or throw up "God", "Jesus" and all those CRUTCHES.
Black men...just plain don't give a fuck about black children, truth be told--the society rewards them for NOT CARING, and have little to say...PERIOD.
There is a mental death in Black youth going on since the late 70's now. And black adults ROUTINELY refuse to "see" it.
And it is related to COLOR and the fact that "blackness" is less valued by black people more now than in any time in our history---worldwide.
The result is a bunch of fucked up children who feel no joy, no love and don't BELIEVE in anything---because "black people", as a whole, don't STAND for anything.
|
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2194
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 01:57 pm: |
|
I'm not shedding any tears over the situation. A smarmy lawyer is now on the case, there to represent the child and her mother, ready to sue the school and the cops. And so it goes. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 02:01 pm: |
|
"The thing is there is nothing a five year old GIRL--still nobody is getting this--can do to get handcuffed like a felon."
I challenge any of you to find the place in the police manual of any jurisdiction where it states that it is OK to deploy multiple officers to handcuff an unarmed, 5-year-old child. Go ahead.
|
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 205
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 02:13 pm: |
|
LOOOLLLLL
See why we have to respect Cynique.
She just accepts her place at the table and refuses to cut anybody's meat for them.
If somebody spills their juice--she cuts her eyes and looks to the lord in exasperation.
They get no refill.
This is why I truly like Cynique so much, because she refuses to let the world worry her One Good Nerve.
LOL
|
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 206
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 02:18 pm: |
|
Yvette I totally agree with you about the police. So does Chris Hayden.
__________
NOW:
I do recall a 7 yr. old black boy in Florida that shot and killed his 5 yr. old black girl playmate.
Was that his sister? Anybody remember?
Anwyay. I do think that there are "freak incidents" when it very well would be necessary to handcuff a 5 year old.
THIS INCIDENT---was not one of them.
But if a 5 yr. old had a loaded gun and had fired it----I would not mind seeing that child handcuffed during processing, because you don't know what else they might try or what other damage they can do.
In many ways....parents are not allowed to parent and SOME children are "grown" as hell, because "too much freedom" says so.
|
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2195
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 02:18 pm: |
|
Lucky for the mother that there isn't a law on the books, or she wouldn't be able to sue. I think the child's "offense" represents a misdeameanor not a felony. Your outrage is shared by many, but not by all. Those of us who are not that up in arms are case-hardened. It's a sign of the times, times where students are killing and injuring teachers and each other in classrooms and on playgrounds. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 207
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 02:23 pm: |
|
I admit to feeling the same exasperated tiredness that Cynique expresses over this incident/case.
It's to the point where we EXPECT to hear this...rather than being shocked.
|
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 208
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 02:31 pm: |
|
When I was a kid, my MOTHER got on our nerves saying this one thing ALL THE TIME:
"Without good students...there can be no good teachers or good schools. The students make the teacher and the students make the school."
My parents used to get in our ass----about how we were LUCKY to even go to school and how CLOSE BY and convenient the school was.
They used to tell us some stories about trying to learn "basic education" in the South.
When we left for school in the morning.....we FELT the importance and responsibility of going to school.
And we didn't shame our parents by acting an ass in public.
|
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1106
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 03:46 pm: |
|
Here's what an ex cop has to say about it
---------------------------------------
To all,
As a retired twenty year veteran of the New York State Police, not only have I never had the opportunity or inclination to arrest a five year old child but I can't imagine circumstances under which it would have been necessary to handcuff someone that age. After having seen the tape of the recent incident in St. Petersburg, FL during which a five year old African American girl was arrested and handcuffed behind her back in school by three (3) St. Petersburg police officers, my perspective has not changed. I still do not believe that there exists any situation during which I would have felt compelled to treat a child, even one as unruly and out of control as this little girl obviously was, in this way.
When we arrive at a point in time and history when it is acceptable for sworn police officers to react in this way, then it should also be acceptable and understandable when innocent adults are gunned down.
Maybe you are asking yourself "how could this be acceptable to anyone?" Well, the majority of those polled to date by AOL believe that the police were justified in their behavior.
Some of you have been members of the law enforcement community, most of you have not.
Regardless of your experience, all of you either have children or grandchildren or know someone who does and it is my belief that, if you have seen the tape, you will agree, to one extent or another with my assessment.
If you do, PLEASE do not be satisfied with the shaking of your head or the utterances of platitudes. Please write to Governor Jeb Bush, The ACLU, The Justice Department, and the St. Petersburg Police Department voicing your concern regarding the lack of professionalism and compassion that these officers displayed.
Thank you for your time in reading this.
A. Ashe
|
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 06:21 pm: |
|
Chrishayden wrote:
When we arrive at a point in time and history when it is acceptable for sworn police officers to react in this way, then it should also be acceptable and understandable when innocent adults are gunned down.
How does one jump in logic, from having the police called to a school, after which teachers tried for over an hour to control and calm a very unruly, disruptive and destructive child, in a public school, to the police *innocently* gunning down adults, as being the same? Perhaps, if the videotapes showed that the child was quietly sitting in the classroom, doing her school work as instructed by her teacher, and the cops burst in, then maybe I could see this leap in logic.
Curious, what's the magic age? 5? 10? 15? Or not at all, for school-aged children?
If a teacher can't control the students then should that teacher be fired, and one hired who can, regardless of their methods of control and discipline?
I keep hearing/reading what shouldn't have been done, but don't hear much of what should have been done? Anyone got any suggestions? Such an incident will probably erupt again, so what should the teachers and/or administrators do, with 'out of control' children? Especially those children who have a history or pattern of misbehavior.
|
Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 49
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 10:57 pm: |
|
I have a suggestion as to your comments of what could have been done. First of all, she is a child. She knew she was being taped and she acted like she was suppose to act being 5. Being 5 does not mean she is stupid. You think she didnt know they were taping her to be used as "this is how we treat black children when they act up" so she gave them the show they wanted. Then the "show" got out of control and instead of the teacher turning off the tape she followed the child, got in her face, PUT HER HANDS ON HER several times and I really dont care if it was to remove her from the table. All the principal or teacher or whoever had to do was to leave the child alone. The stuff everyone else is calling terrorizing is what I see daily in the program I run. Kids like to take stuff off the board. Throw books and anything else they think they can get away with. They were not trying to calm her down. They were setting her up so we can have this discussion. ALL kids have a pattern of misbehavior. Thats why we have parents. If anyone here NEVER acted out when you were between the ages of 0-18, please raise your hand. I got so many beatins I thought my name was "switch". I was told to go get a "switch" so often..lawd. |
Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
|
Mother fires lawyer in handcuffing case
By THOMAS C. TOBIN, Times Staff Writer
Published April 25, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ST. PETERSBURG - The mother of the 5-year-old girl who was handcuffed by police last month at her school has fired the lawyer representing her in the matter.
Largo attorney John Travena said Monday that the mother, Inga Akins of St. Petersburg, notified him of the firing by a faxed letter shortly before 9 a.m. today. The fax contained a heading from the tabloid television show, A Current Affair. Trevena had just completed interviews on five network morning shows when he received the message.
It was a bizarre twist in a case that has grabbed international media attention since Friday, when a video of the handcuffing and the events leading up to it became public.
Educators at Fairmount Park Elementary in St. Petersburg created the video March 14. It showed the girl defying an assistant principal and another school staff member as she tore items off walls and swung her fists at the educators. It later shows the girl in the assistant principal's office tearing items off a bulletin board, climbing on a table and swinging at the assistant principal numerous times.
The video ends after about 28 minutes with the girl crying as three St. Petersburg police officers place her in handcuffs.
Trevena said a producer from A Current Affair "raged" at him last Friday after the St. Petersburg Times published a story and photos of the video. The Times also placed an edited version of the video on its Web site. Trevena then released the video to numerous other media outlets locally and nationally.
Trevena said the producer told him A Current Affair had exclusive rights to the woman's story. The woman granted the show an interview several weeks ago, shortly after the handcuffing. She appeared on the show with her daughter.
Trevena said Akins had not told him about the exclusive deal. He said she did not express any dissatisfaction with his services during a phone call Saturday from New York.
He said he learned Friday that the program paid to have Akins flown to New York over the weekend and paid for her lodging.
He called the show's actions "highly unethical and possibly illegal."
A spokeswoman for A Current Affair, Daniella Cracknell, said the show had no comment. She would not say how much the show is paying Akins under the agreement.
|
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 209
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
|
Well.....THAT.....says a lot about the mother.
SMH
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 09:28 am: |
|
Good morning!
More on Florida and arresting kids here:
http://minorjive.typepad.com/hungryblues/2005/04/arresting_child.html |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1107
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
|
Jmho:
The words I posted are not mine and I agreed with them.
What is wrong with Black people these days? Why is there even any discussion of this? Who here would allow their child to be treated in this manner no matter what they had done? Anyone?
If you will allow your child to be treated that way and say so--and I haven't seen one person who posted here say that they'd like to see their little girl or niece or grandchild handcuffed like a felon--then I don't know what to say. Maybe we have been getting what we deserved over the last 500 years.
Jmho--it is not my goddam JOB to tell anybody what they should have done. All I need to know is what SHOULD NOT have been done--seen one of our children treated like a monkey. That's what they did. Treated her just like a monkey. I was thinking, "Look how they're dealing with the monkey"
That's just what they think about all of us. And folks here want to go along with it?
I can't believe this. |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:07 am: |
|
Libralind2 wrote:
First of all, she is a child. She knew she was being taped and she acted like she was suppose to act being 5. Being 5 does not mean she is stupid. You think she didnt know they were taping her to be used as "this is how we treat black children when they act up" so she gave them the show they wanted.
Since she knew she was being taped, then why didn't her other classmates also act in a similar manner, since they probably knew they were being taped too? Interestingly, they didn't see the need to put on a "show" for the camera. The camera wasn't just on her; it was on the entire classroom. If she wants to act and put on a show for the camera, then her parents need to take her to Hollywood. This way she will get paid for such behavior.
Libralind2 wrote:
Then the "show" got out of control and instead of the teacher turning off the tape she followed the child, got in her face, PUT HER HANDS ON HER several times and I really don’t care if it was to remove her from the table. All the principal or teacher or whoever had to do was to leave the child alone.
Don't think you, if they left her alone do as she pleased, that she would've destroyed the room and the office? Or hurt herself or one of her other classmates? So, you're seriously suggesting they let her do whatever the heck she wants, and then just sue her parents for her destruction of property, and/or harm to others. Or if she injured herself, it would have been fine since it was self-induced?
Another thing to consider, now the classmates see that when they want to what they want and behave as they want and not obey instructions from my teachers, I just act like my fellow classmate, because I know the teacher will stand around and do nothing. When will any learning take place? That was a classroom not the playground.
If this was a private school it would have never gotten to this point. The first time she began to act out, they would put her out of the school, and filled her slot with another child on their waiting list. The public school has no choice.
Libralind2 wrote:
The stuff everyone else is calling terrorizing is what I see daily in the program I run. Kids like to take stuff off the board. Throw books and anything else they think they can get away with.
I seriously doubt that you've had any child to do as what was recorded on that videotape. But, if you have, how do you get anything done, since you are probably spending most of your time trying to keep chaos down in your program? How did you restore order and regain control, if you in fact do? How does anyone accomplish anything in such an environment?
Sure, children will test adults, to see what they can get away with, but doesn’t mean you allow them to do it. What if she had thrown a book and hit another child, and if her parents are sued, then the first thing you'll say, why didn't the teacher stop her before she hurt her classmate? You can have it both ways. Behaving in a classroom is start of learning to control your self in such a setting. If she misses this at age 5 then think how will she behave in a class at 15 years old? So at 15 years old, when she could possible jack up her teacher up and then will the police be justified to come take her away in handcuffs? Is 5 years too young (to start) to teach a child, what are acceptable and unacceptable forms of behavior?
Libralind2 wrote:
They were not trying to calm her down. They were setting her up so we can have this discussion.
I suspect we just have different interpretation of the viewing of the videotapes, which is fine. You sound just like her parent -- the teachers set her up. I really don't think her teacher gives a rat's behind on what we discuss on this message board, but hey, that's just me. In fact, I doubt they did any of this to gander attention to their school.
Libralind2 wrote:
ALL kids have a pattern of misbehavior. Thats why we have parents.
Obviously, her parents are falling down on the job. This child knew her parent was being called to come down to the school but it didn't stop her, not in the least bit.
Libralind2 wrote:
If anyone here NEVER acted out when you were between the ages of 0-18, please raise your hand.
I can say that I have never defiantly and repeatedly disobeyed my teachers. I have never slung at my teacher or hit and kicked my teachers. I can say that I never went around ripping things off the bulletin boards. I can say that I never picked up something from on my teacher's desk and dropped it and broke it intentionally. I can say that I have never gone over a bookcase and threw books down off of it in my classroom. I have never caused a ruckus in which stopped where my classmates had to clear the room and stopped their learning. I can I that I have never told a teacher no after they have told me to stop. I can say that I have never given a reason for my teacher to call the cops on me.
Its one thing to "act out" but quite another of the behavior and actions that was on those videotapes. We have gone from it’s the teacher’s fault, it’s the vice principal’s fault, it’s the officers’ fault, its racism fault, to it’s everybody else’s fault but that child and her actions and behavior that began all of this. And, Lawd knows, we most certainly can’t place any blame or responsibility on her parents. Sheesh.
I appreciate your suggestion of what should have been done or what should be done, in the future, if there is a similar incident. Just don't agree. Leaving this child alone to do as she wanted wasn't an option especially given she was disrupting the class.
|
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:15 am: |
|
Chrishayden wrote:
Jmho--it is not my goddam JOB to tell anybody what they should have done. All I need to know is what SHOULD NOT have been done--
I am not suggesting that's it's your "goddam JOB" to tell anybody what they should have done or what they should do in the future. I was asking, since everyone seems to know what SHOULD NOT have been done, then what should have been done. It's so much easier and comfortable, after the fact, to say what should not been done, but since it's more likely to happen again, then it seems to be much more proactive, to find viable and productive solutions, of what should be done or what can be done the next time. Folk on this board, ask all the time of solutions, opinions, etc., but when one doesn't have any, then it's seem as it is not "my goddam JOB" to offer suggestions.
If we keep bandaging these gunshot wounds, instead of treating, them we'll forever being saying, after the fact, what SHOULD NOT have been done.
Chrishayden wrote:
I can't believe this.
And, neither can I.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:36 am: |
|
No, Chris, I do not want to go along with this. Not at all.
And I will offer some humble opinions of what could have been done, based on my past training in and experience as a teacher. I do not know the full context of this story. And I will say that generally I am a huge supporter of school teachers--especially public school teachers. Like many of us, likely, on this board I have very strong positive feelings about The Black Schoolteacher as a stablizing force in our communities--I cannot think of such a figure without thinking of my late maternal great aunt--an imposing figure who ran her own private, segragated kindergarten in Houston for many many years, never raising kids of her own but raising my mother and siblings and many other community kids. In short: teaching is often a thankless job, with more and more requirements with fewer and fewer resources to meet them.
BUT. Having said that, my teacher-y sense is tingling in this case based on the following red flags (again, based on limited knowledge of the specifics):
First red flag: The situation of misbehavior that started this whole sequence was sparked, as I understand it, by the girl's acting out during a "math lesson." Now, keep in mind that a huge contributor to behavior difficulties in any pedagogical situation are "lessons" that are not well-matched to sudents' abilities. Thus, I am wondering: What was the "math lesson" in this case for a classroom of 5 year olds?
Further about this lesson, it is not clear to me how she was disrupting it. If she was just not participating, then any astute teacher would not have chosen that as a "battleground"--just let her do what she was doing, finish the lesson with the other children, then later--calmly and privately--talk with the child about her non-participation.
On the other hand, if she was disrupting by, say, hurting other children then this would have required further and immediate intervention. But my sense is, had her behavior been along these lines we would have heard about it.
Second red flag: Related to the above, another frequent contributor to classroom behavioral issues are learning difficiencies in children--either mild (e.g., just need a little extra help) or severe (diagnosed or--more serious--undiagnosed learning disabilities. Children are not "getting it" and they know that everyone else is, and as a result they act out.
In all of this I have only heard that these teachers were following a school or system "procedure" for dealing with behavior issues. (In fact, the filming seemed to me to be a case of documenting that they were, in fact, following this procedure--another red flag...)
I know of no good professional teacher who would follow some general "procedure" in a manual, expecting that it would be adequate to meet the needs of unique, individual children--and the younger the child, often the more inadequate the general guidelines.
It appears clear that this was a litlle girl that the staff had been having problems with for a while. Where was her individualized education plan (IEP)? What steps had they taken to insure that interventions were based on a systematic effort to assist this specific girl? Had she been refered for psychological, learning disability--hell, even vision and hearing screening? (You'd be surprised how many kids act out because they have undiagnosed vision and hearing impairments...)
Third red flag: Isolating this girl in this particular location was totally inappropriate. If the staff knew of her behavior, then they also should know that this office was one of the least appropriate places to put her. Think about it: glass, tables to jump off of, scissors/staplers/pens on the desk...
When I taught, I had a boy (also 5) once who had explosive outbursts that made this girl look like a model student. When he had his fits we worked out a plan to remove him to a large, open, empty gymnasium-type multipurpose room. He was away from other children, there were few things in the room that he could damage or hurt himself on, his anger wasn't further feuled by feeling claustrophobic in a crowded, enclosed area...
Fourth red flag: Really, I cannot imagine what procedure for effective intervention these folks were following. Liberalind probably knows much better than I do, but what I saw on that tape is NOT how you intervene with anyone who is in a state of being so out of control with their anger. In fact, the response was guaranteed to provoke further anger.
Again, drawing on my own experience. One thing that is true of young children is that their emotions are pretty mysterious to them. Anger, especially. Besides anticipating when a child is likely to lose it (which I alluded to above), one thing I was trained to do was to help children recognize their own anger: "Feel your heart, see how fast it is beating...feel your forehead, Is it hot?" And you also do this when they are NOT acting out: Get 'em in front of a mirror--"Look at your beautiful smile! Feel your steady heart beat..." So they can begin to tell the difference.
I was also trained to help children develop tools for stopping their anger: "Take three breaths SOOO big you could swallow a horse! Count to 100... Name out loud all the [Red Sox players you know, people in your family/something else unique and meaningful to the child]..."
You may be laughing at me right now, thinking no way these strategies could have helped in this situation. But I'm saying I saw/have heard nothing to suggest that these teachers ever tried anything along these lines.
You may also be saying it's not these teachers' jobs to go through all these changes for one child. Well, you'd be wrong about that. Public schools are mandated to educate all children. Children in wheelchairs. Children who are hearing impaired. Children who do not speak English. Children who are on Ritalin. Children who "act out." I even know of a case where a school was mandated to provide an instruction plan for a brain dead child (not, as you may be thinking, in Florida).
This girl is 5. She was unarmed. I don't know about any "magic ages," but any school that cannot handle unarmed 5 year olds is a school that is not doing its job.
Here's what I think: This reflects a pattern--especially in states such as Florida. "Toughen up" policies about "accountability" and "achievement" lead to a testing mentality that stresses rote teaching ("skills building," "back to basics"--it's all mindless rote learning in different clothes) at earlier and earlier ages. Teachers are overloaded, and increasingly search for quick fixes instead of doing the hard, individualized, incremental work of teaching kids. It's easier to develop a system wide manual--one that likely serves more to cover asses against lawsuits than help kids--than to get a team of professionals to develop IEPs and other personalized plans. It's easier to keep calling Mom to come pick up a child that you decide cannot be handled than to apply your professional training to attend to the situation.
And, unfortuanately, it is easier--in Florida, at least--to call the cops.
BUT. Whatever. I'm through trying to convince folks that we should care about what was done to one of our children. What the hell, lets do like some are advocating and just start jailing Black children as soon as they're born. Would save everyone a lot of needless work and worry.
|
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
|
I am reading through the blog site posted by Yvettep, and read this article:
Police Handcuff 5-Year-Old After Tantrum
School Had Called Cops to Help With Misbehaving Girl
- The videotaped altercation with a 5-year-old girl who was hauled off in handcuffs following an extended tantrum at her St. Petersburg, Fla., school has led to questions about whether the police overreacted.
The incident occurred March 14, and was captured on videotape because Fairmount Park Elementary School teacher Christina Ottersbach had set up a camcorder in her classroom. She wanted to record herself teaching so she could study her methods and learn how to improve, district officials told the St. Petersburg Times.
She ended up recording nearly a half-hour of video showing the girl alternately lashing out and quietly ignoring her teachers' instructions.
The footage starts in Ottersbach's classroom, where assistant principal Nicole Dibenedetto and teacher Patti Tsaousis were trying to calm the girl down and get her to clean up a mess that she had made.
Ottersbach is not in the room, having pulled her other students out of the classroom because of the girl's unseen outburst, leaving just the three.
"This is your mess to clean up. We need you to stop. You may not do this," Dibenedetto patiently but firmly told the girl, who stubbornly refused.
Eventually, the girl did start cleaning up the mess, but then she refused to leave the room. Only when Dibenedetto and Tsaousis asked her to make a choice before they counted to five did she finally leave with them.
Things evidently did not improve after that, however. The tape cuts to Dibenedetto's office, which has been trashed, apparently by the girl. She is seen ripping papers off the wall and refusing Dibenedetto's requests that she stay seated in a chair.
The girl even becomes violent at that point, taking numerous swings at Dibenedetto, who only puts her hands up to block the girl's punches.
The only other time the assistant principal touches the girl is when the child twice climbs onto a table, and the woman lifts her off and puts her back on the floor, on her feet.
Shortly after that, voices are heard saying that police have arrived. The girl sits down in the chair and remains there as three uniformed St. Petersburg police officers walk in.
"Do you remember me?" one of them asks the girl. "I'm the one who told your mom I'd put handcuffs on you."
The officers immediately pull the girl from the chair and handcuff her behind her back. The tape cuts off just seconds later, after the little girl has started screaming.
"The police officers' actions are way over the top. Three police officers having to forcibly handcuff a 5-year-old little girl? I mean, come on," said John Trevena, the family's attorney. "Is there anything more that needs to be said about that?"
He was also critical of the actions of Dibenedetto and Tsaousis, who he said could have done more to calm the girl.
"I'm concerned that the educators shadowed and hovered around the young girl," he said. "It certainly gives credence to the argument that they may have been provoking her to act out more. To me, it didn't look like a de-escalation. It looked like an escalation, an attempt to get her to act out more. I just don't understand why they didn't distance themselves back further and allow things to cool off."
No charges were filed against the girl, but Trevena promised legal action against the police department on behalf of the family.
Police would not comment on the incident, pending an internal investigation that department officials said would be completed within two weeks.
ABC News affiliate WFTS-TV in Tampa, Fla., contributed to this report.
Copyright © 2005 ABC News Internet Ventures |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
|
Full disclosure: I am not now a teacher. I am pretty much out of that business--In part because of frustrations like this. In fact, during my student teaching days, once the police were called to "handle" a six year old child with minimal English-speaking skills... |
Rustang
Regular Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:53 am: |
|
It's starting to look as if this could turn into a media circus revolving around the character of the mother,which,as far as I can see,is completely irrelevant to having had 3 cops cuff and shackle a 5 year old girl.I suppose firing some of St. Petersburg's finest for such a horrible lapse in judgement is simply out of the question.I see that it will take them a couple of weeks to figure out a way to make this seem to be something other than what it so obviously is.Three people that don't have any business being around people,let alone being around people while in possession of a handgun. |
Jackie
First Time Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
|
It's time for my two cents. I agree with Jmho. I'm a substitute teacher...have been one for almost eight years.
Kola said :Why didn't the child just LEAVE the room and demand to have her mother contacted to pick her up or something?
Kola, you're speaking about this "BABY" as if she were 18 or something.
First of all, ain't no child in my classroom gonna walk out and demand anything. Their asses are going to stay in their seats until they get permission from me to do so.
The girl was whiny, and barely swinging ( now working in Lynwood, CA I've seen some swinging)
That teacher and asst principal need their asses fired !! It pisses me off that our black daughter is on national t.v getting handcuffed by 3 officers !!
Kola said :Anwyay. I do think that there are "freak incidents" when it very well would be necessary to handcuff a 5 year old.
THIS INCIDENT---was not one of them.
But if a 5 yr. old had a loaded gun and had fired it----I would not mind seeing that child handcuffed during processing, because you don't know what else they might try or what other damage they can do. Yeah Kola the five year old might break one of the officers arms or both legs for that matter
You got to be kidding ! First of all, if a teacher found herself in this situation and a five year old had a gun, you think you're gonna have time to go call the police ??? NO ! you tackle the child and take the gun from them. By the time police get there the gun is supposed to be in the possession of authorities (security guards, other teachers)You don't leave the classroom ...a teacher's responsibility is to ensure the safety of all the children.That's the price of being a teacher. During "processing", if anybody gets processesed it would be the owner of the gun and or the parents. You find out where the child got the gun from in the first place.
Lastly, there was absolutely no reason to bring the police in this with a whiny 5 year old tearing papers off the wall and softly swinging mostly in the air and at adults. Obvioulsy, baby girl has some emotional issues that need to be dealt with, and if this is a pattern, maybe she has special needs. Maybe she needs a one on one, I'm not an advocate of drugs(riddilin) however you spell it but obviously there is a behavioral problem.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 154
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
|
Some cross-posting here, but I am reading over some of these posts and have some understanding about (my interpretations of) some of the frustrations of some posters.
Regarding "personal responsibility"--I am in no way saying that this girl should not have been held accountable for her actions. But that is part of the job of adults--to help children develop their sense of responsibility. And like math or any other abilities, children's skills in this area are not the same as adults'--and as such our expectations should be scaled as child expectations.
Many of the strategies I talked about in my previous post are part of a system of helping children develop these skills. It's an incremental process, and little successful steps along the way must be documented and awarded. Mis-steps along the way are cause for re-evaluation--a process that should include school and other professionals (teachers, principals, school nurse, social workers, pschologist) and also, ideally, the parent.
It also must be noted that some children and some adults can have "personality conflicts"--Just like some adults can have such difficulties with other adults.
During the brief time that I taught there were children who I just did not "click" with. Something about them just grated with me, or something about me just grated with them--or bot. In these situations, it was important for me to acknowledge this, take steps to work on it, and if unsuccessful to seek a "change in venue" for this child to give him/her a chance to be successful with another teacher. Sometimes I was successful in figuring out why I hit such a block wall with this particular child, and changing things. Sometimes I was not.
But under no circumstances did I ever construe the responsibility for correcting the personality conflict to lie with the child. I was the prfoessional; It was my responsibility.
And as far as the parents' responsibility--Yes, of course. I see that as a huge thing, and I think we could all probably guess what is going on with this particular parent. (Not that we'd be 100% correct, but we'd likely be close.) Again, though: PUBLIC schools. The inadequacy of parents, families, and communities makes schools' jobs MUCH more difficult. But, does that mean that now we are willing to let part of the plan be to bring in police in situations like this?
If so, if you all are saying: Yeah, things are so bad, we should not be concerned when teachers call the police and police handcuff children and haul them away--Then so be it. That is the state of our values today. But make no mistake: It is a values choice on our part to allow such a response in the context of, admmittedly, bad larger social situations. We could have other values that mandate other responses.
I know I do. |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
|
Chrishayden: What is wrong with Black people these days? Why is there even any discussion of this?
Babygirl: Chris, I empathize with your frustration and don't doubt that the majority of us are just as outraged and disheartened that we are now at a point in our society wherein a 5 year old child would summarily be handcuffed and hauled away by the police. I'm sure that the right parental figure could have easily set that child straight by just snatching a knot in her little behind but unfortunately the discipline that was needed was not an option.
I would venture to say that what may be wrong with people and why we're discussing this isn't about what the police have done because ultimately it wasn't anything that wasn't unexpected. They haven't done anything new that hasn't been done to us and our ancestors for generations. The discussion comes from trying to understand how we as a body with our many successes are now allowing our children and youth to erode those accomplishments by engaging in behavior that isn't in the least bit tolerable. Our children have become more violent, at earlier ages, and I think subsequently the degrees of punishment have now become as degraded as well, as adults and parents try to figure out what the hell we should be doing. Pointing a finger at the cops and bellowing about how they wronged us is well fine and good, but there is no way we should even contemplate not addressing the behavior and conduct that put them there in the first place.
Chris: Who here would allow their child to be treated in this manner no matter what they had done?
Babygirl: I don't think there is one of who would ALLOW our child to be treated thusly but the fact remains we can't always control how they will be treated any more than we can control how we will be treated. But we are also responsible for insuring our children know that their actions and behavior have consequences that may well be out of their control. Too many have become apathetic about what our kids are doing and that apathy is only going to insure that we see more and more of our children being treated so appallingly.
When I was growing up, my father regularly preached to my brother that he was more at risk of being randomly harassed by the police simply because he was a black male. He also gave my brother and me detailed instructions on what we should and should NOT do in those situations to insure that 1) we had legal recourse should we have been violated illegally and 2) to hopefully protect and preserve us from bodily harm. This didn't mean we had to lie down and take it without speaking out, but it insured that in the end we were smarter and better than whomever thought they could do us harm.
Chris: All I need to know is what SHOULD NOT have been done--seen one of our children treated like a monkey. That's what they did. Treated her just like a monkey. I was thinking, "Look how they're dealing with the monkey".
Babygirl: Clearly, this child has some problems that none of us can even begin to know or speculate about. But would it be too much to speculate that had she NOT been acting like an "animal" then perhaps she would not have been treated as such and you would not have even reasoned to think "look how they're dealing with the monkey"? |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 155
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Jackie: now working in Lynwood, CA I've seen some swinging
LOL! Yeah, I had a kid once knock me in the head with a wooden building block. I LITERALLY saw stars! But by the end of that school year that child was one of the most well behaved kids you ever did see, his mother gave me a long heartfelt card expressing her appreciation for everything I did for him, and he gave me the biggest bear hug on the last day of school.
Then I had a kid who'd repeatedly call me a "nigger." Us two, too, were bestest friends by school year's end: She even had her mother going around to several department and toy stores because she said she wanted "A brown Cabbage Patch doll, like Miss Perry"! LOL! |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 156
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
|
PS-I never called the cops on either of these kids. |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 38
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
|
YvetteP, I commend you, honey. I LOVE children but I don't LIKE very many of them. It takes an exceptional giving and loving spirit to teach. Years ago I volunteered at a Boys/Girls club afterschool program. I had a six-year old threaten to stab me with a pair of safety scissors because she didn't want to clean up a mess she made. With my third, exceptionally polite request for her to PLEASE put her stuff away that little heifer jabbed those scissors into my thigh. A few stitches later and my career in childcare ended. The little heifer is now doing 25 to life with a rap sheet longer than my arm and she hasn't reached her 30th birthday yet. At the time when she stabbed me, her behavior was dismissd because she was only a "baby" and didn't know any better. I can't help but wonder now if handcuffs then might have sent her in a different direction. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 211
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
|
Jackie---
I was referring to the incident where the 7 yr. old shot and killed a 5 yr. old.
There were NO TEACHERS/CLASSROOM involved.
The POLICE arrived and handcuffed the 7 yr. old child---which I am in agreement with, because of the severity of the matter.
If a 265 pound Police Officer was to HOLD DOWN a fighting screaming 7 yr. old who just shot and killed someone---it might result in broken bones, bruises. Better to handcuff.
Children may not have the strength to break arms and legs....but they CAN grab knives or even use their nimble, quick hands to gauge out eyeballs or use their teeth to bite.
I bit a man's ear damn near off when I was a kid---so I know how fast children can move and what damage they can inflict.
_________________
JACKIE
I have made it clear that I felt the POLICE treatment of this little girl was totally WRONG and INEXCUSABLE.
I have also pointed out that this child obviously needs more love, more attention and swift discipline from her MOTHER.
Still.....even children should be expected to have some form of "PEOPLE SKILLS".
Next up---my mother taught me, as a child, that if you feel yourself becoming filled up inside with rage, anger and violent thoughts.....and your teacher is not listening or understanding you and you are about POP----then quickly stand up and run out of the class and come home (but only if you have a teacher who is not responding to your attempts to pull her to the side and explain what your problem is). Then Let MAMA handle it.
Honestly, Jackie---I was ALWAYS the teacher's darling, because I couldn't speak English and had a lot of private education, but I NEVER EVER would act like that in class. I also have to say that "Black Schoolteachers" were No-nonsense but they were EXCELLENT when given good students with good questions and good listening skills. Parents who constantly TALK to their child, discuss, quiz and kid around with their child---produce good students, capable of listening and asking questions with a desire for information. Some parents prepare their children for the outside world---others have no expectations of their kids and just throw them here and there. Either way, we've lost the "Village".
And I bet if this was 1972 or 1975...I don't care what EMOTIONAL problems, etc. that child had....Ja'Meltdown would not be acting like that either.
This shit has 2005 HipHop/Columbine Generation written all over it.
WHITE KIDS ARE EVEN WORSE!!!!!
I've seen them young as 5 years old get on the cell phone IN CLASS and start cursing at their parents, saying, "Mother, I'm not listening to her shit, today!"
"Mom, it's Jenny Rebecca...this bitch won't let me have recess because I didn't want to recite my alphabets."
One little white boy asked my son, "Who are you going to listen to---me or the teacher?"
________
I tell my sons:
"The purpose of education is to prepare you....HOW....to teach yourself. If you don't pay attention and learn how to learn....then you will never have any peace of mind in this world. Your mission is to find out everything the teacher knows."
And the truth is, Jackie, seriously....that a 7 and 5 year old really can COMPREHEND just as much as an 18 year old.
I would not advocate loading them with all that information---but kids can process incredibly vast amounts of information if people respect and engage them.
|
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
|
Yvettep...damn a wooden block ??
I've been called a bald headed bitch by a 3rd grader named Tony. Tony ended up helping me with the class...he was a little wanna be gang member. I in turn gave him responsibilities and made him a leader in a productive way. My money and keys have been stolen from my purse, car stolen...nothing has hit me in the head though...I was too fast and ducked LOL !
I've never been called a "nigger" because the district I work in is predominantly Latino 1st, 2nd Blacks, and some Asians. Now I did have one Latino student called the only black girl in the class a nigger once. This is 3rd grade again. I waited until school was out, kept this Latino kid after school, and I broke it down to him, I said "don't you know whites in California used to have signs on their restaurant doors that read NO DOGS, NO MEXICANS ALLOWED and our former governor Pete Wilson was the one who ooined the term Operation WETBACK ?? He was in tears after I got through with him then I sent him home. I was trying to keep a straight face and not laugh. He and this black girl never had any problems after that. I was a long term sub in this class. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 212
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
|
RUSTANG----
Again, I feel the POLICE were totally wrong, their behavior was INEXCUSABLE. They should have been "layed off" for a while---because Adults make mistakes, too, and because of the "racial dynamics"---I can see how white teachers/white cops would be afraid to put their hands on a black child or even SAY ANYTHING VERBALLY.
___________
My point about the MOTHER is this.
If she's so quick to make a "special financial DEAL" with a trashy t.v. exploitation show like "A CURRENT AFFAIR".......and then fired her lawyer for no other reason than he unknowingly gave other t.v. programs video (a video that she had to SIGN A RELEASE for in the first place, mind you)......then all of that shows why her daughter is in a classroom violently attacking adults and refusing to cooperate.
Her mother's priorities and her mother's Quality Time With Child are obviously lacking.
I also despise a "dummy".
If you're BLACK and you're going to file a LAWSUIT and try to milk money out of the School System and the POLICE.....then at least be smart enough to present yourself as a Person of Integrity, a "Sincere" complainer.
Whether the State/Police were wrong or right---this mother has now set herself up as a "money-hungry materialistic" BLACK WOMAN who isn't raising her daughter.
I KNOW THIS IS NOT TRUE ABOUT THE MOTHER, RUSTANG....I know how it is....but the MOTHER should be smarter if she's going to take on big fish and play the VICTIM. She should PLAY IT like an Angela Bassett scene.
At this early time---if it was me----I wouldn't take a DIME from the media. I would be too busy setting up my case. And with that VIDEO---she would have had an unbeatable case. But no, she goes for Quick Pocket Change from a trashy t.v. show.
|
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2197
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 01:19 pm: |
|
There is no magic formua that will work for a 5-year-old throwing a tantrum. Maybe what schools need are isolation cubicles with padded walls where children who lapse into this type of behavior can be put all by themselves until they cool off. Children are not angels. Just watch them interact with each other, and see how mean and selfish and belligerent they can be. And once they get the upper hand with adults, it's very difficult to re-establish control. When children have no home-training and bring all of their impudence into the classroom, then the teacher is helpless because she can't discipline such kids without getting into trouble. It's a no-win situation. |
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 01:27 pm: |
|
You're right there is no magic formula. I agree that children are not angels either. In fact, when I have a class, and all the work is done, I let them have free time and I do watch their interaction. I observe the alpha males, the passives, the feminists, the bullies etc. But fortunately I don't believe it's a no-win situation I'm more proactive and optimistic than that. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1110
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 02:20 pm: |
|
Jackie:
If they're black just whip their wooly heads with a nightstick. From what I've been hearing you'll probably get an Image Award from the NAACP |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 215
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 02:30 pm: |
|
LLLLOOOOOOLLLLLL
OMYGOD
Chris that is so funny.
and true
|
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 125
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 05:22 pm: |
|
Yvettep wrote:
Thus, I am wondering: What was the "math lesson" in this case for a classroom of 5 year olds?
From what I’ve read, they were involved in a lesson involving jelly beans. I am sure they weren't asked to solve a Calculus problem as part of their "math lesson."
Yvettep wrote:
I know of no good professional teacher who would follow some general "procedure" in a manual, expecting that it would be adequate to meet the needs of unique, individual children--and the younger the child, often the more inadequate the general guidelines.
I can’t speak to the guidelines, of their training, or procedures, either general or specific, but if you re-read the first article, it states the newspaper talked with several top educators, and all praised the vice principal actions, in trying to diffuse the situation. You disagree, that's fine.
Yvettep wrote:
Third red flag: Isolating this girl in this particular location was totally inappropriate. If the staff knew of her behavior, then they also should know that this office was one of the least appropriate places to put her. Think about it: glass, tables to jump off of, scissors/staplers/pens on the desk...
One wall of the office was made of glass, so should the school only have walls made of sheetrock? C’mon now. And, she jumped atop a chair and a table, so I guess school offices shouldn’t have tables and chairs. I just don’t understand why it’s beyond reason to expect a child to sit down in a chair when asked repeatedly by their teacher.
I am from the old school. Parents didn’t clear off their tables with items or even their entire home of things -- children were expected to not touch or bother when told not to do so. You had to learn, you can’t go around putting your hands on everything. Some things are dangerous. Some things aren’t toys. I bet you all don’t have a stove in your homes because you know a child could be burned.  You can’t possible clear a classroom, an office, a school, a home or a store of things that an angry child could possibly destroy or injure themselves with because they decide they want to throw a tantrum.
Yvettep wrote:
Fourth red flag: Really, I cannot imagine what procedure for effective intervention these folks were following. Liberalind probably knows much better than I do, but what I saw on that tape is NOT how you intervene with anyone who is in a state of being so out of control with their anger. In fact, the response was guaranteed to provoke further anger.
LibraLind suggested she was putting on a show since she saw the camera. So maybe she wasn't angry at all. Just play acting. Preparing for her upcoming acting debut.
Yvettep wrote:
This girl is 5. She was unarmed. I don't know about any "magic ages," but any school that cannot handle unarmed 5 year olds is a school that is not doing its job.
Maybe but it’s ironic that the same folks who say this about the teachers and police officers don’t want to also say her parents aren’t doing their job either. Any parent who can't handle their 5 year old certainly isn't doing their job either.
Yvettep wrote:
It's easier to keep calling Mom to come pick up a child that you decide cannot be handled than to apply your professional training to attend to the situation.
This incident occurred last month, and the child has been in this school for 7 months now, do you really believe that this was the first incident involving this child, and the school just threw up their hands, and called the Mother to come and get her child?
Yvettep wrote:
I'm through trying to convince folks that we should care about what was done to one of our children.
You certainly don't have to convince me to care about what’s done to one or all of 'our' children. I just don’t think letting them behave, in any manner they so desire, wherever and whenever, is the answer to show how much I care. Years ago, folk disciplined their own children, so others didn’t have to do it, because they did care. Also, years ago parents taught their children there are consequences to your actions – don’t let mouth write a check your a** can’t cash. |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 126
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 05:28 pm: |
|
Yvettep wrote:
It also must be noted that some children and some adults can have "personality conflicts"--Just like some adults can have such difficulties with other adults.
I don't doubt this. As in all my years in school, I did have personality conflicts, with some teachers or flat out didn't like a few others, for various reasons, but I didn't act in such a manner. But, then one has to also learn that won't always like everyone they meet, whether it's in a classroom, on the playground, or on a job. Doesn't mean you can't work together harmiously, because you don't personally care for a person. This about learning deal with things and people for the rest of your life regardless of your personal feelings towards them. And, not bullying people into doing what you want to them to do or making them allow you do as you please though you are not the one in charge.
Yvettep wrote:
And as far as the parents' responsibility--Yes, of course. I see that as a huge thing, and I think we could all probably guess what is going on with this particular parent. (Not that we'd be 100% correct, but we'd likely be close.) Again, though: PUBLIC schools. The inadequacy of parents, families, and communities makes schools' jobs MUCH more difficult. But, does that mean that now we are willing to let part of the plan be to bring in police in situations like this?
If the parents have been warned several times, that the school has been having difficulties with their unruly child, and the child can't be placed in another school or another classroom, and continues to disrupt the classroom, then if they think this is their last option, then yes. Maybe finally they got the message -- this behavior will not be tolerated.
I believe that not only should the teacher, the school adminstrators and the police officers have done things differently, but every player in this saga, should have -- including the child and her parents. They are just as a big part of this, as any of the others, who have been called to tasked, for the things they should not have been done. |
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 05:34 pm: |
|
Chris I don't get it ? Was I supposed to laugh ? |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 127
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 05:38 pm: |
|
Babygirl wrote:
I would venture to say that what may be wrong with people and why we're discussing this isn't about what the police have done because ultimately it wasn't anything that wasn't unexpected. They haven't done anything new that hasn't been done to us and our ancestors for generations.
Ironically, the police warned this parent (and the child), about having to handcuff her child. I guess, she didn't take them seriously. Wonder why didn't she bark about the threat of such an action then instead of waiting until after it occurred to cry foul? As she is making her TV rounds now she, couldn't she have done the same before, this incident? Be proactive rather than reactive.
Babygirl wrote:
Pointing a finger at the cops and bellowing about how they wronged us is well fine and good, but there is no way we should even contemplate not addressing the behavior and conduct that put them there in the first place.
Thank you.
Babygirl wrote:
I don't think there is one of who would ALLOW our child to be treated thusly but the fact remains we can't always control how they will be treated any more than we can control how we will be treated. But we are also responsible for insuring our children know that their actions and behavior have consequences that may well be out of their control. Too many have become apathetic about what our kids are doing and that apathy is only going to insure that we see more and more of our children being treated so appallingly.
But, of course, I wouldn't *want* my child to be handcuffed, regardless of their age, but if they are doing as this child had done in school, I'd been warned it's going to happen, if problems and conflicts continues, and I am called to come get my child, since she's out of control, and can't/won't come to remove her from the premises, then why should I expect some thing differently to happen?
|
Libralind2
Veteran Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 51
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 07:14 pm: |
|
What is so amazing to me are the comments that compare "your" childhood or actions to those of this 5 yr old. The 5 yr old in question clearly has issues whether she did it because the tape was rolling or not. THAT point we are all clear on. If they had my grandchildren handcuffed like that child I would be pulling out a can of whoop azz and it would have been a different story.
JMHO when I said the kids I work with did all those things to the room, they did it/do it when no one was/is in the room. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 159
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 07:21 pm: |
|
Like I said: Values. DIfferent strokes for different folks, I guess. Me, any cop ever cuff my kids I'm gonna use Liberalind2's can of whoop-azz if I didn't happen to be carrying my own.
I wonder why, in schools where kids act up far worse than this, police do not need to be called? Hmmm. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 160
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 08:19 pm: |
|
A Black conservative's perspective on this case:
http://lashawnbarber.com/archives/2005/04/26/childish/
(Also see vigorous discussion in comments section) |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 216
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 08:50 pm: |
|
LOL Yvette!!!!!!
Is she coming out of her shell or what!!??????
Let me get in here and make her some spicy GUMBO so she can replace all that fire, honey.
__________________
I LOVE...absolutely LOOOOOVE to see Black Women un-pinning their emotions, letting loose and REGAINING their voice.
Nothing hurts my heart more...than the blank "dead" invisibility that afflicts so many Black Black Women today.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 162
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:02 pm: |
|
No gumbo, thanks, unless it's with chicken or sausage instead of shrimp! Oh, I do a little too much "coming out of my shell" in my off-line life and even to some extent on my blog! So, here I aim for a little more calm and restraint... |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 163
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:09 pm: |
|
Jackie: Deep, deep story. Wow. What a great person to have as a "sub."
Babygirl: So much for the "safety" in safety scissors, huh! Wow.
(However, seeing as in general "scared straight" type programs don't work, I don't know that having this child handcuffed would have put her on a better path...) |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 402
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:30 pm: |
|
Hello All,
When its all said and done, that little girl needed her ass whupped. And from what I now know about her mother's actions before, during, and after this incident; she needs her ass whupped too! Point blank!
Now you all can make up excuses, blame the police and the teachers, from now to when times gets better; but it doesn't change the fact that children are to be raised and not had! We've let all this pyscho babble, politically correct, "don't nobody touch my child", and my all time favorite "my child wouldn't lie to me" mentality go unchecked for far too long. All this adds up to is that parents have allowed all this crap as an excuse for them to be lazy, that's right I said it, LAZY parents!
It's not up to the school to raise your children. Nobody has to take any crap from a half raised child! And frankly, why would any parent want their child in the same classroom with that little girl? I wouldn't! Because if that girl had harmed my child, I would have made a B line toward her triflin mammy!
This type of stuff did not happen back in my day, not without some serious repurcussions! But according to all these high faultin folks, modern thinking educators, the old way of bringing up a child is too barbaric, "not fair to the child", yada, yada, yada. The old way was the way because it worked...thats why it was around for soooo long. But now, its lets blame everything else under the sun as justification for me not paying enough attention to my child and for me not being concerned enough to insure that I raise a production citizen in the community, mainly because I'M LAZY and SELFISH!
Yeah, I said it, SELFISH! When will people of today get IT! When you have children, the life you HAD is OVER!! Its over, gone, fini!! Your life is no longer yours, its your child. You as a parent don't have a LIFE, and you won't have it anytime soon! When the baby stops breastfeeding, you can not go "hey, now its all about me". When the baby starts walking, talking, attending pre-school, graduates from the third grade, finishes high school, gets a job after college, your life is his or hers, not yours. This means that your first priority is not some man who you just luuuvs and cant do without! The first priority is not some club, or you just needing a place to exhale. Damn all that. When that school called that girl's mama, somebody should have been up to that school THEN! And the mama should have told the teacher when she called that the teacher could snatch a knot in her tail, and when the mama got their, she was going to snatch one herself. That's how that should have played out. Now, instead, what that videotape showed for all the world to see is the making of a bully! That little girl is going to be a holy terror for any kid that crosses her path the wrong way, because that girl now know that she can get away with anything without facing ANY consequences. I tell you all what, those who thinks that little girl isn't a monster in the making, let your kids play with her and see what happens.
Now this is not a racial, socio-economic problem. Our whole society is sick with it and its getting sicker. Having unruly, ill-mannered children has become such a normalcy in our society that there are even primetime TV shows devoted to it! Nanny 911 or Supernanny are shows for the WHITE ill manner kids and the parents that don't know have a clue as to how to raise them. So no, Chris, there are no white children being taken away in hand cuffs (that you know of), but some of them are showing up on TV, check your local TV listings.
What hasn't been said is that this little girl is not alone. Until a year ago, I had no idea to just how BAD some of these kids are. There are children from kindergarten on up who have been kicked out of school because of disciplinary behavior, so much so they have to go to Day Adult School. Its a cottage industry! That little girl aint even the tip of the iceberg. We have a SERIOUS problem here people and putting your head in the sand, or hiding it behind a stupid child psychology book, aint going to solve the problem. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 165
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 10:56 pm: |
|
Different strokes...different values...different folks...
Whatever else is or is not going on, some of us have decided that we will accept as part of our value system an education system that we support with our tax dollars that deploys armed police officers to diffuse situations that school personnel are unable to. Further, we apparently are OK that this response will be more likely in systems in which a majority of the kids look like us, while kids in suburban schools with similar behaviors get psychiatric, medical and other care...
Oh well. Our tax dollars support the police, too. Why not put them to work in taking unruly kids out of schools.
Our tax dollars also support the military. How about deploying National Guard officers to our schools? They'd be better armed. And more of them, at least, would be Black...
Different strokes...different values...different folks...
|
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 403
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:15 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Yvette: I am not picking up none of what you are putting down. Its more than just race. And your reluctance in seeing that, or accepting that, is a larger part of the problem. Shunning responsibility OR THE TRUTH will not make this problem go away. It's getting worse. Now tell me where do all these bad ass kids go, after they have grown up? *eyebrow raised* Will they live with YOU? Hmmm. No, I didn't think so. The rest of us have to interact with them as well when we go to the mall, go out to eat, ride the bus to work, etc. They may be children, but they are also a part of our society. Frankly, you not being able to recognize this, or acknowledge it, is another large part of the problem. And if you are not a part of the solution, you damn well are a part of the problem. |
Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 39
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:47 pm: |
|
You have a community of under-paid, under-appreciated, over-worked teachers who are expected to do their jobs, plus be mommy, daddy, minister, shrink, physician, mediator, counselor and everything else as well. A percentage of this community do it because they believe in what they can accomplish and the others because it's a job. Like the children they teach some are really good and others are really bad.
Yvette, I'm curious, from your perspective as a former educator, in those cases wherein there is a situation that is potentially detrimental to one student or a host of students and the teacher is either UNABLE, or incompetant or just plain disinterested in diffusing the situation, what other options do you feel should / might / could be available to them? Because clearly for as many teachers such as yourself who can get through to problem students, there are probably many more who can't, who won't, and who could care less.
And as Thumper noted (and I loved how he said it), if we don't address the issue of children just being out of control because no one has given a damn about them from the minute they were conceived, how then can we even begin to address what methods should be used to deal with them and what methods shouldn't?
And this is not to say that handcuffing a five year old was right, because it wasn't. And I don't doubt that the passion you exude for your position is based on you having dealt with classrooms of children one on one over an extended period of time, wherein others such as myself, may have only had the experience of raising our own or dealing with other folks kids as infrequently as possible. (Cause like you said, them safety scissors were anything but safety!)
|
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:28 am: |
|
I'd get some other kids in the classroom to beat'em up. Just Kidding....Anyhow ,those teachers who "can't" "won't" and "who could care less" will have a big price to pay if anything should happen to that particular kid or the classmates. You have no choice. You either do something or watch the problem escalate into something injurious or fatal and then you'll either get suspended, fired, or sued.
Thumper nobody said that child wasn't out of control...but what she was doing could have been handled without POLICE !! POLICE are for criminals! FELONS ! RAPISTS ! ROBBERS! KILLERS ! not some snotty nosed, whiny, pig-tailed girl swinging at the air, and tearing papers off the walls. I know some principals who would put that girl straight with one look ! Gimme a break !
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
|
Thumper, they will continue to go where they are going now: on a direct path through the foster care system, juvenile detention centers, and prisons. I don't see how yelling that they need to be more responsible will make them just up and take that responsibility. And you can believe what you want to, but there is very definitely a two-tiered system when it comes to our policy responses to "bad-ass kids," one largely based on race.
I see what the other things are, too, in addition to race. I see that and have talked about it on these boards. And I understand the frustration you and others have voiced.
There was another situation recently, of some young Black boys raping a developmentally delayed classmate. The administration, apparently, tried to talk her/her parents out of calling the police. Now THAT was a case where police SHOULD have been called and hauled these boys off, handcuffs and all.
But I am asking here, over and over, if we really want an education system where this case that is the focus of this board is an appropriate case for police intervention.
You are in Indianapolis, right? I lived in Indianapolis for six years. Do you really trust the police there in the city to intervene fairly and impartially in situations involving young children acting up in schools? As under-funded as teacher training is, do you think that police officers are given better training to deal with children?
Babygirl, I am a sinner myself when it comes to practicing what I preach in this area. I was extremely dedicated, and took it very personally how any child fared in my classroom. After a few short years it was very clear to me that, given the current constraints and circumstances I would either have to (a) become hardened and care less, (b) burn out, or (c) get out of teaching young children.
I chose (c).
This pained a lot of people--including myself. But it is the choice I made.
I have no doubt, Thumper, that I am part of the problem. I am passionate about the ideal of American public schooling, yet my children attend a "private" school within a public school (a magnet). Again, I got out of teaching instead of sticking it out. I choose a dissertation topic that is "racially neutral" because it is politically and academically the easier way to go at this point... Your harsh words are well received: If every Black person believed as I do, then we'd be a sorry bunch of naive do-gooders who are all talk but little action.
But if we were all of the "lock em up and throw away the key" extreme (NOT saying that anyone here necessarily holds this view) we'd be in a sorry state too.
So, I'm glad there is a diversity of views on this topic, and which is why I have tried to link externally to some of this diversity of perspectives. For several days we on this board have talked about this case. To me that's hopeful--Regardless of our views, it would have been a lot easier to have shriugged our shoulders and said, "Oh well, so what?" |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2199
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:36 am: |
|
And here in Chicago, just as they thought it was safe to go back outside, black kids are once again killing and injuring each other over gym shoes. Recently, one 17-year-old boy was lured to a place under the pretext of meeting a girl and when he got there he was shot down and left there to die, with his new Jordan's missing from his feet. This is just one of the many end results of a problem that originates with unruly kids who have no respect for authority or life. |
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 12:46 am: |
|
Oh boo hoo everybody's scared of the big bad FIVE year old ! Will the real child advocates stand up ! Cynique you're talking oranges and apples here. Girl you scare me. You sound like you don't have hope for anything.God forbid that you're voted governor or president. I think it's safe to say that the girl needs discipline/therapy/structure/medication(for those of you who believe in it) a medical examination. She didn't kill a rabbit or pull the feathers off a bird. She whined, ran around in circles, pulled papers off the wall and weakly swung at so called teachers and an assistant principal. She needs structure and discipline and possibly a doctor especially if this is a continous pattern. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2200
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 01:11 am: |
|
And the 5-year old didn't go to jail, so what's your beef, Jackie? Her momma's gonna capitalize off the situation while people like you are standing around wringing your empty hands. When you've been around as long as I have and have listened to the the same ol arguments and rationalizations then you do kinda get cynical. And surely you aren't under the impression that a governor or a president is going to make things better after all of this time. But just keep wearing your rose-colored glasses and find a way to blur the fact that bad kids grow up into bad adults and the black commumity is full of bad, neglected kids. Yeah, I know, so is the white community, but worrying about white kids doesn't solve the black problem. And there is a problem and it begins with 5 year old kids. Or hadn't you noticed? BTW, this discussion did branch out which is why I added oranges to the fruit bowl. |
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 01:21 am: |
|
Well fortunately, I know plenty of 70 + year olds that aren't as cynical as you are. They're vibrant with life, activists, optimistic, and hopeful. And dear, I won't be wringing my hands...i think her mother should be handcuffed. Yeah I'll keep my rose colored glasses on in this matrix and choose to see the world as I want. So our only option is to be negative, cynical, dark, lonely, unhappy, isolated, indifferent ? Naw sista I can't go out that way. Not good for the psyche, not good for the health. You can, be my guest. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2201
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 01:32 am: |
|
No, your objective is to keep your perspective. You are the self-appointed child advocate, and I am the self-appointed devil's advocate. I look forward to seeing your hopes reach fruition. And cynicism ain't never harmed my health. How you think I got to reach the hearty age of 71? Maybe it's cuz I am not lonely or unhappy or isolated. I am indifferent to presumptuous people like you, tho. |
Jackie
Newbie Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 01:41 am: |
|
Being cynical is not equivalent to being a devil's advocate. Cynicism is useless and un productive and stagnant. You are just as presumptous, you assumed that I'd be wringing my hands because of this child's mother. Anyhow, I'm moving forward. Have a good night ! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2202
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 01:51 am: |
|
Do you by any chance know a_woman? You sound just like her. LOL As long as I retain my ability to see humor in everything, I ain't worried, babe. My cynicism is like a coat that I take off and put on. You should see me with my new grandbaby. |
Anunaki3600
Newbie Poster
Username: Anunaki3600
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 05:07 am: |
|
I used to be a sub math teacher in Los Angeles and by choice I selected the school district which was considered the most dangerous because students from poor neighbourhoods came to these schools. After some experience in teaching, I came to the conclusion that poor diet, lack of sleep, watching too much T.V, too much sugar, i.e ding-dongs, twinkys, candy, etc played a major role in making these kids into hyperactive little brats with very little attention span and they could not sit at their desks for a complete class period. Even though the kids I taught were at junior high level, they acted like the 5 year old. If these kids can't get the right medical attention required (expensive solution), best put them on ratlin during school time to calm them down (easy solution). I just gave up being a sub and went to grad school. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2367
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 07:49 am: |
|
All,
I have seen part of the tape. I know it’s got ‘juicy’ bits of racism, police brutality, teacher incompetence, reckless child endangerment, etc. strewn all over it.
But can we all – especially us parents – admit that part of us think that had the teacher firmly tapped that girl on her behind a few times before the girl got too worked up, this whole ‘national scandal’ might have been averted?
Of course, had the teacher administered corporal punishment she likely would have been arrested/fired and she and the school district would have been charged with child abuse/racism and sued for million$.
Cynique may have something. Maybe an immediate, short-term the solution to what happened with the 5-yr-old is for every school to be fitted with 2 – 3 small, harmless, monitored ‘rubber rooms’, if you will. So when a child refuses to behave, he/she can be put there until either he/she run out of steam and agrees to cooperate or their parents/guardian come to get them.
I find it to be quite telling is there being NO reference of the child’s father. Even in the posts here, I think only Jhmo has specifically mentioned the possibility of ‘his’ intervening (assuming anyone might know who/where he is).
Thumper,
Ditto! And ENCORE!
I appreciate everyone's empathy for whatever problems the child may be suffering. But schools are designed to help educate children. They don’t have the time/resources/responsibility to RAISE them. And if parents – mothers & fathers – shirk their responsibility, a cop/prosecutor/prison will eventually make up their slack. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 08:54 am: |
|
Well, like I said, you all must be very happy with our current situation in this country. All over Black parents' parental rights are being terminated and their bad ass kids are being put into foster homes until they can graduate to prison.
Why don't you propose that this happen even earlier, so that these inner city schools can go back to being the magical places for the good education of children? Why not propose, as some have, mandatory sterilizations for poor Black men and women (which would be a return to eugenics policy begun in this country and copied by Hitler--anyone hear of "Mississippi apendectomies"?), and locking up any children who are born from these folks in places that would look a little like day care centers but would actually be prisons for babes?
Oh, and spanking. You're right, ABM and others--by all means. Let's have teachers go back to the paddle--It worked back in the day, why not now. Of course, the Geneva Convention mandates that prisoners of war cannot be beaten--but I am sure we could get a significant number of people to look the other way if we are talking about bad ass kids.
By all means: let a cop "take up the slack" from our education system. When should a cop intervene in a school? Why, of course when a child disrupts a math lesson. When should a cop draw his or her gun in the school? Fire his or her gun? Well, no matter--I'm sure we all trust these school personnel and police departments to make these decisions.
I'll leave my rantings at that. Go ahead and pick it apart, ridicule, etc all you want. Thank goodness all of us are the Good Blacks who know how to raise our kids. Let's get tough on those Others who refuse to do their job.
Later, folks. Good for you to have the keen insight and strong stomach to place the blame where it needs to be placed. You all must be right--like I said, current policy is on your side.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 08:58 am: |
|
Geneva Convention:
...Article 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention...
Yeah...too bad these bad ass kids aren't captured Taliban...
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2371
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:00 am: |
|
And to really piss off the ‘bleeding heart’ types amongst us:
I LOVE my daughters. And my children have – thankyah JESUS! – never behave as this little girl did. But lemme tellyah, if they did, being handcuffed might NOT have been the most traumatic thing to have happened to them. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2372
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:01 am: |
|
...'course, the fact that I'm in the picture is probably the biggest reason why they wouldn't DARE carry on like that to begin with. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2373
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:18 am: |
|
Yvettep,
We appreciate your passion and empathy. I think, though, we all are just a bit overwhelmed about what to do about what appears to be an untenable situation within our.
I agree what the school/cops did was wrong and there should be some type reckoning of their behavior.
But what's ironic about what happened here and what you decry is that had this event occurred +30 years ago - as terrible as we think this is - it could have been A LOT worse for a little Black girl who refuses to obey White teachers...and cops. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2374
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:21 am: |
|
Correction: I meant "...an untenable situation within our 'communities'." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2375
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:32 am: |
|
Cynique,
The sad paradox of programs like DCFS is they often appear more motivated to perpetuate themselves rather than to fulfill their (presumably) altruistic missions.
In the last 30 years, the Black prison population has grown +5X. So too have the social services programs. So I can’t help wondering whether programs like DCFS are in part a RESULT of the problem...or partly the CAUSE of it. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:52 am: |
|
Oh, and ANOTHER thing:
I also think we should consider instituting some form of MANDATORY ‘debutante’ system to breed some sense of etiquette/decorum amongst our young women (for CHRIST SAKE!). Because if I witness one more buttcrack-revealing 15 year old girl’s scream obscenities into a cell phone, I swear I’m going to right then/there take off my belt and whip her @$$. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2378
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 09:55 am: |
|
Yvettep,
Any clause in the Geneva Convention that prohibits my doing that? |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 128
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
|
Libralind2 wrote:
What is so amazing to me are the comments that compare "your" childhood or actions to those of this 5 yr old.
And, I am equally amazed, that you are amazed, since everyone, in this discussion, including yourself, have related personal experiences, both past and present, in discussing this case. What else do we have to drawn upon to try to make sense of this?
Libralind2 wrote:
If they had my grandchildren handcuffed like that child I would be pulling out a can of whoop azz and it would have been a different story.
Yep, you would have been handcuffed *and* arrested. Though hopefully not shot on the spot. |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 129
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:09 am: |
|
Of course, Abm, you love your daughters, which is why they wouldn't dare carry on like that. No parent should allow their child behave like that. You got parents who won't parent, or who can't parent, but you then you can't tell them that. Though we see the results of their labor.
I really do believe that school tried to work, with that Mother regarding her daughter, and felt the last resort was to call in the police, to assist in this situation. Obviously, they had been called before, perhaps to 'scare' them (some folk you need to scare -- it's enough to set them straight), and to get the Mother (and daughter) to realize the severity of the problem, of this child's behavior. If you are doing this much misbehaving in class, spending time in the principal's office and having your Mother to come and take you home away from the school, during the day, then you're not learning. Somehow some have forgotten this aspect of this situation.
The school was trying to educate this child, along with her classmates, but she was making the job nearly impossible or, at the least, much harder than necessary. While her Mother has been on these TV shows, she should have be making sure her daughter have a smooth adjustment and transfer to another school. Just imagine transferring this late, in the school year. School, in most places, ends next month. What a way to start one's academic career.
But folk are so focused on what the school and the police should or should not have done but are conveniently forgetting, the child had been misbehaving for a while, and the Mother didn't appear to be trying to help the situation. Yelling on TV shows about how wrong other folk were, and your child is barely passing kindergarten shows where your priorities really lie. Okay, so they were all wrong, you get your settlement check or win a lawsuit, but did your child meet the standards to get promoted to go the first grade?
Ironically, she couldn't take off work, an hour or so early, last month, to go and get her daughter, but now she can take time off, to appear on all the TV shows and give interviews.
I'll admit the first thing that came to mind watching those videos -- this child needs butt whooping.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
|
I said I was done, but let me share a couple more perspectives for you all.
This is what happens when five year-old negresses are placed in alienating school environments instead of the cotton fields and kitchens more suited to their temperaments.
I blame the U.S Supreme Court!
Pastor Tobin maker
**
That large woman who was allowing the brat to destroy the office should have been arrested as well. For stupidity.
I would have merely grabbed that little picininny and twisted her arm behind her until she cried "uncle."
I don't know what they cuffed her for though. If I were one of the officers, I would have snatched her up by her corn rows and walked her out on her tip toes.
Capability Jones
**
Jesus H. Christ! If the lawyer released that video in order to generate sympathy for the kid, then he fscked up. That kid is a pain in the ass. If I was the principal - first of all I wouldn't be that fat or that southern - but if I was the principal, I'd call the cops, too. That kid is a pain in the ass.
Jeff
**
This is not a laughing matter. Can you not see the Devil at work here? Demon posession is never a laughing matter. Jeb Bush should issue a Holy Decree that the Florida Dept. of Families and Children and all Florida Law Encorcement agencies, including the Florida National Guard, should begin recruiting scores of exorcists to fight this frightening increase of "librul demon posession" among the very young and old alike.
sjs
**
If that young girl ain't Preternatural Glandular Ambient Specific then I don't know what.
Yeah, I said it.
+++
MJS
**
General sir,
Pope Panzerkampfwagon XVI wouldn't put up with such deranged insolence in his Catholic schools. That little madam is a product of the satan's secular system, why a simple 12 inch ruler on the palm of her hands delivered by a Salesian brother would sort the problem out. JEB is really letting the team down with such liberal ways. First Shiavo then letting this girl survive her brush with the Lawalmighty.
faithfully,
Rt Hon. McAdder Esq CBE
**
Surely. there must be SOME final solution to the uppity negro question!
Oh, if ONLY we had elected Strom Thurmond President when we had the chance.
Chris Tucker
**
General Sir,
Taser, HELL! Cops shouda shot the unruly bugger beeyotch! It's never too early for kapital punishment. (afterbirth o'course, cuz killing the unborn and the undead is is too Lucifer-ous fer us). It would be a conservative blessing to unburden the Black Robed Judges of this extra darky burden to be.
Wit respekt,
A Reeder
You can read more here: http://www.haloscan.com/comments/patriotboy/111423425100007865, plus much, much more around the Web along the same lines.
Later.
|
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 171
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:23 am: |
|
The funny thing about the comments I posted above is the blogger means the posts to be political satire, but many of the commenters take it seriously!
Wow. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2383
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:24 am: |
|
Jhmo,
You (Thumper and others, I think) touch on something that I profoundly I have ZERO tolerance for: An unruly child who prevents a teacher from teaching other (especially BLACK) children.
I simpathize with this little girl. I really, Really...REALLY do.
But there are indeed times when, to quote Star Trek's Dr. Spock, "The needs of many outweigh those of the few."
Question 1: All the while the teacher had to grapple with this unruly child, what were her OTHER children learning?
Question 2: How much will those children be allowed to learn during all the hubbub over this incident with angry parents, community groups, cops, reporters and attorneys crawling all over the place?
Question 3: How much of a share of whatever lawsuit/settlement money the child/mother will (inevitably) receive will the OTHER children receive?
Question 4: And has ANYONE in a position of authority/responsibility thought or care about Questions 1 - 3 as they rationalize what's best for all concerned here?
I love all kids. I consider them all a gift from GOD. But I won't abide any of them - including my very own - thwarting a teacher from instructing other students.
Black children, in particular, can't afford that. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2384
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:28 am: |
|
Jmho,
And great point on noting the irony of how the mother couldn't take off from work to retrieve her unruly child YET manages to find all kinds of float time for interviews, press conferences, etc.
Any wonder why this kid misbehaves? |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 217
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
|
One response to the various calls for this child needing her butt whooped/butt whooping as a solution:
Is it assumed that she hasn't been whooped? Ever? Enough?
Were all the folks in prison today (or others who have gone astray) not whooped? Enough?
Are those of us who are law-abiding and productive members of society this way simply because we were whooped, or for other more complex reasons?
I realize this is an off-the-cuff solution in the midst of the discussion, but it is certainly short-sighted. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2387
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
|
Mah,
You're right. We are probably ASSuming our tails off.
I think was being expressed is regret that an effective method of rearing/protecting children is not being adequately utilized by many within our communities.
And I do believe that, all other things being equal, there is an inverse relationship between a parents willingness to carefully, yet sternly apply corporal punishment and unruly childhood behavior. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 491
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 09:46 am: |
|
I will begin with this, I do not believe that any 5 year-old child should be handcuffed, nor do I believe in the police being called to an incident such as this.
Regardless of race, culture, or faith backround, the issue of children becoming increasingly disobedient to adults/elders/authority figures is an epidemic that is poisoning America! I have witnessed the offspring of the poor, middle class and filthy rich behaving in such "unruly" ways. A father can be completley absent, or present but passive. Both situations can leave a child fatherless, and with a mother who isn't equipped to (soley) handle the tremendous responsibility of child rearing. A family unit destroyed, destroys the entire culture. What we are collectively seeing/getting is what we are collectively giving.
If a child is born healthy, they have a genetic predisposition for mental, emotional and physical well-being. If a parent fails to protect, train and love a child who is predispositioned for health, which I feel is the case in many of the youth today, then this, unfortunately, is the result (what went down in FL).
I feel in a majority of cases that involve "unruly" children, parents are to blame.
From the projects to posh pentahouses--and everything in between, parents should not have the audacity to set such high expectations of how others should treat their children when they, by their overt, parental laziness, allow society and "the system" to raise this bastard generation.
|
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2207
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
|
Heeey Moonie. Where ya been? You make a good point. Bad unruly children do come in all colors and from all classes. Sometimes inept parents are to blame for their bratty children, sometimes negligent parents are to blame, and sometimes a child's core personality is what makes him the way he is. And the latter is why is it should also be noted that not all bad kids grow up to be bad adults; they often grow up to be smart, productive, creative people. The very temperamental nature which makes them unable to adapt to a classroom situation can also be what contributes to them turning out to be dynamic, free-spirited, innovative adults. But the bottom line is that a stable homelife and sensitive parenting never hurt any child. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 492
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:13 pm: |
|
Hey Cynique! I pass by here every now and then. When I do, I still enjoy the intellectual discussions, as well as the book recommendations. Though I next-to-never comment anymore, I will "cast my vote" for your thought-provoking posts. You still have me laughing (and reflecting) when I read your responses--your life story thread is great! I didn't know you are as "seasoned" as you are. You are truly a woman who has experienced so much and can still smile and laugh--what a good thing!!!!
In regards to this child-rearing stuff, you also made some really good points. You are correct, "a stable homelife and sensitive parenting never hurt any child." This concept is so simple!!!!
|
Anunaki3600
Newbie Poster
Username: Anunaki3600
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 03:09 am: |
|
Has anyone considered the issue I raised earlier about the 5 year old girl-child may have very poor diet, too much sugar, lack of sleep, too much t.v that make her act up in class???? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 493
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 06:56 am: |
|
Anunaki,
With consideration that this little girl does not have any health problems that she was born with, your point is so incredibly relevant!!!! I believe that American children are the most overfed, malnourished group of children in the world. On one hand, we have the middle class and rich pacifiying their children with "treats", yet another form of laziness, and then the poor don't have access to healthy, organic, nutrient-dense food. On all sides, it is a shame!!!! In a world that has plenty, all people should have access to healthy food/water sources. As I was watching this little girl, I was thinking this very thing about her. A huge part of my thinking blames her mother, but there is that part of me that knows that this child proably does not have access to the quality foods that her mind and body need in order to function properly. That is where the government is at fault. No meat needs to be injected with hormones and antibiotics. There are healthier ways to spray fruit and vegetable crops so they aren't toxic to the human body. Junk food should not be so cheap and readily available. And, Americans, especially Americans, need to slow down and make adjustments in family life. I absolutely support your theory, and the sleep/t.v. issue is also an epidemic that is contributing to American children being over-stimulated. I will stop here because I could truly rant about this.
However, on a positive note, in this months issue of 'Organic Style', there is an article dedicated to 10 women whose career revolves around caring for children and the earth. One of the women, Johari Cole, is an Organic Farmer from Pembroke, Illinois. Her farm is 45 acres and it provides fresh, organic produce to the inner city, as well as many of Chicago's finest restaurants. She and her husband are raising two children on the farm. She says that sustainable farming is "just the right thing to do."
I applaud women and men who not only understand the value of all people having high-quality, nutrient-dense food, but women and men who truly take the steps in making that a reality for all people. Check out the article--she is physically, an amazingly beautiful women! Her children are blessed to have her as their mother!!!!
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2413
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 07:01 am: |
|
Anunaki3600,
I suspect most of us have. Perhaps we don't, however, thinks that merits her behavior.
Even if that were true, would she's be the ONLY (Black) student who attends school while enduring such? No.
And if most of them carrying on as she did, many schools with poor, underclass children would be wholly inoperable. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:41 am: |
|
HI! ABM!!! WHERE YA BEEN. I'S BACK YALL! HA! |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 222
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
|
Hi A_Womon.
Great to see you again.
It's been too long.
|
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
|
Hi Kola, Yeah, I can see WAAAAAAAAAY too long! I got a lotta catchin up to do! There's a lotta new posts to read! |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 130
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 09:35 pm: |
|
Anunaki3600 wrote:
Has anyone considered the issue I raised earlier about the 5 year old girl-child may have very poor diet, too much sugar, lack of sleep, too much t.v that make her act up in class????
I do think that one's diet and lifestyle (which includes sleep, rest, excercise, etc.) plays a part in one's health and well being but last week on TV show the 20/20, in the segment, about food myths and lies, it was stated it's a myth that sugar makes children hyperactive. In fact, one expert said the opposite occurs.
But, then once again, especially at her age, her parents should be responsible for such (diet, TV viewing, etc.)
I would also think these things (poor diet, lack of sleep, etc.) would drain or lower one's energy level. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2429
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
|
A_womon,
Howdy!
Where you been?
Glad to see you're still amongst the living!
I thought you and...(JEEZ...what's that fella with the Japanese moniker?)...had run-off together. |
a_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: a_womon
Post Number: 1262
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 02:47 pm: |
|
hey ABM!
no didn't run off with no one, just been busy tryin to build up my literary resume, by writing and producing some things locally and writing. So I have been limiting the amount of time I spend in chat rooms trying to get my name out there ,you know?
Where were you for soooooooloooooooooooong??? |
heavensquill
Newbie Poster
Username: heavensquill
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:46 am: |
|
Hello, ALL;
This has been an interesting discussion. My 2 cents...much of the trouble began w/Dr. Spock and his "Be a friend to your child" pooh;then the government decided to add to the equation with the child abuse laws (which did more to incapacitate parents who were not guilty). American children are advised of their "RIGHTS" as toddlers, which gives them the mind-set that NOBODY can MAKE ME DO anything!! As parental authority has erroded immeasurably, the jails are over-run with people being punished by the STATES-whose authority goes UN-DIMINISHED.The "Laws" have, again, set us up to fail...and who receives the harshest penalty for infractions? The inmate numbers speak for themselves!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2507
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 10:37 pm: |
|
A_womon,
Work that thang, Chitty Bang-Bang.
But when you hit it big and win that Pulitzer and Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay, don't forgive all us little people you met along the way to literary Valhalla.
Heavensquill,
I agree. Giving individual rights to children separate from their parents has caused incalculable detriment to ALL families, especially Black ones, which have always struggled to survive on general-principle.
It's almost as if all the socio-psycho babble quackery out there is expressly intent upon criminalizing and, then, destroying our children.
PS: And where are all these know-it-all MOFO's when my kids school tuition bill comes due? |
Heavensquill
Newbie Poster
Username: Heavensquill
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:33 am: |
|
ABM;
They're waitin' to arrest yo' a$$, if the check bounces!!
I have a teenaged daughter, with whom I've had several discussions regarding her RIGHTS. I've made it clear that in this house, the "laws" are for her benefit, and administered out of love for her; but the very people that encourage her to flex her juvenile muscles, are often the same ones to slap on the handcuffs and take away all her rights...along with her human dignity. Our children must learn to be careful of those they allow to inform their choices.
"Smiling faces, smiling faces, tell lies"
- The O-jays-
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2522
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:41 am: |
|
Heavensquill,
You're dayam RIGHT they will. That's why all those SOB's need to let me handle mine, and I'll return the favor to them.
There should be a especially painful place in Hell reserved for those who come between parents and children. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1263
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 03:56 pm: |
|
Thank you ABM! Hey MR TYLER PERRY!!! Just wanted to give you a shout out! HOLLLLLLAAAAAAAAA!!! Your movie was all that and so are YOU! And if you ever looking for new material, Mr PERRY Sir! I think I got something that you just might LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE!!! holla back!!! HA! (no for real, if you read this, I'd love to send you a sample of my work) |
Pastormaker
First Time Poster
Username: Pastormaker
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 05:31 am: |
|
Yvettep,
You are possibly the dumbest asshat I've come across on the Web.
We posters at the satirical website www.patriotboy.blogspot.com like to continue the general's agenda into the responses to his posts.
It's not your fault you lack a sense of irony or satire . I blame the college professors who never opened a can of whup-ass on you when you fell asleep during every class but Outrage 101. |
|
Email This Page