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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 89
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 02:50 pm: | 
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I wrote here (http://blog.lib.umn.edu/archives/perry032/impossible/sun_fun_and_frog_chi.html) about an experience I had recently while on vacation. The experience concerned some extremely (in my view) misbehaving children.
I want to do a follow-up to that piece where I address the issue of the declining discipline of children, and was curious about the thoughts of those of you here.
I am not so much concerned with the behavior of children from low income, working class, or lower-middle class backgrounds. What concerns me is the behavior of the children from families of relative "means." This is because, as my husband and I strive to do better for our own kids than we ourselves had, we find that in the process they are exposed to behavior not in keeping with our own values.
Is this trade-off inevitable: In order to enjoy higher quality education (right now they are at a public magnet school, but we haven't totally ruled out private for the future), nice vacations to places we may not have gotten the chance to visit as children, and so on--they must also be exposed to children who talk back to their parents, are rude to other kids and adults, and in general have the attitude that economic "privilege" equals the right to be "bad"?
To what extent do we, as parents, have control over how other folks discipline their children? How we "discipline" other folks' kids in their parents' absence, ineptitude, or apathy?
Am I just over-reacting, and kids really aren't any more misbehaving than they ever were? Perhaps this is just healthy assertiveness?
What do you all think? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2293
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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Yvette,
I'm glad you mentioned this. Because the issue you cite is largely why I took exception to Bill Cosby's tirade against the "lower class" Black foks. The truth is many of us uppity, bourgeois foks are misbehaving too!
You're right. Kids from what are suppose to be "good families" are behaving has horribly as their poorer peers. And considering that they are not being exposed to the conditions that cause poorer children to misbehaver, I consider these kids of "means" to be WORST.
Like you, my wife/I feel we must CONSTANTLY reinforce issues of etiquette and social responsibility to our children. And we do this NOT because our children willfully flout our teachings, but because our children are CONSTANLY being deluged by the behavior of ill-mannered children. And A LOT of that stuff can seep down in their subscious without their hardly realizing it.
And my kids are in PRIVATE school! (for Christ Sake!)
I don't think there's much you can do about 'raising' someone else's children. Rather, just vigilantly reinforce to your own what you require and explain WHY/HOW they'll benefit from observing certain social graces.
And when there are examples how they've benefited from good behavior, be sure to applaud it. |
Kola_boof
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 95
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 09, 2005 - 04:48 pm: |
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Yvette ALWAAAYS comes up with brilliant, classy posts--stuff you can use in your real life.
She's one of my favorite posters.
This was excellent and very rarely talked about.
BRAVO
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Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
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I will correct ANY ONE'S children..ANYWHERE, ANY TIME ANYPLACE. Its MY right as an ADULT. Good GRIEF. I dont understand it. |
Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 28
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
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I forgot to add. They straighten up 99.9% of the time. LOL |
Rustang
Newbie Poster
Username: Rustang
Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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I can only speak from my own experience on this one.When my daughter was a small child,she was,of course,exposed to a wide variety of kids in her age group.Some behaved poorly,others behaved well,and most of them fell into that spectrum somewhere closer to the middle.She was always well-behaved.At first because she understood that nothing else would be acceptable to her parents,and that there were consequences to be suffered if she came up short.Self discipline was established in her like that.We also took the time to explain to her what the drawbacks were to running around acting crazy.In short,we raised here to act like she had some sense and that has served her well ever since.There are a gazillion bad influences that a child will be exposed to in school and it is not possible to insulate the kid from them.However,a child that starts every day with the unquestioned assumption that they are loved and that home is to be considered a haven will not fall prey to these influences.A kid will make a lot of decisions growing up.Some good ones and some not so good ones.I figured that my job was to love her,let her make those decisions and be there to help her pick up the pieces when she made a bad one.And now she is like an oasis of sanity in a world that seems to have gone mad,so it must have worked out ok. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2101
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 05:18 pm: |
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The problem is that some parents have a blind spot where their children are concerned. They don't see their children as others see them. I happened to be watching this Nanny reality show on TV where people having discipline problems with their children are visited by this real-life English Nanny who after observing their family life for a week, offers her advice. Well, on this particular episode, when the nanny told the parents that they were at fault for their kids being obnoxious brats, the parents got indignant and turned on her and rejected her advice. Children really want parameters to be set and that's why parents should establish rules and be consistent in enforcing them. Of course this is all hind sight. My children raised me. Motherhood has never been my strong suit and they were smart enough to humor me and except my shortcomings and be satisfied with having full access to my credit cards. Today, they're my best frends and we're all one big crazy family. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 06:01 pm: |
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My children are also the reason why in my last post I wrote "except" when I meant "accept" and spelled "friend" wrong. They're all around me yakkety-yakkin and wondering why mommy spends so much time on-line. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 94
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 09:53 pm: |
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I'm enjoying this discussion a lot. Something you said, ABM, really resonates w/me: the idea that children who are well off don't have the excuses of less well-off ones. Yes, yes.
And as a graduate student in child, family and education areas it BURNS me up to read all these negative research reports about "low SES [socioeconomic status]" parents and their kids--Meanwhile upper income parenting is let off the hook, even held up as the ideal.
Reminds me of the joke a Black comedian told after Columbine...something to the effect of just being amazed that these boys had a "private area" in their parents' house that the parents did not venture into, long enough for these kids to be plotting all this mayhem.
Anyway, yeah, I can relate.
Libralind2: You do not ever become fearful doing this? Has any parent ever given you an earful after you chastize their kids, or are they mostly appreciative? I one time told some kids (Black) to be quiet and sit down whose parents dropped them off in a movie while they went to another movie in the same theater. When the parents came in to collect them, the kids were turning around, pointing at me--no doubt telling on me. I held my breath, but then the adults just nodded and bopped the one kid upside his head. On their way out they just looked at me and gave me a nod... |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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Also:
"an oasis of sanity in a world that seems to have gone mad"
Rustang, you are holding out on us--you are some poet, man! I really appreciate the advice of parents who have been at this for longer than I have. I think part of the problem here is the disconnect that has happened, people listening to "experts" about childrearing instead of their elders. Not to say elders can say some fool things about childrearing, and as an "expert" in training myself I do think we have something to give. But there is such a thing as collective memory, and we need to take advantage of that. I like what you said, Cynique, about your children raising you. I am finding that more and more to be the case.
What an adventure! Working to be a good (enough) parent really is a revolutionary act!
And thanks, Kola. This issue really is part of my real life, as I'm sure you know as a parent yourself. Example: I was with my girls today at a playground--It was really crowded with kids and parents, but I noticed something: Many of the parents did not appear to be having a fun time. They're chasing after kids, making sure the kids are "safe," trying to get the kids to go down this slide instead of that slide... I wanted to stand on top of the climbing structure and yell "WILL ALL OF YOU JUST CHILL AND LET THESE CHILDREN BE!!!"
This overprotectiveness is another issue, I know. But together--lax discipline and constant fear of danger befalling little ones--it sure does take the joy out of seeing life through the eyes of your children.
OK, that's all for me for tonight--Thanks for listening to my rants! |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 141
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
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Yvette wrote: Example: I was with my girls today at a playground--It was really crowded with kids and parents, but I noticed something: Many of the parents did not appear to be having a fun time. They're chasing after kids, making sure the kids are "safe," trying to get the kids to go down this slide instead of that slide... I wanted to stand on top of the climbing structure and yell "WILL ALL OF YOU JUST CHILL AND LET THESE CHILDREN BE!!!"
Mah: One of the books I'm reading for review talks about how limited children's play has become compared to previous decades. Yes, there are real dangers, but some parents' paranoia is unfounded. I'm all for teaching my children to be savvy, confident, competent (the oldest just got her orange belt in karate at age 6), and trusting of their instincts, rather than afraid. Around here, when someone gets hurt, the inclination is to say, "Shake it off!" first, and kiss boo-boos later (as needed). ;-)
Also, [back to the book] the suburbs might offer relatively more available play space, but covenants and restrictions limit children's play as well (no treehouses or He-Man Woman-Hater clubhouses allowed, the "empty lots" we used to rummage around in are now "private property"). And no sidewalks! Which is why suburbanites tend to be heavier.
Also, we've seen this huge increase in children's organized sports, and yet at the same time this crisis of childhood obesity.
Finally, by 1990, the radius around their homes that the average child played in shrank to 1/9 of what it had been in 1970. |
Kola_boof
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 134
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 10, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
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I agree with you, Yvette.
Let me add:
Discipline, "after love"---is the most important ingredient in a child's upbringing.
It will decide how much control the child has an adult (Control brings the ability to judge and size up matters---to properly respond)...and discipline also enables a grown person to be ORGANIZED, punctual and to aim their goals with precision.
I have always wished that I was raised with more discipline---although, because it appeared that I was such a dreamy, reclusive child; totally ensconced in my imagination----there wasn't outward reason to really discipline me.
Children should not be allowed to curse and talk to their parents as total equals (a lot of which I see living as I do amongst Upper Middle Class white children)....and let me say that the spoiled, privileaged upper class kids are the absolutely WORST I've encountered with behavior problems. They are extremely arrogant and don't live life in natural time---but in t.v. time. They're exceedingly intelligent and over-packed with expectations.....but to contemplate what they will GIVE BACK to life....is often not even on their radar screen.
A lot of these children's acting out is because they crave Discipline from the parents---they see discipline as a form of LOVE, which is what it CAN BE when the parent's goal is to properly mold the child without doing damage.
My sons are given enormous freedom...but they also are responsible for tending the horse stables every day, kneeding the bread that we'll bake and DOING IT TO PERFECTION (which takes skill and time), keeping their rooms clean and keeping complete watch over the landscape of the property.
They also go with me to pray at the river and their father has turned them into EXPERT river-navigators, enforcing that they be the best swimmers and specially trained about currents and water symmetry. All of this requires intense discipline and concentration and ONENESS with natural order.
Children need these kinds of non-vocalized experiences to come to understand that the world is bigger than they are and that they must find their place in it....respectfully and not greedily....and must be aware at all times that once false move can remove them from the world.
I allow my sons to express themselves to the full degree of what they are feeling---but I also teach them never to yell or curse at people, to name call or antagonize---or to be loud and unruly in general. In SOME WAYS....my sons are RAISING ME and more Mature than I am. Of course, because they are MALES and VERY HANDSOME---they have few problems with people outside our home and everyone accepts them primarily on their OTHERNESS when set aside the other children.
And of course...on the basis that most people around here are scared shitless of their Topless African Mother who will quip in a minute---"No speak English".
So in this way...I am hoping my sons will be better than me.
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Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
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Mahoganyanais, I think I know which book you're talking about. I'm gonna have to add it to my list. One of my profs does clinical and research work around a phenomenon he calls "overscheduled kids, underconnected families" that fits into this lack of unstructured play time and "non-vocalized experiences" that you and Kola speak of.
OK, as long as I'm venting I'll mention one more thing that annoys me about parenting in 2005. Why do so many upper income parents seem to be getting all these exotic diagnoses for their children to explain their (a) lack of school achievement, (b) misbehavior, (c) whatever other aspect of them falling below expectations???
Not to disparage anyone with true disabilities, difficulties, etc--but there seems to be an awful lot of...new stuff afflicting well-off kids these days. I guess one thing is that big-Pharma is "following the money" and coming up with all sorts of (expensive) drugs to pander to these parents.
Any thoughts on this? |
Libralind2
Regular Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 35
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 03:35 pm: |
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Yvettep: No Im not afraid of parents. I usually correct children when I see parents who cant control them. It's not major. In addition I run three after school/literacy centers located in low income housing. I take no mess from the kids as we dont have time. We have to READ READ READ, work on that writing, concentrate on math and science and that is what I tell the kids. We dont have time for "cutting or acting" up. That is when they get this message "ok...I have talked to you for the last time..go home and bring your parent back". I get serious cooperation and never see the parent. I also dont do it with a "mean spirit". It clearly makes a difference when the kids in question know your doing it "with love" whether I know the child or not. I also talk to young men in the community who walk pass me with gun patches on pants or if I can see butts. My question is usually "why?" They usually talk to me about it and I impart what I hope is mind changing advice but I dont worry about them so much as I do the younger children in the program ages 5-13. |
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