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Tonya
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Post Number: 5187
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 11:42 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Shades of black

If the man who could be our first black president has a white mother, and yet Toni Morrison says we already elected one in Bill Clinton, then what's black and white is pretty gray.

By ERIC DEGGANS
Published April 15, 2007

Since before he started a historic run for the presidency, Barack Obama has told the world he considers himself a black man.

It's not the kind of statement most men of color have to bother making. But because his mother is white and his father is Kenyan, Obama has spent time explaining a choice some find unusual - embracing a culture that neither of his parents actually grew up in.

What is really astonishing is what happened next: Some black folks didn't believe him.

"When black Americans refer to Obama as 'one of us,' I do not know what they are talking about," wrote noted cultural critic Stanley Crouch, who is black, last year. "While he has experienced some light version of typical racial stereotypes, he cannot claim those problems as his own."

In a January column for Salon magazine, Debra J. Dickerson, who is also black, was more blunt: "Barack Obama would be the great black hope in the next presidential race - if he were actually black."

Which prompts a compelling question, as Obama visits the Tampa Bay area today for an Ybor City fundraiser: What really does determine your racial identity in today's society? And if a guy with caramel-colored skin, an African father and a black wife isn't considered authentically African-American, then who is?

One man who might be considered an authority, longtime black civil rights activist and former presidential candidate Al Sharpton, thinks all the Obama-doubting is an awkward way of asking a more complex question: Can black people trust him to champion their interests effectively?

"Those who are ambivalent and nonsupportive as of yet ... it's not about his genealogy, it's about his policies," said Sharpton, calling from Miami. "It's a clumsy way some of us black people are asking about this: What is it that you're going to represent?"

But Julian Bond, chairman of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, isn't so sure.

"If that's what people mean, then they ought to say so ... instead of saying that because his father's an African he's lacking in some kind of racial authenticity," said Bond. "Whether or not he's committed to the same values we expect is going to be determined by what he says now and what he's done in the past."

Complicating things further for Obama on questions of race is his unique political situation.

In the past, significant black politicians mostly have come from two camps: the nation's civil rights/protest establishment and the Republican Party. Whether you're Sharpton, Condoleezza Rice or Colin Powell, voters often guess where you stand on issues important to people of color based on those associations.

But Obama hasn't risen through any of those ranks. And while his message of racial inclusion seems to reach white supporters in ways that more confrontational words do not - he has said "rightly or wrongly, white guilt has largely exhausted itself in America" - Obama's evenhandedness muddies another huge characteristic black people use to judge the racial identity of politicians.

Namely, aggressive advocacy for issues considered important to black people.

Ask Sharpton whether Obama is too easy on white people and he says: "I've heard that from some black people; I don't know if that's fair or not.

"I think what I resent is there being a different rule for civil rights advocates," added Sharpton, irritated that some view his hesitancy as a political attack. "I want to see public policy statements ... on what kind of Justice Department we should have, police brutality, questions of corporate discrimination. ... Why would anybody assume I'm going to endorse anybody without knowing the answers to those questions?"

While some may view race identity as something handed down through families, experts agree that race is a delicate balance between how society perceives you and how you perceive yourself.

Tiger Woods, for example, learned the folly of trying to carve a new race identity for himself without society's permission - once insisting on Oprah Winfrey's popular talk show that he was not African-American but "Cablinasian," a mix of Caucasian, black, Dutch, Native American and Thai (both Woods' parents are from mixed-race heritage).

But Woods quickly found trouble: Some black people assumed he was denigrating their culture by refusing to be a part of it, and white sports commentators didn't seem to know how to handle a guy who didn't want to be the first black golf legend.

"He came out too early on. ... America wasn't ready to take it," said Carmen Van Kerckhove, a New Yorker of Flemish-Belgian and Chinese heritage who serves as president of the antiracism training company New Demographic.

"I think mixed-race people exist in this space where their legitimacy is constantly questioned," said Van Kerckhove, who recalled a discussion with friends who insisted mixed-race people must "choose a side" when defining their racial identity. "Different communities try to claim you, depending on how well you're doing at that point in your life."

Woods, it seems, has learned his lesson: He rarely talks openly about race anymore. But Obama, in seeking to become the nation's first black president, doesn't have that luxury.

And when he does talk about race issues, his style is striking: He isn't confrontational. He doesn't shame people. He isn't particularly aggressive.

In other words, he isn't angry.

Is less guilt good?

"What's unique about Barack Obama is that ... because he doesn't come from the traditional civil rights background, he does not make white people feel guilty," said Sylvester Monroe, a former correspondent for Time magazine who serves as senior editor of the black-focused magazine Ebony.

Still, Monroe expects there will come a point when traditional black voters will not allow Obama to walk that fine tightrope between the aggressive advocacy they expect and the inclusive consensus-building that draws nonblack support.

Sooner or later, they will ask: How can a guy who talks about consensus and a rising tide lifting all boats stand up to those who want to kill affirmative action and reduce Equal Employment Opportunity law enforcement?

"If Obama does well, it takes a lot of juice from guys who have made a life of fighting for civil rights," Monroe said. "Some of the people in that tradition say, if you don't keep white people's feet to the fire, they can act like everything's fine. (Soon, traditional black voters will say) you're black, we're black, you're our guy. You have to represent."

It's that kind of talk that worries Syracuse University professor Elisabeth Lasch-Quinn. Author of a 2001 book called Race Experts: How Racial Etiquette, Sensitivity Training, and New Age Therapy Hijacked the Civil Rights Revolution, Lasch-Quinn resists what she calls the "myth about what blackness is."

"I'm talking about the idea that there's one black response to things ... the idea that it is basically rage," said Lasch-Quinn, who is white. "Part of the question about whether Obama is black enough seems to be asking, 'Is he angry enough? Is he devoted to the idea that black people are separate enough?' It's a notion of uniformity - that there's only one black identity, and it's one of rage."

It seems possible this dynamic is reciprocal; that black people have learned through experience that rage and confrontation are often the surest way to see their concerns addressed by the white mainstream.

Definitions of blackness can be inclusive; Toni Morrison called Bill Clinton America's first black president in a New Yorker essay for his stands on race issues and persecution by conservatives.

And Lasch-Quinn's vision of minimizing race differences may sound to some black people suspiciously like a call to play down their culture in favor of white, mainstream values.

But Lasch-Quinn blames modern race experts for developing a vision of blackness that is separatist and divisive. "(It includes the message that) every black person is totally responsible for their community and what happens in it ... there's this image of someone who always has a bone to pick, doesn't believe in reconciliation," she said. "If an issue of race comes up in an interracial setting, the white people will often yield to the most aggressive position. ... (But) why should it be that people have this idea that there's just one black opinion?"

Black like him

Back in the late 1940s, aspiring art student Peter B. Hammond decided to try an experiment.

A free-thinking 19-year-old blond, blue-eyed white man, he was traveling through South Florida telling people he was black - referencing the old "one- drop rule" of segregated America that said if you have even one drop of black blood in your heritage, you were considered black.

Though he didn't look the least bit African-American, everyone who heard this fib believed it - even black people.

Their reasoning: Being black was so tough in a segregated South, who would claim to be a Negro who wasn't?

"I was thinking this whole system of segregation was pretty idiotic, and that kind of confirmed it for me," said Hammond, now 78, who was inspired to become an anthropologist after experiencing the crushing racism of Florida in the 1940s. "Race is a social construct. ... (And) it may defy any type of scientific definition."

Now teaching at the University of California, Los Angeles, Hammond said black people who remember those times might have difficulty accepting a politician like Obama - whose family may never have faced such circumstances - claiming to be black.

"They may feel it's as if he's taking advantage of being black without paying his dues," the professor said. "Black folks might be saying, 'Here's this guy who is presenting himself as a brother, but he was raised in Indonesia.' ... (And) on the other hand, white people may say he's not a real black person. ... You can pat yourself on the back because you voted for a black person, but (think) 'Thank God he's not really black.' "

Van Kerckhove, Hammond and other experts agree there is a long list of characteristics others often use to judge someone else's racial identity. And these details can be crucial cues for others - sometimes given more weight than what the person actually says about his or her own racial identity.

Some characteristics: physical appearance/genealogy; language (do you have an accent or speak in a vernacular?); race of your romantic partner; race of your friends (an area which is often segregated in people's lives); music you enjoy; your history of activism, if any; your name; where you go to church (churches are still highly segregated); your assertion of culture at your job.

For example, Halle Berry self-identifies as a black woman and reinforces that assertion by dating and marrying black men, playing black characters in film and TV and talking about race issues from a black person's perspective publicly.

Nicole Richie also self-identifies as a black woman, because she was raised by two black parents, pop star Lionel Richie and his ex-wife Brenda. But she was adopted and actually has Hispanic, black Creole and Caucasian heritage, she has blond hair, has often dated white men and her onetime best friend, Paris Hilton, is a white woman.

To the world, she is likely considered a white woman, no matter what she says about her own heritage.

"We need to be honest as a society about how we let people decide who they are," said Jonathan Holloway, a professor of history and African-American studies at Yale University who is black but was raised by two black parents light-skinned enough that some people assumed his mother was white.

"I have no problem with the fact that (Obama) decided to be African-American ... the honesty of it shows how complex this issue is in society," Holloway said. "Blackness is a slippery kind of thing. ... It depends on where you are, how you speak and what group is judging you. My politics are - a lot of them have been socially determined, because I identify as black very consciously."

Unite and conquer?

Of course, there are some who say the whole question of Obama's blackness is a political smokescreen - allowing some black leaders and other political opponents to hold back without looking selfish or racist. Once the nation gets to know Obama better, some say, questions about his allegiance to black culture will fade.

"People like Sharpton, whose profession is being black, they have a dilemma because they are supposed to choose the black person over the white woman, but (Obama) is not beholden to them," said Monroe Anderson, who is black. A columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times, he also writes the Obama Watch blog for the Web site of Ebony and Jet magazines.

But Sharpton is quick to say that expecting him to support Obama simply because he is black also sounds racist. And a growing controversy over the candidate's slow reaction to racist statements by radio/TV shock jock Don Imus - Obama didn't issue a comment criticizing Imus until CBS Radio and NBC News had already suspended him - may lend credence to those who wonder if he can effectively address racism when necessary.

And activists such as the NAACP's Bond resist the idea that black politicians who handle race issues like Obama does present a new way of talking about race and culture in America.

"(Obama's) message has more wide appeal to whites than say the Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Julian Bond message ... (because) many people wrongly believe that the three of us are divisive and that he is a healer," said Bond. "I think that's probably true about him, but it may not be true about us."

Times researcher Angie Drobnic Holan contributed to this report. Eric Deggans can be reached at (727) 893-8521 or deggans@sptimes.com Got a comment? See his blog at blogs.tampabay.com/media.


How do we decide blackness?

On the cover


Using the criteria cited by experts, Eric Deggans outlined the cues signaling race identity for several notable people. Comparing the characteristics that signal blackness to those that don't provides a little perspective into how we all perceive race.1. Eminem: Problack characteristics: Music - Pioneer in rap music, which is rooted in black culture; Friends - Counts major black artists such as Dr. Dre as mentors. Nonblack characteristics: Genealogy - Born to two white parents; Romance - Ex-wife is white; Personal image - Self-identifies as a white male.Conclusion: Familiarity with black culture aside, Eminem is white.2. Bill Clinton: Problack characteristics: Friends - Counts prominent black people such as Toni Morrison as friends; Profession - fought to improve affirmative action and oppose racism. Nonblack characteristics: Genealogy - Born to two white parents; Romance - His wife is white; Personal image - Self-identifies as a white male.Conclusion: Morrison's anointing as the first black president notwithstanding, Clinton is a white male.3. Halle Berry: Problack characteristics: Romance - Dates, has married black men; Personal image - Self-identifies as black. Nonblack characteristics: Genealogy - Raised by white mother.Conclusion: Berry is considered a black female.4. Nicole Richie: Problack characteristics: Genealogy - Raised by two adoptive black parents; Personal image - Self-identifies as black woman. Nonblack characteristics: Appearance - Has blond hair, light eyes (apparently of white, black Creole and Mexican ancestry); Best friend - Paris Hilton, a white woman.Conclusion: Richie is considered a white female.On the WebWhat does the phrase "African-American" mean - and to whom? Go to links.tampabay.com

2007 All Rights Reserved St. Petersburg Times
490 First Avenue South St. Petersburg, FL 33701 727-893-8111

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/04/15/Opinion/Shades_of_black.shtml
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Enchanted
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Posted on Sunday, April 15, 2007 - 11:55 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

QUOTE RENATA:BULL-FUCKING-SHYT.

Every president before had a white mother (and father) and it hadn't been a problem before. No president before ever faced problems during segregation, and it hasn't been a problem before.

NOW, suddenly NIG-GERS think it's IMPORTANT that the president have had suffered during segregation and have a black mother to be a worthy president?

It's never been important before....FUK THAT SHYT.

Hell, he did marry a black woman....will they enforce that as a rule for the other candidates?

He isn't black enough....Well, point me out the candidate that IS.

DUMB NIG-GERS.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 12:30 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And I still don't get it. They pointed out his mother's race because it's an article about how we determine color, and it seems benign to me:


If the man who could be our first black president has a white mother, and yet Toni Morrison says we already elected one in Bill Clinton, then what's black and white is pretty gray.


Unless she's calling most Black folks dumb nig-gers because they want to know whether Obama is going to represent the values they hold dear. And if that's the case, how are THEY the nig-gers??
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Enchanted
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 12:33 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dont know but I guess Renata mean Obama is blacker than Hillary and if they want black issues then he is more likly than Hillary to identify with blacks so why are blacks claiming hes not black enough to rep their issue but Hillary is? She has a white mtoher too! lol
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Renata
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 12:42 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No president before has ever represented the values they hold dear, so why is this candidate not EQUAL to the other candidates if nothing else?

What they instead say is "I'm not voting for this guy because he doesn't represent ME".....and then they vote for another guy and it isn't an issue that the particular candidate doesn't represent them.

All I'm saying is don't expect qualities in this man that you won't be expecting in other candidates.

If he's not black "ENOUGH" and hence should NOT be president....that implies that another candidate would be better in that capacity...IF THAT WERE THE ONLY CRITERIA FOR BEING A GOOD PRESIDENT.

And I'm not even going to insult you Tonya, because I KNOW you're not that stupid. You just seriously want to vote for Hilary Clinton...which is FINE. But don't use this man's "whiteness" against him, when you won't use it against any other candidate.

Tell us what they stand for, what Obama stands for that you're so against, and I may or may not consider it, but will do so FAIRLY.

But if your only argument against Obama is that he's "too white" for you, you're really not as smart as I thought you were.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:00 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enchanted,

I don't know why some Blacks are claiming he's not Black enough, Sharpton's suggestion sounds plausible. However, I do understand Black people wanting to know where he stands on Black issues. If you're thinking about voting for him cuz he's Black, and you want to see a Black man become president, then I guess it's reasonable to question whether he possesses a Blk social conscious. For some Blacks, that's what constitutes Blackness, as stated in the article.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:18 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renata, please, you're too sensitive. I'm not voting for Hilary. Nor do I need a reason to post articles about Obama, or explain my position on politics. Obama is the most popular Black man right now so there are going to be some very interesting debates that involves him and the Black community. And this is a Black board so naturally these discussions are going to come up, regardless of how I feel about a candidate. ...That shouldn't dictate what gets discussed around here anyway. And I'ma tell you what I told Enchanted. I think every Black person have the right to question where he stands on Black issues, especially if they're considering voting for him because he's Black.
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Renata
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:26 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In that case...I apologize.

I'm not voting for him because he's black. I want the best person for the job. So, if he doesn't have a lot of the "black agenda" on his own agenda that would make him....any random candidate.

But so help me god, if I find out another candidate is pushing this "not black enough" bs, I'm going to go into hyperdrive and campaign for him just to piss them off.

(I really think another candidate may be behind it, but that's just my feeling and nothing backed by proof, so, in the words of my crazy friend....."omelette" that shyt go.)

She actually spells it like that (as a joke).
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:40 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...LOL...

Well, you don't have to worry about me because I'm one of the first to accept him as a Black man. The only thing I don't like about him, so far, is his views on Black issues. ...But since hes not running for president of the NAACP that hasnt totally done him in yet. I wanna know where he stands on class issues.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 10:12 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Correction: I'm not voting for Hilary SO FAR. John Edwards is still #1 on my list but I still don't know who I'll be voting for. Reverend Al's opinion would make a difference.
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 11:03 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Renata,

Notice how some Black foks criticize Obama regarding racial matters WITHOUT ever mentioned his actual RECORD on such things.

I mean, the man's been a community activist, civil rights attorney, a IL State Senator for 6 years and a US Senator for 2 years. You'd think in all that they'd be able to refer to specific things he's actually DONE (organizations he's been involved with, foks he's defended, laws he's written and sponsored) that emphatically PROVE he does NOT support Black causes and issues.


Tonya,

This is a ridiculously tiresome thing that foks like you, Sharpton, etc. are doing. It's so intellectually dishonest.

Obviously, Sharpton is hating on Obama being is position of possibly becoming president WITHOUT being beholding to him, Jesse Jackson and the rest of the mostly obselete Civil Rights establishment.

And John Edward spent TWO years in elected office (basically using his loot and looks to scheme his way into the Senate). He did that SOLELY to position himself to be a presidential candidate. Hell. Prior to that he was shyster millionaire attorney.

Yet you think HE'S better equipped to be and is more trustworthy as president than Obama?? He's more attuned to Black and class issues than Obama who's got a lengthy, proven history of fighting for Blacks and the poor??

Give me a fuhking BREAK, already!!!
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 11:25 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm,

I'm flattered, really. But you might be reaching a little bit when you put me in the same category with our well deserving, deeply regarded, highly esteemed Black leaders. I'm just a regular person with an opinion like you.
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 11:31 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

If you want to think my equating you with Al Sharpton is meant to be a compliment, I won't stop you.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 11:45 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I won't stop you."

That's cuz you can't. :-)
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

Is this the part where you say "I know YOU are, but what am I?"?
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:03 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...I would have SWORN you'd want something dirtier than that.
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

I might. But I don't want you to get into something you can't handle.
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Ntfs_encryption
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 01:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Every president before had a white mother (and father) and it hadn't been a problem before. No president before ever faced problems during segregation, and it hasn't been a problem before.

NOW, suddenly NIG-GERS think it's IMPORTANT that the president have had suffered during segregation and have a black mother to be a worthy president?

It's never been important before....FUK THAT SHYT.

Hell, he did marry a black woman....will they enforce that as a rule for the other candidates?

He isn't black enough....Well, point me out the candidate that IS.

DUMB NIG-GERS.


Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! You are so correct but the chicken shit carping by frustrated embittered Negroes continues unabated. Its hilarious but tragic how desperate skin color crazed Negroes are so pathetically and pathologically handicapped by their race and skin color obsessions. They are morally and intellectually incapable of evaluating an individual for their accomplishments or their personal history. No, thats not good enough. To them, the core of the individuals worth and potential lies within their "skin color", not their personal being or history. Negro Nazis are the perfect complement for likes of George Rockwell, Tom Metzger and Reinhard Heydrich.

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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 02:02 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I might. But I don't want you to get into something you can't handle.

Oh, but that's what you'd be there for, my brother: to teach.

I'd like to use you (lol), wouldn't that be fun!
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 02:07 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

What would you "use" me for, babe?

To help you with your Algebra homework?
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 02:09 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where do the other candidates stand on "Black issues"?
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 02:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvettep: "Where do the other candidates stand on "Black issues"?"

Like Tonya even knows, much less GAF.

Heck. The only reason she's voting for Edwards is because she thinks he's a dreamy Blond fakewannabee White liberal.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 03:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette, I'm not the one voting for him because he's Black.

So I could give a shit where he stands on Black issues.

I already said:

He's better off NOT talking about them as far as I'm concerned.

And I was right.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 03:22 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette, I'm not the one voting for him because he's Black.

I never said that was my reason--It is not. I understand folks who are voting for him for that reason. I understand (though disapprove) of non-Blacks' who decide not to support him for that reason. What is strange to me is Black people who do not support him because he is "not Black enough."

Other candidates are "more Black" than Obama? Please, then, inform us of how so. Other candidates are not "Blacker" than him, but for them Blackness or concern with "Black issues" is not an issue? I just do not understand this double standard. Folks might have supported him but they are annoyed that some assume they will automatically do so, so for that reason they are not going to support him? Well, I cannot understand that logic either.

Just as an aside: I probably already mentioned this here, but it is interesting to follow some of the arguments about Clinton going on among some White women. There are some very revealing parallels btwn the conversations we have been having here and those.
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 03:33 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvettep,

Save yourself the migraine of trying to solve the rubic's cube of hypocrisy, duplicity and ignorance that surrounds why Black foks don't think he's Black enuff for them to vote for him.


What are the concerns of White women regarding Clinton? They don't think she qualifies as being enuff of a White woman for them to vote for her?
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Ntfs_encryption
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 03:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Save yourself the migraine of trying to solve the rubic's cube of hypocrisy, duplicity and ignorance that surrounds why Black foks don't think he's Black enuff for them to vote for him."

Bro ABM, Negroes will always have issues with the obvious and reality. Victimization, excuse making and skin color xenophobia are the tools of their trade. You should not expect anything else from them.



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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 04:06 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette, I addressed your question in my second post. I DON'T KNOW why people are saying he's not Black enough, you'll have to ask someone who's saying it I guess.


I do understand this though.

Black folks who might vote for Hilary are not voting for her because she's Black. Not Edwards for that reason either.

However, many are contemplating voting for Obama due to his Blackness so, for them, it makes sense to wanna know where he stands on Black affairs, especially since social Black consciousness, for a great many, is one of the major elements to being Black...FOR LOTS of people in the Black community.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 04:10 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abm, I'd use you as my nig-ger ho. :-)
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 04:38 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, here aare a couple of conversations going on re: CLinton in feminist circles:

http://blogher.org/node/17869: "A mass case of Stockholm Syndrome? Of Hillary Clinton, diversity fatigue, opting-out and guilt"

http://blogher.org/node/16473: "Why women undermine Hillary Clinton"

THe comments to these posts also are interesting. BTW, I had missed that Chris Rock SNL piece linked to in the first post. Again, an interesting take...
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Renata
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 04:47 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Please.....if anyone would not vote for Obama because they don't like his disinterest in black issues, in order to vote for someone else who also has no interest in black issues and doesn't even care to ever have any interest.....then those black issues can't be terribly important to them.
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Renata
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 05:00 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You people forget he's lived in this country for a while. I doubt anyone wishing to discriminate against him has stopped to asked what country his parents were from. And if he doesn't know it's like to be "black" in this country, you would think he's married to the best person to advise him.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 05:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm only answering the question of whether it's a double standard and ITS NOT if Blackness is the standard to begin with. Think about it (but take yo time lol).
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 05:51 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya: "Abm, I'd use you as my nig-ger ho."


Oh. So then you're hoping we swap roles. Dream on, nappy. Dream on.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 05:57 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you take way his Blackness, and/or his "disinterest in black issues", then its simply an even playing field. Right? OBAMA HAS MADE IT COLORBLIND. Which is perhaps a good thing.

Me - none of them have a position on black issues that I particularly like. So I'm voting on what's put in front of me. And from that I'll choose THE BEST WO/MAN. ...Because Black issues isn't a real option.
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Abm
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 05:59 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

Why is it you and other Black foks question Obama's fidelity to Blackness without ever investing time is researching his RECORD on such?


Yvettep,

At least it doesn't appear as though Hillary's not being disqualified based on her being a White woman.

But then, I could be misreading this.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 06:04 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dream on, nappy. Dream on.


ROTFLOLROTFLOL!!!

It's gonna take me awhile for a cumback - to busy laughing my ass off - but CumBACK, or be back, I shall!
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 06:08 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, he could have changed his mind since the 90s. At least it appears that way from what hes been saying (and writing) as of late.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 06:41 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll tell one thing though.

If Hilary or John Edwards ever support a term like "white guilt", and the way it's being used by the right, I'll vote against them in a nanosecond!!

They haven't though.

But Obama has.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 07:11 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvette,

Blk people are refusing to support Obama because he doesn't share the same ideology. These women on your BLOGHER site aren't voting for Hilary because she's a woman. There is no parallel. Unless your claiming that Blacks are being cxatty and ignorant, just because they don't agree with the man's philosophy! LOL I think now you're reaching for straws.


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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 08:13 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blk people are refusing to support Obama because he doesn't share the same ideology.

Again, then what "pro-Black" (or whatever) ideolology are these folks finding consonant in the other candidates' positions?

Yes, there is a lot of "reaching for straws" involved in this debate. But not, I do not think, by me.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 08:48 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

ABM, it appears that at least some of the critique against Clinton in some circles is being characterized as women being harder on her because she is a woman--In other words, (some) women "expecting more" of and from her because she is female, causing a double standard that is not seen as being applied to the male candidates. That is one parallel I see in the Black folks/Obama case.

Another critique of the anti-Clinton female stance seems to involve the opinion that her great intelligence and accomplishments makes other women appear less able, or that they belie the continuing toll of sexism in America. Again, something I sense in some of the critique against Obama.

Of course, for any woman, then, it becomes difficult to be pro-someone other than Clinton without being branded by other women as being anti-Clinton. (For example, I personally thought the Stockholm Syndrome analogy was going too far.) That is also something I think is similar to the Black folks/Obama case.

But what I keep pushing for are informed debates among Blacks about why they do not support his candidacy and why they do support others'. I think we should all be very involved in the political process--more than just waiting around to see who the Dems (or the Repubs) nominate. This is the power time in politics--not once the candidates are decided. So my deal is, whoever you support, do more than talk about it. That is the only way that we will not be taken for granted.

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Yvettep
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 08:49 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(Sorry for the soap box moment. LOL)
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 09:55 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Again, then what "pro-Black" (or whatever) ideolology are these folks finding consonant in the other candidates' positions?"

Again, none of the other candidates are looking for the "vote for me because I'm Black" vote. So they don't have to prove their "Blackness" by revealing a keen awareness of the Black experience and/or a Black social conscious.

And I'm not reaching for anything, dear. I'm simply repeating what the people are saying. Not that they have to explain shit to anybody. I'm just trying not to let you (or anyone) misrepresent, misstate or trivialize what theyre saying.
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Tonya
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Posted on Monday, April 16, 2007 - 10:14 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And since you (probably) don't respect their "pro-Black (or whatever) ideololology"--(LOL)--perhaps YOU'RE the one with the problem. Not them.
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:20 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

What is "pro-Black (or whatever) ideology"?

Since Obama is a politician, shouldn't his relative allegance to such "ideology" be judged based on his RECORD (via laws he's written/sponsored, his voting record, causes he's advocated) as a political figure?

Are you Obama critics willing to argue that Clinton, Edwards and/or some of the rest of the other presidential candidates have better records of advocacy of "pro-Black (or whatever) ideololology" than Obama?

Or does NOT being Black exempt Clinton, Edwards and/or some of the rest of the other presidential candidates from having to b qualify as being "pro-Black..."?
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:28 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

What I've read Obama say is that "White guilt" that enable much of the positive things that happened during the Civil Rights Movement is waning. And that TRUE. That started with Nixon, really caught fire with Reagan and has continued since.

That's why Welfare Reform occurred.

That's why facets of Affirmative Action have been degraded.

And much of the other social programming that was perceived to benefit Blacks have been defunded.

Should Obama pretend that that has/is NOT happening?
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:42 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvettep,

I guess I can see the parallels of Obama and Clinton being held to higher standards, though at least foks don't question whether Clinton is an authentic WHITE woman.

It's as if Black consider Obama to be some sorta stealth candidate that's been created to trick Black foks into voting for him.

I guess I could understand this concern if the man hand no lengthy, substantive RECORD as a political figure (like, btw, John Edwards). But it continues to amaze me how foks are so concerned about Obama's fidelity to Black foks WITHOUT factoring his RECORD into the discussion.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:53 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya, I did not mean you as far as the "reaching" comment. I think your views have contributed to some interesting and productive conversations here. I do think folks who are twisting themselves up trying to define Obama's Blackness are doing a little reaching. But actually--that is OK. It is very exciting that we can be having these kinds of discussions instead of having the political process be the same ole-same ole.

ABM, I understand that if there is one thing many Blacks are concerned with it is fidelity and loyalty. But I also think we have at times failed to consider the "Big Picture" because we are so focused on some public figure's presumed allegiance to the Black Cause. (As if there is one "black cause"...)

Anyone who deals with a diverse group of people on a day to day basis on their job knows that it takes more than in-your-face Blackness to get anything done. That is a reality. That is what it will take for anyone in a leadership position to actually effectively lead. I would think that the "Old Guard" would be excited to see that type of quality in the new generation of Black leaders and not be threatened by it.

Or perhaps I should say "I would hope..." At any rate, like I said: THis is all very exciting stuff. Whatever else happens it is getting a lot of people involved in the political process in new ways.
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Yvettep
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:55 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

respect their "pro-Black (or whatever) ideololology

I;d like to get a better idea of exactly what their view of this is--especially when they claim Obama's record does not reflect it. Either I do not fully comprehend what it is these folks want, or they are not aware of what this man has done and fought for in his organizing and political career.
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 08:48 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yvettep,

Bottomline, some Black foks don't think (via his having a White mother) Obama's Black enuff. And because he's NOT a product of and beholding to the Civil Rights crowd (Jesse, Sharpton, etc.), they fear his ascendency will result in their being marginalized to the point of utter irrelevancy.

Obama's actual record, how he's actually conducted his life is irrelevant to them because they're NOT particularly interested in what's TRUE. If anything, those only BOOST Obama's Black credibility.


And, yes, anyone who's in ANYWAY involved in trying to get something done in a country that is +87% NON-BLACK know goodndayamwell you can hardly get jacksh*t done always poppin' that Down With Honky!!! stuff.
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Enchanted
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 09:08 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I disagree with the white mother part Abm from what I hear its that he's African a foreigner and he never speaks race politics. A few said his wife is too strong as well.
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Abm
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 10:28 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Enchanted: I disagree with the white mother part Abm from what I hear its that he's African a foreigner and he never speaks race politics.

I've heard Obama say that when he's been racially profiled by cops, at stores, etc., no one stopped to ask him whether or not his ancestors were American slaves. I've heard him say he's especially concerned about the condition of poor Black children because when he looks at them sees his own daughters. And as best I can tell, that sentiment has been reflected in his politics and policies.

It sounds like to me the man definitely has SOME identification with what it means to be Black in this country.

I mean, really, how far must the man go?

Yes. He does NOT have blood relatives who struggled during Jim Crow, were sharecroppers, etc. But then Condi Rice, Armstrong Williams and Clarence Thomas have that in their background. What good is that doing MOST Black foks?


Enchanted: "A few said his wife is too strong as well."

Now see THAT find particularly interesting. Because who was MORE intrusive of and involved in her husband's political life than Hillary Clinton. Hell. Bill himself alluded to their having a co-presidency. She even leverage it into a US Senate seat.

But because the sistas not shrinking violet she's "too strong"? Were's the skrong Black sista set when we need'em?
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Tonya
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Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 06:17 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

¬Like I said reaching for straws.


"What is 'pro-Black (or whatever) ideology'?"

I have no idea. That's Yvette's term. Ask her.

"I guess I can see the parallels of Obama and Clinton being held to higher standards, though at least foks don't question whether Clinton is an authentic WHITE woman."

Oh, yeah? Why is she all of a sudden a southern born again Christian? Why is Mitt Romney lying about how many birds he's shot? Why did John Kerry drag a dead goose and a shot gun through the mud several years ago? C'mon man, look around you. YOU GOTTA KNOW MORE THAT JUST THEIR RECORD (which is the SAME for all the candidates btw).

"I guess I could understand this concern if the man hand no lengthy, substantive RECORD as a political figure (like, btw, John Edwards)."

HE DOESN'Tnot in the U.S. senate. And if you're going go all the way back to the 9o's, why not juxtapose some of what he did back then with some of the rhetoric he's kicking today. That might be interesting.

I agree though that his record in the senate is no different from Hilary and John Edwards', except his is shorter.

Btw, let's get something straight. Blacks haven't sided with any of the other candidates. That's not what I read in this article or what I'm hearing from liberal Blacks and it's definitely NOT what this article is about.

I am the only liberal here to state what my position is so far (because I don't give a shit about some boot licking Uncle Tom scared as hell 'safe' niggers).
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Abm
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:21 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya: "HE DOESN'Tnot in the U.S. senate. And if you're going go all the way back to the 9o's, why not juxtapose some of what he did back then with some of the rhetoric he's kicking today."

Since that's such a great concern of yours, why don't YOU do that? Why don't you stop (dishonestly) referring to something to which you've REPEATEDLY offered NO examples and proof?
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Tonya
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dont see anything dishonest in saying that his position today on Black issues seems to have changed from his position in the 90s. And I do not think I need to 'prove' this. Its all over the internet, Google his activities from the 90s and juxtapose it with the rhetoric hes kicking today. ...and let the people decide for themselves.


And let's be clear once more. (To me) the people aren't holding this against him. They are probably not going to give him MORE credit than the other Lib. candidates. Hes not getting credit just for being Black. (Which is the way it should be (especially in this case) anyway, so I applaud the people for doing the fair, intelligent thing.) But I trust that they will not hold this against him. He'll just have to earn his votes; he won't be getting them simply for being Black. IMO it's the way it should've been in the first place (esp. in this case).
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Abm
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

It's all over the Internet. Yet you refuse to cite 1 or 2 instances were Obama has clearly contradicted himself?

*eyesrolling*

Foks can vote for whom they want to. But cut the crap, already.

Most of Obama's detractors don't know jacksh*t about what he did or what he's currently doing. They're all either playing dumb race/color games or are too dumb to see clear of bvllshyt the Al Sharptons of the world are spreading everywhere.

And, btw, if we're going to talk about foks backtracking or reneging on their prior positions, hows about BOTH Hillary Clinton and John Edwards providing the initial approval and funding for our current fiasco in Iraq?

I defy you, Sharpton or any other Obama basher to cite a bigger instance of hypocrisy or duplicity than that which those 2 have committed with THAT particular issue.
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Tonya
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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I defy you, Sharpton or any other Obama basher to cite a bigger instance of hypocrisy or duplicity than that which those 2 have committed with THAT particular issue.

I won't speak for Al Sharpton and others but I was never the one TRYING to hammer stuff inside of people's head. Since the end of January, it's been YOU and the OBAMA NAZI's who've been TRYING to intimidate people into voting for you're man. LOL! It's a good thing he didn't have y'all working on his campaign 'cause it's quite clear that this strategy seem to have failed, hence your furor.
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Abm
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Username: Abm

Post Number: 9253
Registered: 04-2004

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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:03 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tonya,

All I've done here is rebut frivolous, irrelevant, unsubstantial critiques of Obama. I've pointed out the myriad hypocrisies and doublestandards that have been asserted against him.

And YOU'RE the one who are CONSTANTLY creating threads about Obama. And almost all of those threads criticize or indict him of something that has NOTHING to do with whether or not he'd be an effective president.
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Tonya
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Username: Tonya

Post Number: 5254
Registered: 07-2006

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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:40 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You tried to rebut what you FELT were frivolous, irrelevant, unsubstantial critiques of Obama. And we all know you've been way too sensitive on this subject.

And I'll restate what I told Reneta:

Obama is the most popular Black man right now so there are going to be some very interesting debates that involves him and the Black community. And this is a Black board so naturally these discussions are going to come up, regardless of how I feel about a candidate. ...This shouldn't dictate what gets discussed around here anyway.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya

Post Number: 5256
Registered: 07-2006

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Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

...in other words there are going to be discussions and articles that may not have ANYTHING to do with his bid for presidency...but is relevant to the Black community and issues regarding us, like color.

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Nels
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Username: Nels

Post Number: 830
Registered: 07-2005

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Posted on Friday, April 20, 2007 - 01:00 am:   Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blackness is irrelevant here. Who's going to be elected in 2008 and keep your butts out of the unemployment line "is".

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