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Latimer
Newbie Poster
Username: Latimer
Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 9 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 07:06 pm: | 
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I have just read an excerpt from Zane's novel, Love is Never Painless and with all due respects her writing badly needs editing. Her writing is cliche-ridden and longwinded. This is certainly disconcerting to me as a reader and I am sure to all the other young blacks out there who read her books. Zane, please make sure your books are edited properly before you thrust them upon the reading public. Readers pay their hard earned dollars for your product. The least you can do is put out a high quality product. You have money, pay to have these books edited dammit. Here is the excerpt:
"Jamellah pulled the heavy Persian rug toward the hallway and off the wall-to-wall carpeting. Grabbing the vacuum cleaner and wrapping the thin cord around her slim brown hand, she turned the power on and began the task of cleaning the carpet. Humming an old Commodores tune, she pushed and pulled the vacuum until beads of perspiration formed above her nut-brown upper lip. Not only was today Friday, her usual cleaning day, but she was expecting company. Not just any company, but that of the sexy black male persuasion. Kenny was thirty-three years old, the owner of a small but profitable construction company, and very married." (108 words) - a bit wordy.
"Jamellah pulled the Persian rug toward the hallway and began to clean the carpet. She sang and perspired while cleaning. Friday was her cleaning day and she was also expecting Kenny who was thirty-three, married and owned a construction company." I did the same paragraph in 40 words.
"...Not just any company, but that of the sexy black male persuasion..." (sophomoric)
"...wrapping the thin cord around her slim brown hand, she turned the power on..." (we all know a vacuum cord is thin. Does the writer need to tell us this? Do we need to know that she turned the power on, wouldn't it be obvious? "her slim brown hand?" (come on man, this is absolute rubbish, high school writing)
"and very married? Here is another classic. "...She pushed and pulled the vacuum..." instead of (she vacuumed) I can go on and on but I don't want to waste your time. But you people know where I am going. This writing is pathetic and from someone who claims to be a publishing mogul. This is the crap that our young people have to read. O Lord deliver us from the pretenders. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2589
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 07:49 pm: |
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Okay. But people don't normally read these sorts of books looking for brevity. Some people prefer long-winded and wordy. Don't you think that after writing and publishing as many books as she has and being on the NYT bestseller list more often than most, that Zane has developed a winning formula? I would think that she knows what works. You are free to state your opinions, but unless your empire is greater than hers or you're a book critic, I don't think you're in the position to give Zane any advice. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6303
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 08:28 pm: |
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I'm a stickler for brevity and conciseness, myself, Latimer. When it comes to words, I subscribe to the "don't-use-two-when-one-will-do" school of writing and I hate long drawn-out descriptions of scenery unless the writer has exceptional skills in infusing vividness and invoking dimension. I do, however, appreciate detail when it comes to portraying characters. But, alas, people tend to fall in love with their prose and they resist or even resent editing. At this point in her career, Zane can indulge her redundancy as long as she keeps it racy. |
Latimer
Newbie Poster
Username: Latimer
Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2004
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 12:03 am: |
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Mzuri, when you are accustomed to reading crap like this, as it seems you are, you wouldn't know good writing from bad. I don't care how much money she makes or how many books she published, they are some bad writers out there including the ones at the New York Times, and please Mzuri, do not base a writer's ability to write well on how many awards, money or accolades they acquire or how many Empires they build. Zane is not the only one out there writing poorly, many writers like her can be found in very respectable literary traditions; I can list hundreds of them, some of whom received many accolades became rich from feeding people crap. Listen man, all I am saying Mzuri is to read with a critical ear and mind. It is most disconcerting to find people who are making claims to be writers failing to keep up with the requirements of good grammar, syntax and simple sentence construction. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2594
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 01:38 am: |
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Latimer - I don't even read Zane. As a matter of fact, I don't read any fiction at all. I'm just saying that evidently her formula works since she has tons of buyers, and a loyal fanbase who buy whatever she produces.
It is valid to consider a writer's earning power because most people don't buy crap, they won't buy crap twice, and writers don't become gazillionaires by producing garbage. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean that it's crap. But you can't please all of the people all of the time and since you don't like the excerpt then don't buy the book, it's not as if you have lost any revenue.
As far as brevity goes, since the books/stories are about sex, they could probably all be reduced to a single page. But then you wouldn't have a book, would you?
Anyway, visit Zane's website and send her an e-mail. I don't think she'll see your post here for a while. |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 01:42 am: |
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Recent posts around here made me interested to dig up what Kola Boof has said about Zane's books. Very interesting: http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/7242/3814.html?1108626120 |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 7223
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 07:13 am: |
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Latimer,
I don't think you've presented enuff of ANYTHING here for which a reasonable person can judge the quality of Zane's writing.
ONE paragraph does not a writer make.
MOST fiction is laden with verbosity or, what I prefer to call, filler material. Zane is HARDLY unique in that regard.
And maybe one would have to read the entire book to judge its quality. Because perhaps Zane provides some details amongst what you consider "wordy" that introduces or supports other areas of Love is Never Painless. |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 332
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 08:47 am: |
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To all: That excerpt in Latimer's post from the book is not written by Zane. The "editor" of the book is Zane so Black Voices introduced it as an excerpt from "Zane's New Book" but that story is written by another woman if you pay attention. I read the original post linking to the excerpt on Black Voices and it's not Zane's story.
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 333
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 08:50 am: |
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The story in Latimer's post is written by Eileen M. Johnson not Zane: http://www.simonsays.com/content/book.cfm?tab=1&pid=509171&agid=2
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3202
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 12:23 pm: |
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All:
As Abe Lincoln said, God must love common people because he made so many of them.
Even if this was not written by Zane Latimer's critique is like a Greco Roman wrestling enthusiast critiquing the WWE--
It don't even matter.
When you are writing for a certain public, as Zane is, you have to write to a certain level and for a certain mindset--to wit: They do not want to read Proust. They do not want to read Toni Morrison. They want to read something hot quick down and dirty and get to the good parts full of rocko socko fucking.
Now you are about to bring up Nabokov.
Zane's public will not read Nabokov. Neither will most of the public from what I can see.
Your criticisms are those of an expert on the Dutch Masters trying to tell comic book enthusiasts they should go to the Louvre instead of subscribing to Spider-Man.
They know that. They don't want to hang around no stinking Louvre.
Zane is in business. She is not writing for the intelligentsia.
If she listened to you, she'd be starving, submitting to the Paris Revue, getting put off, frustrated.
Often we have people come to this discussion group decrying the fact that people are reading "trash" instead of the nuerotic, Euro centric academic pissant graduates of the Iowa MFA program. You are pissing in the wind.
Resign yourselves to the fact that the popular artists are crying on their way to the bank--furthermore, you can go back through history and find reviews castigating Joyce, Poe, Himes, Dickens, Hemingway and many others that the literary crowd practically creams over today.
People remember the writers. They don't remember the people catcalling from the peanut gallery.
Latimer, if you so bad, get your stuff out there and show us. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2597
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 12:33 pm: |
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quote: She is not writing for the intelligentsia
  
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6307
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 02:20 pm: |
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Let Zane fans read trash but excoriate them for wearing hair weaves and using skin lighteners. Egad! Where do our priorities lie? heh-heh. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3215
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 02:37 pm: |
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Cynique:
How do you know Zane fans are wearing hair weaves and using skin lighteners? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6312
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 02:48 pm: |
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Because her readers are mostly black women who are into fantasy. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3216
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 03:17 pm: |
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Cynique:
Understand I am not trying to be difficult here but is this conclusion based on the result of some survey? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6315
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 05:01 pm: |
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I feel comfortable in saying that a substantial number of Zane's readers probably wear weaves or have their hair permed because this is true of the black female population at large. Using skin lightner is a more tricky because a lot of lotions and creams and balms don't bill themselves as bleaches but have incredients in them that do lighten the skin. BTW, I was being flippant in making the remark I did. |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 341
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 05:06 pm: |
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I bet Cynique is right hell all of us wear perms and weaves. I wouldnt be caught dead without my do done up.
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Yvettep
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 29, 2006 - 06:43 pm: |
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That Kola review of Zane was funny, Enchanted. Respect the Morrisons and the Walkers as is their due. But I'd be willing to bet they never wrote anything that inspired someone to conceive a baby! LOL |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3223
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 10:36 am: |
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She is not writing for the intelligentsia --
A brief note of explanation
There is intelligentsia, a group to which anybody might claim membership and there is The Intelligentsia
In the US. Literary World, you are talking about formal members of academia (tenured professors, possesors of advanced degrees, particularly English Majors and members of English Departments, graduates and teachers in MFA programs--with top props going to those associated with the University of Iowa Creative Writing program--
Publishers and consumers of literary magazines (The Paris Review, Granta, Callaloo, tops)
Professional writers of literary fiction, devotees and patrons of literary writers, top book review magazine (The New York Times Book Review, Mosaic, Quarterly Review of Black Books, Poets and Writers, American Poetry Review) top reviewers (Michuko Kakutani, Literary Proctologist the LadyGoddessQueenBufu of the profession) and others (groups such as Cave Canem, the Darkroom Collective) who might be termed the GATEKEEPERS--
These are the people that make you or break you in the field of literary fiction (or poetry)they say you is or you ain't and you probably won't be recognized until they lay the funk on you.
I was trained by and have written for The Intellligentsia (poems published in Longshot and Drumvoices Revue, which are recognized but not the creme de la creme)and I enjoy reading for pleasure mostly literary works (John Edgar Wideman, James Joyce, some Morrison, Ralph Ellison, et al).
Having been trained by, but not Officially Maimed by the group (being degreed but not having an MFA) and not being a member of academia, I have resigned myself that I will never be canonized by them, in fact, have come to glory in an underground outlaw status with regard to them, and have decided to write for the hoi polloi so you can take that into account when I launch my vicious personal attacks on them.
However there is method to my madness.
Their influence, once terrifying and all pervasive, has waned with the emphasis on the bottom line in publishing, the growth of Internet writing, and the realization that nobody is reading them or even knows who they are something that was not true say during the 60's when The Literary Establishment in this country still had balls. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2640
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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Thank you for expounding Chris. But since you didn't capitalize "the intelligentsia" in your original post, I just thought you were referring to people like me - intellectuals considered as a group or class, especially as a cultural, social or political elite.
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3233
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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Mzuri:
You got me on yo' MIND! Ya cain't help yo'self.
You can't stand yourself when I touch you.
Good Gawd! Ow! |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2642
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
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You wish, jive turkey  |
Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 41
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 01:23 pm: |
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Latimer, I am flattered that you would select posting an excerpt from Love is Never Painless as your ELEVENTH post since 2004. I must really be a special part of your life for you to A)seek out and read an excerpt from the book in the first place when you think that I am such a horrible writer and B)spend the time and effort to come on here and try to make me look bad.
The irony is that, like someone said, I did not even write it. However, I do stand by Eileen's writing 100% and there were no typos in that passage that you posted. Just your assessment of how things should be worded. I would love to read some of your writing. Where can I find it? By the way, you had numerous errors in your post about my poor editing; another irony. "With all due RESPECTS her writing badly needs editing?"
Since you have only posted 12 times since 2004, I am assuming that you are one of the many people on here who post under various names. Ancient Reader came on the board and only posted about me in that Millenia Black thread. Now he has evaporated back into the woodwork as well; probably to go respond to his own blogs on his other Zane-bashing web site. Someone really should write a book about people who pose as numerous people on discussion boards and the rationale behind it. How they pretend to be experts on subjects and have nothing to back that theory up.
Why don't you post some of the actual reader reviews of Love is Never Painless on here so people can see what those who have read the entire thing have to say?
Thank you to the person who alerted me about this thread. It gave me a good laugh for today.
Zane
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Zane
Newbie Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 42
Registered: 11-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 01:43 pm: |
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Here is a REAL EXCERPT from my novella in Love is Never Painless. My story is about a woman who marries her college sweetheart, has a great career, two lovely children and then has a horrible car accident. After the accident she has a serious back injury and becomes addicted first to pain pills and then to crack. It is about the devastating effect that drug abuse has on a family and how a man must choose between the woman that he loves more than life itself and the safety and security of his children. In today's society, there are millions of people addicted to pain pills because of doctors who prescribe them in order to mask the real problems. Then the doctors cut them off and they are faced with trying to function as addicts.
I know, I know, what a childish storyline, right?
I am sure people on this board will point out that it is full of the typical porn, lack of storyline, cliches, wordiness, and the poor editing that Latimer claims my writing is full of. Feel free to pick it apart line by line, Latimer. Zane
Love is Never Painless
“Staring Evil in the Face”
By Zane
ROBIER
Tiphanie slid in the house like a snake; trying to prevent me from hearing her. It was five past noon on a Saturday. She had been missing since Wednesday evening. Once again, she had failed to pick up the kids from school that day. Embarrassment was the least of my emotions. How could a mother forget about her own kids? Over and over? The answer was actually simple. My wife, Tiphanie, was a drug addict and drug addicts only care about one thing: drugs.
“Tiphanie, are you alright?” I asked her, entering the foyer from the kitchen where the kids were eating the chicken fingers, fries and applesauce I had prepared them for lunch.
There was no doubt that she was stunned by my appearance. She thought she would be able to make it upstairs and hide under the covers for at least a few hours before we caught wind of her being home. Not a chance. We had been around that block too many times.
“I said, are you alright?” I persisted.
“I’m fine, Robier.”
She leaned against the banister, letting her right foot rest on the bottom step. She was bone thin and frail. If someone blew on her too hard, she would probably tip over.
“You don’t look fine. You look like a skeleton.”
“Shit! Do we have to go through this bullshit every damn day? I’m sick and tired of you treating me like a fucking baby!”
There it was. The anger. The lashing out at me as if I were the one who had neglected our home and family for three days.
I lowered my voice to a whisper, hoping she would not yell out again with the kids in the other room. “Tiphanie, we don’t discuss this every day. You’re not here half the time. Hell, you just got back from another disappearing act.”
She sighed, glared at me, and put her hand on her hip. “I need to get some sleep.”
I caught up to her by the time she made it to the fourth step and grabbed her elbow.
“No way. My mother’s on her way over here to watch the kids. I was going out to search for you but now I’m taking you to the emergency room.”
She tried to yank her arm away but was too weak to give it half an effort.
“The only place I’m going is up here to bed. I need to take some medicine and lie down.”
“Medicine?” I asked, feeling myself getting heated. I had promised myself I would be compassionate with her, if and when she did turn up. “You mean pain pills?”
“What-the-fuck-ever!”
“Mommy!” I heard Lennox call from the next room.
Our 4-year-old son was extremely attached to his mother. He would undoubtedly be crawling down out of his chair to come see her. I could not allow it so I let Tiphanie’s arm loose. She started running up the stairs. She did not want him to see her in that state either. She never did.
“Tiphanie, I love you. I’m here for you, baby,” I called after her. “Let me help you help yourself.”
She glanced down over the railing at me. “I don’t need help with shit!”
“The truly sad part is that you probably honestly believe that nonsense.”
“It’s not nonsense.” She paused at the master bedroom door. For a second, I saw the real Tiphanie flicker in her eyes. “Seriously, Robier. I’m exhausted. Let me grab some sleep and we’ll talk later.”
No sooner had she closed the door when Lennox came rushing into the foyer. “Was that Mommy?”
“Yeah, little man,” I said, coming back down the few steps. “Mommy’s home but she’s resting right now.”
He frowned. “She’s always resting.”
I lifted him up in my arms. He shared the same curly brown hair and sparkling brown eyes as his mother.
“Lennox, sometimes she needs a little more sleep than the rest of us.”
“Is Mommy sick? Where has she been? Why didn’t she pick us up from school the other day?”
I bit my bottom lip, not knowing how to respond. So I did what I normally did. I started tickling him so he would forget about it. I realized that method would not work indefinitely. Sooner or later he would figure out Tiphanie was not the normal mother, like his 10-year-old sister Carson already had. The disappointment and sadness within Carson was growing daily. Kids have to grow up much faster these days than we did and they are not dummies. Carson had surely heard Tiphanie come in but made no move to come check on her; for good reason.
I flung Lennox over my shoulder and carried him back into the kitchen so he could finish his lunch.
Fifteen minutes later, Momma was at the door. I had called her on her cell to alert her that Tiphanie was back. Like everyone else, she had been worried sick. I did not want to wait for her to arrive to put her somewhat at ease. To some degree, my pain was her pain but her main concern was her grandchildren and the stability of their home. My parents had witnessed it all over the years. My father remained calm but my mother was fed up and her solution had become straight-up resentment.
"So where is the crazy bitch?” Momma asked the second I opened the door.
“Momma, don’t talk about my wife like that. Please. I’ve asked you to watch that numerous times.”
I glanced toward the family room in the rear of the house, where Carson and Lennox were watching music videos. The last thing I needed was for them to hear the two of us going at it also.
“Son, the time has come for you to face reality. Tiphanie is beyond help.” She came all the way in and closed the front door. “The woman you married and had children with died years ago.”
I was floored. “Tiphanie is not dead. How can you say that?”
She held her palm up in the air; her religious stance. Both of my parents were devout Christians. “Because it’s the gospel.”
I found myself rolling my eyes in dismay, something I rarely did to anyone; rather less the woman who birthed me.
“Are you still willing to baby-sit the kids?” I asked.
She flung her heavy purse from one shoulder to the other. “As far as I’m concerned, I can’t baby-sit my own grands. They’re as much my babies as they are yours.”
“I’ll take that as a yes.”
She went to the coat closet, opened it, and started getting coats off hangers for Carson and Lennox.
“I’m not staying here with them. We’ll be at my house.” She eyed the master bedroom door, probably hoping she could bore a hole through Tiphanie with telepathy. “They’re only going to be young once and neither one of them needs to be subjected to this nightmare.”
I decided the best thing to do would be to rush them out of there. Momma was on the verge of losing her religion and going on a rampage.
“Thanks for coming to get them, Momma.”
“Not an issue, Robier. But, if you don’t do something about that cra… woman soon, it’s going to become an issue. Your daddy and I are reaching the point where we’re ready to petition the courts for custody.”
My knees weakened and I had to find the wall to hold me up. “Oh, God! Momma, no!”
She stared me down. “Someone has to protect those children,” she stated vehemently, pointing to the family room where we could hear music and the kids laughing. “I realize you didn’t set out to marry a drug addict and Tiphanie certainly didn’t intentionally become one. Still, facts are facts and the situation is the situation. You need to make a choice.”
“A choice?”
“Yes, Tiphanie or your children.” She waved her index finger in my face. “There can never be one happy family in this house. You’ve practically run yourself in the ground, trying to help her and chase her down from drug house to drug house. How are my grands going to benefit with a father in the ground and a mother in a crack house?”
I was angry then. Not because she was wrong. Because she was right. I had been suffering from anxiety attacks and chest pains lately. The stress was taking an obvious toll on me, both emotionally and physically.
“That’s enough, Momma!” I yelled.
I was ready for her to slap me for disrespecting her. Even grown children are supposed to respect their parents. Instead, she grabbed my chin and kissed me on the cheek.
“No, Robier, it’s not nearly enough.” She sighed and headed for the family room to gather the kids. “But it will have to be enough for today.”
It took another ten minutes for them to clear out. Momma decided she would keep them overnight and take them to church on Sunday. Lennox was delighted. Being at his grandparents’ house meant ice cream sundaes and baking homemade cookies. Carson managed to keep a straight face as she went upstairs to her room to pack an overnight bag. She had plans with a neighbor girl to go to the movies but knew it was better for her to go. There would likely be serious drama when Tiphanie woke up and she did not want to witness her mother–or me–like that.
Once they were gone, I went into the kitchen and fixed some chicken noodle soup. I saved half for Tiphanie. She would be starving when she finally resurfaced. I sat at the kitchen counter and lost myself in thought. How had it all happened? We once lived a fairytale. Now we were both staring evil in the face.
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 363
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 01:45 pm: |
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Zane because you are the top black woman writer in America you need to know that a lot of "wannabe writers" come to this site and they HATE anyone who has already been successful at what they do. They probably have not even read your work but crabs in a barrel hate to see a sister come up. I think Kola Boof's review of your book "Afterburn" said it all (I posted the link) because like Kola said every year the market is flooded with people who try to copy Zane but they dont get the sales success. I will admit that I have not read your books but there is no way that you are selling millions of books and cannot write. People obviously love what you write or you wouldnt be the top black woman writer in America.
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Jackie
Regular Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 321
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:15 pm: |
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Errrr...Zane. Did Latimer's post warrant a response ? I don't think so. Your writing and success speaks for itself. There will always be critics and haters just like there'll always be supporters and admirers. Keep up the good work. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 171
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:21 pm: |
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Zane wrote:
Just your assessment of how things should be worded. I would love to read some of your writing. Where can I find it?
Enchanted wrote from the amen corner:
Zane because you are the top black woman writer in America you need to know that a lot of "wannabe writers" come to this site and they HATE anyone who has already been successful at what they do.
If a reader voices criticism about any writer's writing, the comeback should be, well what have you written? Or you must be a wannabe writer? Or they are said to be 'hatin'. C'mon folks.
I've never read anyone to question a poster, if they can sing better than after another poster voices their opinion regarding a singer. Or if they have sold more CDs or had more sold out performances. Or if they can act better of if they be a better civil rights leader or congress person.
Those of other professions (paid or not) get ripped every day on this board, but as soon as someone voices their opinion about an author, especially if they post on the site, then it's -- well have you written, can you write a better book, visit the singer/actor/rapper/politician/whatever's website and drop them a line and tell them what you think, etc. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2675
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 05:42 pm: |
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That's because this is a writers' forum. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6373
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 09:51 pm: |
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Actually, Mzuri, "Thumper's Corner" started out as an online book club for readers to discuss books. Writers kind of gravitated here. To me, JMHO makes a valid point. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2679
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 10:15 pm: |
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My bad. I always thought that everyone who posts here is a writer - or a book critic  |
Jackie
Regular Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 322
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 01:41 am: |
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I'm still trying to figure out what Jmho wrote ?? What the heck is he/she talking about ? LOL !
Criticism Yes...Constructive No.
Latimer: "Zane, please make sure your books are edited properly before you thrust them upon the reading public. Readers pay their hard earned dollars for your product. The least you can do is put out a high quality product. You have money, pay to have these books edited dammit."
Latimer:"I can go on and on but I don't want to waste your time. But you people know where I am going. This writing is pathetic and from someone who claims to be a publishing mogul. This is the crap that our young people have to read. O Lord deliver us from the pretenders.
Happy New Year Errbody !
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 376
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:37 am: |
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Jackie aren't you a published writer activist and filmmaker? Cynique Mzuri's right because there's a lot of famous writers who post here that guy Solomon, Kevin Powell (remember his soap?) of course Zane and used to be Kola, Brian something, then the guy who writes the scary books and when you get done with the authors we have book editors, publishers, newspaper writers (Lola and Kam), talk show hosts (Paula) and actors who post here. JMHO is a book store owner or an editor I forgot? I myself work for a publishing house Harlequin Sepia and I own a donut shop and I used to be married to the managing editor of JET magazine. For every "reader" at Thumper's Corner theres at least three industry professionals on this board.
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 377
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 03:38 am: |
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Happy New Year!
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2681
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 11:55 am: |
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HAPPY NEW YEARS EVERYONE!
WISH YOU ALL THE BEST FOR 2007!!!
  
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6374
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:12 pm: |
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Since you are supposed to be so well-informed about everything "Enchanted" how could you not know that Thumper's Corner started out as "The Coffee Will Make You Black" on-line book club. Troy later added the "Culture, Race & Economy" feature. Nobody said that writers don't come to this site. In fact, I would imagine a lot of people from all walks of life lurk and post here. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6375
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:21 pm: |
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HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU, MZURI! |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 172
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 12:50 pm: |
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Jackie wrote:
I'm still trying to figure out what Jmho wrote ?? What the heck is he/she talking about ?
Not surprised ... you do read Zane's publications, right? Sorry, there isn't any mention of sex, body parts, etc. in my post. Try reading it -- slower this time.
Jackie wrote:
Criticism Yes...Constructive No.
Nearly 99.9% of the criticism on this board can be categorized as not constructive. BTW, what constructive criticism have you contributed to the thread? |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2682
Registered: 01-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 01:31 pm: |
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FYI JMHO - When I have criticised certain people's ability to write, no one has asked me to prove myself talented or challenged me as to what my other worldly accomplishments have been.
My (and possibly others') negative reaction to the original poster has much to do with the manner in which his criticism was worded.
And since it was such an obvious bash and the bashor seems to be a hater, then it should have been expected that he would be met with resistance.
You must take into consideration whom the bashor is bashing. Since the bashee is a millionaire (whose goal it is to to become a billionaire) then the bashor isn't given much credence, besides the fact that the grounds of his bash seem baseless. But he's entitled to his opinion as we all are.
I won't repeat the points I have already made - they can be seen above.
Now if the bashee had been just a nobody who really lacks the ability to write or edit, who hasn't had any success in the writing/publishing field, and if there were SERIOUS flaws in the excerpt that was cited - then it is unlikely that anyone would have bashed the bashor in defense of the bashee.
LOLOL!
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Jackie
Regular Poster
Username: Jackie
Post Number: 323
Registered: 04-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 02:15 pm: |
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LOL @ Mzuri.
Well, I would definitely agree with you Jmho on this statement>>>>>>>>"Nearly 99.9% of the criticism on this board can be categorized as not constructive"
I guess that's what you were trying to convey in your first response no?
Jmho: "Not surprised ... you do read Zane's publications, right? Sorry, there isn't any mention of sex, body parts, etc. in my post. Try reading it -- slower this time."
Jmho you know you just wrong for that one ! LOL ! In any event, I rarely rarely read erotica. I'd rather watch the sex, body parts, etc. on the screen(wink wink) I read mostly non-fiction.
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Ancient_reader
Newbie Poster
Username: Ancient_reader
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2006
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2007 - 04:27 pm: |
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Ms. Zane:
I wish you and all the folks here a happy 2007, especially much intelligence in neighborly conduct, good health and a lot of wealth.
I see what has been said about your writing and I also saw the comments you've made about yours truly, "Ancient Reader".
I've nothing against your work, let that be the issue of purchasers of your books. I love you and would like to see the flourishing of your work.
Aside from all of that no, I'm not gone off somewhere to talk about you at all. We spoke in its' time. The truth still remains the truth whether you sleep or awake. They say, some kind of God will be the judge. Surely I took the opportunity to sit in judgment of you first using the facts that were available. If your God reverses my decision then he and I will take up the challenge.
Do we all make mistakes? Sure we do in one instance or another. If I see anyone disparaged you, I'll come to your defense too, I'm a darn good prosecutor, one that's sure to send an adversary flying when they don't have any legs to stand on.
Remember, racism is still alive and well in the U.S. It's a good thing to keep writing and encourage others to write high quality to gain easy acceptance into the general literary market. |
Nafisa_goma
Newbie Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 36
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 01:21 pm: |
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Kola Boof asked me to post the following "portion" from an email that she wrote to ZANE this morning.
KOLA to ZANE:
I will get to business in a moment, but first, I got an email (not sure if it was from Tracy Price Thompson or Beth McFarland) telling me about people at "Thumper's Corner" being hateful and attacking your work/writing.
Zane....I just want to say from Kola (though I know you're far too successful to care what anybody thinks)...that people are jealous, resentful and fearful of a black woman who dares to acknowledge the FULL humanity of black women by allowing them to experience and own their sexuality and "womanhood" to the fullest.
History has not been kind to us. We were not the owners of our sexuality--not even in Africa, Zane!!--we were raped and mutilated by ALL men, our femininity was taken away from us, our unique type of beauty was "stolen" and "copied" but never celebrated--in the case of African women, our vaginas were infibulated "for men's" pleasure but they put the blame on GOD. Worldwide, as Black Women, we continue to be called "ugly", "inferior", "evil" and everything but...a woman.
So this is the reason that I really appreciate your books and what you stand for, Zane, because until black women are given permission to ENJOY life, to DRINK freely of life just like everybody else...they cannot blossom and be whole women.
To me--you are a kind of feminist and I have stated this a few years ago in a documentary that's on YouTube...that what Zane is doing for us "sociologically" as black women is very important, because it's never been done before and it liberates a very special part of us.
THAT is why insecure people try to aim there hostility at you for no reason whatsoever---you're successful and you're helping black women to accept themselves.
Please know, that aside from escapist entertainment, some of us are intelligent enough to understand the "social context" of why your work is revolutionary and important, and like many authors, it will be decades from now before people.....GET IT about Zane.
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 3248
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 01:32 pm: |
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More on the Gatekeepers/Intelligentsia:
If they made their assessments solely on the basis of some literary merit, one might disagree with them while respecting their conclusions.
Such is not always the case.
You see, if I make my living as, say a Robert Frost scholar, and I write books and lecture on how Robert Frost is the be all and end all in poetry, what profiteth me if other poets are exalted?
Charles Bukowski commented on this (in a poem or an interview) and said that when you challenge them you are challenging their salaries, their jobs, their girlfriends, the perks, all that.
Add to it all the natural tendency of humans to snobbery and clannishness, and you get disparagement of other artists who are not, or worse, have not thought it important, to be one of the clique.
Let Zane endow a chair for the study of erotic literature at Yale and the editing in her books will be praised as "unvarnished" and "elemental" |
Nafisa_goma
Newbie Poster
Username: Nafisa_goma
Post Number: 37
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 01:40 pm: |
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TO BLACK WOMEN,
The following is taken from Kola Boof speaking at Black Writers on Tour in 2004:
As black women we need to get back in touch with our feminine side.
Please Black American women---let the black man fight his own battles for a while.
We need to stop hiding behind the church--because a lot of us are getting on God's fucking nerves, honestly...
...don't walk out, sit your ass down!
...we need to stop hiding behind our weight and our depression, hiding behind our self-hatred and stop medicating ourselves with food and the ritual of putting each other down.
We need to stop having babies before the age of 25---and if we do have a baby, no matter what age we do it, then we should always have a baby with a socio-political strategy in mind.
As black women we need to spend more time pampering our bodies, making love--and if we can't make love--then we need to be fucking.
If no man is offering love, then have multiple boyfriends---a friend/friend, a fuck buddy, an intellectual buddy to converse with, a gay man to see movies with.
As for the man shortage--there is no man shortage. The world is full of men. I love and prefer the black man, but if he's not interested, then like I said--the world is full of men.
I am not a strong black woman, please don't call me that.
I live my life.
And I love being a woman.
I'm sick of being a mule, a servant, a reliable backbone that others can rely on.
Fuck others.
I love being a woman and I want my freedom.
It's time, goddamnit.
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Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2701
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 03:16 pm: |
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Thanks for the update
Kola Spoof!!!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 6392
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 03:52 pm: |
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LMAO. Is there no end to this drivel. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2708
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 04:27 pm: |
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"reliable backbone that others can rely on"
WTF???
Kola - dictionary.com has a thesaurus. You can find new and different words there in case if you (and your children) use up your entire vocabooberry.
You're welcome. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 173
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 06:13 pm: |
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Mzuri wrote:
FYI JMHO - When I have criticised certain people's ability to write, no one has asked me to prove myself talented or challenged me as to what my other worldly accomplishments have been.
Mzuri, I don't know which specific authors you have criticized, but that doesn't change the fact that, as expressed, in this thread, when a reader offers their criticism, of a book or any published work, the comeback is usually, can you write a better book, you must be jealous because you haven't published a book or because you haven't sold as many copies of books that I have, or you're obviously trolling since I see have less than a dozen posts on the board, etc.
Mzuri wrote:
My (and possibly others') negative reaction to the original poster has much to do with the manner in which his criticism was worded.
Well, why not overlook the tone and tenor, at least, for once, and deal with actual comments? That would advance the dialogue much more so then to try and shut down any discussion, with a trite comeback of you hatin', you're just jealous, etc. Which may all be true, but are the comments valid? Just because people don't deliver news, in a manner you find pleasing, doesn't change the validity of the news.
Mzuri wrote:
And since it was such an obvious bash and the bashor seems to be a hater,
Seems to be are the operative words here. Again, if it was (an obvious bash), why not deal with the comments instead how you perceived the comments? Using your terms, I suspect though, if you like the "bashee" (or dislike the "basher") then it's a "bash" instead of criticism. Or people see themselves as offering "criticism" and everyone else as "bashing", especially if they disagree.
Mzuri wrote:
You must take into consideration whom the bashor is bashing. Since the bashee is a millionaire (whose goal it is to become a billionaire) then the basher isn't given much credence, besides the fact that the grounds of his bash seem baseless. But he's entitled to his opinion as we all are.
So millionaire, who hopes to be a billionaire, shouldn't be or can't be criticized? Being a millionaire allows one rise above any criticism? When one criticizes a millionaire their criticisms are seen as baseless? All of this very telling, the responses to the original criticism are getting farther and farther away from the actual comments. Now we have to consider an author's supposedly net worth before offering an opinion regarding their works. Geez. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2711
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 06:40 pm: |
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JMHO - I'd like to thank you for taking the time to respond to me in such great detail, but it's really not that serious. All of your concerns have already been addressed by me so I won't repeat myself by responding to them again. But I will reiterate this one point - people with money tend to be more intelligent than people without it. Why? Because they figured out how to get some money!
Let me also say that it has been my observation (thru the posts that you have made) that you have a very bad case of being too uptight. I was that way for awhile, and it's really a drag. So here's some free advice for you:
Get over it.
Learn to take a joke.
It's a new day.
Have some fun.
Life is short.
In 100 years, no one's gonna give an ish.
But if you're still feeling snippy, come on over to the Culture forum and we can argue about something relevant.
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Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 447
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 06:57 pm: |
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LMAO!!!!
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Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 175
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:22 pm: |
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Mzuri wrote:
JMHO - I'd like to thank you for taking the time to respond to me in such great detail,
Mzuri, you are welcome.
Mzuri wrote:
but it's really not that serious
Could have fooled me, as you typed all that 'advice', in not responding to anything I wrote, which was also proceeded by a rather detailed FYI post to me. Interesting, you're giving out advice you don't seem to follow yourself.
Mzuri wrote:
come on over to the Culture forum and we can argue about something relevant.
Now that is really funny. |
Mzuri
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mzuri
Post Number: 2720
Registered: 01-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2007 - 10:57 pm: |
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Yes, we could rehash my "How to pretend you have a pretend boyfriend" thread. It would be great |
Enchanted
Regular Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 453
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 12:10 am: |
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No it wouldnt work Mzuri now that Jamal Lewis has said he dated Kola Boof and suggested that he even "hit". |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2007 - 05:17 pm: |
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well...that was not interesting...LOL! Jmho...I actually, thought your points were both insightful and funny as hell.
I haven't read any of ZANE's book. I have read about two pages of one of her books awhile back, but it didn't do anything for me. So I left it where it was....
Now, I think Latimer's post was misplaced. Since, her books, from the little that I read, and from the covers, etc....are less about craft and more content driven [though the book elitist in me would claim that craft includes content].
But, ZANE's response was also misplaced. To evaluate a person's writing on the internet, a forum of all places, and compare it to something that is suppose to be published by a person who calls herself a writer is problematic...it is a poor comparison. Dare I say sophomoric!?
ZANE has made alot of money, and that is all to the good. But her ad hominem, I think, had less merit, than Latimer's misplaced assessment of her author's verbosity, and I would add hackneyed prose.
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