| Author | Message | ||
     Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3748 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
...The problem, to be clear, is not that this is meant to be is a popular book, or even that West himself could not be bothered to write it. Brother West offers much evidence that amour propre and self-knowledge are not the same thing. One tends to be in conflict with the other. A memoir will often show traces of the struggle between them. Not so here. That battle is plainly over. Self-knowledge has been taken hostage, and amour propre curdled into self-infatuation. One whole page at the start of the book reads as follows: I’m a bluesman in the life of the mind, and a jazzman in the world of ideas. -- Cornel West It will not be the reader’s last encounter with this sentiment. West repeats it at least a few dozen more times -- never with any variation or development. (Clearly this is minimalist jazz: West plays one note, then goes up half a step, then back again.) The rich history of writing by African-American intellectuals -- the essays by Richard Wright, Ralph Ellison, and Amiri Baraka, to make the list no longer than that -- has left no discernible trace on this book. Some of West's own work from the 1980s suggests he has thoughts on that tradition, as well as capacity to contribute to it. But here we are just reminded every so often that he likes to think of himself as a performer. This is not enlightening. ...If sketchy in other regards, Brother West is never anything but expansive on how Cornel West feels about Cornel West. He is deeply committed to his committed-ness, and passionately passionate about being full of passion. Various works of art, literature, music, and philosophy remind West of himself. He finds Augustinian humility to be deeply meaningful. This is mentioned in one sentence. His taste for three-piece suits is full of subtle implications that require a couple of substantial paragraphs to elucidate. As mentioned, his romantic life sounds complicated. Brother West is a reminder of Samuel Johnson’s description of remarriage as the triumph of hope over experience. One paragraph of musings following his third divorce obliged me to put the book down and think about things for a long while. Here it is: “The basic problem with my love relationships with women is that my standards are so high -- and they apply equally to both of us. I seek full-blast mutual intensity, fully fledged mutual acceptance, full-blown mutual flourishing, and fully felt peace and joy with each other. This requires a level of physical attraction, personal adoration, and moral admiration that is hard to find. And it shares a depth of trust and openness for a genuine soul-sharing with a mutual respect for a calling to each other and to others. Does such a woman exist for me? Only God knows and I eagerly await this divine unfolding. Like Heathcliff and Catherine’s relationship in Emily Bronte’s remarkable novel Wuthering Heights or Franz Schubert’s tempestuous piano Sonata No. 21 in B flat (D.960) I will not let life or death stand in the way of this sublime and funky love that I crave!” No doubt this is meant to be inspirational. It is at any rate exemplary. Rendered more or less speechless, I pointed the passage out to my wife. She looked it over and said, “Any woman who reads this needs to run in the opposite direction when she sees him coming.” Returning to the book, I found, just a few pages later, that West was getting divorced for a fourth time. Seldom does reader response yield results that prove so empirically verifiable.... Full article: http://www.insidehighered.com/views/mclemee/mclemee267 | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2465 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello Yvettep, thanks for sharing that. I didn't read the link (yet) and I don't know if I will. I have a few problems with that piece, so I have to find a purpose to continue. First, it's my belief, that the author of that "review" missed the point of... "I’m a bluesman in the life of the mind, and a jazzman in the world of ideas. -- Cornel West" Also, his analogy to Samuel Johnson was based on a premise that Mr. Johnson had done something wrong by voicing "his" emotions/feeling/thoughts on love and it's seemingly elusiveness to "him". Had I agreed with the authors opinions/sentiments of Mr. Johnson, implied or not, the quilt by association ploy is a turn off to me. It never works with me. What the hell is this: "His taste for three-piece suits is full of subtle implications that require a couple of substantial paragraphs to elucidate" My question is.... AND? And what is the vague hater,(his self) trying to say. See, that type of "subtle" BS makes me think, HE THINKS, all brown eyes are sleep. Btw, I doubt this fellow knows anything about Jazz.... or Bluesmen. His words speaks so loudly, I sho' heard what he said! He may have talked about it or even written about it, but I doubt it's in his heart. It's gotta be his shoes or his nose that's turned up in the air. WTH, he showed it to his wife and she said... I say, give me a freakin' break. When he turned into Columbo, I was done with his ass. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3749 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
What the hell is this: "His taste for three-piece suits is full of subtle implications that require a couple of substantial paragraphs to elucidate" You've taken that out of context. The author is implying that "important" topics are dealt with by West quickly and with little depth, while "unimportant" things (like his taste in suits) are explored in great depth. I'm with you, though, Carey in that I liked the line "I’m a bluesman in the life of the mind, and a jazzman in the world of ideas." To get that line you have to get the distinction between blues and jazz. Guess the reviewer, however, wished West would have riffed off of that idea a little bit more. Curious: As a relationship commentator yourself, what did you think of West's assessment of his desired "love relationships"? | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2468 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
"You've taken that out of context. The author is implying that "important" topics are dealt with by West quickly and with little depth, while "unimportant" things (like his taste in suits) are explored in great depth" Okay, I can feel that. I did say "what the hell was that"... now I know :-). I'll have to give a little thought on you last question. I know you have something on your mind, so show me yours while I work on mine. But, maybe I missed something and that's why you asked the question. Let me go back and look... one mo gin. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2469 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
YEP! I missed it. They were Cornell's words (on love/relationships). Okay, put a red line through my analogy mess. Teacher forever ;-) | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2470 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, you had to know, that wouldn't take long. MY GAWD! “The basic problem with my love relationships with women is that my standards are so high -- and they apply equally to both of us. I seek full-blast mutual intensity, fully fledged mutual acceptance, full-blown mutual flourishing, and fully felt peace and joy with each other. This requires a level of physical attraction, personal adoration, and moral admiration that is hard to find. And it shares a depth of trust and openness for a genuine soul-sharing with a mutual respect for a calling to each other and to others. Does such a woman exist for me? Only God knows and I eagerly await this divine unfolding. Like Heathcliff and Catherine’s relationship in Emily Bronte’s remarkable novel Wuthering Heights or Franz Schubert’s tempestuous piano Sonata No. 21 in B flat (D.960) I will not let life or death stand in the way of this sublime and funky love that I crave!” Now, I am not the one to playa hate but it appears ol'boy is on a fools errand. And any woman that gets in his web is possibly a fool. See, that would depend on "her" motives. She could be singing the song of Bill Withers. And I am not talking about "when I wake up to the morning sun and sunlight hit my eyes". No, not that one. First, but definitely not last, I had a hard time with the connection of these to sentences..... "This requires a level of physical attraction, personal adoration, and moral admiration that is hard to find. And it shares a depth of trust and openness for a genuine soul-sharing with a mutual respect for a calling to each other and to others. Let me continue and maybe I can answer of few of MR. West's questions *smirK* Mr. West: "Does such a woman exist for me?" Ahh,Mr. West, hell no, my 3 piece wearing brotha. You're talking about a machine with no feelings. Well, at least none of her own chosing Mr West: "Only God knows and I eagerly await this divine unfolding" Ah Mr. West, are you waiting on god or The Wizard Of Oz. See, I don't debate the bible but I have a sneaky hunch that even God can't fill that wish list. I mean, there's no wiggle room. But the following may also be a problem: Mr. West: "This requires a level of physical attraction and they apply equally to both of us" ah, hey buddy, you, Mr. West, you're not Denzel. Curious:[Carey] As a relationship commentator yourself, what did you think of West's assessment of his desired "love relationships"? Well Yvettep, now you know. His list is like asking Nels and seniorsailer to get along. It ain't gonna happen. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3750 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Ah Mr. West, are you waiting on god or The Wizard Of Oz. LOLOLOLOL! | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14389 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
Cornel West needs to get his ego in check. He doesn't bring enough to the table to make such extravagant demands of a woman. For some one whose scraggly looks can best be described as weazel-like, he should be grateful for any woman who can just glean some meaning from his jazzy gibberish which is more about style than substance. With what West has going for him, his mind is doomed to stay in the blues mode. Great intellect is not a substitute for sensual virility; it is a complement to it. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2471 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
But you womwn will have to tell me if this is true. An old playah told me any fool can jumped up and down (if you know what i mean), so it's about capturing the woman's mind. Maybe Ol'playah Cornell is from that school of thought? He does have game. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14390 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
West's record speaks for itself. If he had so much game, he wouldn't be getting divorces. We have to assumee he wasn't having the effect on his mates that he wanted to. He obviously wasn't intriuging enough to get inside their heads and captivate their minds. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 8374 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
West is out of gas. Happens to everybody sooner or later. He ought to sit back and put out obscure textbooks on Greek philosophers that are largely ghost written by his academic assistants like everybody else. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 8375 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: |
If he had so much game, he wouldn't be getting divorces. (Nowadays a man like this cannot be married. Item: An Uncle of mine, now in his 70's came from a family of 19. His dad worked--but most Fridays after getting paid he would go out partying and drinking and gambling and likely as not show up some time Sunday morning with no paycheck. His long suffering wife would get up and fix him breakfast. They'd go to church and start all over again the next week. Item: My dad tells me many stories of going to visit an aunt--who had about 13 children. Likely as not when they got to her house her husband would be all dressed up, waiting on the streetcar to take him downtown to go dancing. Item: Need I say more? That was in the "good ole days" when you had all these wonderful "two parent families". The man would gamble, screw, beat the shit out of the wife and kids and if she complained everybody would tell her to shut her yap and suck it up--this is the way it is. West is out on the road,lecturing, meeting fascinating women who are ready willing and able to jump in the sack with him at the blink of an eye. No woman is willing to put up with this anymore, so nobody can have no kind of game. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2472 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
"(Nowadays a man like this cannot be married" I think you have something. Imo, Cornell is NOT trying to be married for life. Like Tiger, the world is their Oyster. Say what you want about both men, they do have power. When I say "game", which is made to be sold and not told, Cornell is the epitone of that. Are you kidding me, a lot of his zeal is running his mouth. Now THAT'S game. But see, some negroes think they have game but... It has a smell/a blind man can see it/before it leaves their brain cells Cornell has huge game. Well, most women can't understand what he's saying, so he's in there. Like Chris implied, he doesn't even have to set a trap, the game comes to him. Yep, he's gonna clock his rewards even if he looks like a monkey. Sure, after reading the outline of his "desired" woman, some are going to break brush, but many will gladly fill out an application. Pimpology 101 Phrase: "excuse me baby, I don't have time to talk, I'm checkin' traps" | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14393 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I find it interesting that men give Cornel all these props when it comes to his effect on women. However, what men call "game" and what women call "game" may not be the same thing, and if a woman doesn't think you have "game" then you don't make the cut. West may attract groupies, and skanks because he is famous and rich. But he may not be able to maintain the interest of a woman who, herself, has game, - who is attractive, sexy, fascinating and intelligent. He is not somebody who exudes sex appeal and his self-absorption and vaunted intellectual prowess could cannot make up for this. He is, after all, a middle aged man who who was disagnosed with prostate cancer. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2473 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well, my old wise one. You've said a mouth full. But game is what game do. Behind ever corner, there's a special kind of fool. Even sexy, fascinating and intelligent ones. Those that think they are all of that, are the easiest to catch. One just plays into all that fantasy about themselves. I'll take the lady with the skinny legs, even if "she" thinks they are sexy and fat and lead to a nice plump ass... and they don't. That's game, and some womwn soop it up like gravy. Some women need a biscuit to make them feel whole. Yep, they desire certain men, that others believe do not have sex appeal. Sexy is what sexy do. Sexy doesn't have a face or a body type. I know plenty of ho's that make more money than the prettiest of pretty, and at first glance, the average person wouldn't take them to a dog fight. Sexy, and attractive is not about "Pretty Woman" and Richard Gere. That's movie B.S. Ain't no shame in a "real" pretty woman's game. See, you're learning a little game today, although you weren't looking for it *lol*. Now, a fine cultured woman like you would never fall for the Hokie Doke? But, what's in your wallet? Dang it, today I ive been dropping free game... and that ain't cool. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14394 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Oh puleeze. One man's game is another woman's amusement. Any woman who can't see through school boy flattery deserves what she gets. Which is probably a broken down ol fool thinkin he's a playa. And who said anything about sexy being synonymous with being pretty? I didn't. I ain't out there in the mix any more, but if I was, what I'd be on the look-out for would be a genuine, up-front, well-versed guy with great bedroom skills. Not some ol jive nigga talkin a lotta smack. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2474 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
"Not some ol jive nigga talkin a lotta smack" Oh my, you do have game. I'm scared of you. "One man's game is another woman's amusement" There it is! "use me to do the things I do, because I sho'em using you to do the thangs your do" | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 8376 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
West may attract groupies, and skanks because he is famous and rich. But he may not be able to maintain the interest of a woman who, herself, has game, - who is attractive, sexy, fascinating and intelligent (Cynique, one of our duties as elders is to quit lying to the young uns. Monogamy is just not in the human make up. Nobody is attractive, sexy fascinating and intelligent at 6:00 am with stank breath and slobber coming out of their mouth or any of the many situations where humanity comes to the fore. One time I got to meet a very famous black woman--actress, fashion model, pin up girl--who will remain nameless cuz I don't want her suing me. It was just after she came in from a work out. She smelled like the locker room of the Green Bay Packers after a game with the Bears. I was horrified that the woman of my dreams was funky just like any other woman--for a minute I considered becoming celibate--It was never the same with her but that very evening I had forgot about it, salivating over some "fine looking" thang--forgetting all that I was salivating over was probably Max Factor, low lighting,Wonder bra and the six or seven drinks I had in me. All this romantic crap is just bullshit. Society makes it up because if the truth were told the population would quickly go down to zero in one or two generations. By the time everybody finds out it is too late--there is a bun in the oven. Even when you find it out with one woman, a few drinks an you forget about it and fall for it with another one. Oh, a man might make a woman his main woman, might set up household with her and bring her the money and have his children with her--but never screw anyone else? Puh-lease! Add in today's "liberated" ideas and no fault divorce, and what you got is NOBODY got game. I think it was Katherine Hepburn--a "powerful desriable intelligent" woman who laid up under a very married Spenser Tracy for years just like a hopeless skank--that said it best. "Men and women shouldn't live together. They should just visit each other from time to time." If anybody says this is a recipe for disaster I think you're right, but what are you gonna do? | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3752 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
West may attract groupies, and skanks because he is famous and rich. But he may not be able to maintain the interest of a woman who, herself, has game, - who is attractive, sexy, fascinating and intelligent. Agree, Cynique. And I would add a special category of groupies: "academic groupies." When a lot of these big stars in academia travel to academic conferences, guest and visiting lecture positions, presentations, etc they attract a following of young (and not so young) undergrads, grad students, fellow profs and others. That may come as something of a surprise to anyone who thinks that only movie stars and athletes have "groupies." I think intellectual infatuation/lust can be as short-lived and (ultimately) false as physical infatuation/lust. It is fine to want one, the other or both. But certainly at West's age he should know the realities of one or the other developing into long-term, marriage-worthy relationships. It sounds to me like he is just making excuses for his frequent marriages and divorces. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14396 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Exactly, Yvette. The only reason I was making reference to "Idealize" standards was because Cornel West was the one who was demanding these things in a woman, so Chrishayden needs to direct his words to West not me. As for monogamy, I am not naive enough to think that the "dog demon" has been exorcized from the male psyche. But it's always dangerous to generalize. There are still men around who, having gotten all of the play out of their system, have married and settled down, and although they may lust in their hearts, remain true to the woman sleeping next to them who has somehow managed to hold their interest. | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 2041 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Fascinating. I actually had dinner, along with about 8 other people with Cornel last night. He has consistently been one the most gracious and friendly people I've encountered (I'm being completely serious). Cornel is the kind of people that wil sign 300 books, talk to everyone, make them feel good and stick around shooting photos with anyone that wants one. Indeed he is prodigiously friendly. I do not "know" Cornell but I've been around him enough to bristle at the phrase "weasel-like" to describe him or "skank" to describe a female that might be attracted to him. As a human being Cornel is certainly not perfect. I too wonder how Cornel, or anyone for that matter can get into a situation in which 4 marriages fail. True he did have prostrate cancer. When he was 48 years old he was given 3 months to live. Last night Dr. Cornell spoke to a congregation in Perth Amboy, NJ. He spoke about his multiple marriages. He still hopes to get married again. He did not, understandably, go into specifics but he seemed much more sensitive about his relationships than the isolated paragraph above seems to imply. He said his ex-wives are remarkable women. Cornel seems to be as demanding of himself as he is of his spouse. | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2477 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Troy, I am glad you tired up that mess. Yvettep lured us down a road of distruction ;-) Just because Cornell has been divorced doesn't men he's a man without principles. I don't know why we attached those name to him. Wait, here's how we got there... "West's record speaks for itself. If he had so much game, he wouldn't be getting DIVORCES. We have to assumee he wasn't having the effect on his mates that he wanted to. He obviously wasn't intriuging enough to get inside their heads and captivate their minds. Shame on you Cynique. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14397 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Gimme a frickin break, Carey. You're so full of BS, I can smell you through my computer. YOU were the one who lowered the bar and injected "game" and "pimpology" into this conversation. And West was the one who voiced his impossibly high standards when it comes to women. It was you and Chrishayden who noted that West probably had his pick of female admirers during the course of his lecture tours. The writer of the article was who wrote the less than stellar opinion that his detractors in the academic world have of Cornel West. I never said Cornel West didn't have principles, I said that considering his marital track record, whether he had "game" or not was questionable and, more importantly, I didnt give credibility to the concept of "game". Yes, Troy, I referred to the bearded, afro-wearing, lean faced, long-toothed West as "weasel-like" in appearance. What can I say? This is how he strikes me. I observered that famous men do attract groupies and skanks, and I see no reason to retract this. I also adjudged West to be self-absorbed, reaching my conclusion because he tends to rhapsodize himself with metaphors. I admit to, and stand by these remarks. I will simply add that I am happy that this god-fearing man triumphed over his battle with cancer. I have no doubt that the extraordinary West is charming, accomodating, and brilliant, but on the issue in question, his own words are what indict him. He longs for a soul mate who transcends the mudane even as he acknowledges that his ex-wives were remarkable women. The good professor is also "wishy-washy". | ||
| Carey AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 2478 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, you're right Cynique, Chris Hayden did it :-) | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 8386 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
" I am not naive enough to think that the "dog demon" has been exorcized from the male psyche." (Are you still trying to perpetrate the myth of the virginal, saintly female who is totally monogamous? Puh-leese. Sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander. A hard Johnson has no conscience and neither does a sizzling clam.) "because Cornel West was the one who was demanding these things in a woman" (That's all part of his pimp game. I bet he'd shaft a snake in a sandstorm) "He still hopes to get married again." (Three time loser. Three strikes and you're out. The next one he gets may cut or shoot him. He should quit while he's ahead) "You're so full of BS, I can smell you through my computer". (ROTFLMBAO--are those the right letters? Y'all need to pray for me) "I never said Cornel West didn't have principles" (Like most of us he honors them in the breach) "Yes, Troy, I referred to the bearded, afro-wearing, lean faced, long-toothed West as "weasel-like" in appearance." (Cynique, I was worried that if something happened to me there would be nobody to carry on here. My fears have been most assuredly assuaged. This leads me to a fascinating colloquy. Suppose West was not a distinguished professor, but Oshay, a jack leg shade tree mechanic who hung on the corner with me and Carey. Would he get as many women as he does now?) | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 14403 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Why do you keep insisting that I think women are innocent and monogamous, Chrishayden?? Did I ever say this?? Women have monogamy forced on them by Society's double standard but, vamps that they are, many find a way to have affairs or branch out. | ||
| Yvettep AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 3756 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Troy, I have no doubt that Dr. West is all that you say. I heard him speak when I was a grad student and he was, indeed, charming, witty, generous with his time, etc. I also noted that many of the females of my peers were quite attracted to him: "intellectual crushes" are an interesting phenomenon. I would never call these women "skanks" like some people (  ), but some did strike me as groupie-like in nature, for example choosing talks and conferences to attend based in part on whether he'd be speaking. I do not think West's thoughts on marriage are as much about "principles" as they are about someone not becoming wiser with age and experience. If he were a woman expressing such views I think many of us would be quick to tease him about having unrealistic fairy tale fantasies. I really do not know what his deeper thoughts are about this, and perhaps the fuller context of the remarks in his books makes it more clear. (And of course in talks he may elaborate more on what he meant.) But it sounds to me that he (a) is saying those things just as a kind of excuse, rationalization, or justification for his multiple divorces, (b) is just running game, trying to attract women who have such unrealistic views of marriage and so will think they've found a like-minded mate, or (c) is incredibly naive, despite his great intellect and years of experience. Of course there are other possibilities. For example, the excerpt is a quite clever and interesting bit of writing. Maybe he is just trying to provide an interesting read. BTW, I plan to read the book myself, regardless of what my fellow academics might think. ;) | ||
| Troy AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Troy Post Number: 2048 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yeah Yvettep, you are probably right; though option C if true would indicate some serious mental defect. Lets us know what you think of the book and the man when your are done. |
