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Yvettep
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 29
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 07:04 am: | 
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Hello, everyone. I am a new poster here and I wanted to say again how much I have enjoyed participating in this community.
I've come this morning to ask for your help. I am getting ready to write a short piece about affirmative action in higher education. In particular, one of the topics I want to explore is the often stated assertion that it harms Black students, by making them feel inferior and causing them to doubt their abilities (e.g., "I'm only here because they needed a Black student.")
In all honesty, in all my years trying to get one college degree or another, I have never heard this feeling expressed by any African American student--nor have I felt it myself. But maybe this is just me--maybe my friends and acquaintances just haven't been fully forthcoming with me or I've been travelling in especially arrogant circles or something.
Anyone out there have any experiences with this?
Thanks! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 10:25 am: |
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I have heard plenty of them say that, often after they got theirs and was gone.
Clarence Thomas is a big one on this. You might be able to find some of his speeches on it (where he also slimed his sister for being on public assistance--while, it turns out, she took care of a relative so he could stay in school.
You are beginning to catch my drift. This is an argument often put forth by beneficiaries of affirmative action--they don't refuse it and they don't give back their degrees--they want to pull the ladder up after they have climbed out some of them. Others I knew who were doing it were motivated by discussions they had had with their white friends. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1984
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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One little-discussed aspect of this issue is the resentment experienced by black students who are not affirmative action entrants being lumped with those who are. These kids have gotten into college the regular way and are annoyed that just because they are black, white classmates stigmatize them, assuming they have gotten the free ride of affirmative action. |
Yvettep
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 02:51 pm: |
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Thank you to both of you.
Chrishayden: I do remember, it seems, one of CT's rulings that had a personal story related to this... I'll have to look it up. I'm more interested in what you say: "Others I knew who were doing it were motivated by discussions they had had with their white friends." Can you say more about this? What is it, do you think, that the friends said that made the Black person feel that way.
Cynique, I too have heard about this resentment. But again, I have never come across anyone who personally related to me that they felt resentful, only second hand stories about what "some Black kids" feel. Can you say more about the feelings of stigmatization? Are the "afrimative action" Blacks they are being compared to poor students?
I am really just trying to figure this out. Like I said, the notion is foreign to me as far as first-hand experience, or the experiences of my family, friends, and acquaintances. But before I dismiss this as myth and/or anti-affirmative action rhetoric I'm curious about whether or not anyone has ever personally felt these things or knows of someone who has. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1985
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 03:44 pm: |
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No, I can't document my claim with names and dates, but there was as local TV special on affirmative action a couple of years back and I distinctly remember an interview with this group of black students at Northwestern University, purportedly one of the finest private institutions in the country, wherein they expressed how exasperated they were with white classmates always assuming that every black student on campus was there because of affirmative action. They further stated that they were tuition-paying students who had made good SAT scores and had passed entrance exams. |
Kola_boof
Newbie Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 03:56 pm: |
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Yvette,
TWO of my brothers have complained for YEARS about "white kids" thinking that they got into college via Affirmative Action programs.
My sisters have mentioned it, too--but not to the point of complaining.
I am the only one who never went to college.
My eldest brother is a BRAIN SURGEON. He could almost pass for white.....and the first thing that his white classmates used to ask (BUT ONLY...AFTER FINDING OUT THAT HE'S BLACK)....is #1) Affirmative Action and #2) Was his WHITE PARENT a doctor?
My brothers and sisters were always on the HONOR ROLL...they skipped grades....they all won Scholarships. Three of them graduated at the TOP of their class.
But people still assumed that they got in via Affirmative Action.
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Yvettep
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 06:25 pm: |
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I hear you, Kola and Cynique, about what Whites may assume about African American students. What I am trying to get a handle on is the assertion that this results in Black students themselves doubting their abilities, feeling decreased self-esteem, feeling they don't belong, etc.
I definitely got the reaction you both mentioned from some White students. It never bothered me because I figured that however I may (or may not) have gotten there, once I was there I had to prove myself and almost always did so--sometimes to the point of achieving beyond them.
I guess I am questioning what I see as a "new" tactic. Bakke and other decisions said "Affirmative action is bad because it discriminates against deserving White students"; This new tactic says "Affirmative action is bad because it actually harms Black students."
And again, I just have no experience of Black students being harmed in the ways that opponents are putting forth. But these explanations do sound "logical," maybe even "plausible" so perhaps they do exist--I have just never come across it. |
Kola_boof
Newbie Poster
Username: Kola_boof
Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 08:20 pm: |
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It's WAAAAYYYYYY too early to give up on Affirmative Action.
It HELPS black students more than anything else.
The sad thing....is that White Females have benefitted the greatest from it, bringing much of the Financial Bounty of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION back into the White Infrastructure--and amazingly, with wealthy blacks like Kobe Bryant (who invested millions of dollars into Italian companies IN ITALY and has bought his white parent-in-laws a $4 million mansion...yet given ZILCH to the black community in PHILADELPHIA)....it seems that all the civil rights gains of the 60's and 70's have MOSTLY benefitted the White community. In a very real way--there is no black community, not truly, anymore.
Most RICH Black PEOPLE, whether male or female (Diana Ross, Iman, etc.) marry White and end up channeling their riches back into the white power structure.
So I don't think Af. Action should go away. Blacks are still at the very bottom and they deserve to have an EQUALIZER that gives the poorest ones an opportunity to sneak into the fray.
Things are no where NEAR equal and I notice that the African "Caste" system is now being set up in America...to replace the one drop segregation system.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1987
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 11:39 pm: |
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Yvettep, my dear, you are your own best example. If you were an affirmative action entrant at a college, you need look no further than yourself for research. Any student who attended a college under this program and ended up graduating should feel pretty good about themself since many affirmative action enrollees either flunked out or dropped out because they were not adequately prepared to meet the rigid scholastic standards of these high-profile institutions. Furthermore, it's probably true that affirmative action or not, anybody who drop outs or flunks out of any college has to feel a little disappointed in themself. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 25, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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Yvettep:
The black people who reported that their white "friends" made them feel this way said that said "friends" came out and told them that they felt Affirmative Action was unfair and all but told them that their degrees would not be worth as much as those of white students--some times there was also some tale of some friend of theirs who did not get into school because of it--which assumes that the friend of the friend would have gotten in even if the black student had been there.
The feelings of the white students are relevant because this was what, in the situations I knew about, caused the black students to start feeling this way. It may not be pretty but its the truth. These guys definitely did not say anything about it until they started hanging out with whites and coming back with those stories--and they did not drop out or refuse the degrees either.
What do I feel about it? What is always overlooked is that Affirmative Action does not guarentee you graduate--so somebody who gets in on affirmative action and graduates should feel even better than somebody who didn't seems to me.
The people who push this tripe are beneath contempt. They want all of us down in the mud--and then they can complain about blacks not making anything of themselves. |
Steve_s
Veteran Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 04:36 pm: |
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Dear Yvettep, I'm aware that Clarence Thomas has made the argument that recipients of affirmative action may believe that their success is not based on their own achievement as individuals, but rather, derives from some benefit awarded to the group. Like everyone else who's posted, I've always considered this a cynical position and an ahistorical arguement, not least of all because, as Charles Ogletree states in All Deliberate Speed, segregation was actually a form of affirmative action program for whites. However, there's no end to examples of anti-black discrimination in education, for instance, in the biography of W.E.B. Du Bois I'm now reading, a policy of segregation of dormitories was imposed at Harvard in 1922 where there had been none before. Du Bois and Monroe Trotter had previously attended Harvard together, in fact, Trotter, possibly more militant than Du Bois in some ways, associated mostly with the white students at Harvard! In addition, there were restrictive quotas imposed on Jewish students, which might be related to the racist immigration quotas of the post-WWI era. But I've always considered the Clarence Thomas position, perhaps unfairly, to be based in social status. There's a biography of Thomas at the library, and now that you've got me interested, I may look through it.
The argument that you make, using psychological concepts like "feelings of inferiority" and "doubting one's ability" sounds like a different argument, almost a reversal of psychologist Kenneth Clark's argument in the Brown v. Board of Education legal case that students were psychologically damaged by segregation, which they dressed in social science data (and through the use of the "doll" experiments). Is there any attempt to use social science in this argument against affirmative action? There may be a contradiction between Thomas's and Clark's positions and it would be interesting to learn if Thomas commented on that aspect of Brown.
I found this link to an interesting NPR piece on Clark's impact on Brown:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1544636 |
Ancestry
Newbie Poster
Username: Ancestry
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 02:00 pm: |
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Yvettep:
Implicit in "feelings of inferiority," one could suggest, is the belief that one wasn't qualified in the first place, and similarly, that race was the main determinant, rather than a variable, for the person's acceptance into a college/university.
For an autobiographical analysis of this issue of education, affirmative action, and "feelings of inferiority" check Stephen Carters' Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby.
Recently (in the 5 months or so), in the Chronicle of H. Ed., there was an article claiming that recepients receiving affirmative action had a higher drop out rate and lower performance than "regularly" admitted students. Part of the problem is, the study did not address white women, the main recipients of affirmative action. And the study did not evaluate other recipients of "affirmative action," such as the children of alumni, athletes, people from other geographically diverse areas, etc....
Good luck! |
Yvettep
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
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I am very grateful for all this conversation on this topic. I ended up not writing the piece I had planned on this--It was originally going to be part of my "Black History Month" feature, but now I'm going to write about it as part of my general graduate student/higher education reflections.
Ancestry, I had forgotted all about that book. I'll hafta check it out. The Chronicle is a source I've gone back to often, as this is the one source that most mainstream academics are likely to get any in-depth info about the topic, if they get it at all. (The Chronicle also has a compilation of all the articles they've published over a couple decades or something on the topic.)
Steve_s: That NPR story was great. I referenced the Clarks' study in my masters thesis on Black mothers' racial socialization messages and continue to be interested in it.
I think this general issue of perceptions of others that you all mentioned above is crucial. What do you think of this: Perhaps the greater danger (that is, greater than so-called "inferiority complexes" resulting from AfAct) is in Blacks working their a** off (and maybe, in the process, loosing they minds) from overachieving to dispel the "affirmative action stigma." Think Poitier's "superNegro" character in "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." (Or, Condoleezza Rice, for that matter...)
My final position seems to be in line what some of you all are saying: affirmative action is needed, still. Those who are trying to dismantle it--and esp those using the argument of "concern" for us po' Blacks--have motives that are questionable, if not scary. Yet, I'm also suspicious about Clinton's "mend it, don't end it" jargon: Had it been implemented fully in the first place instead of being watered down, resisted, and attacked there might be nothing to "fix."
Sorry. Enough of a rant. Thanks again for your input! |
Ancestry
Newbie Poster
Username: Ancestry
Post Number: 10
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 08:33 pm: |
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Yvettep: Although affirmative action was always a political issue, it would be interesting to chart how it transformed from an antidiscrimination strategy to a measure to ensure diversity, which de-politicized and santitized the virility of US racism.
Also, it would be interesting if you did a global analysis of AfAct, particularly comparing, contrasting, and linking AfAct in Brasil and South Africa. |
Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 02:52 pm: |
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All of your comments have been useful to me: Thank you! I have found some interesting resources on this topic and thought I'd pass them along. These tend toward the academic--sorry, but that's the environment I'm in, so it's often where my head is at! If these are not available to you through a library system you have access to, let me know via email and I can try to email you pdf file.
Journal article: "I am not a racisit but..." Mapping White college students' racial ideology in the USA http://socsci.colorado.edu/~boardman/Teaching/Undergraduate/SOCY3015_S05/Bonilla -Silva.pdf
Journal article: Investigating Diversity In American Institutions: Going Beyond Awareness, Acceptance and its implications On Education http://www.nssa.us/nssajrnl/19_2/pdf/Final_Invest_Div_American_Inst_Mbuva.pdf
Web site on "Whiteness theory": Toward a Discipline Specific Bibliography of Critical Whiteness Studies
http://cdms.ds.uiuc.edu/Critical%20Whiteness/WhitenessTheoryEducation.htm |
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