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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 01:30 pm: | 
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In her book, "Intercourse," she (in)famously declared all penetration/intercourse (even consensual) an act of rape. From what I've read over the years, she was indeed a tortured soul.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/12/arts/12dworkin.html |
Asherah
First Time Poster
Username: Asherah
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 02:27 pm: |
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That's funny.
Yesterday I was chatting with a guy who mentioned Andrea Dworkin and it was the first time I ever heard her name. Now I see you mentioning her here again saying the same thing about her. I guess synchronicity has led me to this lady to get to know her work..
He told me about this declaration of hers, and according to him she would have said that all intercourse in a PATRIARCHAL(our) society is an act of rape.
He considered this statement to be somewhat extreme but I can see what she means by it.
Since a man holds a higher status in a patriarchal society than a woman, and where the Feminine is not valued and respected as much as the Masculine, a man can't possibly (unless he truly is an exception) make love to a woman if he doesn't view her as his equal. That's why it becomes an act of violence, as there can't be any REAL love when one places himself higher than the other. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 174
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 03:25 pm: |
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I think Andrea Dworkin was a really interesting woman and I admire her courage and outspokenness, especially her will to DO SOMETHING, which so very few women possess.
As I was just pointing out to Cynique on the other thread---there are ALL TYPES of "feminists", and I believe, that the vast majority of women in America, especially black women, are indeed Feminists even if they don't call themselves by that word.
I think Feminism is SO,SO necessary for women, but unfortunately, just as Harriett Tubman had trouble convincing slaves that they were "Slaves"---it's often difficult to get women to see that they are responsible for leaving a better world behind for their daughters and for standing up and creating a legacy that will ultimately benefit not just their daughters, but their sons as well.
The first FEMINIST MOVEMENT that I know of...was 3,000 years ago in the Sudanic Nile Valley, when Black Women had to fight for the right NOT TO BE BURIED ALIVE with their dead husbands, which was a supremely African practice.
Mahogany, "We've come a long way, baby."
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 175
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 03:41 pm: |
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RAPE:
Just the fact that Dworkin later married a "MAN" and lived with him, presumably having sexual intercourse, is very telling.
We often say things in our crusades for justice and truth....that LATER ON, we change our minds about or refine. Whenever someone steps forward to be a LEADER---we shouldn't expect them to be right about "everything". You have to allow for some personal sentiments, their own background. We have to take what is VALUABLE from their message and leave what doesn't work for us, I think.
In some 3rd world nations, I think that Dworkin's assertion about RAPE would be very true. Especially in North Africa WHEN I LIVED THERE. So many women had met their husbands during rape, and especially BLACK women in North Africa are constantly exploited, intimidated and forced to YIELD...sometimes for crumbs of bread to feed their children.
But in 2005 America, I don't think it's true that the society is still so PATRIARCHAL that all relations between men and women is rape---and one thing I don't like for some feminists to do is not acknowledge my own SEXUAL POWER and DESIRE as a "female" and the fact that I am not solely a defenseless object waiting to be inflicted upon...I can also enjoy chasing DICK and riding those dicks, maybe two in one night,if I want to.
And that's a woman's right too.
My favorite feminists, the ones who inspired me in youth, were Alice Walker, Gloria Steinem, Nawal el Sadaawi and Susan Sontag.
But then PAM GRIER, GRACE JONES and MADONNA were feminist images,too, and greatly inspired me.
I never really heard about Dworkin.
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Asherah
Newbie Poster
Username: Asherah
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 05:07 pm: |
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I just read a verification from Dworkin on her site http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/LieDetect.html about that statement 'all sex is rape', which she actually never said, but her explanation confirms my initial thought. I could not explain it that well in words, but she says it like how I think about it:
Andrea Dworkin believes that all intercourse is rape.
FALSE. She has never said this. She sets the record straight in a 1995 interview with British novelist Michael Moorcock. And in a new preface to the tenth-anniversary edition of Intercourse (1997), Andrea explains why she believes this book continues to be misread:
[I]f one's sexual experience has always and without exception been based on dominance--not only overt acts but also metaphysical and ontological assumptions--how can one read this book? The end of male dominance would mean--in the understanding of such a man--the end of sex. If one has eroticized a differential in power that allows for force as a natural and inevitable part of intercourse, how could one understand that this book does not say that all men are rapists or that all intercourse is rape? Equality in the realm of sex is an antisexual idea if sex requires domination in order to register as sensation. As sad as I am to say it, the limits of the old Adam--and the material power he still has, especially in publishing and media--have set limits on the public discourse (by both men and women) about this book [pages ix-x].
Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?
Andrea Dworkin:" No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.
The whole issue of intercourse as this culture's penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the "all sex is rape" slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don't think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.
It's important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the "all sex is rape" slander repeatedly over the years, and it's been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work." |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 177
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 05:34 pm: |
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That's very sad and I especially relate, Asherah, because I am continually lied on (or my words switched around) as well.
One thing I can say with PURE LOVE on Andrea's behalf....
is that in order to stand up and take on these social pathologies and Patriarchal modes...you HAVE TO BE a little bit crazy.
The sad thing is people will take that little bit of crazy and make propaganda to make it appear that you're not making sense. THIS is happening to me---a black male journalist at BLACK ISSUES and another black male journalist in DETROIT have both focused on the fact that I was in psychiatric care as a child and teenager. They throw this out to immediately DISMISS idea or observation I make. And this is how they discredit women....mainly by other women allowing them do this and not investigating and finding about (or appreciating) those women like ANDREA who really put their lives on the line trying to make a better life for all of us.
I agree with much of Andrea said and I've posted a kind of "farewell" thread to her in the KOOL ROOM.
"Women" themselves hate you the most when you FOCUS on women's issues, exclusively.
This is a problem I always run into when engaging black women---most of them are cowards and if you talk about "black women's needs" too long, they try to switch back to "The Black Man and racism"----as if black men give a shit what black women go through "racially".
It's "HeartBreaking".
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2164
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 05:54 pm: |
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Lesbians are very keen on the subject of "penetration." Was Andrea Dworkin gay? My opinion is that until a woman can be "promiscuous" without feeling guilty and emotionally-damaged, and until she can be liberated from the notion of sex as something she gets, instead of something she gives, then she is not a true feminist. She cares what society thinks and her brain is wired to associate sex with love. Feminism is a superficial concept adopted by thwarted females who probably still cry if they can't get their way. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 178
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 06:05 pm: |
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THIS PART HERE:
Lesbians are very keen on the subject of "penetration." Was Andrea Dworkin gay? My opinion is that until a woman can be "promiscuous" without feeling guilty and emotionally-damaged, and until she can be liberated from the notion of sex as something she gets, instead of something she gives, then she is not a true feminist. She cares what society thinks and her brain is wired to associate sex with love.
_____________________________
AMEN CYNIQUE!!!!!!
Cynique---you just saved me! Can I please steal this quote and use it in my new book??? Of course I'll re-word it, but the second sentence has to be EXACT.
THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY!!!!!!!
This whole damned "morality" thing that so many feminists IMPOSE On being "equal" just doesn't wash with me either.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2165
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 06:30 pm: |
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OK. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 07:01 pm: |
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Cynique:
Lesbians are very keen on the subject of "penetration." Was Andrea Dworkin gay? My opinion is that until a woman can be "promiscuous" without feeling guilty and emotionally-damaged, and until she can be liberated from the notion of sex as something she gets, instead of something she gives, then she is not a true feminist. She cares what society thinks and her brain is wired to associate sex with love. Feminism is a superficial concept adopted by thwarted females who probably still cry if they can't get their way.
Mah: Reportedly, both she and her husband were/are gay. And over the years, it's been claimed that she was into some heavy S&M stuff--but no penetration. All which is her business, of course. The account of the alleged rape in Paris is what especially made me consider her a tortured soul. In expressing her outrage about the "assault," she resorted to the language of "I wasn't asking for it, so why?" and "I'm not the type of women who would be raped" (as if there were such a thing). This is the kind of stuff that polite obits and homages do not include.
"Feminism" certainly could have used and does have better poster children than Andrea Dworkin. A name that is bandied about in these reports on Andrea Dworkin is Catherine Mackinnon. During my undergrad years at Yale, I had the privilege of hearing her anti-porn position when she was a guest lecturer in my "Blacks and the Law" class taught by future-CT Supreme Justice, Fleming Norcott. Judge Norcott was an intimidating but fair and brilliant black man, and his class was the best I took in my entire 4 years. His own interest in the anti-porn crusade led him to invite Mackinnon into the class.
Two things about that class I will always remember: 1) Mackinnon's lecture (agree or disagree with her, and I did a bit of both, I appreciated the fact that she wasn't shrill in her presentation; she was substance over style) and 2) the fact that on the final exam, in addition to all the case law we had to know, we were expected to quote passages from the "Rime of the Ancient Mariner." What does that have to do with Blacks and the Law? Nothing, but it was Judge Norcott's favorite poem, and we had been warned. ;-)
I also took women's studies courses, including one with Micaela DiLeonardo (I think that's her last name). Prof. DiLeonardo's claim to fame on campus was being married to a former Black Panther, Adolph Reed (she was white).I learned a lot in that class about feminism and women's history. And in all of my studies, and my personal and professional experiences related to gender and race, my biggest takeaways have been to never let anyone spoon feed me their agendas and definitions, and that our hero(ines) and poster children always have feet of clay.
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 171
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 07:13 pm: |
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Cynique: ...until she can be liberated from the notion of sex as something she gets, instead of something she gives, then she is not a true feminist.
Mah: Cynique, do you mean the other way around: that a true feminist is liberated from the notion of sex as something she gives?
It troubles me when women treat sex like it's a favor they are doing for someone, like men are consumers and we are just goods, and not consumers ourselves. I prefer to think of it as a barter system, a mutual exchange of goods and services, so to speak. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2166
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:22 pm: |
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MAH, this does get a little confusing. When I wrote that liberated women should think of sex as something they get, not something they are giving, what I had in mind was this being a case of "I got me some!" as opposed to "I gave him some..." When you're providing your body for a man, it is usually in exchange for something in return, and then it gets into the area of "prostituting" yourself rather than indulging your own pleasure. Of course sex is the ultimate power struggle between men and women, when, ideally, it should be a matter of mutual desire and pleasure. Anyway, when it comes to feminism, I just shoot off my mouth. I've never thought feminism was that relevant to black women. It was about white women's desire to be taken off of a pedestal and treated as an equal, a problem poor ol sistas never really had. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 172
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:40 pm: |
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Cynique: I've never thought feminism was that relevant to black women. It was about white women's desire to be taken off of a pedestal and treated as an equal, a problem poor ol sistas never really had.
Mah: *applauding* I couldn't get past the first few pages of Betty Friedan's "The Feminine Mystique." The "right" to work? Black women have ALWAYS worked. How about the right to sit down for a minute! And the fact is, much of our work has been in service to white women. Many of them have been able to enjoy the privilege of working (or not) because we have been taking care of their children and cleaning their homes.
What resonated with me re: feminism were issues related to gender discrimination, empowerment vis a vis sexuality, and issues of violence against women. But even those issues have racial implications, of course.
The "Central Park jogger" case came about during my freshman year in college. That was my first experience of the never-ending tug of war, of "divided loyalities," between gender and race. Female victim, black male suspects. WHITE female victim, black male suspects, against the historical backdrop of Emmett Till and countless other black men being lynched for sullying a white woman's "virtue."
And as the daughter of a rape survivor, things were even hairier for me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2169
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 12:22 am: |
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Yeah, feminism can evoke mixed emotions for women in general and black women in particular. And it sometimes becomes a case of being careful what you wish for because you might get it - like ending up over there in combat in Iraq. And rape really is a hairy issue especially because the burden of proof is always on the woman, and because some women make it hard for others when they claim rape in order to blur their own indiscretions. Whatcha gonna do. |
Destined
Newbie Poster
Username: Destined
Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 01:24 am: |
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Cynique: I've never thought feminism was that relevant to black women. It was about white women's desire to be taken off of a pedestal and treated as an equal, a problem poor ol sistas never really had.
Destined: I agree whole heartedly. In fact, I believe my feminism to be quite the opposite of my Caucasian counterpart. I have made a decision to stay home and care for my children. I homeschool my youngest and within the African American community, this is still taboo.
I feel that the school system was created for the industrial age. I have observed and followed other sisters who have stepped out and challenged the system. I've watch them nurture very intelligent and creative children into college as well as other careers. Those women are feminists in my eyesight.
Rape in marriage.... We cannot ignore that many of our young women still enter the marital contract with fear of sex. As African Americans, there are still so many real rapes that occur within the familial structure. It is that idea of sex that we receive at a very young age that catapults our young girls into volatile relationships with insecure men, black, white or otherwise.
I only pray that I can guide my daughters into a 'healthy' sex life with their mates of choice. How to do that, the jury is still out. We talk to them often and pray even more. I have worked with rape victims since college, therefore, I'm less inclined to confuse Dworkin’s idea of Rape in marriage with those that occur in alleys, cars and on dates gone badly.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 181
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 01:47 am: |
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Cynique:
I've never thought feminism was that relevant to black women. It was about white women's desire to be taken off of a pedestal and treated as an equal, a problem poor ol sistas never really had.
__________
KOLA:
The first FEMINIST MOVEMENT that I know of...was 3,000 years ago in the Sudanic Nile Valley, when "BLACK WOMEN" had to fight for the right NOT TO BE BURIED ALIVE with their dead husbands, which was a supremely African practice.
Great Mother...."BLACK WOMEN"....have been leading FEMINIST movements Off and On for thousands of years.
The current one, relevant to 100 million African women, is the movement to stop Female Genital Mutilation.....and there's a separate movement among "BLACK WOMEN" to do away with Polygamy.
I guess it's because I'm an African "BLACK WOMAN".....but there's no way you can convince me that Black Men and their Cultures aren't Historically and Continuously MORE SEXIST than any White Men's cultures.
I wholeheartedly believe that.
What I HAVE NOTICED in America...is that just like in Africa...."Black Women" are more Male-Identified (sharing black men's suttle hatred of women), whereas White Women, because they have been given a "beauty status" in the world, which translates to a very REAL although warped "Power" in the world, are more Female-identified.
Black women often enjoy "power" vicariously through black men...rather than demand and wield it for themselves.
ALSO....
Sojourner Truth, it could be argued, was one of the chief founders of the AMERICAN SUFFRAGISTS MOVEMENT....Francis Ellen Harper Watkins was another DEFINITE feminist.
Ida B. Wells
Harriett Tubman
Mary Bethune McCloud
All these women were ARDENT feminists and on close inspection of their lives, you find out that they had to navigate the "race issue" and take "abuse" from BLACK MEN while still trying to carve a niche for their daughters and other women.
Just because black women weren't on pedestals and worked side by side with THEIR MEN....doesn't mean they didn't have to fight TWICE AS HARD as White Women against FEMINISM.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 182
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 01:52 am: |
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More "recent" Black Feminists (or as we call ourselves, Womanists):
Nina Simone
Angela Davis
Shirley Chisolm
Alice Walker
Audre Lorde
Pam Grier
Tracy Chapman
Euzhan Palcy
Winnie Mandela
Lauryn Hill
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 183
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 01:55 am: |
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How eerie, Destined.
I'm a stay at home mom, as well.
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Destined
Newbie Poster
Username: Destined
Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 09:52 am: |
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Liberating!!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2170
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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Your concept of feminism seems to embody the idea of women eliminating abuse and gaining recognition, Kola. To me that's about human rights. I always think of feminism as women thinking they can do anything men can do. But, - what do I know? |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 185
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 01:48 pm: |
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Hi Cynique,
I totally understand what you mean.
I personally DO NOT think I can do everything a man can do....nor would I want to.
I definitely see us as different creatures with different roles and I think we should be EQUAL...but different.
One reason that I think Feminism has been "misrepresented" is because so many of the people defining it are "LESBIAN", and they have merged gay rights with their opposition to patriarchy----and also----men have USED LESBIANS to create the illusion that being "feminist" means being a "Man-hater" or a "Lesbian".
Those women like you and I who are simply competent, capable, feminine and have a sense of humor---and are not lesbian---are not usually the ones who are asked to define what being a "feminist" is and to me---therein lies the problem. Your posts have always carried a Rosalind Russell, Carole Lombard quality---so that in itself is proof that the word has been "bastardized" in order to keep us from the actual practice of it.
I also agree with DESTINED about "feminism" including the act of staying home to rear ones offspring. I totally agree! I have often asked White Feminists----"What kind of creature that gives birth, doesn't know how to prepare a meal to feed their baby?"
I think a lot of extremists have twisted feminism and I have always considered your opinions, posts and point of view Cynique to be SURPRISINGLY in line with what most African and Black American women I KNOW would think of as feminist perspective.
As black women--I think we see men more as "comrades" and we DO NOT hate men or want to be separate from them, we just don't want to take any b.s.
When women do "band together as a group" to eliminate abuse and gain recognition----I see that as feminism.
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Asherah
Newbie Poster
Username: Asherah
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2005
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 03:40 pm: |
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Just like to point out that not all White Feminists' ideas have to be generalized.
Like Nigella Lawson(British TV cook, also been called the 'Kitchen Temptress')says it's understandable that the Feminists of the First Wave angered themselves more on the stay-at-home-moms, as women used to be restricted to the domestic sphere only. At that time, they couldn't associate it with anything positive because they were just starting to claim their freedom onto themselves. The escape was too recent, they could always be pulled back in.
Tori Amos,for instance, also 'complained' about the First Wave Feminists, that they would have 'killed' the Mother in us..
So you see, not all White Feminists share the same opinion about everything, but being Feminists they do share the same basic conviction of women and men deserving equal rights in the real world.
Therefore I don't think it's wise either when women ridicule Feminism and turn their back to it, just because Feminism is sometimes associated with certain issues they might not agree with, but that does not take off to the fact that Feminism remains the view that women and men are inherently equal to each other and deserve equal rights and opportunities.
Why turn it into a word-game when feminism has already been defined. Those who say not to be Feminist are actually saying that they don't believe that women and men deserve the same rights, but if they do believe that, then I consider them Feminist even if they say they're not. But when you do the latter, you're spreading unnecessary confusion for those who don't know yet what feminism is and you might be unwillingly cooperating with sexist men who enjoy spreading these lies and defining Feminism as Lesbianism(don't know if this is the right term) and Male-Hatred, like Kola says.
Feminism should be a source of (re)union amongst women, not something that divides them and set them up against each other,that's what sexist men always try to do.
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Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 186
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 03:49 pm: |
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So true, ASHERAH.
I was basically saying what you said.
And I actually really love and appreciate Andrea Dworkin. I think she was more right than wrong, and I think she was extraordinarily brave.
My point earlier was that some feminists are "activists".....some feminists are rock stars.....and some feminists are librarians.
We need to broaden the definition--which is that WOMEN are Equal Human Beings, are entitled to acknowledge their Oppression through Patriarchy and fight against it and that women should be expected to engage the same pursuit of happiness and level of pleasure in life that Men are encouraged to pursue and expect.
Glad to SEEEEE you, girlfriend.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2336
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 03:59 pm: |
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Ladies,
I think MOST women would be startlingly surprised to discover that being a man ain't all that it would appear to be cracked up to be. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2172
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 18, 2005 - 08:24 pm: |
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Especially men who get busted by their wives for cyber flirting in a public forum. ROTFLOL. |
Asherah
Newbie Poster
Username: Asherah
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 19, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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LOL Cynique!
Kola: My point earlier was that some feminists are "activists".....some feminists are rock stars.....and some feminists are librarians.
Asherah: Yes, that's true. Only I get irritated by that Spice Girls type of "Girl-Power", where women reduce their power to their sexual power only. If they knew they were a lot more than that, they would know that the continuously objectifying of themselves is making them weaker than anything else.
I saw Madonna once on TV where a few fans could ask her a question. One girl asked Madonna if she considered herself to be a Feminist. And guess what, Madonna immediately responded "No, I am a Humanist." As if being a Feminist is not about being a Humanist and as if there's something wrong with being a feminist. I knew that when she was asked this question, in a flash her brain associated feminism with Men-Hatred, which it is not, of course. That's why I think Madonna is a coward and on top even stupid.
Cynique: Of course sex is the ultimate power struggle between men and women, when, ideally, it should be a matter of mutual desire and pleasure.
Asherah: well isn't that what Andrea was saying in the first place? It's a patriarchial idea to see sex as a power struggle where one of the other has to be dominant.
I think for a woman to think 'I'm gonna get me some'when it comes to sex is just something that many feel they don't have the freedom to say in this society, not necessarily because they are brainwashed by some patriarchal religion that suggests they don't have the right to enjoy sex, but when men in general view women as some object they have to conquer, then they are placing themselves in a dominant position, forcing the woman in a more submissive role and if she doesn't want to submit, then it's kind of difficult to win that power struggle when you are the one being fucked. That's why I think it's actually a woman's nature to only get sexually aroused (or to get aroused the most) when a man really wants her, but at the same time holds himself in (to a certain degree) out of respect for her and to show her he's adapting more to HER rhythm. This way they also get more in harmony with each other instead of the man jumping on her and getting his pleasure before she even has the time to get aroused, because for me it's just a turn off if he does it like that. A lot of women also say they had the best sexual time when they were still virgins, because it was one big foreplay, not that fucking isn't pleasant,but for many women it just goes to fast into that phase of sex, once they're no longer virgin.
Also it can be fun for a woman, when she wants a particular man who is so disciplined he doesn't give in to sex so easily like most men who run after their dicks only, so she can feel like SHE has to 'conquer' him.
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West_africa
Newbie Poster
Username: West_africa
Post Number: 24
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 02:17 pm: |
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Andrea Dworkin "married" a homosexual (not bi-sexual) male and their arrangement was, in fact, a matter of convenience: a contractual, mutually non-imposing communal living space arrangement with a person she knew well enough to not feel threatened by, and who (for whatever reason) she could generally trust.
They were more like sorority sisters than a married couple (where the sorority was the institution of marriage, and each of them joined for the benefits).
True marriage...? Not really, but there were legal advantages.
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West_africa
Regular Poster
Username: West_africa
Post Number: 32
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 04:04 pm: |
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John Stoltenberg
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
John Stoltenberg is the managing editor of "AARP The Magazine", a position to which he was named on March 17, 2004. He is well known as a feminist activist and author. He holds degrees in divinity and fine arts.
He was Andrea Dworkin's life partner who described him, in reference to the fact that they were both homosexual, as a "nongenital man."
He was a founder of the group "Men Against Pornography" in New York City. He created "the Pose Workshop" for men attending Christian retreats, a version of which was later conducted and broadcast on BBC television by Dugald McCullough.
Stoltenberg is attributed with the quote "Pornography tells lies about women. But pornography tells the truth about men."
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