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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2338
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:09 am: | 
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Often on this site people of good intention bemoan the lack of a new Baldwin or Wright--a new literary giant.
But will the Publishing world allow one?
Oh I know most of us imbibe the myth that talent and pluck overcome all--but, as John Edgar Wideman has said, in this society there are gatekeepers. They ALLOW you to do things.
He freely admits he was ALLOWED to be a Rhodes Scholar, and author, and the like.
In today's atmosphere will the gatekeepers of the Publishing world who frankly ALLOWED Wright and Baldwin to be popular (remember when they made it most of their readers were white)would ALLOW more blacks--men or women--that kind of power? That kind of access to the ear of the world?
I give you the example of Ahrundhati Roy. When she did her first novel, she was hailed and promoted by all the book keepers. I read it. It was vaguely critical of Indian society and respectful of European culture--what these people like.
But she has revealed herself as more than just a careerist. She has engaged in criticisms of the West, of America, of the deforming influences of the First World on the Third.
She has been relegated to places like Democracy Now where all those who are not grateful go. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4735
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
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Chris,
Today, I think it is easier for a Black woman to ascend to the stature of a "literary giant" than it is for a Black man. Because the literature of Black men is apt to critique White foks. While the literature of Black women is more apt to critique Black MEN. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2343
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 11:49 am: |
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What if a Black woman was critiquing white folks? (I can think of bell hooks, Julianne Malveaux, Tony Cade Bambara). You think she would get kicked to the curb, too? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4737
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:14 pm: |
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Chris,
Yes, though I think BW are not feared by Whites as Black men are. So certain things said by BW might not incite the same level of concerns and suspicions.
For example, I think a male version of Kola would probably be dead by now. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4635
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:55 pm: |
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As impotent as black men are in this society, you 2 underestimate their power. Actually, they could write whatever they want to about this white imperilisitic fascist country and create nothing more than a ripple. Letting them have their say would just be a form of humoring them. Allowing their literary rants would simply provide the powers that be with an example to point to when they extol freedom of speech. |
Snakegirl
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 91
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 07:53 am: |
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ABM SAID:
Today, I think it is easier for a Black woman to ascend to the stature of a "literary giant" than it is for a Black man. Because the literature of Black men is apt to critique White foks. While the literature of Black women is more apt to critique Black MEN.
KOLA:
The real truth ABM...is that there are not a base of "conscious black men" TODAY to support a Baldwin or a Wright.
If Marcus Garvey could exist in the 20's and Malcolm X could exist in the 60's...then a "Male Kola" could come of age right now, too....but YOUNG Black Men are not supportive of that right now....the last thing they're interested in is being "black". They are "Americans".
For Black females, however, it's a completely different picture.
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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 200
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 01:05 pm: |
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I agree with Kola. I believe young, black American men are not as angry as they were in the sixties. Even though some of us may still be poor and live in a lower class society, we look at successful black men like P.Diddy and think we all have the opportunity to achieve the same success (the false promise of capitalism).
Because we can live in suburbia, ride on the front of the bus, buy Ralph Loren at Nordstrom's, marry white women and make money we feel we have arrived or at least CAN arrive some day.
There are exceptions like Cornel West, Al Sharpton and Dyson who continue to write about black angst in the non-fiction world. I think the days of writing about black angst from a black male perspective are rare and generally not agreed upon in black America and in the mainstream. However, write a book about how a black man can obtain material wealth, and you might just have a bestseller on your hands.
As far a black literary giants, what about Edward P. Jones? Sadly, I can't think of any others in the fiction world. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4753
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 04:41 pm: |
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Kola,
I agree. However, Frederick Douglass, Langston Hughes, Ralph Ellison, Wright, Balwin, etc. enjoyed considerably MORE appreciation and support from significant factions of WHITE people than would a Black male writer of similar talents and inclinations. In fact, it was the support from White publishers and benefactors that provided prior BM authors with the resources to produce the work we now laud. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4652
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 04:54 pm: |
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The plight of the black man has been duly stated by black men who have come before. There is such a thing as gilding the lily. Anything that comes after the original voices seems destined to be repetitive. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4754
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 05:00 pm: |
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Cynique,
There are literally MILLIONS of great and interesting stories about the tragedies and triumphants of Black people - in the US, Africa, Europe and elsewhere - that have gone untold. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 4653
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 05:38 pm: |
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I'm talking about the portrayal of the black male and his status in the American scheme of things ala Ralph Ellison and Richard Wright and James Baldwin. |
Snakegirl
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 92
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 05:40 pm: |
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ABM,
There are many gifted Black male literary authors being FINANCED-Celebrated by Whites right now.
Colson Whitehead
Pervival Everett
Paul Beatty (you'll find many articles, pieces by him White magazines like "Black Book")
Caryl Philips
The difference IS...they aren't saying anything that moves BLACKS right now (mainly because they're not as HONEST about black men's own pathologies and won't explore them as a Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison did).
For instance...wouldn't you agree that right now Colson Whitehead or Everett should be writing an entire book on "colorism" or why so many black men don't want to procreate their own image????
That is what Baldwin and Ellison would be doing.
I think Walter Mosley is the best we've got.
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Batmocop
Veteran Poster
Username: Batmocop
Post Number: 72
Registered: 03-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 09:07 pm: |
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The Baldwin's and Wright's of today are not as 90 degrees out as those two were in their day. Today "Controversial" merely means boisterous. There is a real cause in this day and age to get black people to wake up and realize who they are and where they came from. The problem is that those very same Black people are not being reached! It's been said here before; we don't push the message through their music, their videos, or their clothes for them to get the message! I believe that writers can be heralded as revolutionary and as cutting edge in today’s society as long as the following is there to back the story on the evening news. We don't own the media, but we are the people! Look at Tyler Perry... We took him out of debt and put him into the limelight. (If I'm not hitting the point by using a prolific author I'm sorry) For those of you that are voracious readers, Look at Salmon Rushdie. He dared test the waters by challenging the entire Islamic faith in his book "Satanic Versus” That is what it takes to make a Richard Wright and James Baldwin type presence in the world of African American Literature today. James Baldwin wrote about being Gay in a time when almost no one even whispered that sentiment. He was controversial, and that is what it takes today, because controversy = Dolla Dolla Bills y'all...
BatMo->
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1310
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 11:00 pm: |
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What about Thomas Glave? His nonfiction and fiction is politically engaging! And he is a literary star!
I think Everett, Whitehead, Phillips and others should write about what they want.
I just read Walter Mosley's Fortunate Son ... in this he lays out the experiences of black men, using one character to explore his own and other black men's lives. |
Prettybabygirl
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Prettybabygirl
Post Number: 341
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 11:41 pm: |
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For instance...wouldn't you agree that right now Colson Whitehead or Everett should be writing an entire book on "colorism" or why so many black men don't want to procreate their own image????
Yukio, exactly how is it possible for black men to write about "the black man's" experience and omitt this issue? This is probably the defining image of black men right now and yet there are no Ellisons or Baldwins to write honestly about it from a black man's soul.
It's like you've all got your heads buried in the sand and think no one can see your asses.
I imagine it's way too painful for black men to even admit something as obvious to the world as what Kola raised. It's like confessing your inferiority and that you can't handle being black men, so you keep stacking on ways of avoiding and denying it. Maybe her sons will do it someday.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1311
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 12:20 am: |
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Prettybabygirl:
I've already said that these writers should write about what they want.
Yukio, exactly how is it possible for black men to write about "the black man's" experience and omitt this issue?
I would presume that these writers have a different concept of "the black man's experience" and the "defining image of black men."
And it is there right, as it is yours, to write about and perceive the "black man's experience," etc . . . as they choose.
It is interesting that you mention Ellison and Baldwin. I think they would make a distinction between interracial procreation as a product of love from the same a product of self-hate--distinctions that are not always apparent from these threads.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 4825
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 10:31 am: |
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Snakegirl,
I think you and I are arguing halves of a WHOLE argument.
PGB: "It's like you've all got your heads buried in the sand and think no one can see your asses."
Hahahaha!!! Funny line. And valid and relevant POINT. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 2358
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 05:11 pm: |
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Prettybabygirl:
The white publishing establishment would let black male authors write about colorism all day--that is an INTRA racial conflict and fair game.
I have been talking about the kind of challenge to the powerstructure--which colorism is not--that Wright and Baldwin put out--challenging the economic and political system and system of justice.
Get back on the subject. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1316
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 06:56 pm: |
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LOL@Get back on the subject.
ChrisHayden:
It seems that PBG, a la Kola, is arguing that to criticize colorism is to challenge the power structure, that is, cultural self-hate and genetic self-destruction.
As ABM said, it is a valid and relevant point. But there are others, such as the political and economic that often go unexamined, undertheorized, and misunderstood. But social scientist or a really good street corner intellectual, I think, is much better at addressing these issues than a fiction writers . . . this is and was the genius of Malcolm X, Garvey, and others black street corner intellecuals throughout our history . . . they would give it to the man and elitist negroes in the neighborhood after and before church and after and before work, . . . this is what Ellison talked about in Invisible Man . . . he was able to catch this in fiction, but I don't know how many others have done so . . .
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 462
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 04, 2006 - 03:04 pm: |
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Hello All,
I agree with Chris's original statement and question. Will the publishing industry, the white folks, allow for another black literary giant? But, I have another question, will the black reading audience read and support the "giant"? Or maybe its time for the black reading audience to create our own literary giant? *eyebrow raised* I am little frighten as to who those giants might be. |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 90
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 11:02 am: |
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Thumper -
You hit the nail on the head. Black readers are currently reading ghetto fiction at an amazing clip. Books with titles like "Hoezetta" and "Candy Licker" are filling the shelves of street stands and mall kiosks in all the major cities I've visited recently. That's where the money is, and that's where major publishers are going. They are trying to follow the trend set by small publishers.
If an author were to invest the years of work that it would take to produce the true literary masterpiece that would touch on even a few of the subjects raised in this thread, who would buy it? Even if that author took the risk of self-publishing that work, how would that author make money?
Black women are the buyers of black fiction. Their tastes drive the market. The rule of supply and demand applies here. Readers have to support a book of this type with their pocketbooks, not just with their mouths, in order for the trend to shift.
It's so pervasive now that major publishers are trying to catch up by labeling mysteries and thrillers as ghetto fiction. I should know, they did it with my latest book, C.R.E.A.M.
I'm on my way to do a booksigning at Noon today at the Borders Express in the Gallery Mall in Philly. I guarantee you that a prospective reader is going to walk by my table, buy a ghetto fiction book, then come back by my table and wish me luck with my work. They might even go so far as to say they support me. There is nothing more disingenuous than that. Because if they supported me -- and I say this in all honesty -- they would buy the book.
I love my readers. They support the work and they encourage others to do so as well. But if anyone on this board wants to see a change in black fiction, you have to know that it is not up to authors to make it happen. It's up to readers. Balvck readers have to do it by changing their buying patterns. I guarantee you that if readers do that, the industry will give in to readers' demands, and publish higher quality work. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 468
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 08:02 am: |
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Hello All,
Solomon: Exactly! I'm flat out saying that many in the audience talk out of both sides of their mouths; their mouths say one thing and their wallet say something else.
Maybe if you "thug it out" a bit, wear clothes 5 sizes too big, make sure your pants is hanging off your butt, put a couple of tattoos on on your arm, slap a hat on your head that's 2 sizes bigger than your head and borrow some "bling bling", and get that platinum grill on your teeth, you could probably move more of your books at your signings. *eyebrow raised*
I have a feeling that maybe a change is on its way. As you know, I've read and loved Noire's G-Spot and the latest Thug-A-Licious. Both were wonderfully written, so maybe there's hope after all. Maybe its about marketing. I don't know. The real dilemma that causes me to scratch my head is what these people consider "urban and/or hip hop" fiction. As you know, I'm straight confused. For example, your novels take place in the inner city. Your stories and characters are not sugar coated or given the gloss over treatement, but the readers don't know that because they have never read any of your novels. When I think on it, it's apparent to me that the black audience (and I hate to say it but I have to go there) upholds the "dumbing down" philosphosy. We are still doing the quiet rebellion against being smart and intelligent because these things signifies being or acting white. Could be because those of us who have so-call "arrived" tend to treat those of us that haven't "arrived" with the same hostile, disregard treatment that snooty white folks treats us. But we are cutting off our nose to spite our face. Maybe this type of attitude have spilt into our choice of fiction? From my vantage point, there is no difference in subject matter between these new "thug" books and any of Solomon's books, or books written by any of the authors such as Gary Hardwicke's or Mat Johnson's Hunting in Harlem, to just name two. The only difference between the books I mentioned and the thug books is the quality of the writing. This is evident from the very first sentence or page.
Solomon, I didn't know you have a new book out. Publicity still ain't doing their job, huh? |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 92
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 01:12 pm: |
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Thumper -
The fact that you, the moderator on AALBC.com, are telling me that you did not know I had a new book out answers the question about publicity doing their job. But you know what Thumper? I hold on to what the old folks say. What God has for me is for me. And when it's time for me to get it, I'll get it, no matter how little publicity I get.
I think you have a point, though. Maybe if I, the almost-40, married father of three, threw on a big tshirt and baggy jeans, I'd sell more books at my signings. But I feel much more comfortable in suits and ties than big Tshirts and Grillz. And to be honest, my readers kind of like me that way.
But on a serious note, I'm glad to hear you talk about our folks' aversion to intellectual prowess. I think that's a real issue. Not only in the classroom and in our professional lives. It's an issue that relates directly to the books we choose. No one wants to read a book that makes them feel stupid. It's easier to gravitate toward something written on an elementary school level if that is the quality of education you've received. Let's face it. Schools in poor black communities are still inferior to those in other communities. So even if some of our readers wanted to read something more challenging, they have not received the education that would make it possible for them to do so.
On another note, I'm glad to hear you've read Noire's G Spot an Thug-A-Licious. Maybe you can take a minute to read C.R.E.A.M. I'll have my wonderful publicist send you one. How's that? |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 93
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 10:14 pm: |
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Oh, and Thumper
You said:
"Your stories and characters are not sugar coated or given the gloss over treatement, but the readers don't know that because they have never read any of your novels."
I have to take issue with that one. Plenty of readers have read my novels. Trust me, I would not have gotten to book number five if no one was reading my work. Just thought I needed to address that one ... |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 470
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 06:39 pm: |
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Hello All,
Solomon: I stand corrected. Yeah, send me a copy of your book, I'll get to it before I start school. |
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