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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 691
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 06:24 pm: | 
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The following article tells of relations between African countries and China. It's interesting to find who two of their allies are.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060208/ap_on_bi_ge/africa_china |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4325
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:07 am: |
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Looks like a Win-Win to me, Renata. Though I don't think Africans - and Black foks as a whole - will ever get a leg-up in this world until they build their own systems science/technology/commerce that are competitive with those of the West and Asia. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1790
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
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Abm,
What's the first thing we need to do in order to build science/technology/commerce? What's the very first step, IYO? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:38 am: |
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Btw Abm,
I ask you a lot of questions because you seem smart plus you don't seem like an Uncle Tom so I trust your opinion. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4328
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:58 am: |
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Tonya,
There are myriad things that must occur in Africa.
But I think for Africa to advance, I would make the following the most important of all documents Africa obeys:
1) "The Scientific Method."
2) Sir Isaac Newton's "Principia"
3) Plato's "The Republic"
4) "The Constitution of the United States of America."
5) Adam's Smith "The Wealth of Nations"
I would compel EVERY African nation to adopt US Constitution as it's stand of government and political discourse...TO THE LETTER!!!...for at least 100 years.
I would make the very best American farmers, agriculturalist and botanists primary ambassadors to every African nation.
I would take every African child that demonstrated superior intellectual capabilities from their parents and put them in assort forms of genius academies throughout the continent. And I'd style their scholastic regimens in a fashion as rigorous as those of the former Soviet gymnast academies.
And I would kill off every monarchy, ruling and governing class in every African country and do the same to their archrivals.
If I were GOD, those are some of the things I would do to save Africa.
Btw: Perhaps much of the above should be done with Black foks in the US, as well. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1793
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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Wow..
It'll take quite awhile for me to respond knowledgeably because there's so much I have to look up (which I will do, btw). But for now, it seems you're saying that you'd "Americanize" Africa.. sorta like what the U.S. is trying to do over in Iraq/throughout the middle east. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 12:50 pm: |
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Abm and Tonya:
Before the Africans can get it together technologically they will have to unify the continent politically and get the Europeans and Americans out of their ass.
You see from what has happened with Japan and South Korea that there is no percentage for these countries in allowing them to develop their own industries. Look at what has happened to the U.S. auto industry now that these people make cars.
They want to keep those people as providers of raw materials and consumers of their manufactured goods.
Abm, you have no practical experience in the real world at all.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4329
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 05:57 pm: |
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Tonya,
You might call it "Americanize". I'd call it using what works until you can find/development something BETTER.
Chris,
You're crazy!
There is NOWAY African's are going to toss the West (and now Asia) from the continent. Just not gonna happen.
Why?
Because then what the hell do Africans do?
Man. You got famine, slavery, illiteracy, tribalism, genocide and disease ravaging the continent.
And Africa has few viable means of producing end-products that are competitive on a world scale. You can have all the oil, rubber, cocoa, diamonds, etc. in the world. But if it lacks the skill and the guts to mine, refine, market and distribute those items, really what good are they?
Example: Are Zimbabweans eating better now that Mugabe booted all the White farmers?
And the industrial and political might of Japan and South Korea are the product of AMERICAN involvement, playah. Don't you read your history? Japan and South Korea USED what it learned from the West and built from there.
That's also what's occurring in China and India.
You say I don't have any practical experience in the world. I say how the fuhk can you bring a continent together when hug chunks of it are dying of hunger and AIDS and it's people lack the wherewithal to do a dayam thing about that? |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1797
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 07:18 pm: |
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"I say how the fuhk can you bring a continent together when hug chunks of it are dying of hunger and AIDS and it's people lack the wherewithal to do a dayam thing about that?"
I know I'm gonna sound naive, maybe even a little silly for asking this, but what if the richest of the rich and even some poorer Africans/African Americans were to pool their money (spare cash) to employ folks to go over to Africa to teach the Africans beforementioned skills? It's just that what you say sounds good, Abm, but I'd feel a lot better if it were all done/managed/controlled by us. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1798
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 07:24 pm: |
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Chris,
"Before the Africans can get it together technologically they will have to unify the continent politically and get the Europeans and Americans out of their ass."
Wouldn't it take an all-out war to get the Europeans/Americans out of Africa? |
Schakspir
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Schakspir
Post Number: 177
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 07:31 pm: |
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Chris,
You're crazy!
There is NOWAY African's are going to toss the West (and now Asia) from the continent. Just not gonna happen.
Why?
Because then what the hell do Africans do?
Man. You got famine, slavery, illiteracy, tribalism, genocide and disease ravaging the continent.
And Africa has few viable means of producing end-products that are competitive on a world scale. You can have all the oil, rubber, cocoa, diamonds, etc. in the world. But if it lacks the skill and the guts to mine, refine, market and distribute those items, really what good are they?"
ABM, the Africans did fine before the Europeans came, and they'll do better once they throw the Europeans out. Africans are not children. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4330
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:16 am: |
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Tonya,
I am ambivalent about just how much outside involvement should Africa receive. I tend to be utilitarian in nature. I think Africa is too deeply affected by the West for there to be complete/utter seperation.
But I also think that as long as the West is directly influences the direction of Africa, the continent is less likely to find its own way. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 871
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:29 pm: |
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A friend of mine just finished her PhD and returned to South Africa to work. She is a good example of one thing that needs to happen: reverse the brain drain and get highly talented folks back to the continent once they have made their money and/or gotten their degrees, credentials, and experience. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1819
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:33 am: |
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Yvette,
"reverse the brain drain"
What does that mean? |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 873
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:19 am: |
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Tonya,
I do not have hard stats to back this up, but my sense is that in many African countries (as well as developing nations elsewhere) the best and brightest go abroad to be educated, but many do not return--for various reasons (including that they can't for fear of death, imprisonment, etc). So this results in a drain of one of these countries' most important resources: intelligence.
I'm not saying that this will solve all of the continent's problems. It is just one key factor to me. In fact, in addition to bringing the benefits of their educations and the latest skills to their native countries, many of these folks also bring back a wider knowledge of the US including the democratic ideals that ABM spoke of.
(Of course, they likely bring back a lot of bad habits and ideals, too, but that's another story!) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4334
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:29 am: |
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Yvettep,
Good point.
I've read what has exacerbated the HIV/AIDS issue in Africa is legions of the African nurses are immigrating to America and Europe. And this "brain drain" will worsen because there are shortages of nursing throughout the West, thus enticements to drain Africa of its best nurses from Africa will almost certainly increase. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4335
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
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One of the reasons why I include Adam's Smith "The Wealth of Nations" above is it provides, arguably, the most efficiently broad reference of just what wealth/power is, how it is created, maintained and grows. It's really the Bible of how/why White men dominate this world. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4336
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 10:34 am: |
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'Vette,
"(Of course, they likely bring back a lot of bad habits and ideals, too, but that's another story!)"
Indeed. But "to make an omelette, you gottah break some eggs." |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:15 am: |
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Yvette:
...the best and brightest go abroad to be educated, but many do not return--for various reasons (including that they can't for fear of death, imprisonment, etc). So this results in a drain of one of these countries' most important resources: intelligence.
Abm:
I've read what has exacerbated the HIV/AIDS issue in Africa is legions of the African nurses are immigrating to America and Europe. And this "brain drain" will worsen because there are shortages of nursing throughout the West, thus enticements to drain Africa of its best nurses from Africa will almost certainly increase.
Tonya:
It seems so hopeless. I know it's not, but it just feels that way sometimes. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4340
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:26 am: |
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Yvettep says: "...best and brightest go abroad to be educated, but many do not return--for various reasons (including that they can't for fear of death, imprisonment, etc). So this results in a drain of one of these countries'..."
Tonya,
One of the reasons WHY above I advocate the wholesale slaying of ALL of Africa's ruling classes is for THAT very reason. It's dangerous for many highly educated African expatriates to return to their homelands because they represent a clear/present threat to the continent's squalid, inept status quo. And there's such selfish, petty corruption and mediocrity amongst ALL of the African elites, it would be nearly IMPOSSIBLE to cure the continent's problems with MOST of them around. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3925
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:29 am: |
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Is the black population in America a microcosm of the continent of Africa in the global arena? I wouldn't be Cynique if I didn't wonder that since as long as black viability is inexolerably tied to the white man, in the future, color will continue to influence people's choices in life. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 875
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:37 am: |
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Cynique: I understood the first part of your post but not the second. Are you saying that some of these same forces are occurring in Black American communities (w/regard to "brain drains" etc)? If so, I would agree. That is a very interesting thing to think about and I'm sure I'll be doing just that.
But what did you mean by the second part? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3926
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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Well in a way, America's black ghettos are like little colonies with few resources, that too many people are reluctant to return to once they escape and achieve a measure of affluence. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3927
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:57 am: |
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OK, you wanted to know what I meant by the second part. I think since blackness is unfortunately linked with "inertia", that the coming generations of black people will increasingly associate upward mobility with whiteness and will continue to gravitate toward intermarriage. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4344
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:59 am: |
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Cynique,
I think we are a microcosm of Africa to the extent that we are a dark and, to much an extent, defeated people. Thus, we in many ways behave - to out detriment - in ways congruent with that of our African kin.
But then, our circumstance is further complicated by the fact that, unlike in Africa, we are a MINORITY of the people here. And were are in almost EVERY WAY (genetic, historical, economic, political and cultural) very much a parent and child of America.
Thus, it is almost a metaphysical impossibility for African Americans to completely sever from White Americans and the rest of America as a whole. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4345
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:05 pm: |
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Cynique: "blackness is unfortunately linked with "inertia", that the coming generations of black people will increasingly associate upward mobility with whiteness and will continue to gravitate toward intermarriage.
Cynique,
I think you are right that this is the perception. But what you might find ironic about that is if you look closely at Whites, both in America and ESPECIALLY in Europe (whose caucasian population is CONTRACTING), you may conclude Whites feel very much the same about themselves as you refer to about Blacks.
So. I guess ALL of us human being - Black, White, Yellow and Brown - are going to either grow and thrive or dwindle and die...together. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3928
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:18 pm: |
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It may yet boil down to being about class, not color. People tend to regard the survival of the fittest idea as having racial overtones, but the fittest in EVERY race have the best chance of thriving. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4350
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:22 pm: |
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Cynique,
Indeed. I think Africa (especially with respect AIDS) is at a point where it had better either make a evolutionary step towards the future...or it will go the way of the brontosaurus. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 876
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 01:03 pm: |
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This is a great discussion! Dag, ABM, I had not heard that about the nurse issue in Africa. Does not surprise me, tho. And yes, I agree, Cynique that class is tied into this here on this continent--and in Africa as well, if you count the "royalty" as a separate class. (I am COMPLETELY ignorant of how social class operates in Africa, tho, so I defer to those of you who know more about this than I do.)
One of my dream research topics (if I ever graduate from my current program!) has to do with looking at aspects of Black American social mobility that mirror aspects of transnational geographical mobility. I suspect I'd find many similar psychological and sociological phenomenon in, say, the Black middle class (e.g., some shades of post traumatic stress, "survivor guilt," ambiguous loss) as has been found in immigrant groups.
Interesting what you say about AIDS specifically, ABM. The friend I was speaking of--her research area was HIV/AIDS and her work back home in SA has to do with this. Plus, when you look at the alarming HIV/AIDS stats in the Black American population... This disease is going to be a key test for all of us Black folk. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 693
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 06:23 pm: |
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And what's happening to the ghettoes now? They're being dismantled, buildings are being torn down, black people are being told to move elsewhere, and white people are moving in and buying the properties.
Let's hope this doesn't happen to Africa. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 1834
Registered: 07-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:40 pm: |
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You know, I was thinking about that awhile back, Reneta. Where are they trying to drive black folks now, the burbs? I have an aunt who lives near Temple University (Cosby's alma mater). She's been constantly harassed ever since the university decided to expand. She refuses to sell but last I heard, others in the neighborhood are being harassed as well. I'll have to call her soon to see how things are. I haven't spoken to her in awhile.
Anyway,
you said you hope it doesn't start in Africa. I'm wondering if it hasn't already. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 697
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:12 pm: |
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I don't think they're trying to get them out to the burbs....but further out than that. The homes near downtown here (including GRADY, which is HUGE) are being knocked down, and $200,000 condos are put up in their places (for ONE BR's...are they smoking crack?) along with small businesses. There are no places for these families even in the FIVE SURROUNDING METRO AREA COUNTIES, so those who aren't able to afford the new intown prices are forced into the RURAL areas or are moving to other cities.
People who used to live in HUD housing are now facing 700.00 rental rates in the same neighborhood. Some families have lived there (believe it or not) for over 20 years.
(That's one reason I refuse to live in government housing unless ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY: they can throw you out whenever they feel like it, whether or not you've been a good tenant.)
The inner city used to be considered to be the "black" area. Now the black people with money are moving to the suburbs (which is actually cheaper than intown), while the white people are taking the "inner city" (guess they were tired of black folk following them there). Now the poor inner city people have to just find somewhere else to go. |
Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 698
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:15 pm: |
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I HATE imminent domain and wish that someone would put a stop to it. When you BUY a property, and have spent all your life keeping it and paying the taxes on it, it should REMAIN YOURS! |
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